Dr. Kate Campbell (2:46)

What's up, guys?

Katie Lemieux (2:47)

Woo hoo.

Katie Vernoy (2:48)

That was awesome. Thank you.

Katie Lemieux (2:50)

Well, thank you for the second time. We're editing out the first time, but thank you. I appreciate that.

Katie Vernoy (2:56)

Yeah.

Katie Lemieux (2:57)

So Kurt, for the second time, is now surrounded by the three Katies because Kate and I know your guys podcast and amazing.

Katie Vernoy (3:04)

We've got this podcast crossover thing on pointe. Yes, very nice.

Katie Lemieux (3:10)

I'm almost like, is it the four corners or the five corners? Like Utah, Colorado, what are the states that all connect?

Katie Vernoy (3:16)

I think it's four corners.

Katie Lemieux (3:17)

Four. So this is the Katie's corner.

Katie Vernoy (3:20)

Yes, yes.

Katie Lemieux (3:23)

And you're just nestled in there, Kurt.

Curt Whithelm (3:25)

I guess I'll claim Colorado if I get a choice out of the four.

Katie Lemieux (3:30)

It's yours.

Katie Vernoy (3:31)

Sold.

Dr. Kate Campbell (3:33)

I was saying it was so nice to meet you guys in person at the summit and be on your podcast and have you on ours. I remember you saying vaguely, there's a hashtag. You guys have a hashtag for the modern therapist problems, right?

Katie Vernoy (3:46)

Yes, yes. Hashtag ModernTherapistProblems.

Dr. Kate Campbell (3:48)

Oh, that's it. I have a good memory.

Katie Vernoy (3:50)

Yes, you do.

Dr. Kate Campbell (3:51)

Awesome. So we're gonna talk all about those problems today. Tell us a little bit more about the modern therapist.

Curt Whithelm (3:59)

So this really started with Katie and I just kind of having this idea that everything that we're taught in grad school has kind of this error of 1970s. You need to be hidden away from view therapy. And it really isn't being Translated into the 21st century with things like social media. And especially as today's therapists are growing up with whatever their angsty teenage social media history is that's available out to everybody. But the difference between the private blank slate therapists that we were taught to be versus the continuum out to this very public advocacy of being able to promote mental health and mental health awareness, that we kind of blend in between this public and very private life. And with that comes some very modern therapist problems. And we started the hashtag with kind of this idea of unique situations that therapists get into, like being stuck in the back of an Uber and having the Uber driver find out you're a mental health professional and you've got 40 minutes of traffic to sit through and are now hearing somebody's life story.

Katie Lemieux (5:09)

So is that one of your personal stories, Kurt?

Curt Whithelm (5:11)

I no longer offer that I'm a therapist when I'm over.

Dr. Kate Campbell (5:16)

I do the same thing when I'm on a flight. I do not tell anybody I'm a therapist. When I'm going to be stuck with someone that I don't know for a long period of time, I don't share.

Katie Vernoy (5:24)

Yeah, it's so hard because I think there's a piece of this where we want to also decrease mental health stigma and really amplify our profession so that therapists do get visibility because we were so blank slate. But then when we're stuck with the actual person in front of us saying, like, hey, we really would love to talk to you about our, you know, Aunt Matilda and the problems that she's having, and we need more advice and, wow, how do you do this every day? It just, it's one of those things where we have to balance our own self care with the visibility of our profession.

Dr. Kate Campbell (6:00)

I've learned my lesson the hard way too many times. And so now I just sit back with my book and mind my own business.

Katie Vernoy (6:07)

Absolutely.

Katie Lemieux (6:09)

So what are some modern therapist problems that you guys have actually had?

Katie Vernoy (6:13)

Well, I had one that was kind of funny. You know, I do telehealth. I also do a lot of consulting via Zoom, which is what we're all on right now. And I find that living in the middle of nowhere is not great when WI Fi goes down and all of a sudden, like, you've got a client in like 20 minutes, and you're like, zooming down the hill to your office in order to be able to see your client. Like, there's like, if I have no WI Fi, I have nothing. I can't call people. I can't do anything. And so the fact that I, you know, want to be an online therapist, you know, sometimes gets in my way. Got it.

Katie Lemieux (6:49)

And yeah, you gotta. You definitely have to have backup because if it's. If it's like, issues on your end, you're like, what do I do about this?

Katie Vernoy (6:54)

Right.

Katie Lemieux (6:55)

But on the client's end, it feels easier. I remember time I was doing an online counseling session, and I just previously had one. And of course, Zoom does whatever Zoom wants sometimes. And so, like, I get on and my audio's not working, so the client is like, trying to talk to me, and he's looking at me feverishly. Like, I'm like, looking down and I'm like, pecking the keys and trying to like, feel like I'm sweating because I'm interrupting his time, and I'm like, well.

Dr. Kate Campbell (7:19)

What do we do?

Katie Lemieux (7:20)

And I'm like, I'm giving him the fingers of, like, I'll call you. Like, answer the phone. So that was a little anxiety provoking, for sure.

Katie Vernoy (7:28)

Yeah. I think technology allows us to help a lot more people, but there are definitely the downsides of when technology doesn't work, it can be horrible. Yes.

Katie Lemieux (7:38)

Kurt, what about you? What's one of your modern therapist problems?

Curt Whithelm (7:41)

So in addition to my practice, I also teach at Pepperdine University and teach a couple of classes, but probably my favorite one is one called Careers in Advocacy and Mental Health. And so I actually get to bring a lot of these stories to the classroom as well. One of the issues that I run into, though, is that in being in this teaching space, that one of the problems is balancing out kind of the core faculty and this ideology that's been in place for a very long time with students that are 22, 23, 24, 25, that are just a completely different generation. And I, in my mid-30s, feel old compared to them. I. I'm the professor that's like, yes, Instagram is okay. Like, we can have kind of this space that we move into. And my therapist problem in this space is really being able to balance out the traditional values of our field with being able to encourage people to really embrace who they are. Now, where this actually plays out in my practice is I work a lot with teenagers and being able to bring some of what works with teenagers into the office. I now have parents sign a Nerf gun waiver to get where they allow me to shoot their kids with Nerf guns.

Katie Lemieux (9:03)

That's amazing. I tell that to couples all the time. I'm like, you guys should go put those sumo suits on and go, like, you know, wrestle each other or Nerf gun each other or whatever.

Katie Vernoy (9:12)

I love it.

Katie Lemieux (9:13)

Tell us more.

Curt Whithelm (9:16)

This really started out in working with kids with anxiety and being able to deal with anxiety in the moment. And I remember the first kid that this kind of came up with, that he was just not responding to a bunch of other kind of therapy techniques. And so I pulled the Nerf gun out of. Out of my shelves, and I said, all right, we're gonna put this on a scale of 1 to 10. I am going to shoot you with this Nerf gun. How nervous are you right now? And we worked through a bunch of coping strategies of how you get from 10 down to 1. And then I was like, I'm really Glad that worked because if it didn't, that could have really gone sideways.

Katie Vernoy (9:53)

Yeah, it's hard not to mindful when you've got a Nerf gun pointed at you.

Katie Lemieux (10:00)

I love it. Tell us some more. I'm liking these stories.

Katie Vernoy (10:03)

I think the big thing that I've seen, and this is kind of that balancing of the current with the traditional is that there's these conversations that we'll start having with folks because when you step out in a bigger way, and I'm sure you had some of these conversations with Ernesto last week, but like when you step out in a bigger way, there's going to be a presence that you bring to the room. We have one of our guests that came on and who's going to be at our conference in October. She does all these videos on how to take care of teens. Jack Sanderson. She's a psychotherapist. And when you talk with her, it's so clear that it's a modern therapist problem with her colleagues. But clients, parents love these videos, get a sense of who she is and they're able to walk into the room and start working with her almost immediately. Like the, the relationship, the expectations, all of that happens in the Google search. But then all of our colleagues are like, oh, I can't believe you're doing that. Why are you saying those things? That's too much like that's over the top. And I get that too in a lot of ways, like, oh my gosh, you're so self promoting or you know, those kinds of things. And so it's our colleagues that sometimes are the ones that become our modern therapist problem, where when we step out in that way, all of a sudden we start getting these other conversations that happen with our colleagues. And so trying to kind of lead these conversations like Kurt and I do in our little space, it's also kind of navigating these old school therapists that are like, well, I don't know, I just don't think it's appropriate for me to have a Facebook account or, you know, I don't necessarily want to join any Facebook groups that I might have a client in. And it's like, wait a second. Like, you know, if you're going to treat any people like you're going to have to interact with them in public spaces and really learning how to talk about those public spaces as social media is now a public space. So you may interact with clients there, you may interact with your therapist there, you may interact with a lot of people there. And I think that's the part where when we get to that space, it's like, we know how to navigate it. It's just that it's technology and it freaks people out.

Katie Lemieux (12:16)

I also assume a lot of people are very ethic conscious and what can I do? What shouldn't I do? And I know for me, like, I love to read long and ethics and really. And that's a lot. So I can understand and play in the loophole, so I can understand what the parameters and guidelines are and then play appropriately. You know, I know that there's always like a lot of talk about like testimonials and things like that, but people forget that they can get testimonials from their colleagues and things like that. And if a client offers you a testimonial that's on their own accord and you didn't ask for it, well, great. I just think it's great marketing. I remember when this was a long time ago and it's actually a part of our paperwork because a lot of what Kate and I have created in our paperwork with the laws and ethics, our own experiences. And I remember, you know, this was when I was kind of newer in a private practice and I had posted on my Facebook business page, you know, what do you do for self care? And one of my clients was like, oh, I scheduled a session with you. And I'm like, oh my God. I was like, wait a second. I didn't break her confidentiality. I'm required to hold her confidentiality. But she decided to post that. And so it was like it was taking that moment to just like take a breath, think through it. But of course it's like, oh my gosh, my. My clients identifying herself as a client. But yeah, that on her own accord. And so now it's a paperwork of like, hey, if you decide to, you know, say something, awesome, great marketing for me. I'm not asking you, but that's cool. Thank you very much. So it's, it's being able to navigate those situations, inform clients, but then also kind of be okay with that stuff. Right? I know I go into like the shame hole really fast. Like I did something wrong here. You know, that's like where I go. But then when I get that logical brain kicking back in, usually I think through it. I'm like, no, I'm okay if they comment.

Dr. Kate Campbell (13:52)

And they do so at their own risk.

Katie Vernoy (13:54)

Yes, yes. And I think that's the part that's really important is being able to identify what are the clinical implications and how do we actually have those conversations or proactively take care of it. Like it sounds like in your guys paperwork packet. That's there. That's awesome. And I think it's something where there's like the practical. What do I feel comfortable with. There's also the what's clinically appropriate for my clients. But then it also goes to the profession. And I think that's the part that's really hard because if we're like, oh, well, you should have deleted that comment because, you know, you don't want your client to inadvertently break their confidentiality. And, you know, people will go to that space too, and somebody can decide to do it or not do it. But if we delete that comment, we're now silencing our client. We're also, you know, increasing mental health stigma. And so it's like there is. The complexity of how we live now in the public eye is just overwhelming because there's so many different ways. And as therapists, we're expected to navigate this in a very different way. And I think so many people have just decided, I can't do it. And so it's exciting to meet other people who are actually willing to play in the loopholes or at least think about it consciously and be able to ground all these things in some sort of law ethic, clinical efficacy versus, well, I don't like it, so I'm not going to do it.

Curt Whithelm (15:10)

And I've served as a subject matter expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences for the last few years and have dived really deep into California laws and ethics around this kind of stuff. And I've really come to recognize that the basis of a lot of these laws are written by old people. And, you know, we tend to be a profession that is dominated by people who may be in their second or third or later career aspects, and they're the ones with the times to develop these kinds of rules and these ethics. But I don't want somebody who's 75 years old to be writing about social media as ethic when I mean, and really this is where you talk about Ernesto. And I am, you know, fully versed into the teenage world. I'm like, your workshops aren't speaking about TikTok yet. And he's like, what's that? I'm like, if Ernesto is out of touch in social media, what are the people who are two and three generations older than him?

Katie Vernoy (16:08)

Yeah.

Dr. Kate Campbell (16:10)

Yeah.

Katie Lemieux (16:10)

So I'm curious, like, what. What are some of the questions and the conversations that you guys have when you're talking about these Modern therapists problems.

Curt Whithelm (16:18)

I think the big one that really got us thinking in this space is we were at the Evolution of Psychotherapy conference when we were first promoting therapy reimagined 2018 and kind of the launch of our podcast. And as we were talking about modern therapist problems, somebody came up and said, when are you going to do an episode about dating as a therapist?

Katie Lemieux (16:37)

Oh.

Curt Whithelm (16:38)

And Katie and I both looked at each other and said, neither one of us have an expertise in this because we were both married long before the therapy world. So it took us about six or so months to really find the appropriate guest to do it. But our audience just reacted so well to that. As far as, like, these are the conversations about therapists lifestyles, not necessarily about the clinical aspects of what we're doing, and that it's okay to have a sense of humor about our field. It's okay to be frustrated with these artificial parameters that we put around ourselves that really make it to where we can be vulnerable with each other about problems that are really unique to the way that we face the world. And I think that that's really been the wonderful part of our community, is that there's a safety of we can be whole people. We can be people who are complex, flawed individuals who are there to serve and help others. And we can be good at our jobs and not have to be perfect and hide behind this perfect lacquer that we are taught to project out there.

Dr. Kate Campbell (17:47)

What was the perspective with your guest expert about online dating, with the therapist being on online dating and potentially seeing their clients on the platforms and their clients seeing them.

Curt Whithelm (17:58)

So she was actually somebody that I went to grad school with who'd been writing a blog for quite a while about just dating as a mental health professional. And her blog had kind of died a couple of years before. So I messaged her and said, hey, we're doing this podcast. You've been kind of open about your dating before. And she shared a bunch of different experiences as far as needing to kind of hide behind her profession for a while, as, you know, calling herself a consultant or just working for herself or.

Katie Vernoy (18:28)

I think at one point she even said she was unemployed to see what kind of conversations that brought up. It was pretty funny, actually.

Curt Whithelm (18:36)

But she talked about how therapists tend to naturally be better listeners, and so we tend to attract people who talk a lot more as partners and that it's just kind of the space that we enter into as a professional mind, but still just permeates into our private lives as well. And then she Talked about, you know, all of the online dating apps and potentially running into clients and just kind of. And this tells you how long it's been since I've dated whichever way that you're supposed to swipe people that you.

Katie Lemieux (19:08)

I think we're all in the same boat.

Katie Vernoy (19:10)

Yeah. Yeah. But I think there was some practical advice, too, on kind of what to include in a profile and whatnot, and also how you might bring that up to a client who is single and dating. And I think there's definitely therapists who are in that space where they're single and dating, and they also really have an expertise because of their interests, because of their own life experiences. And so they end up with people who are single and dating in their practice. And so it's looking at. In those spaces, how do you have those conversations with the clients? How do you make sure you're holding the boundaries and still being effective as an online dater? Because, like, if you completely mask yourself, you're not going to get good matches. But if you put too much of your. Then all of a sudden your clients might feel really uncomfortable. So it was. It was an interesting conversation. You know, Kurt and I, it was a while ago, and we both have been married for a million years, so it was something where we were just like, really? And what next?

Dr. Kate Campbell (20:05)

It's pretty fascinating. I had a therapist at my office ask me like, a couple weeks ago. She was like, oh, I'm having such a hard time dating and connecting with someone, but I really don't want to put myself on the online apps, because I did. I was on them and then I saw my client on them and they said they were a match for me, and I just like, shut down the whole thing. And I was like, oh, man, I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that. I would be so stressful having to navigate that area in that world and like, putting yourself out there, but not so much that your clients could potentially come across your profile and see all this personal stuff. Just really awkward.

Katie Vernoy (20:41)

Well, I think it's the same thing with social media, right? Like, if we all have personal profiles and we all have personal professional profiles. But even my Facebook personal profile is very curated at this point. Like, I. If I'm going to have a real deep personal conversation, it's going to be in person or, you know, in a more of a private space. It's not going to be on my public Facebook, you know, that's just not going to happen. And I think a lot of therapists, especially Kind of the digital natives are like, but I have everything on there and what do I do now? Because I have all this stuff that's there. And I was like, well, you know, there are privacy things and you can clean up your profile and you also can shut down one profile and start a new one. Like, there's different ways to create that professional personal Persona, but I mean, maybe this is showing my age, but I think that there's a little bit of like creating an online presence and a personal brand in every space that can be potentially public. And so, you know, kind of having your rants and a lot of your personal stuff that doesn't really go with your brand doesn't make sense. But I think a lot of people just see it as very binary. It's like, this is my private space and so no one can see me here. It's like, well, that's not true. People can take screenshots. I mean, like, we really just have to think about where we are in a public space because all spaces, you know, I'm repeating myself, but all spaces are public. You know, let's just take a quick break.

Dr. Kate Campbell (22:07)

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Katie Lemieux (22:59)

Ton of money getting your degree, but.

Dr. Kate Campbell (23:00)

You weren't taught the necessary branding, marketing and entrepreneurial skills needed to be successful in private practice.

Katie Lemieux (23:07)

We get it. We've been there. We're Kate and Katie from the private practice startup. We've spent a crazy amount of money and over a decade learning and perfecting a proven marketing strategy that works. Let us teach you the step by step proven system to help you fill your practice with the clients you love and live the life you've always dreamed of. Visit private practicestartup.com look for the e course tab to learn more and see the amazing results our coaches have been achieving. Katie, I think you bring up a really great point, because I have a friend who is a professional, and sometimes I see on the personal page is that she's ranting about, like, clients or frustrations. And it's like, oh, don't you think that someone's gonna see that? And this is not a therapist, but someone might see that. And so you really have to be aware of what it is that you're sharing. And then this goes back to, like, really living authentically, right? So if you're authentically who you are in the room and your personal and your professional are the same, then it's just kind of easy. And then you're not gonna be posting things that you have to be aware of and stuff. So I think that's really important to look at that. And Kurt, you said something like, in the beginning, A lot of times I feel like. So People magazine has this section, like, stars. They're just like, us, right? And it's almost like, stars, they're at Starbucks or look, they're grocery shopping. Sometimes I feel that way about our profession is because a lot of times, clients, even though we might be very authentic, they project what they believe about us. And then it's almost like, I don't want to disappoint them if they see me out, right? Like, I thought Katie was a beer drinker. Oh, she's drinking martini. I didn't think so. Or, yeah, she was a vegan. Look, she's eating a steak, right? Like, it's like, I don't want to disappoint them. So I think that's a weird, odd thing. And then, of course, you know, those situations, I'm sure we've all had them, like, some way somehow being in close proximity to a current client, a last client, and I was at the vet one day, and a past client had walked in and, like, almost sat next to me. I don't know if they, like, recognized that I was there immediately, but it was all, like, really uncomfortable. And then my spouse was talking to me about something personal, and I'm just like. Like, we have this code. It's just lsu. That means, like, someone in the vicinity is a client or past client. So don't say anything else. Like, if it's personal, just shut up.

Katie Vernoy (25:14)

Yeah, well.

Curt Whithelm (25:15)

And I think so much of, you know, living authentically and getting your ideal clients is often going to be coming from people in your space, People that have the same interests and hobbies as you. And if you're doing it right, you're more likely going to end up crossing paths with these clients, whether it's out at a concert, it's at a sporting event, whatever it might be. That these are things that if we really want to take down the stigma on both sides, is that we do get to see that we're all the same. And I think one of the areas where this has really come up with a couple of colleagues who've reached out to me recently is dealing when our clients die and really having to struggle with that kind of grief that is unique to therapists, that we are allowed to experience it and be able to handle it. But it's in such a unique way that can often parallel what's going on with the family and really put us into our own place. And we've got a great episode that's coming out here on our show about just dealing with this. But talking about being authentic, about really owning into that space, is really where there's a lot of fun places that Katie and I gravitate to, because our way of dealing with our lives is humor. But there's also a really serious side to this too. But we're really happy to have this community that's developing around being authentic with what we're going through at all points in our career.

Katie Lemieux (26:49)

Yeah.

Katie Vernoy (26:50)

And, you know, I love that you.

Katie Lemieux (26:51)

Touch on that, because there is that part of our profession that's difficult. Unfortunately. I had client die by suicide. And I just remember, like, going through that and experiencing that. And, you know, you really need. And it's great to reach out to other therapists because they get your world, you know, and. And other people don't always get your world. I know I've gotten asked a bunch of times. It's finally ceased by my spouse, like, well, why can't you just talk to so and so why can't you just see them? You don't understand the laws and rules of our profession. You know what I mean? So the ability to have a great community of therapists to support each other through the silly stories and the funny stories, but also the really difficult times that it's kind of, we have to be quiet and confidential and really can't sometimes share the way that. That we would want to share. So I love that you guys are creating more and more of that community, even though we all have that already, but saying like, hey, it's okay, and let's lean on each other for those things. So that's awesome. What are your guys final thoughts?

Dr. Kate Campbell (27:49)

What do you guys want People to.

Katie Lemieux (27:50)

Take away from your message today.

Katie Vernoy (27:53)

I think really that being a modern therapist is being yourself and not forgetting that you're still a therapist. Because I think that there's a whole spectrum of behavior that I've seen with therapists across the country. And there's folks who are very deeply. I am a therapist. I'm a blank slate. You. You will not know me. And there are people that are at the very, very opposite extreme, kind of with boundary lists. This is who I am. Accept me or not. And I think there is a place for all of us to come together and find our own comfort level and find our own brand and find our own st. But being able to be authentically ourselves, grounding ourselves in clinical efficacy as well as the law and ethics of our profession.

Katie Lemieux (28:41)

I gotta give you the authenticity cowbell.

Katie Vernoy (28:42)

Now.

Katie Lemieux (28:47)

Kurt, what about you? What do you want people to.

Curt Whithelm (28:49)

It's a slightly different version of that, but it's. We're what makes therapy works. And there's so much about science that's about pushing us towards this medical model that is to remove therapists. And all of the evidence still ends up pointing to we're what makes it work. It's how we sit in the room, it's how we interact with our clients that can't necessarily be translated through a soap note to somebody else that we're the ones who are there to help create change, and the better that we can own that. That authenticity piece. Maybe I'm just clamoring for my own little cowbell here, but.

Dr. Kate Campbell (29:25)

Go ahead.

Katie Lemieux (29:25)

Go ahead.

Curt Whithelm (29:26)

But we're the ones that make it work. And we're the ones. Ones that really dry fried rice.

Dr. Kate Campbell (29:32)

Yay.

Katie Lemieux (29:33)

Ernesto said after the conference or the summit, he actually has a full box of them. So if you wanted more, you can just ask him.

Katie Vernoy (29:40)

Yeah, we'll just have to. We'll have to, like, stock Ernesto and get our own authenticity cowbell bell.

Katie Lemieux (29:47)

So I know that you guys have a giveaway for our audience today. What is that?

Katie Vernoy (29:51)

So we have our conference in October. It's 18th and 19th in Universal City. It's right across from Universal Studios out here in Los Angeles. And we would love to have some more modern therapists join us out here. And so we created a promo code just for your audience. Startup, all caps, and you get $40 off the full conference ticket. And we've got some great folks that are coming out. Ernesto is going to be there. I'm sure there's other folks that you guys have interviewed that are going to be there. Just Talking about all the things that it takes to to navigate the moderntherapist problems.

Dr. Kate Campbell (30:27)

Nice.

Katie Lemieux (30:27)

Awesome.

Curt Whithelm (30:28)

And we've been able to steer the conference to where all of our workshops have ces, so we are approved all across the country through our partner. Simple practice to be able to offer wherever you may be coming from. So it actually meets your CE requirements too.

Katie Lemieux (30:44)

That's awesome. That's always important, right? So very cool. So thank you guys for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Katie Vernoy (30:51)

And so can I get the website?

Katie Lemieux (30:54)

Oh yeah, we're going to put it on the show notes, so don't worry about it too. But go ahead and give the website.

Katie Vernoy (30:57)

And so to find out more about the conference@second.therapyreimagineconference.com Perfect.

Katie Lemieux (31:04)

Awesome. Next week is going to be a surprise because we have a few people. We don't know who's going to be next though on the podcast. Just join us anyway because we're always bringing you great information and content.

Dr. Kate Campbell (31:16)

Yes. Let's take a moment for our superhero shout out for today's episode from Claudia. Working with Dr. Kate and Katie has been such a great experience. I'm honored to collaborate with them on different projects including the podcast and webinars. They are packed with knowledge and valuable tips and I look forward to continuing.

Katie Lemieux (31:36)

To listen in the future.

Dr. Kate Campbell (31:37)

Claudia Diaz Awesome. Thank you so much. For anybody who is listening to this podcast that you guys are enjoying the content, let us know. We'd love to hear how you guys are experiencing it. And if there's a topic that you haven't heard yet that you're dying to hear, please let us know because we would love to create that content for you. You guys are the reason that we're doing this and so we would encourage you to subscribe, rate and review our show. We always appreciate that. And yes, we'll look forward to seeing you guys on our next episode. And Katie and Kurt, thanks so much for being here.

Katie Vernoy (32:08)

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Katie Lemieux (32:10)

The Dating in Private Practice sounds like a fun podcast topic. We might have to steal that idea. So, Startup Nation, thank you for always allowing us to inspire you. From startup to mastery. Have an amazing, awesome and inspired day. Take care everybody.

Dr. Kate Campbell (32:23)

Bye everybody. Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

Katie Vernoy (32:40)

SA.