Cindy Nicholson (2:16)

I am great. Kay, thanks so much. Good to be here.

Dr. Kate Campbell (2:19)

Cindy is also known as the online course Whisperer which is so cool. I love that title.

Cindy Nicholson (2:26)

It was funny when I first somebody recommended that I choose the course Whisperer as a title. And I was a bit sheepish at first, but I. It's grown on me. And I swear everybody makes a comment about the name.

Dr. Kate Campbell (2:37)

So it's catchy.

Katie Lemieux (2:41)

Do I hear a little Canadian in there?

Cindy Nicholson (2:43)

I heard, well, you might, but it doesn't take too long for an American to recognize my Canadian accent. I live just outside of Toronto.

Katie Lemieux (2:51)

Very nice. And it's interesting because as we got on. And so for those of you who aren't really kind of online entrepreneurs or video people. So we get on and I'm like, looking at Cindy and I'm like, your lighting is amazing. And I'm thinking, like, maybe she has this great natural lighting. No, she has this beautiful lighting that makes her illuminate. And so if you're watching this on video, you can, like, see the difference. So look at our picture and then look at Cindy's and see how lighting makes a difference. So as an online entrepreneur, when you are doing video, lighting is important. So I know we're probably not going to get into that today, but that's just a little side side note.

Dr. Kate Campbell (3:21)

It is definitely important. We will take the time to set those things up when we're doing certain videos. But for the podcast recordings, we've never really set up the lighting. And our.

Katie Lemieux (3:28)

No, we haven't.

Dr. Kate Campbell (3:29)

I'm in the process of moving the group practice to a new group practice location. I'm just ironing out the details with our lease and whatnot.

Cindy Nicholson (3:37)

And we're going to have an actual.

Dr. Kate Campbell (3:37)

Media room with all the lighting set up so we don't have to take it down and put it back up. So if you guys are watching our podcast episode in about six months, you'll probably notice the difference with our lighting. Yay.

Katie Lemieux (3:47)

So before we get started, last week we interviewed. Oh, ourselves. No, we didn't interview ourselves. Our podcast, podcast 103 was all about pulling back the curtain. Private practice, marketing networks. So for those of you who do know us, Kate and I are geeks for marketing. And as we had said, it's exciting having Sydney on here today talking about an online course. So we have been in the works really for a long time creating a marketing E course for you guys. So in this podcast, we talk about how our story and how it came to be, some of the struggles therapists have with marketing, but we actually walk you through all the different models. Modules. Excuse me, not models, modules. Modules of the e course. So check that out. And then if you're ready to dive in or wanting to sign up and join us for the course or coaching or whatever it is that you fancy are different types of models. With that, we definitely welcome you to do that. So we look forward to connecting with you and helping you build your practice.

Dr. Kate Campbell (4:46)

In the meantime, let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsor message for today's podcast, which is Therapy Notes. When it comes to keeping your practice organized, you want to have software that's not only simple, but definitely the best. We highly recommend Therapy Notes. We actually had Brad Pliner on our podcast for episode 54, almost 50 episodes ago. That's so crazy because it feels like just yesterday it was so awesome having Brad on and we really got an in depth conversation into the importance of having an ehr, emr, whatever you want to call it. And so if you want to really dive deep into that, definitely check out that episode 54 to hear more about Brad and what they do at TherapyNotes. And at TherapyNotes, their platform really lets you manage your notes, your claims, your scheduling and more. And they also offer unlimited phone and email support, which is always a plus when you have a question. They're always there to help. So get two free months of TherapyNotes today. Just use the promo code. Private practice. Well, PPS as in private Practice Startup when you sign up for a free trial and you'll be able to find that link on our therapy on our show Notes.

Katie Lemieux (5:53)

We're getting tongue tied because it is.

Dr. Kate Campbell (5:54)

Our fourth recording of the day and I know we said this. If you're actually like binging on our podcast episodes, you'll hear that we mentioned in the last three episodes that we had kind of a crazy morning. This morning I woke up to my car being broken into and had to make a police report and spent a while with the police out front doing the handprints and fingerprints on the car. Not mine, but like the cars, you.

Katie Lemieux (6:15)

Know, but it might be yours depending on.

Dr. Kate Campbell (6:17)

I hope it's. I hope they can use them, but who knows whose it is. So it's. Yeah. So bear with us. We might get a little tongue tied. It's all good. But we are super excited to be here and excited to have Cindy with us today. I loved our conversation when we connected a little while ago, Cindy. And I love what you offer. So tell us a little bit about what inspired you to be the course whisperer.

Cindy Nicholson (6:38)

Well, it's interesting because I didn't start out doing what I'm doing. I Kind of fell upon it by accident. I thought I was going to build a business in nutrition online. And so I was taking courses online courses to study how to build a course, a nutrition business online. And as I was taking these courses, I was often working with people that were in the courses. And what I kept finding time and time again is people were coming to me for advice on how to articulate their message. So they were creating some sort of course or some sort of handout that they were looking for advice on. And I have a background in teaching and corporate training, so I've done tons of training and course design and everything like that. And I remember one time in particular I was on the phone with another person taking the course and I was helping her with her course on accounting and I spent an hour with her helping her figure out how to design and organize her course. And I got off the phone and I was like, wow, that was fun. So I really enjoyed helping her out with it. And number two, I was actually had a skill set here that I kind of didn't think I had or wasn't aware that I had until I encountered people that didn't have the skill set. So because I've had such an extensive background in education, I thought, is there a way that I can help these entrepreneurs who have such an important message to share, but kind of struggle with how to get it out there in a way that's compelling and engaging for any learners that if I could help them get that message out there, it could be really a win win scenario because it's something I love to do and something that I think entrepreneurs, some entrepreneurs need help with.

Katie Lemieux (8:22)

I love the stories when people just kind of fall into their natural talents. I know that happened for me in doing couples therapy. So we have a very good relationship with our friends Chris and Laurie Cambis of national marriage seminars. And when Kate and I and this is kind of actually how Kate and I realized we work really well together. We were the president and vice president of Barbs association for Marriage and Family Therapy and we hosted, we co hosted a national marriage seminars training. And so I actually attended the training because, you know, I was the vice president and needed to go and I like really loved couples and then I took nine different couples trainings in less than two years. And I'm just super passionate about it.

Dr. Kate Campbell (8:58)

So who would have ever thought I didn't realize that was how you fell in love with couples work? That that is.

Katie Lemieux (9:03)

I learned something new about me after a decade.

Cindy Nicholson (9:05)

I know.

Dr. Kate Campbell (9:06)

And I was right alongside you that whole process. I didn't realize that you weren't already working with couples.

Katie Lemieux (9:10)

I was, but I was making a mess because I didn't know what I was doing. And I realized like I needed some training here, so. But very cool. So share with us. So I love your story about how you kind of got started and I'm curious as to what, what types of courses you've helped people create.

Cindy Nicholson (9:25)

Well, I've kind of run the gamut because really what I do, I can work with anybody with any type of background. It's actually good that I have a variety. But I've worked with other health practitioners in terms of one of them I've worked with, he's a cardiologist and he's building a course on how to apply functional medicine to healing various heart ailments. I also just finished working with another doctor who is an surgeon, but she's actually creating a program on how to bring intuitive healing into your practice. And so it's a bit of a stretch for her to go this area, but she's. How do we, how did we help other people who have this intuitive sense bring it into their medical practice? I've also worked with real estate investors, I've worked with lawyers, I've worked with money managers. So I've worked with all sorts of different people and they've usually been relatively established in their business and they know that they want something more because just like your audience, they work one on one with clients. So there's only so far that you can take that. So then often people are looking, well, how can I scale more? And often an online course is appropriate for people. And so it's people who are then looking out and saying, how can I share my message beyond just the one on one clients that I have?

Dr. Kate Campbell (10:50)

So for clinicians who are listening, who are in that place of realizing, okay, we're in a service industry, which means it's dollars per hours, you're trading your time for money and there's only a certain amount of time in the day. And they really want to expand and diversify their specializations and have multiple streams of revenue. I mean, with the passive income term, it's not such passive. You know, there's a lot of work. But then on the flip side, once you wake up and you know there's money in your bank account and you didn't even, you made it while you're sleeping, it's a pretty cool thing. So where would you recommend that they actually start if they have the idea of I want to Take what I do and turn it into an online course.

Cindy Nicholson (11:30)

Yeah. Often I find entrepreneurs are feeling like they're either getting a lot of questions from their audience that they're having to repeat over and over again, or they're getting to the point where they don't. They need to scale, otherwise they're stuck in terms of dealing with the one on one. So really, what I recommend in terms of if you're starting to feel like you need something else, you're thinking, you know, you have an inkling that an online course is a good fit for your business, is to start with validating the idea. So there's a number of ways that you can validate your online course. If you already have an existing client base, I recommend going to them and asking them, you know, what is it that they're struggling with the most that you can help them with? And so once they kind of really get a validation, because one of the biggest fears as to when people creating online courses is they're worried it's not going to sell. Right. You got to put all of this work and time and effort into creating it. But what if it doesn't sell? This first step of validating, like making sure it is a need of your audience, is such an important step, not only to get confirmation that, yes, this is what they need, but you also gather really, really valuable intel as you're going through that process that it can almost help you write the course itself, because they're going to tell you exactly what they want to hear. So that's really the first step, is if you have an idea, go to your audience and find out if it is in fact that is needed out there.

Katie Lemieux (12:59)

Go ahead.

Dr. Kate Campbell (13:00)

I was just gonna say, doesn't that validate our validation process of what we've been going through the past year and a half?

Katie Lemieux (13:05)

It's so good to feel validated, especially for breakfast, since we're doing it all the time and it is cool. And, you know, as Keaton I've obviously spent a lot of time, energy and money really learning about marketing and online courses and things like that. And it's like when I call them the aha, dumb moments, because it's like, it's so obvious. It's like, well, duh, why didn't I just ask? And you know, we always talk about how therapists make the best marketers because we're always asking questions. We know how to empathize, we know how to validate. And so isn't it easy just to ask your audience, you know, like, duh yeah.

Cindy Nicholson (13:36)

And you don't want to make any assumptions because again, not only do you want people to buy your course, they want to go through your course and you want them to have the transformation from taking your course. So it's so, so important to really understand your audience and what their needs are so that you can, you can address them in your course for sure.

Dr. Kate Campbell (13:53)

So once you're clear on what your audience is actually needing, you validated this, you've tested it, and what would the next step be?

Cindy Nicholson (14:02)

What I recommend is really, once you've gathered all of that intel, is become super, super clear on an outcome for your course. So what is your course? What does tomorrow look like for your audience once they have gone through your course? What is it today and what is it going to be tomorrow? And rather than just, you know, a course on family therapy, say, for example, what is it? What is the result going to be? What is the outcome? So be super clear as to what that outcome is going to be. And this is a benefit both from your clients taking the course because they come to you and they've spent money because they want a result. Right? They have some sort of pain point and they bought this course because by the end they want that pain to be gone. So you want to be super clear what that outcome is so that they have that transformation. Plus, it's also helpful from a marketing standpoint, if they're going online searching for a. Because they've got this pain point, once they see the name of your course and it's got the resolution to the pain that they have, then that helps them pull out their wallets and pay for the course. So once you've gathered all the intel, really hone in on what the particular outcome is going to be for your course. And I will say that less is more in terms of creating a course. You don't, again, knowing your audience, you don't necessarily want a huge course that solves all world problems, because chances are your audience doesn't have all of those pain points. You want to really hone in on what the specific pain point is, because that's the client that's going to take your course, buy your course, take your course and finish your course.

Katie Lemieux (15:45)

And interesting as you talk about, like asking your clients what they struggle with, your clients, the ones that you have worked with, one on one or in group or something like that, have already had some of those results. And so again, you're really listening for what are the results, the common results that they have produced. So that's Another little, just kind of little ninja tip as we talk about and like making it simple. And I remember, Cindy, I love how you're like referencing, like, keeping things simple. I remember because as we've made our own progression for the private practice startup, like the copywriting for us, it used to be like long, bulky paragraphs and it's. And I'm always looking at, how can I chop this down? How can I chop this down and get to the point? And it is definitely a practice, but when things are simple, it's easily digestible. People want to take the next step. And it's just so, so important. One of the things that we talk about in our course is websites, right? And so I've had. We have our niece for the summer, and I was going online looking for swimming lessons. And obviously we look at websites differently now, right. So I go on and I'm looking for the schedule and the pricing, and I get to this scheduling place and it has things blocked out, half crossed out, blue B3G red, blah, blah, blah. And I got like, I was like, where's the pricing?

Cindy Nicholson (16:55)

Oh, never mind.

Katie Lemieux (16:56)

And I click. And I was like, oh, my God. This is what people experience when you know, things aren't clear and simple.

Dr. Kate Campbell (17:02)

Right.

Katie Lemieux (17:02)

And so talking in those simple results, things that they'll get, the tangible, the feelings that they're gonna get is so essential.

Dr. Kate Campbell (17:09)

If you confuse, you lose.

Katie Lemieux (17:10)

If you confuse, you lose. Yeah, that's a key original.

Cindy Nicholson (17:15)

Yeah. It's a challenge for people when they're creating online courses too, because they want to shower their clients with all of the information that they know because they feel that they're going to get. Get more value or that the clients will get more value if they give them everything that they know. And it's a constant back and forth with my clients just trying to pull them back from giving them too much. You want to give them the minimum to get them to solve that pain point. And that is what the client is looking for. They're not looking for all of the 101 Ways to Solve the problem. They're looking for the quickest way to get there. And so it's a common struggle and it's. It's a common challenge for people who are writing courses for the first time is they often offer too much information as opposed to just giving them the details. I always say if you want to give like extra stuff, if you're like, but, oh, it would be nice if they knew this, or be nice if they knew this, then include it as a bonus and then it could be something that they can, you know, that helps them sell the course, but it doesn't distract from the main solution that you're trying to get for them.

Dr. Kate Campbell (18:20)

People love bonuses, they love surprises, and that's a great way of delivering that extra content.

Katie Lemieux (18:25)

And again, so validating to us, because that's what we've been doing, so we're on the right track. Awesome.

Dr. Kate Campbell (18:31)

So after we have validating your topic and then determining your outcome and the results that people are going to have, what do people focus on next?

Cindy Nicholson (18:39)

Well, at this point, now that you know the destination that you're wanting to get the client to get to you, really, then create their journey. What are the steps that they're going to get from today through to tomorrow? And really, so this is now creating the course outline. You know, what are all of the different modules and the lessons within those modules? And at first it's going. You will have no idea because there's just so much information. You'll be like, oh, they need to know this, they need to know this. So what I recommend in terms of creating this course outline is to, is to brainstorm first. So get out of everything out of your head that will. What do they need to know and be able to do in order to get this transformation or this result that you have from the course outcome? So brainstorm, get everything out, whether it's online or sticky notes or however you want to do it. Just brainstorm, dump everything out. And as you're doing that, when you do that brainstorming session, you'll find that you'll end up with certain buckets, buckets that can be grouped together. And depending on the content that you want to cover, you'll find you'll end up with maybe three, four, five different buckets that these main topics will come out of this whole brainstorming session. So you kind of want to batch them together and this will kind of be your beginning of your course outline. Those buckets can now become your modules. You know, the journey that you're going to take to get them to their transformation. And then once you have those modules, you can create, well, what those modules then become their own outcome in and of itself. So you want to get them to this final destination, but you want them to achieve mini milestones along the way, right? You want to have them little successes along the way. So those little buckets will have their own mini outcome associated with it. And then it's just a matter of what do they need to be able to do to get that outcome. So it's constantly focusing on what do they need to know and what do they need to be able to do. When you're developing content, when you're developing this course outline, and it's really focused on the results, it's just fun to.

Katie Lemieux (20:50)

Listen to you talk because like we said, we're right in the middle of all of this, right? And so our last little mini retreat, we were away for like two and a half days. And if you guys could have. We should have done video of this aspect. If you guys could have seen us. And it took us the two and a half days just to create the outline and get everything narrowed out. Like, one of us would be working on the computer, the other ones pacing back and forth, thinking, you know, and then we're, like, laying down on the ground, looking at the ceiling, and then we're walking on the beach and then taking a break for some wine and then eating some junk food. And, you know, it's a very interesting process, and so it's just fun to hear you talk about it and then just like, remembering our little journey. And we're going to dive now into the. In our course, we're going to be diving into the content. So that's exciting.

Dr. Kate Campbell (21:30)

This weekend we're actually going away for the E retreat again. The E course retreat. So we'll be diving into the content creation.

Narrator (21:35)

And.

Dr. Kate Campbell (21:36)

And we're really excited about that part because it was kind of hard to, like, take a step back and focus on the name, the tagline, the marketing messages.

Katie Lemieux (21:43)

And then I wanted to get into the information, and Kate kept saying, nope, nope, let's stick to the outline.

Cindy Nicholson (21:47)

That's good, that's good. And people don't spend enough time there. And you almost need to put it together and then give it some time and then come back to it. It's like building a house. You want to have the foundation super solid because then there's a lot less headaches down the road. So if you spend the time at the beginning making sure that that's why the whole validation is important. If you spend the time at the upfront making sure that foundation is solid, it's going to. There's going to be a lot fewer edits, there's going to be a lot fewer revisions or a lot fewer people complaining about the course. So it's wise to spend the time doing that, for sure.

Dr. Kate Campbell (22:23)

So we have the validation, we have the outcome and the results, and then we have brainstorming the content and then what's next?

Cindy Nicholson (22:31)

Creating the course outline. And one of the things, and I don't see this as much when I taking other people's courses is this course outline is a journey that you're taking your clients on. And what I recommend is once you have that outline, those steps that you're going to be taking your clients through, create a visual representation of that journey. And I don't know if that makes sense, but just what you want, your learners want to. Your learners need to know where they are at in the process. It really helps ground them. It helps them have the peace of mind that they know where they are and what's going on in the course. So create some sort of visual representation of that journey. So if this is step one, show them the journey that they'll go through in each of your modules so that they know exactly where they are until they get to the final destination. So, you know, once you have that outline, create that visual representation of your journey. And this is. This is your expertise turned in. You're productizing your expertise. So this is your system, this is your process. And you mark it as such because, you know, anyone can make a course on xyz, but they can't make it according to your process or who you are or based on your expertise. So this visual representation is your signature system or your process of how you. How you achieve the pain point. So I recommend focusing on or spending some time creating that visual representation because this is now the branding as part of your course.

Katie Lemieux (24:09)

And just to clarify, Sydney, is this like the results that they're gonna have at each module?

Cindy Nicholson (24:15)

I would just. Even the steps. So this is whatever you're just talking about the steps. Okay. So again, they can see where. That they're making their way through the course. They know exactly where they are before they learn a new step in the course. And it again provides a visual representation of your signature system.

Dr. Kate Campbell (24:34)

So you're at module three out of eight, kind of a thing like tracking their progress and being able to help them see how they're progressing in the course and then how to know where they are towards completion.

Katie Lemieux (24:45)

Adding that in. Thank you.

Cindy Nicholson (24:48)

And again, I like to try and think of, you know, the client experience as I'm creating my courses. So, you know, your clients aren't necessarily sitting down and kind of going end to end for your courses. They may have had an a week in between. They may have had people coming in and interrupting them. By giving them this visual representation in the course, it sets them to know where they're at because they may be like, oh, my gosh I can't even remember where I am. So some of them may not even go back to the course because they're just so. They feel they're so far behind, so constantly kind of, you know, you're just kind of holding their hand as you go through the course so that they know exactly what's going on and what they're going to learn next.

Dr. Kate Campbell (25:27)

Very cool.

Katie Lemieux (25:28)

So what would you say is the most important thing that you want Startup Nation to take away from your message today, Cindy?

Cindy Nicholson (25:35)

Well, I think that everyone has something they can teach. So it's a matter of now thinking about what it is is your own signature system or process and how can you share it with the world? And so everyone has their own skill set, they have their own expertise, their zone of genius. And it's just a matter of how do you take that zone of genius and put it into a signature system? And I think everybody has their own process, their own unique expertise that they can share with the world. And so whether it's an online course or other means to do it, I think that there's a lot of opportunity out there to share that.

Katie Lemieux (26:14)

Very cool. And obviously our audience, they're therapists already. And like I have said and so many times, we've found that they have other really cool niches or talents and things like that. And so, you know, I love to, like I said in the beginning, is really looking at this podcast from like two places, right? So if you are a therapist and you're not thinking about online yet, you're. This is a great data gathering place for you, right? Like, just start to get more in tune to what are your clients struggling with, you know, what are the results that they're getting and things like that. But if you are in a different place, where you are looking for different types of income or multiple streams, diversifying, really diving into this and knowing that you have a really cool expertise and it might be therapy or it might be be something else, or it might be a combination of the two. So we really appreciate having you on the podcast today and perfect timing for us right as we get ready for our second little podcast mini retreat. And what's really cool is that your podcast is right next to our next week's podcast, which is with Christy Westerfeld, who talks about legal documents you need for an online business. So, you know, here Cindy is here talking about how to create and start an online business online course. And then Christy's gonna make sure that you protect your legal rights, especially if you're a therapist and you're doing something kind of like psychoed. So if you're like doing, you know, you're a relationship therapist, but now you want to do like a relationship coaching e course. So really getting clear on the legal rights and risks and things like that and making sure that you're protecting both. So you'll want to listen next week to that episode and that is episode 105.

Dr. Kate Campbell (27:49)

Cindy, it's been so awesome to hear your perspective about how to build an online course and really the step by step process, what people can do to really get started and delve into this because it can be such an overwhelming process. And I know you have a really special giveaway for our audience for Startup Nation Superheroes. So what is that?

Cindy Nicholson (28:07)

Well, thank you, Kate. There's a couple of resources if your audience is interested in getting a little bit more information. I have a creating your course outline tip sheet. So I went through the steps of how to do that pretty quickly. But if you want a tip sheet of step by step what to do, your audience can go to thecoursewhisperer.com startup and they can access that resource. And also on that same page is a mini course on how to validate your course idea. And so we talked about at the beginning about how important that was. And I've created a little mini course that walks your audience through how to actually validate what steps do they go through in order to make sure that they're going to create a course that their clients will love. And, and that's again at the website thecoursewhisperer Co theprivatepracticestartup.

Dr. Kate Campbell (28:58)

Awesome. And as therapists, we all know how important validation is just as important in your online course creation. And if you guys are scrambling to write down that link, the URL, don't worry, we got you covered. Just head over to PrivatePracticesStartup.com and look for our episode page, which was episode 104. And there you'll have the exact link links to be able to take advantage of those opportunities.

Katie Lemieux (29:21)

So Startup Nation, we wanted to thank you for joining us today and we hope you guys have an awesome, inspired day. Don't forget to hang out with us on Facebook and you know, if you haven't yet already and you really feel inspired to do, we would just kind of love to know your feedback on the podcast and feel free to write, write a review in itunes or Google review or Facebook. We always love your love and this continues to allow us to inspire you from start to mastery because we are inspired by you. So have an amazing day. Cindy, thank you again for joining us and everybody take care.

Dr. Kate Campbell (29:52)

See you next time. Startup Nation.

Narrator (30:00)

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

Cindy Nicholson (30:12)

SA.