A (2:48)

Yes, the sponsor for today's episode is when it comes to keeping your practice organized, you want to make sure that your software is not only simple, but the best. And that's why we recommend TherapyNotes. Their platform lets you manage notes, claims, scheduling, and so much more. Plus, they offer amazing unlimited phone and email support. When you have a question, they're right there to help. To get started with your practice management software, trusted by over 60,000 professionals, go to therapynotes.com and start your free trial today. If you enter the promo code pps, as in Private practice Startup. They will give you two months for free to try it out. And you can catch that link at our Show Notes on the Show Notes page. And if you want to hear more about TherapyNotes and really do a deep dive into the experience of their platform, definitely listen to episode 54 of our podcast where we interviewed Brad Pleiner. TherapyNotes is our sponsor for today, and we couldn't be more appreciative. So let's dive into our episode.

B (3:52)

Well, before we dive in, I forgot to mention, I hope you guys joined us. Last week, actually, Kate and I were guests on our own podcast. We actually had Amy Lasseter reach out to us and say, I would love to interview you guys on your podcast. And we thought that was such a stellar idea. And she picked a topic that we've been wanting to talk about. So we really appreciate the opportunity. So we talked about how to choose a business partner. So as most of you know, or maybe you don't, Kate and I are one of, I think, two duos here in the private practice builders world. There's Zinni, me, so that's Miranda and Kelly, but we make up the only other duo, I believe.

A (4:26)

Yeah, I believe you're right.

B (4:28)

I'm sure there'll be more. So we actually talked about our business partnership and how that our story and kind of the recommendations and advice that we would give in creating a business partnership. So join us for that. All right, let's jump into your topic, Gordon. So creating a private practice that is financially sustainable.

C (4:45)

All right. Yeah. So, again, I'm so glad to be here. This is just exciting stuff. You know, one of the things that really kind of got me on this, going in this direction is that, you know, in my work as a consultant like you guys are as a consultant and coach for people in private practice. You know, one of the things that it comes down to for most people is just being able to sustain their practice in a way that's financially sound. You know, that we all get into private practice really for, you know, well, for several reasons, but one of the big reasons is just being able to have the freedom and the flexibility of schedules and that sort of thing, but also being able to increase our earning potential. In other words, being able to make more money than we would maybe necessarily working for someone else. And just the whole idea around being our own boss. But for most of us, just like the business side of private practice, unless you've had some business courses or had some experience in that, we really don't learn how to manage our finances and learn how to do that whole financial bit. And, you know, I think for a lot of us, too, we can be handed just some ideas about money and money mindsets growing up that bleed over into how we run our business and just run our lives and the lifestyle we create for ourselves. So that was something that I really became kind of interested in and a little bit passionate about here lately. I know on my own podcast, and I know you guys are getting ready to interview. Mike Michalowicz is one you shared with me. And when I read his book Profit first, it really just kind of clicked for me and just really got me excited about all of this and thinking about money differently. So that's been my mission here lately with the practice of therapy and really trying to get out there to people, clinicians, how to manage their money differently. And so I'm working on a course that I'm putting together just around that hole issue. The title I've landed on is Money Matters in Private Practice. So getting into that more. So, yeah, so that's one of the things that's been on my radar here lately.

A (7:30)

Awesome.

B (7:30)

And thanks to you. Actually, when you and I spoke before we did your podcast and you told me that you interviewed Mike Michalowicz, and actually, we'll have you send over that link and we'll put it in the show notes of this episode as well, you actually inspired me to reach out to him. So that's why he's on our podcast.

C (7:46)

So thank you. Yay. Yay.

B (7:48)

Kate and I created an actual video and sent him a video which we had done for another author that we're having on our podcast, Jeb Blunt, on his book Objections. So we sent them a very personal Video.

C (8:00)

And they said, yes, that's a great idea. I think I'll steal that idea.

B (8:03)

No, you totally should.

A (8:05)

Yes. It's been a cool way to just genuinely say thank you and connect with people, and it's worked well and really getting the opportunities that we want. And we couldn't agree with you more with Profit First. It's been something that's been a game changer for us. We've been using it for a little over a year with the private practice startup, and it's been. It's just totally transformed the whole experience. And I love bonuses when the end of the come around and I'm like, oh, what's our bonus going to be this time? It's always so exciting.

C (8:35)

Yeah.

A (8:36)

But it is a great way to transform the whole experience of managing money in private practice, and it is something that clinicians struggle with so, so much. We'll add the link for the podcast we had with Laura Long and Ernesto Segismundo on the podcast, talking about Private first or Profit first as well. So, yeah, tell us kind of about your own relationship with money and your own journey of.

C (9:01)

Excuse me. Sorry about that. Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that in growing up, I grew up in a family where money was something that was always, at least in my mind, seems scarce. My dad was a pastor, and so we kind of grew up really kind of living to some degree off the generosity of others, you know, and it was in that my dad was a product of the Depression. And so the money mindset that we had that I had growing up was that if you happened into money or you got money, it was just by sheer luck or out of the generosity of others. And so one of the things about that, though, is that we all know that we do have the ability to create income for ourselves. And I'm sorry, guys, I'm gonna take a drink here.

A (10:08)

That's all right.

C (10:10)

And that is coffee, by the way.

B (10:13)

It's so funny you said that, because I had this idea. I was like, we should play this game called what's in your cup?

C (10:19)

Yeah, yeah.

A (10:20)

What's in my cup over here? What do you guys think of this little.

C (10:22)

This little cup? Yeah, that's cool.

B (10:26)

So I have cold brew water. Wait, wait, wait.

A (10:31)

And seltzer.

C (10:32)

All right.

B (10:33)

I don't like just one drink, apparently. So back to your upbringing.

C (10:38)

Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so one of the things about money is, too, is that I think that we can have some money shame and money guilt. In other words, we either feel like money is scarce and that somehow or another, we don't deserve to have money or have income. I know for one, you know, for a therapist, especially you, most of us, hopefully we're fairly compassionate people, and sometimes I think we can feel a sense of guilt for taking people's money, for being able to make a living around that. In other words, if we're taking people's money, we're somehow another causing them harm or something along those lines, which is just a complete myth. You know, the other thing is just the whole scarcity mentality and that there's not enough. And so that was a mindset that I had to kind of overcome in my own practice of being able to feel good about what I was earning and to be able to charge people a fair rate in order for me to make a living and in order for me to keep the practice going. I think the other thing that I never really learned along the way was how to allocate money in a good way and also investing and those kinds of things. Those were just things that I had to learn on my own, pretty much in many ways. The hard way of not learning those kind of money management skills. My parents are very dear people. They're both still alive, but they still to this day struggle with managing their money well. And so, you know, fortunately, me and my. And my siblings, we're helping them with that now and being able to take what they've got and allocate it better. But that was the big thing that I really kind of learned for myself. And I really felt like there were probably a lot of other clinicians out there that were struggling with some of the same things or just not really knowing how to create, how to manage their money in a way that's going to help them. You know, another thing too, is that I think there's this, you know, a few weeks ago or a week or so ago, you know, when the lottery jackpot reached like 1 1/2 billion dollars, you know, there was all this lottery fever. And what was what got me, I started getting curious. And so I was looking at, looking up some information about previous lottery winners, and they haven't fared too well, They've not done well. And what I think happens is we had this idea that if we amass some kind of big, you know, it's good to have reserves, but amassing a lot of wealth isn't necessarily all that helpful. In fact, it can make things much more complicated. And I think what most of us really want, if we got down to it, is to be able to have the money that we need, to have the lifestyle that we want in our lives and in our practices. I mean, you know, it's really, at least for me, it's pretty simple. I mean, I just, you know, I like having a good house to live in. I like to be able to drive a reliable car. I like being able. The fact that I've been able to send my daughter to college and she's graduated and being able to go on vacations where I want to go on vacations, and if I want to go out to eat, I don't have to worry about that. And, and that's, you know, that's pretty simple stuff. But that's, I think, what most people are really looking for in their lives.

B (14:34)

As you're sharing, there's so many, like, points that I just want to like, say yes. And I so relate to one of the things that you talk about that I really love. And I know that you put this in your show notes and that's why I'm looking at them. And you talk about really getting clear, like on your, on your lifestyle that you want to live. And that's a big tip. I love that you talk about the relationship with money. The message that I got growing up was you have to work hard to make money. So my life up until probably a few years ago has been working very hard, morning, noon and night and on the weekends. And do I work hard now still? Sure. But I have so much more time off. And just even looking at the past five weeks, I spent a week in Peru, I was home for a weekend and Kate and I had worked and then three weekends in a row I was gone so long weekend. So I went to Kentucky, went to Asheville with Kate and then went home to Connecticut. So to be able to look at that and just take a step back for a moment, be like, wow, like a lot has changed and you know, learning a lot. And when you talk about like the lottery winners, I think there's like a show about like a lottery winners and why a lot of majority of them, they can't contain the money that they have because it's almost like the money comes in and you think the thing will change. And they don't have the context to hold that right. And the context is really the mindset and then action and implementation. So I'd love to learn a little bit more about. And I know you kind of talk, you talk about your why first, knowing your why. So tell us why why is so important for creating, you know, financial sustainability.

C (16:03)

Right. Well, I think it again, it comes back down to lifestyle and being able to maintain that and protect that to some degree of being able to understand about cash flow and the importance of that. You know, one of the things that I know again in working with counselors and therapists that are just starting, the biggest thing that they're worried about is getting the referrals they need. And one of the things that, and you guys know this just from your own practices and in what you teach, having that, that solid referral base and those solid referral sources kind of protects that cash flow to some degree and being able to maintain that. But I'm sorry, I'm getting off track here. Katie. What.

B (17:00)

Curious. I know you talked like about money shame, like being in the profession that we're in. What's interesting is I think you have the trifecta. You were raised by a pastor, you're a clergy person yourself, and you guys work in a, the funeral business.

A (17:11)

So.

B (17:12)

And you're a therapist. So I imagine there's so much that you had to work through. Do you think therapists or the therapists that you work with, do you find them having like shame and, or guilt of the. This is the lifestyle I want to live and this is what I need to support that lifestyle. And oh, that would mean I have to charge this much or like what do you find in the therapist that you work with?

C (17:32)

Yeah, yeah, I think that's very true. I think one of the, you know, the other thing too, just where, where I live this part of the country, I'm in the Appalachian region of the country and there's a lot of poverty in this area. And one of the mindsets, and particularly maybe therapists that have come out of maybe financial struggles, there's some shame around having money itself. I mean, just, you know, it's kind of like you don't want to be that rich kid kind of, kind of way of thinking about things and so being able to help people kind of overcome that and that it's okay to have money. And it's not so much, you know, money is just a vehicle. It's just the stuff that we need to get things that we want in life. And I think really the starting place, like we were talking about the why is you've got to first kind of think about what is it that you want. You know, if you want a four or five bedroom house or a mansion or whatever, that's great if that's what you want. But is that what you truly want? So really, I think Starting with that. Why? Of understanding what it is that you want and then knowing. Creating a path to get there. Money is money, and I think a lot of times we put it is a value because we've placed value on it. But in and of itself, you know, I can tell clients, your feelings are just feelings. You know, what you feel is what you feel, and it's a matter of what you do with it that really matters.

A (19:15)

There's so many times I've wanted to jump in this conversation, but then it's gone in a different direction, and I'm like, oh, I want to comment on that. I want to comment on that. And that's one of the interesting aspects. When we're actually doing this virtually, I can't just, like, nudge Katie and be like, hold on, let me jump in.

B (19:28)

That's true. You can do your finger.

C (19:30)

You can be like that.

A (19:31)

Yep, I'm jumping in. Gosh, there's so many places I want to go in this conversation, and it is so important to explore your relationship with money, because if you're not clear on that and you don't know, you know, if you're not focused on your money mindset, it will pop up in so many ways that you don't even realize. I can remember going through the graduate program and knowing that I wanted to be in private practice because I knew the lifestyle that I wanted to live and that working in community mental health was not going to be able to provide that. When I was working in community mental health, I had to work, like, you know, five nights a week in a restaurant trying to make ends meet, because you just can't survive on that down here. It's so expensive, the cost of living. And so when I knew I was going to go into private practice because I wanted to be able to afford the lifestyle and to be more profitable, honestly, I felt guilty about that, and that was something that I felt shameful about. I was getting these messages from other therapists and from even graduate professors saying, like, you can't. You don't go in this field to make money. You can't make money in this field. You got into this field to make a difference. And I was really kind of like, rebelling against that and just believing that, why does it have to be either, or can it be both? Can't we make money while making a difference? And so often as therapists, we put ourselves back on the, you know, on the background, our needs in the background, because we're focus on the client's needs and we're Caring professionals. And like you were saying earlier, compassionate, really sometimes can feel guilty for charging what we're worth and even determining that. I can remember when I first started in private practice over 12, 13 years ago, just picking a number out of the sky, like having no idea what to actually charge and charging $80 per session when I was first starting out. And then I quickly learned that while I was in business that I wasn't going to be able to sustain all of my overhead expenses and everything else charging that rate. So then actually looking at the numbers and creating a business plan and deciding, okay, here's the lifestyle I want to live, here's what I need to cover all my expenses, here's what I need to be able to take some sick time and vacation time and all of that. Once I was able to reorganize and look at the numbers and allow the numbers to really inform what I was charging, it changed everything. And that's something. I just wanted to comment on that because it is something that is so important. So how do you help therapists with this aspect of really determining their rates?

C (22:11)

Yeah, yeah, that's to kind of backtrack just a little bit. You know, I was almost wanted to shout Amen when you were saying that.

B (22:22)

Amen. Let's do it. Amen.

A (22:23)

Amen.

B (22:25)

Preach.

C (22:26)

Yeah, that'll preach, as they say. But yeah, I was. That was the same message I was given. And I still see it today, just on social media, you know, and then different LinkedIn groups and that sort of thing. You know, oh, you'll never make any money as a therapist. You know, don't, you know, don't go into this profession. If you want to make money, do something else. And I think that's just a myth. So. But, yeah, but the starting place, I think with all of this, of really trying to learn how to know what to charge, know all of that is to, I like to say, work backwards. You know, all of us maybe has a salary figure, figure in mind of what we would like to make. And I think just start with that and then figure out, you know, you would add to that whatever your operating costs are in your, in your practice. You know, we've got to maintain an office. We've got to be able to have phones and computers and software and do advertising, all of those kinds of things. And to get those figures, what you want to pay yourself, what it costs to operate, and then just simply divide that by how much you want to work, you know, how many sessions a week would you ideally like to have? And so and then what you would need to charge per session in order to get that. I mentioned, I mentioned at the beginning, I've got this financial analysis guide that's, you know, freebie that I've got for people that kind of walks you through that process of thinking about, you know, just start working backwards from, really from. Okay, let's look at my. Why what is my. What is my lifestyle? You know, what does it cost to maintain my lifestyle? Either maintain what I have or increase it, you know, wherever you are with that and then work backwards from that and play with the numbers and do the numbers. That's the starting place from a practical standpoint. And then setting. I think the other thing too is if you want to increase your lifestyle, want to increase your income, is to make incremental goals towards that. I think it's, you know, I don't think there's truly a get rich quick scheme that's sustainable. Certainly there's people and you can see that all the time.

B (25:05)

My thought was it's sustainable in prison.

C (25:08)

Yeah, yeah, right.

B (25:10)

Those are usually the get Rick get rich quick schemes.

C (25:13)

That's really interesting. But I think it's just making those small incremental changes along the way that leads to sustainable and lasting growth with your practice. Yeah, yeah.

B (25:28)

So I know we're running out of time.

C (25:30)

Oh, wow. Already. Yeah. Yeah.

B (25:33)

So this is great. So I love, I just kind of want to recap some of the things that you share is really knowing your, your why, why you want what you want. And I know for me, like sometimes I'll say, well, it's the money, but it's really not the money. Right. My why is really freedom and convenience. Like, that's what drives me.

C (25:47)

Yes.

B (25:48)

Having the freedom to live the lifestyle I want, but also the convenience to live it the way that I want, like, that's really important. I remember we went to Disney. I don't know if it was last January, the January before. So my thought, my thought was, oh, this is perfect. All the kids went back to, to school. We're going to go to Disney for the day. Fantastic. It's going to be. The park's going to be really slow. Well, I choose the one day in January that's, you know, Martin Luther King weekend. That means the kids have three days off and that means the parks are busy. So we get up to the thing and we have to pick up our tickets and we have to wait an hour in line to actually get our tickets. So I was like, I don't want to do this Nevermind, it's okay. I'll come back another day. And to me, like, the convenience of being able to live life on my terms when everyone else is working in or in school was important. So really knowing your why and why, that is important. You know, Kate and I talk a lot about your why for your business and your practice. And you're talking about like your why for you, right? Living your dream lifestyle. That's another thing you really talked about, knowing those numbers and being brutally honest. Don't lie to yourself. The numbers don't lie. They're great, they're helpful. You guys have heard we've been talking about profit first, so definitely check out the rest of the podcast with that. So you'll check out Warden's podcast and Michael McCallowitz will be on our podcast soon, so you'll be able to check out that as well. So, Gordon, any final words of advice you want to share with our audience in regards to building a practice that's financially sustainable?

C (27:11)

Yeah, I think like you said, Kati was just being brutally honest with yourself and really just kind of looking at your numbers in a way. I think a lot of times we tend to want to bury our head in the sand. Just kind of like, I'd rather not know. But I think if we can do that and we can begin to make a. Get a handle on it and being able to learn as much as you can about finance, learn as much as you can about how to manage money, invest money, all of those kinds of things will go a long way in helping you kind of build and grow from there. On average, most people that go into private practice, you know, I think it can happen faster, but most people, it takes about two years to build a practice to a point where it's truly sustainable. Now that can, you can increase that curve with, you know, some, you know, laser focused marketing and all that kind of thing. But I think like we've said already, and it's maybe a broken record here, but start with your why. So start with, you know, start with where you are, the lifestyle that you want to be, want to have, and work towards that.

B (28:29)

Awesome. And I know we talked about your financial analysis guide and we'll put the link to that on our show notes page so you guys don't have to figure out where it is. But if, Gordon, if people wanted to get in touch with you, what's one way that they can get in touch with you?

C (28:40)

Sure, they can. Just first of all, they can visit my website and also podcast@practiceoftherapy.com and also you can email me@gordonacticeoftherapy.com and I love chatting, chatting with folks. I'm on. I'm on Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn and sometimes on Pinterest. And so you.

B (29:04)

What are you doing on Pinterest, Gordon? Well, you know, main reasons for Pinterest.

C (29:08)

They say, well, my daughter is a Pinterest addict, so part of it. She's constantly sending me stuff to look at. But also I just know a lot of therapists hang out on Pinterest.

B (29:23)

Interesting. Is there, like, when you're on Twitter, you're tweeting. Is there a word for Pinterest? Are you Pinterest? Oh, that's okay.

A (29:32)

Like winning.

B (29:34)

So Kate got me into French martinis. So Monday night after I got.

A (29:38)

I'm such a bad influence.

B (29:39)

You are such a natural.

C (29:40)

Martinis. What's in that?

B (29:42)

Delicious and refreshing.

A (29:43)

So they're vodka.

B (29:45)

Vodka, pineapple juice, Chambord and with a champagne floater.

C (29:49)

Oh, wow.

A (29:50)

Just light on the Chambord. You just want it really light pink. Yeah.

B (29:54)

So I came home and I was like, let's have French martinis and design our bathroom from Pinterest. So that's what we.

C (29:59)

Oh, wow. Wow. I'm not too much into those frou frou drinks. I'm a scotch guy myself.

B (30:04)

Ah, cool. Well, Courtney, it's been a pleasure to have you on our podcast and Startup Nation.

C (30:11)

Yeah, thank you so much.

A (30:13)

Thank you so again.

C (30:15)

All right, well, do it again.

B (30:17)

Thanks so much, Startup Nation, for joining us on another episode of the Private Practice Startup podcast. You'll want to listen next week as we talk to Travis Hornsby. If you have a six figure, not private practice, but six figure student loan or combined loans, and you're looking to get out of them or get rid of them as fast as you can can, which is perfect for this topic that we've been talking about. You'll definitely want to check out that podcast. So join us next week with that, Startup Nation. It's been a pleasure to have you here with us. Don't forget, we're always on Facebook, so you can check us out at the Private Practice Startup on Facebook. So have a fantastic and amazing day and we'll catch you next time.

A (30:55)

See you next time. Thanks again, Gordon.

C (30:58)

Thanks, guys. It's a lot of fun.

A (31:06)

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

C (31:29)

SA.