A (2:22)

Welcome back, welcome back.

B (2:23)

We're excited to have you. So like I said, our guest today is Melody Wilding, back for round two. The title of today's show is Outsmarting Imposter. Syndrome. But before we jump into the topic, let's just hear from our sponsor for today.

A (2:37)

What's up, Melody? Good to see you here.

C (2:39)

Hi. Thank you for having me back.

A (2:41)

Yeah. So we'll take a quick break from our sponsor. Today's sponsor is actually therapynotes. And when it comes to having a thriving practice, you wanna make sure that you have systems in place from the get go. And TherapyNotes provides an awesome EHR platform and their platform will help you keep your practice organized. And it's a really simple software that's very user friendly. It lets you manage notes, billing, claims, scheduling and more. And they also offer unlimited phone and email support. So if you ever have a question or a tech issue, they're there to help you out. So use the link that we will put in our show notes for you guys to make it super easy breezy for two free months of therapy notes. And if you want, if you want to hear a little bit more about TherapyNotes and what they offer, you can actually listen to our podcast, episode 54 with Brad Pleiner. And there we dive into all of the unique aspects about TherapyNotes. So make sure to use the code PPS, as in private practice startup when you click the link for those two months for free. So without further ado, let's dive into. What is it? Outsmarting. I knew it was some sort of externalized way of outsmarting imposter syndrome. So let's dive in.

C (3:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm excited.

B (3:59)

So I guess I'm curious as how did you get started speaking on this topic? Like, what's the story behind that for you?

C (4:07)

Great question. I think it goes all the way back to a very young age actually. And it kind of originates with my name. So my name is Melody, but I don't play a musical instrument, I don't sing. And so that was really the first question that people would ask me when they would meet me is, oh, so you know, what's your musical talent? And I would have to say, like, oh, I don't have any. And just really feeling like a fake or a fraud from a very early age because of that. But I say that sort of jokingly, really it came about because it was imposter syndrome. Is looking back, something that I have struggled with from, again, from schooling? I think it's something that becomes ingrained in us from our schooling system or socialized into us as women in particular. But it really, I struggled always in school with not feeling like I was doing enough or working enough or achieving high enough. And that came out in, you know, getting multiple degrees to try to feel like, when would I feel expert enough? And even as I entered my career as a social worker and started and started practicing, I always feel like I didn't know enough. And I was kind of waiting for that point in the future when I would feel ready to do things and I would say, maybe. About a few years into my career, I stumbled on this book called the Secret Thoughts of Successful Women. And it was like someone had taken everything in my brain, in my heart, and put it into this book. And the book is written by Dr. Valerie Young. She has done some research in this area of imposter syndrome. And she really. It was the first time in my life that someone. That there was a term for what I was going through, and I was really able to see very clearly for the first time how how all these things that are connected to imposter syndrome was really so deeply connected to my own sense of self, self worth, my confidence, my self esteem. And I had never really connected the dots to how little things I did were sort of chipping away at my confidence. Like downplaying your accomplishments and saying, oh, it was nothing anyone could have done that I got lucky, or things even saying like, I'm sorry too much, where almost like apologizing for taking up space or apologizing for writing a newsletter and popping into people's inboxes like, oh, I'm sorry, I just have one thing to tell you today. And so really, having this label was actually very powerful because it externalized it for the first time. And since then, I started to notice just how many women and men as well. Actually, the research shows it's pretty comparable between genders, the rates of imposter syndrome. But in my coaching practice, I work with women in particular, and I just noticed how this was a theme that ran through their careers and really underlied the struggles with confidence that they felt the trouble taking risks, and so started to niche my work around that.

A (8:02)

That's so interesting. I love hearing your story. And it kind of brings up my own past experiences and dealing with imposter syndrome as well. I can remember when I was first starting out as a registered intern in private practice, and gosh, that was like 12, 13 years ago. And I was really young at the time because I had just graduated with my master's program. I was probably 24, and I was working with clients who were a lot older than me, and I looked young. So I remember always trying to dress up and I would wear suits and it wasn't really authentic to how I am, you know, or how I really wanted to present myself. I just was trying to make myself look more professional, more experienced and older. And then I can remember when people would ask, oh, you're, you know, are you married?

C (8:49)

And I'd be like, no, I'm not married.

A (8:51)

And they, you know, they would say, oh, well, how can you help, you know, a couple who's married if you've never been married or if you don't have kids? How can you help a couple who have kids? And I remember those. I was always afraid in the beginning for those conversations. And I didn't really have a name for that experience of imposter syndrome. And I find that even in my. Over the years, as I expand into new specializations or new skills or a new online business, when we expand into new areas, sometimes that voice of imposter syndrome will pop back up and rear its ugly head. So I know it's something that a lot of clinicians struggle with all throughout the career. What about for you?

B (9:34)

Yeah, it's just really interesting as I hear you talk, like, different things kind of pop in my mind, like when you're talking about your name. And I can just imagine if you are the child of someone who is a doctor or successful engineer and others are engineers or doctors, and why aren't you? Right. Or the tall kid who everyone thinks is a basketball player. Right? Well, why aren't you a basketball player? You should be a forward or center, right? And, like, what that does and that just really interesting. Like your story. And I was reminded, as you were sharing, and I think I said, oh, we got to talk about this on the podcast, as I had posted a few weeks ago on Facebook, it always surprised me, and I posted about this, that when I have a scheduled call with someone, right. Like, we committed, it's in the calendar. It's our appointment, right. That they'll say, is now a good time? And I just. I don't get that. Like, to me, it's like, no, I committed to you this time. Like, we're good. And you posted. And Tricia Young also posted another therapist, right? About, like, the shame stuff that comes up, like, I'm being a bother or all that stuff. And it just, like, really opened my awareness to the background noise of what's going on for other people, where for me, it's like, hey, I know I committed this time to you. Of course it's a good time. I totally get it. If I'm interrupting your day and you didn't expect me to call, but that was just such an interesting thing. Right. And so there's all these things that we do behave and think and really what's in the background is the imposter stuff or shame or things like that that's just really underlying. So it's just a cool. I mean, as therapists, we're naturally curious about the psyche anyway.

A (11:07)

Right.

B (11:07)

And so we gotta pick apart everything and understand what's happening. And it's just, it's, it's cool. So I'm looking forward as we dive more into this topic and really how to outsmart it.

A (11:17)

Yes. What are some of those recommendations or maybe ways that you've learned in your own experience or you coach other people through to help them outsmart the imposter syndrome?

C (11:27)

Yeah, well, I think just going back to something you said, really just to describe more about what imposter syndrome is, I think we've all experienced it before, but it's that feeling of being a fake or a fraud, it's doubting yourself constantly and it's really marked by having trouble internalizing your success despite. Despite evidence otherwise. So it's really this deeper self belief that you couldn't replicate your success or that you don't deserve it. And so that, that shame is really important. It's almost like this. It's a distorted self perception we have of ourselves versus the evidence all around us of having multiple degrees, having lots of training, having booked the call and somebody agreed to it, yet we have this sort of internal dialogue going on that that's not good enough or we shouldn't be here. And so the most important way to outsmart it is to really find ways to start internalizing your success and appreciating it. And so I think as clinicians, it places us, we have a really unique kind of position when it comes to battling imposter syndrome because we already have. We're skilled in the tool set that we need to conquer it. We understand the psyche, we understand how to work with cognitive distortions, we understand how to, how belief translates into behavior. And it's really all about starting to redirect some of those skills and the tool sets that we have towards ourselves. Very cool.

B (13:24)

There was something as you were talking about in your story on really not accepting your accomplishments, for me, it was more like, yeah, I achieved something. Okay, and on to the next thing. On to the next thing, right? Like, so, okay, here it is, you know, so what? You know, okay. And other people would be like happy or excited. Well, you're like, yeah, well, I got the next task to do. But really. So for me, and I was actually at lunch yesterday with Melissa Buffington, who was on one of our previous podcasts, and we were talking about money, right. And I, for me, I see that everyone has like some big thing that they've struggled with, right? Whether it's their weight or money or relationships or something like that is there's this like, thing. And I know for me, when I began connecting the dots of celebrating my accomplishments and wins and also having good feelings about money and spending money and being grateful and all that stuff is things changed, right? And now so it's natural to. It's not as much as a thought process, Right. It's kind of like, oh, we did something really great, we have to celebrate it.

A (14:28)

Right.

B (14:29)

And that's become really part of our brand as well, is really encouraging that celebration, that excitement, because that begins to anchor in and shift a lot of that stuff.

C (14:39)

Yeah, I think it's Rick Hanson, I believe, who has this concept of taking in. And it's doing exactly that, of appreciating, being mindful in the moment, really having gratitude for those experiences, reliving, asking yourself what's working well, instead of focusing on what haven't I done, what's not working. That being a really core way of the way we start rewiring this negative pattern that is the inner critic. Because really, again, those are just.

B (15:16)

Well.

C (15:17)

Wrought neural pathways that we have of those stories we've been telling ourselves about that imposter syndrome. I don't deserve it. I can't replicate this. I'm not good with money, that type of thing. So we have to start very consciously noticing those times when things are working well, noticing when we do feel good about money or when we do have fun marketing ourselves or doing something in our business and take those experiences in, internalize them more rather than dismissing them. So I always like to tell people to watch your language first.

B (15:54)

Watch your mouth.

C (15:56)

Yes, watch your mouth. It's almost like you have to parrot yourself in that way. Watch for times where you do dismiss your accomplishments, where you say, like, oh, that was nothing. Or, you know, like you were saying, now I have more, now I just have more to do. Watch where you're dismissing yourself. Take in compliments. I always say that women in particular, we have this bad habit of over explaining our way out of accomplishments. Like, we'll say, oh, it was the team. Everybody else helped me just say practice saying less. Practice just saying thank you. Or like, I'm so glad you noticed. I'm so glad you liked it and move on. Don't feel the need to justify or explain away how you were able to accomplish something that you did.

B (16:53)

Interesting as you. As you talk about this stuff and the receiving, you're right. That's a really difficult thing. And I remember and actually a few different bodies of self work that I did, I remember, like, working with a group, and part of it, like, whatever we were done presenting or doing is like, we had to stand there with our arms wide open, like heart center, and then just receive everybody's, like, gratitude and appreciation and just, like, stand there and hold it and just say thank you. Like, it was intense, but that was like the practice of just like receiving or receiving a gift or if someone's buying you lunch or whatever, even practicing in those moments, because it is building that muscle of, oh, thank you. Not, oh, you can't do that. No, that's not okay. I have to pay for, you know, like, just receive, right? And that just feels good. And I remember when I. When I did a year of business coaching, part of what we had to do is write down our little progresses and then match it with, you know, a reward. So I wrote down a lot of my progresses, and then this other side was very blank and sparse, you know, but again, it was the practice of doing that. And, you know, we love that. And we do celebrate a lot of stuff here, and we've definitely incorporated that into our ecourse in our marketing. Because when you can begin to celebrate, you know, and acknowledge and understand what you've created and appreciate those things, it gives that drive to keep going.

A (18:15)

I had this random memory that popped in my head as you were talking about you. And I had this. We went to a workshop. I can't remember what the organization was. Bon was the presenter. We worked on the business for the entire day. And so we'd worked on the business the entire day. We set all these goals for our next 90 days. And we had to write a letter to our future selves once we accomplished the goals, basically celebrating the success and affirming that. And so I completely forgot that I wrote the letter. And maybe three months later, I got this letter in the mail. And I'm like, why does this handwriting look familiar? So I opened it up and I start reading. I'm like, what is this? And then I was like, oh, I wrote this letter to myself. I completely forgot I wrote that. But it was really cool because we had accomplished all of the things that we had wanted to accomplish. So it's a Way of like celebrating that success. And yeah, it just kind of popped back in my mind. So it relates, so I figured I'd share that.

C (19:13)

That can be so powerful, writing a letter to your future self. The other thing I like to do is keep a brag file. A brag file, again, can be really uncomfortable to receive that praise, but it's. A brag file is literally a computer file or folder in your email or even if you have a board in your office where you post cards from clients or emails from happy customers or from colleagues who said you really helped them out. Screenshots of people on Facebook or whatever it may be. But any you need to have a place for when you do feel down and you do feel like you're doubting yourself, where you can go and get that concrete evidence I was mentioning before. Cognitive distortions. And our inner critic has a way of making us think in black and white that things are horrible or they're awesome. There's no in between. We are horrible or awesome and there's no in between. When you find yourself in that black and white thinking and when you're catastrophicizing or when you're making up emotional reasoning about why someone's not responding to your emails, you need a place to go where you can shore up your self esteem and your belief in yourself. That's going to get you back in that space of feeling good, of getting that actual evidence to counteract what the fraudy feelings are telling you.

B (20:50)

I know when we went to Funnel Hackers back in March, Tony Robbins closed the show, if you will. And a lot of Tony Robbins talks about state changes, right? And I remember, I think it was, I don't know, superhero state Shakes is what we call them, right? Is when you actually physically shift your state. So you stand up, you jump around or whatever, you shift out of the emotional state. And I don't know what website, what number website I was creating content for, but that at the time, and it's funny, I love creating content now, but at the time it was like I was loathing it. So after I did one page, I would get up and I would like do a dance, you know, like celebrating. And it just makes you feel different, you know what I mean? So I love that you talk about like the brag file or the wall or whatever is because you go and you engage and you begin to shift your energy. That's awesome. What are some of your personal favorite ways to outsmart imposter syndrome? What do you like?

C (21:46)

Oh, boy. You know, I think what helps me the most is to realize there's a core irony of imposter syndrome. And it's that the further you get into your career or your work, the more acute imposter syndrome gets. And that's because as you rise in your career things, just, the problems you face, the challenges you're up against, the type of work you're doing, it just inherently becomes more complex and complicated. That's just the nature of life. And if you grow, you're necessarily going to put yourself in uncomfortable positions and imposter syndrome is going to show up even more because you're putting yourself in new situations all the time. And so for me, it actually helps to use that reframe of I know when imposter syndrome is showing up. I actually know that's a good sign because it means that I'm doing something different, I'm challenging myself in some new way. And so I'm able to, I've been able to change my relationship with it from one that doesn't make me. It doesn't so much trigger that sense of shame, of, oh gosh, I'm feeling this way, that confirms that I'm horrible and I actually do suck. I actually take it as a sign that, okay, it's showing up, that's a good sign because it means that I'm progressing. And if it's showing up even more, I know that I just have to, I know it's my natural fear response trying to protect me. And so being able to reframe it in that way, especially in the moment, helps bring me back down to earth and not lose myself in that spiral of worry and self doubt. Because that can really, in the moment, just completely take you off track.

A (23:47)

As you're talking, I'm just envisioning this little like ugly gremlin that like, and it's like that, you know, that fear based reaction that, I mean, I can definitely relate to that. And it's, yeah, it's, it's interesting to hear about your perspective and what you found to be helpful in overcoming that and how you help so many other people, especially women, to overcome that. Because it is so helpful to just name it, like, oh, hey there, imposter syndrome. Like, I know you, you familiar little gremlin, you. But I'm gonna outsmart you this time, you know, I'm gonna give you the boot and kick you out. And I know it's kind of cool to have that externalized changing of relationship.

B (24:24)

So incorporating narrative therapy with the cognitive disorder, what you're saying?

C (24:28)

Exactly.

A (24:30)

A little narrative Little cbt.

C (24:36)

Eclectic.

A (24:37)

We will outsource. We will outsource you. We will outsmart you.

B (24:42)

That's what I say that word a lot.

A (24:44)

Hey, let's just give them another task. Hey, this isn't gonna work here anymore. Imposter syndrome. You gotta go over there and, like, work on somebody else.

B (24:51)

Go do my taxes.

C (24:56)

If only it showed up then.

A (24:58)

Oh, therapist humor.

B (25:01)

So, Melody, as you talk and as you talk about scaling and being a leader, I can't remember in the early days of the private practice startup, I feel like there was this feeling between you and I where we weren't as authentic as we were now. Right. Like, now we're this face of what it looks like to be a successful therapist, and we can't share anything that's not working. Right. And interestingly enough, as we went on.

A (25:24)

Right, right.

C (25:25)

Yeah.

A (25:25)

It's a similar journey, but in a different way.

B (25:27)

Right?

A (25:28)

Yeah.

B (25:28)

And we were very structured and stuff like that. And, you know, I remember when Katlove, they had done a review of our initial whatever websites, and Kat was saying, like, you guys have all these, like, professional, like, suits and stuff like that. Like, that's not how I see you. And we're like, yeah, that's not.

A (25:46)

That's not really what I'm trying to portray for us. Yeah, not really in a lot of brands.

B (25:50)

But I think, yeah, as we began being more authentic. Right. And sharing the struggles and also as we went on this, you know, ridiculous marketing journey. And marketing is all about authenticity and sharing, connecting with the pain and the validation and things like that. Like, it's almost like what Brene talks about, like, shame, resiliency.

A (26:06)

Right.

B (26:07)

Is when you can be authentic and vulnerable with people that you can trust. It just. It snuffs it out. It can't live.

A (26:13)

So true. And it's so attractive. That's what people are attracted to anyways, is the, you know, the humanness, the, you know, the mistakes, the just the realness of that, being able to share that journey.

B (26:27)

Is that part of outsmarting imposter syndrome? Like having that support network that you.

C (26:30)

Can go to 100%. So there are two general responses. When imposter syndrome sets in, people generally fall into two camps of responding. The first is perfectionism. So they double down, they work harder, like I mentioned before, they get more degrees. They are the ones who stay late and try to do all the things in an effort to prove their worth, improve their competence. The other camp is procrastination, or the avoidance tendency, where you will avoid any new opportunities. Or you may be reluctant to ask for help and hire out in your business. Or I see this a lot in working with therapists around getting in the media. They don't want to do any of that because they're not an expert, they're not qualified enough, so they just completely stay away from it. And so absolutely, the perfectionism can be disabling. But having people who can be a witness to your process, who you can feel safe to share those imperfections with at first and build up your comfort level with doing that helps you get past that black or white thinking. The fear of, if I show anyone that I'm not perfect, they will think I'm unworthy and reject me. That's really like, the big fear that's at the bottom of it. That's at the crux of. Right, exactly. So having a small group of people, having a Facebook community, being a part of a course where there's people who can say, I understand, and I've been there too. And I think it's one of those big elephants in the room that everybody. There's actual research from the two researchers who initially coined the term that about 70% of people struggle with imposter syndrome at some point in their lifetime. That's a lot of people.

A (28:35)

That's really normalizing.

B (28:36)

You're amongst the company, right?

C (28:39)

Exactly. Exactly. No one has it all together. They may look like it on the outside once you scratch the surface a little bit. We're all really struggling with a lot of these universal feelings. And so finding people who can help you through that, be your cheerleader when you feel down, that's absolutely a huge, huge component of it.

B (29:02)

It's interesting, as you say, that one of the things I find myself probably saying every day in therapy is something like, welcome to being human. That's a human thing. And me too. You know what I mean? Because we do sometimes, when we're in that struggle, think it's just us.

C (29:19)

Yeah. And I think that goes just for clinicians as well. Especially earlier on in my career, I felt like I had. I felt at times like I was failing if my clients didn't walk out with a big breakthrough or an aha. And not that I wanted to fix them, not that I felt that was my role, because, of course not we learned that. But still, because you're so dedicated to your career, you feel like you want to be helping people, and if you're not seeing that transformation on a daily basis, then what are you doing? You're not cut out for this. And I think Learning to witness somebody else's process and just be there and listen to them if you know that would help you work through your imposter syndrome. Sometimes that's what your clients need as well. And that's actually the biggest service you can provide for them is help them realize their humanity and witness their process as well. Cool.

B (30:24)

Well, I know that we could continue talking about this for a long time. Podcast has just flown by. We just really appreciate your awarenesses reflections on this. I love that whole like last piece about perfectionism and procrastination. That was a wealth of knowledge for me. We've enjoyed having you back, Melody.

C (30:44)

Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure.

B (30:46)

What do you want to make sure that our audience takes away from your message today?

C (30:50)

I want people to remember that it is to, I think the message of receiving, of letting the good in instead of I call it kicking the ball down the field. Especially as perfectionists have a tendency to. Once we set one goal, before we even set one goal, we've already raised the bar even higher and learning to welcome in what's going well. Yes. What you're having fun with right now actually makes everything much more pleasurable and makes business more easy. So if you can focus on that instead of evaluating whether you're doing enough and good enough, then that's a huge win.

A (31:36)

I'm sure everybody listening is taking away all sorts of little nuggets of information and reminders and a lot of this is mindset too. A lot of what you talk about is so related to mindset. So thank you so much for being back with us and we'll look forward to connecting with you again soon.

B (31:52)

And what was your giveaway?

C (31:54)

So I have a free five day imposter syndrome course with more great tips and a lot of different strategies and you can grab that@melodywilding.com course.

B (32:07)

Awesome.

A (32:08)

That's so great.

B (32:08)

Course we'll put that on the Show Notes page just for easy access. And so you perfectionist, you don't have to do it perfect. And your procrastinators just get on it.

C (32:18)

That's great. Don't be so scared. Don't be scared, don't be scared.

B (32:22)

It's all good. So thanks so much again for joining us, Melody. And next week you are going to want to join us. We have another guest coming back from round two which we are super excited about, Yolanda Harper. She is going to be talking about, holy cow, I am on a TED Talk. So if you are interested in learning how to present, speak or get on a TED Talk. You will definitely want to join us for that podcast. And hey guys, you know what? Show us some love. I know we don't really ask often, but we would love for you to subscribe, rate and review to the podcast. We would love a Google review wherever you feel like showing us love. I guess this is like perfect alignment with what we're talking about, right? When we'll just receive all that love. A lot of.

A (33:01)

Are you asking for validation?

B (33:02)

No, I'm not asking for validation. I'm just asking if you're really enjoying this, these podcasts and stuff like that. There are so many times we do get emails of people just sharing their appreciation and it's so beautiful to have that and we definitely really appreciate that.

A (33:17)

On one hand, I mean, I am a words of affirmation girl, so I love the validation and appreciation. I love it when that happens. I soak it all up. And on the other hand, when we get the reviews, it helps for Google to be able to push out our podcast as a free resource for more private practitioners. So it really helps us help more people. And that's the main reason that we ask.

B (33:38)

Yeah, and it's really, it's profound because I think just last week we had gotten an email and I wish I knew the person off the top of my head, but what they state in their email is I've built my entire practice based on your podcast. Like that's, that's what we're up to creating guys. And so, you know, we started this journey podcasting over two years ago not knowing where it would go, but you know, to get those things. Help us help more people. Yeah, exactly. What is exactly what we need. So anyways, also share this with your fellow friends and colleagues because like Melody said, 70% of us, really, I'm sure it's like 199% of us at one time or another is dealing with imposter syndrome and especially being in private practice. New to private practice, or getting ready to level up and scale your business. I'm sure the little gremlin is on its way if it's not there yet. So I know that this was really helpful for us today. So guys, have an awesome and inspired day. Thank you for allowing us to continue to inspire you from startup to mastery. Take care.

A (34:33)

See you next time. Thanks for joining us on the private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

B (34:56)

SA.