A (2:29)

Today's sponsor is TherapyNotes. There's so many ways to keep your practice organized, but TherapyNotes is the best. They're easy to use, secure platform, lets you not only do your billing, scheduling and progress notes, but also create a client portal to share your documents and request signatures. Plus, they offer amazing unlimited phone support so that when you have a question, you can get help fast. To get started with their practice management software trusted by over 60,000 professionals, go to therapynotes.com and we're actually going to give you the specific link so that you can have two free months to try it out. And that will be on our Show Notes page. So make sure to check that out. And you'll need to enter the promo code pps as in the private practice Startup. And if you want to hear more about Therapy Notes, definitely check out our previous episode with Brad Pleiner, episode 54. That link is also in the Show Notes so you can hear our deep dive into Therapy Notes and why they're such an amazing, amazing EHR platform. Without further ado, let's dive into Today's episode with Dr. Joy. Thanks for being here.

C (3:35)

Thank you.

B (3:36)

And just a little bit about you. Joy, before we get started is Joy's a licensed psychologist. She's currently living in Georgia and creator of Therapy for Black Girls. She's been all over pr, everywhere. She's been in o the Oprah Magazine, Huffington Post, Teen Vogue, and Essence, and even has been shouted out by Rihanna.

C (3:54)

How cool is that?

A (3:55)

That is pretty badass.

B (3:56)

Who can say that? I know I can.

A (3:59)

I know. It's epic. I heard that and I was like, oh my gosh, this girl's something.

C (4:04)

Now I don't know if Rihanna has shouted me out. Maybe I missed that one, but definitely it was Solange. Maybe that's who you're thinking about.

B (4:10)

I don't know. I think I saw Rihanna picture. She looked like she was on David Lever. I don't know. And it was all this thing about therapy for black girls.

C (4:17)

Yeah, I think that was just a meme. That was just a meme that they what? Hey.

B (4:23)

Whether she shouted you out already in the past or she's going to, we're Just gonna create it.

A (4:27)

That it's putting it out there for you.

C (4:29)

Out there for. We will claim it.

B (4:31)

So it was a cool meme anyway.

C (4:33)

Yes, definitely. Yeah.

B (4:36)

I think we just really want to start, like, like we said even before we hit record, we've known it about you for a while and actually got to watch some of your progression through Healthcasters, which is Melvin Varghese's community. And we all make up the community of podcasters, so those in the health space and health and healing space. And so it's just been really cool to watch your progression, but, you know, we really want to kind of know your story on how did you decide to create therapy for black girls.

A (5:02)

Mm.

C (5:02)

Yeah. So it actually started in September of 2014, and I started as a blog, and I got the inspiration from it after watching. So there's an award show on BET called Black Girls Rock, where they honor different black women in, like, various fields like education and entertainment and all of that. And it just was such incredible energy. Like, everybody online was tweeting about it at the same time. Like, it was just a great, like, community experience. And so I thought, oh, wouldn't it be cool if I could do something like that for black women in mental health? So I jumped on GoDaddy and saw if the domain was available for therapy for black girls, and it was kind of born from there.

A (5:39)

I love that.

C (5:40)

That's so cool.

B (5:42)

And so tell us a little bit about the inspiration behind, like, what is it that you are committed to transforming or changing for black women?

C (5:49)

Yeah, I really wanted to be able to kind of create a space where mental health topics felt very relevant and accessible for black women. You know, I think a lot of times we use a lot of, like, jargon when we're talking with each other clinically. And, you know, I think that it's fine when we're talking to one another, but when we're talk to clients and prospective clients, like, that's not the kind of language we want to be using. And so I thought it was really important to kind of, like, blog about topics where people could just get it in real language. So one of my other favorite things is pop culture. So I do a lot of, like, blogging and the podcast episodes that kind of connect what people are watching and listening to to mental health kinds of topics.

B (6:29)

That's so cool. And, you know, Kate and I are supervisors here down in South Florida, and South Florida, being so transient, I would say we're so lucky because we have such authentic food from South America, Central America, and all the islands. And I know that I've supervised many clinicians that are of Caribbean culture. And there's a huge stigma in the Caribbean cultures. And really, you know, getting into therapy or reaching out for therapy. And do you notice that kind of all the way around for black women throughout the US or is it in certain areas?

C (6:58)

Yeah, I think generally there is still a lot of stigma related to it. Though I do see that gradually changing because people are becoming much more open and sharing about their mental health journeys. But I definitely think historically, there has been stigma in black and brown communities related to reaching out for mental health treatment.

B (7:16)

And I love the idea of just utilizing pop culture and just everyday things just to kind of normalize things. And, you know, one of my favorite things to tell my clients is welcome to being human. You know, a lot of times they feel like they're struggling with this, like, major thing, and they might have this mental health issue. And I'll say something like, well, welcome to being human. I remember two years ago when, you know, I was in that space or someone else was, and really just helping people understand, it's a lot about the human experience. So I love that you're. You're incorporating that, and it also makes it fun. It's kind of like this really cool indirect way of talking about things without talking about them, but kind of talking about them. So that's great.

C (7:49)

Yeah.

A (7:50)

What have you found most helpful about getting the word out there about the particular niche that you offer in your practice?

C (7:59)

So I think, without a doubt, word of mouth has been the biggest thing for me. So podcasting, I think, has expanded my business in so many incredible ways, and the practice really is just a small part of it. So at this point, I'm only practicing one day a week, and the rest of my business is what I'm doing every other day. So it has grown my business, but not necessarily just my caseload. It has also led to, like, speaking engagements and things like that. But I think word of mouth has been the best way because people are talking about the podcast, and they want to tell their friends, and so then their friends tune in, and then they tell their friends, you know, so it really has just kind of grown from there.

A (8:37)

That's awesome. So how long have you actually been podcasting? At this point?

C (8:41)

A little over a year now. It started in April of 2017.

A (8:45)

Okay. And when you first started out, were you working more in your private practice, or you've just kind of had to scale down your private practice? I'm just curious about Your journey. Because I'm sure it could be a lot to kind of juggle the practice, the podcast, your directory platform as well. So tell us a little bit about that.

C (9:03)

Yeah, well, actually, when I started the podcast, I had another full time job in addition to my private practice, in addition to like the directory and all this other stuff you're talking about. And so in January of this year is when I kind of made therapy for black girls, my full time kind of thing, which includes the practice as well as the podcast and directory stuff.

A (9:22)

So everything is under that umbrella. Correct. Congratulations on going full time with that.

C (9:27)

Thank you, thank you. I'm excited about it.

A (9:29)

Yeah. And what's that transition been like?

C (9:32)

It definitely has been difficult because I think so my background is in college counseling. And so there's a certain rhythm and schedul that comes with being in a college counseling center that is very different from full time, like working for yourself. So, like, making sure that I'm organized and like setting schedules and blocks of times to do things has been the most difficult transition, I think, for me.

B (9:56)

And share with us a little bit, you know, talking about the podcast. So you've highlighted like, the podcast has been one of the things that has really helped you grow your business. And how did kind of everything fit in? Because I know you talked about like, you started with the blog and so then you also have a directory. So share with us a little bit how everything fits in. Where did it all start? What was the inspiration for the other.

C (10:16)

Mm, yeah. So I think a part of me, like, really loving pop culture is also that I spend a lot of time on social media because that's typically where people are talking about pop culture kinds of things. And so I kept seeing people having these conversations, like, oh, I'd like a black therapist. I'm looking for a black woman therapist. But there was no central place for people to go and find them. And so I was like, oh, surely I could create like something simple where people could go and find these people. And so in December, I think of 2016, I put out a call with like a, you know, a Google Doc saying, hey, if you work with a great therapist and you think other people would like to know about your therapist, nominate them and I will compile it for all of the states. And then people can, you know, connect with other black therapists. And so I think at the end of 2016, I had 90 therapists, like just in the Google Doc, and There are now 900 therapists in the directory.

B (11:11)

I got chills for that. That's extraordinary.

A (11:14)

Congratulations.

C (11:15)

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, I mean, the amount of growth that has had in such a short amount of time has just been incredible.

A (11:22)

I know several of my supervisees are on your therapist directory. And I'm curious, did you build this whole directory yourself? Are you an amazing tech savvy person or have you hired like.

C (11:34)

Absolutely not. I had to hire people and actually so the directory. So even though I had the Google Doc version of the directory in December 2016, I actually went to the Next Mastermind with Tiffany and Allison in June of 2017 and was figuring I would do something different, but really was afraid of the directory because of the tech piece. I did not want to even have to figure out what I needed to make it a more advanced version. And they were like, oh, no, you absolutely have to do this. There's already so much buzz around it. Like you are sitting on this thing that could be incred. And of course they were right. So, yeah. So I. Tiffany originally connected me with some people, and then from there I was able to find a developer who built the directory in its current iteration.

A (12:22)

That is so cool about how that whole experience came to be through being at Next with Tiffany and Alison. We love them. They're just awesome. Tiffany's like, when you interact with Tiffany, it's like taking a shot of espresso.

B (12:34)

Double shot, triple shot. She's like pumped in height.

C (12:38)

Right? Exactly.

A (12:39)

That's so cool. So you've been able to outsource that and someone else has or whoever has built that platform for you. And what have you found? Has been like the best ways of kind of getting the word out there and spreading the news about this amazing platform that you have.

C (12:56)

Yeah, other therapists have really done the work for me. So people's caseloads have been filled by people finding them in the directory. And so of course, they will share in the Facebook groups, like, hey, y', all, I'm at a wait list because so many people found me on. On the Therapy for Black Girls directory. Are you listed? You know, so they will kind of just spread the news. And then other therapists, of course, want to sign up so that they can get more clients as well. So they have really been the best level of marketing I could ever ask for.

A (13:22)

And that really speaks to the work that you've done to create this amazing platform as a way to help people. Help more people. Right. And just that news spreading like wildfire. Just word of mouth. That's incredible.

C (13:36)

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely nothing I could have ever Prepared for, like, I don't have a marketing background, so I fully prepared to have to find somebody to do all of that. But at this point I really haven't had to because people are just trusting their colleagues and that's so cool.

B (13:50)

And everybody wants that raving fan marketing. And it's so cool that you did that. And I have to believe it's because you really found a need in the community and it's so niche based and it's such this unique thing and people are just sharing it because it's just working and that's just like the best overall. So I really love that and I love to hear the story because when we think of large companies like Amazon, Jeff Bezos starting Amazon in his garage, you started the directory with a Google Doc. We love the Google Drive. I mean everything is in the Google Drive. But most often the things that you guys are creating out there in the world might start on a napkin or at a cocktail party, or it might be in a dream and you might just scratch it on, you might write it down or you might put it in Word and you might put it in Google Doc and you don't really know what you have. And I think like you kind of knew that this was a cool thing, but then sharing it with trusted colleagues who were really like, yes, you need to do something with this, really inspired you to move forward. And then connecting you to the right team members that could really take on that tech stuff, which I just, you know, want to put, put a pillow over my head when there's tech issues. That's why I let Kate handle it, you know, it's just such a cool thing. So what are some of the women that are the therapists on your directory? What are they kind of saying, you know, I heard that you say like they created full caseloads. Are they also too working more with their ideal client? Like, what has it done for them?

C (15:14)

I think that a lot of them are working with a lot of their ideal clients. And I also think it has given a lot of clinicians permission in some ways to say that these are the kinds of clients that I want, you know, because I think historically, you know, it may have been a little taboo to come out and say, hey, I want more black clients. Right? But there are black clients. Like, it's not like black people don't exist in the world and are not looking for therapy. And so a lot of what happens is that black clients are saying like, I want to go to somebody who maybe really gets me or you know, somebody who looks like me and has this shared experience. And so I think it has also allowed clinicians to kind of have the permission to say, it's okay for my caseload to look however I want it to.

B (15:55)

And that is such a great permission. I remember a while back, I had a client wanting some individual therapy. I was working with them as a couple, and he said, I want a male in this age range, straight married, who has children. And so I posted that. And I remember therapists commenting, like, well, why is it important that the therapist is straight? And I said, client's words, not mine. And ultimately, when we look at common factors is we know that clients do well based off the relationship with the therapist. And I love, like. Like, yeah, that's been a common factor for clients to us. But you just giving therapists the permission to say, like, but this is who I want, and this is who I work the best with, and really breaking that taboo. And I think that's such a. A cool and awesome place. And, you know, you've, like, provided something great for black women, but also black women therapists. And it's just this beautiful thing that you've joined together, and it's so cool. And I'm also curious, like, how did you get into the O Magazine and Huffington Post? I think Kate had seen. Was there something about, like, a State Farm insurance or something about that?

C (16:53)

What was that?

A (16:54)

Yeah, you gotta tell us about how.

B (16:56)

These experiences happen, these PR things you're doing.

C (17:00)

I wish I could unlock some secrets for you guys, but a lot of it, it, again, has really just been word of mouth. And I think that's something for people to take away from this episode, is that you never know who's watching. Right? Like, so it may seem like, oh, I'm not really making that big of an impact, but you never know who the impact is that you're making on. So all of those experiences, like, with Huffington Post, have been from, like, journalists reaching out to me saying, hey, I saw this somewhere else, and we'd love to, like, do an interview with you about your work. The Safe form video was related to. So there's a podcast company in New York that was working with State Farm, and they wanted to do, like, some teasers for their upcoming video or the upcoming season of their podcast. And they were profiling women who they thought were doing really cool things as a part of the, like, publicity campaign. So they reached out to me and wanted to do a video with me.

A (17:54)

That is just so cool. And then how about with Oprah with O Magazine. How did that.

C (17:59)

Yeah, I was just having lunch at her house one day and you know, totally. It was again, somebody like seeing something and saying, oh, we saw that you created this directory. Can we, you know, talk with you about this story we're doing about like, healthcare access and that kind of thing.

A (18:15)

That's wonderful.

B (18:16)

Who knows, Maybe you'll fill Dr. Phil's spot in the connection with Oprah. You know what I mean?

C (18:22)

You never know.

B (18:23)

Never know.

A (18:24)

So it's really all been. It's all come from that place of being useful, seeing a need in the community, filling that need, and then just that word spreading like wildfire, just so organically. And then you've attracted all these amazing PR and media opportunities. That is just so cool. I love hearing that.

C (18:43)

Yeah. Thank you.

B (18:44)

So I'm also curious about some really cool topics you've talked about on your podcast regarding pop culture.

C (18:51)

Did you have any in mind specifically or.

B (18:53)

No. Just curious what you've talked about and what are some of your favorite episodes on your podcast.

C (18:58)

So one of my absolute favorite shows is a show on HBO called Insecure. Do either of you watch Insecure?

B (19:04)

No. Insecure.

A (19:05)

I haven't heard about it. What is Insecure about?

C (19:08)

So it's basically, it's set in California and it's like following this group of maybe like four to six friends, like 30something or late 20, early 30something black women and men in California. Just kind of like a coming of age, like dealing with dating and breakups and that kind of thing. And it really is like the. My ideal audience in television form. Right. Because everybody who like listens to the podcast watches Insecure. Well, not everybody, but a lot of them. And so of course, it felt like a perfect marriage for me to do some podcast episodes about Insecure. So my clinical specialty is actually helping women recover from breakups. And in Insecure, during the first season, what we saw is the lead character breakup with her partner. And so I did a couple of episodes about like, what happens when you run into your ex or sex with the ex or they hooked up a couple of times. I think after they broke up in this season, they actually, actually. Well, this season and last season they actually had one of the characters in therapy and then she was not being honest with her therapist and wasn't telling the therapist the whole story. So I did an episode about, hey, are you being honest with your therapist? And this might be why you're not, and like, let's talk about it. So it has been really cool, like, to be able to create Content based on this thing that everybody is already tuned into.

B (20:31)

That's so cool.

A (20:31)

I just.

B (20:32)

And, you know, of course my brain is, like, geared for marketing, and that definitely was not, like, how I ever imagined it to be many years ago. But I just love. And as you talk, what I think about is the Eddie formula, which is Edie. Right. So when we market, we want to entertain, we want to demonstrate, inform, or educate. And so I love, like, how you take the show. You're talking about specific issues related to what you do in a way that's very entertaining, but you're also putting that message in there, and it just makes it easy for people to be like, yeah, I've been lying to my therapist. Okay, next session. I got some clean. Dr. Joy is talking right to me. I know she is. Right. So listen, I was listening back to Joy's podcast, and I gotta say something. Like, I just, like, I could, like, totally see it, and I can see it, like, as this whole, like, sitcom drama in my mind.

C (21:19)

And that's the reaction that people. He people have to the episodes. They call it light dragging, which is kind of like a term for, like, oh, she kind of, like, called me to the carpet kind of thing, because it feels like I'm talking directly to them if they have not been honest with their therapist. And people share like, yeah, I actually didn't tell my therapist about that. Or I'm struggling with the same kinds of things. So it. It just opens up, like, all of these different conversations that we can then really have real conversations about based on this fictional character.

B (21:48)

That is so fun. So do you do a lot of your. Is your podcast kind of you talking or do you interview? What's the style of your podcast?

C (21:56)

So some of the episodes are solo, but I also do interviews with other guest therapists and sometimes, like, some of the pop culture ones, or me and another therapist talking about a fictional character. And, like, if that character was a client in their practice, these are the kinds of things they might work with them on. And those have been. Yeah, those have been really popular. Like, Olivia Pope has been on the couch. Like, what would we do if Olivia Pope was our client? Kind of thing. So, again, helping clients to see, like, the kinds of things that fictional characters struggle with, that you might also be struggling with that you could talk with a therapist about. I love that.

A (22:29)

That is such a creative way to bring these trending topics, like, and relate them right into the therapy room. And it probably helps your listeners to just feel so much more comfortable with the idea of therapy and destigmatizes and kind of normalizes, and it's bringing all of this into the mainstream, which is so cool.

C (22:47)

Absolutely. And that's the goal. That is the whole thing. Because does anybody really know what happens when, like, a therapist closes the door? Like, if you've not had therapy, you have no idea what happens when that door closes. Right. And so I think the podcast and those kinds of episodes specifically really give people, like, an idea of what kinds of things you might be talking about.

A (23:06)

Our pillows could talk, right?

B (23:09)

It's so interesting you say that, because I remember I had a client come in one time, and she walks in the room and she looks around and she points to the couch and she likes. In all seriousness, she goes, do I lay down there? And I said, if you want. I mean, if that makes you comfortable, you're totally cool. You can even kick your shoes off. That's fine. I'm cool with that. And she, like, looked at me and I go, yeah, it's kind of not like Freud. Not like that type of thing. I'm like, we're just gonna talk. It's cool. But you're right, like, the level of anxiety that people come, especially when it is, you know, a whole new experience, is definitely very anxiety provoking. So I love that. And it was cool. Like, as you were talking, I'm also thinking not only do they get to, like, hear some words of wisdom for themselves, but they almost. Your guest listening to the podcast or your audience, they almost hear, like, what goes on in the therapist's mind. Right? Like, don't. I mean, come on. How many times in our life are people like, you're psychoanalyzing me. No, man, I'm just out to dinner. Like, I ain't got time for your stuff. I'm good. I'm not trying to think about your relationship right now. I just. I'm enjoying the steak. Thank you.

C (24:07)

Right, right.

B (24:08)

So I think that's a cool, like, even perspective for potential clients, like, hearing that. So awesome. Well, I've just really enjoyed this. Like, again, I feel like we're like our second shot of espresso with this podcast too. So it's just been great. And we really just enjoy having you here, Joy, sharing about, you know, what's made you successful in therapy for black girls and really breaking down those barriers, eating pop culture and really just kind of letting it, like, run like wildfire, which is so cool.

A (24:36)

What do you want our listeners to take away from being here today, Joy?

C (24:40)

I think the main takeaway should be to Kind of just pay attention to the things that are really interesting to you and see if you can figure out a way to really bring that out in your work because other people really connect to that. Like, I would encourage people not to be afraid to do the thing that seems a little far fetched or like, oh, my other colleagues are not doing this kind of thing because it actually could be the thing that sets you apart.

B (25:03)

That's so cool. And it has been for you. And so obviously our audience is full of therapists. So for therapists looking to get on your directory, can you just share a little bit about the directory? And we'll add all of your website, your directory, and your podcast also to our show notes. But I want to make sure they hear a little bit about the directory.

C (25:19)

Yeah. So it's, you know, very similar to other directories you may be signed up for. You can just go to therapy for black girls.com being listed and you can create a profile. It's $15 a month and you can cancel at any time. There's no obligation. But yeah, do you update your profile once and then if nothing ever changes, you can just leave it be and it just stays up there listed in your state.

A (25:42)

Awesome.

B (25:42)

And obviously check out her podcast as well, which is therapy for black girls.com podcast. Like Kate said, it's all under one umbrella. So thank you so much again for being here and just sharing your passion and inspiration and how you reached out to your colleagues to really help you make that just kind of come into the world. So we really appreciate that. And next time, Startup Nation, you're going to want to check out the next podcast because you know this podcast is with Melissa hall, and if you're a therapist, you have at least struggled with this. Either you're struggling with it right now or you've struggled with it one time in your life. She's going to be talking about tips for note writing, so I know how much we love documentation as therapists. It is part of the job. And she's going to talk to you guys about how to get that done, how to get it done quicker. Leave it at the office so you can go home and not think about those, you know, 40, 100 notes that you have yet to do in two months. So join us next. Sign for that podcast and don't forget to if this podcast really inspired you, feel free to share it with your friend, colleague. I'm sure they will be happy that you did. So Startup Nation, have an amazing day. Afternoon, evening, morning, wherever you are at. And we will see you next time.

A (26:49)

Joy. It's been a joy having you on today and Startup Nation. We'll see you next time.

C (26:53)

Thank you.

A (27:00)

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more. Sam.