C (2:49)

It's like wrestling alligators, right?

B (2:52)

Oh, yeah, yeah. They're really strong.

A (2:55)

What are your wrangling techniques?

B (2:58)

Well, first of all, there's two of us. There's me and my husband. If it's just one of us running solo, there are no rules. It's whatever you can to, like, wrestle them into that and into their beds. So it's very in the moment.

A (3:13)

So you do what works in the moment. Awesome. So what. What is life like with two and a half year old twins? Just in general.

B (3:21)

Oh, man. I mean, it's wild. I mean, it's so fun. You know, they're at that age where they have, like, their little personalities and more opinions than they can verbalize. So it's so fun, but it's also so crazy. I mean, one melts down, the other melts down. They're best friends and best frenemies and, you know, pushing boundaries and trying to figure out how to regulate themselves. So in general, it's crazy, but it's so fun most of the time.

A (3:48)

And what's interesting is actually Sarah has joined us for our first round of our Marketing E course in coaching. And so it's funny because we get on the podcast today and we're here on Zoom, and she's all, like, done up and her hair's down and she has clothes on because usually she's dodging in and out of, like, hitting the mute button and trying to run away from her toddlers. And, you know, when she, you know, wants to share something or coaching her, she, like, turns it on and we hear the toddlers in the background. So that's just mom life, right?

B (4:16)

Yeah. They sometimes like to watch you guys.

A (4:20)

Oh, yeah.

B (4:21)

Yeah. So we'll have the video off, but they'll sometimes, like, watch and they're interested. And sometimes I have to, like, run and hide, like, behind a closed door to talk. But we make it work mostly.

A (4:34)

Yeah. So, Sarah, how long have you been in practice?

B (4:38)

So I've been in private practice for a little over two years now.

C (4:42)

Tell us a little bit about your schedule and how you balance the mom role and then also having a group practice.

B (4:49)

Yeah, that's a great question. So even before I signed up for the marketing E course, I knew that I had to have my ideal schedule, that it was going to be so important to balancing motherhood and my practice. So right away, I kind of came up with a schedule that worked for me, that worked for like my husband's work schedule, that worked for our childcare. And I really had to stick to that. And so right out of the gate I had my ideal schedule in mind and that's what I stick to.

C (5:21)

Tell us what that ideal schedule is.

B (5:25)

So back when we first developed, it really was dependent on childcare and it's just kind of stayed that way. So I work Tuesdays and Wednesdays from about noon to 7:00'. Clock. Kind of trying to drop my 6:00 appointments right now. And then I come home. I still have the opportunity to eat dinner and then put my kids to bed on those nights. And that's really important. Me, I wanted to be there for the bedtime rituals and then I do my admin work the other days of the week. So you would be surprised what I can accomplish in a two hour nap time.

C (6:01)

It's a nap time empire.

B (6:03)

It is. I know. The day they drop their naps, like I was telling my mom yesterday, I don't know what I'm going to do. We'll have to cross that bridge when we get there. But I mean those are my productive hours. I'm. I'm running a group practice in nap time increments.

C (6:19)

My son is four and a half and he's still napping. And I'm hanging onto it for dear life because it's what you can get done in that two, two and a half hour period is priceless.

B (6:28)

Oh my gosh. Yes. I would gladly be okay if my kids napped until kindergarten.

A (6:34)

What's interesting, Sarah, is you said that you started private practice two years ago and your twins are two and a half. So you like literally started private practice when they were six months old.

B (6:43)

Wow. Yeah. Well, you know what's interesting is I had this concept before I got pregnant and I like had my llc, I had my website. I was like about to go out the day before I signed a lease. I found out not only was I pregnant, but I was pregnant with twins. And so I was like, oh, okay, we're pushing pause on this for a second. So I didn't sign the lease.

C (7:04)

I waited.

B (7:04)

And then about the time they're about two, three months old, I was like, okay, like I gotta go back to work. Like I want to go back to work. Getting a little stir crazy. Let's do this. And so I've technically been in existence for about three and a half years, but we pushed pause for a second so we kind of came back into it. And the beautiful thing is I already had the infrastructure already created before I had gotten pregnant.

C (7:31)

So I was able to really hit.

B (7:32)

The ground running right out of the gate, which was really nice.

A (7:36)

That's amazing. I mean, a lot of times, you know, I know that we've struggled in our own ways in private practice trying to figure it out. And it sounds like, did you get some, like, coaching or, like, how. How did you know what to do when you talk about your ideal schedule and that stuff? We had to learn.

B (7:51)

Yeah, no, I didn't know. I didn't know exactly what I was doing. I didn't know there was a word for that until we were sitting in our marketing course and I create your ideal schedule. I was like, oh, that's what I did. Okay, good for me.

C (8:04)

Kudos to you.

B (8:06)

Yeah, there's a name for that. So my husband is super awesome. He's an amazing support. He started his own little LLC to do some consulting work back in the day. So he knew how to help me get set up with the state. I had other, like, mentors in the therapy world that is able to reach out and be like, okay, how did you get set up with payroll? Like, who did you recommend for this and that? And so I really tapped into my network and my husband's knowledge base to get going. And he has a software development background, so he built my website. And, like, it was just a relatively smooth process, which I am so grateful for.

C (8:50)

You guys are kind of like the dream team.

B (8:53)

You know, he cut. He said that last night we were tinkering kind of with, like, another business idea, and he's like, we could do it. We could do it. I'm like. He's like, oh, who else can do it but us? I'm like, that's really great. Let's talk about time later. So, yeah, I mean, it worked out so great. He's got a really great business mind. I like to think I bring value to the table with my therapy mind. And so we make a really good team.

A (9:20)

Nice. What would you say is one of the most difficult things about not only being a mom, but a mom of twins, but also a business owner?

B (9:29)

I think it really is that balance of time. I mean, I could very easily get sucked into business. I mean, as I've been rewriting some content for my webpage or. Oh, I've recently gotten sucked in to developing infographics for rack cards for, like, community events. And it's really fun and kind of satisfying to sit on my computer and, like, get all the graphics and the statistics that I want on there so I could really get sucked into that. Day in, day out, I could get sucked into circuit. I love helping people. I find meaning in my job. I could easily do that. I love my kids and I could very. There are some days where I'm like, maybe I do want to be a stay at home mom. I really don't. But some days I think maybe I do. And so for me it's just really finding that balance between I have my time with my kids and that is precious. And I utilize that to its full potential. And then I set parameters around my business and my professional life so that I really can find joy in the balance.

C (10:30)

When I first became a mom and I was trying to balance having a group practice, having an online business and then being a new mom, I had a hard time with mom guilt. I know mom guilt's a very common thing. It's, it's. The struggle is real. And when I would be, I love what I do for work. I also love being a mom. And so it's like the two tear at each other sometimes. And when I first was navigating all of this, I would have so much guilt about, you know, if I wasn't at home and I was focusing on work, not being home for my son. And then when I was at home, what was I missing with work? And I had a really hard time kind of navigating that. And it took me a while to learn that. I'm wondering if you had any struggles in terms of your own journey with the mom guilt popping up.

B (11:13)

Oh yeah, for sure. I tell a lot of the women I work with, like, mom guilt should be like an actual DSM diagnosis. Like it is very real, it is pervasive and like, gosh, it really messes with you. And so I really did struggle with the mom guilt at first. And I have some like mantras I use to kind of help me manage that now. I mean, there are days where like it's just out of control and I can't do anything about it except for snuggle my kids and get through to the next day. But I remind myself that like in this moment, I am mom and that's what I'm doing in this moment. I am business owner Sarah, and that is what I'm doing in this moment. I'm therapist Sarah and that is what I'm doing. And so, but, and then, you know, I also recognize there's so much value to having other people in my kids lives too. You know, dad's home with them now and they're in this like daddy phase, which I'm pretty okay with. Especially in the mornings. They just want daddy. I'm like, that's okay. Like that's fine. And so like they get great dad time and then they have a babysitter and sometimes I feel really guilty that my kids are with a babysitter, but they love playing with her and she tosses them in the air and they play games and do play doh. And like they get a lot of value out of just hanging out and having fun with someone who might have like a little more energy than I do. And so I like to think that they're getting a lot of fun and well rounded experiences by not just being with me all day every day. I like how I manage it.

C (12:44)

Yeah, I like your mantras of how you give yourself permission to stay in the present and just be in that role in that moment and just focus on that. Because the other roles can just be there kind of like in your head fighting all the shoulds, you know. So that's a really cool suggestion for all the new moms out there.

A (13:02)

Curious what for? I think about like, you know, talking about boundaries and stuff like that. What are some of your like non negotiables when it comes to your kids and family and.

B (13:11)

Or business? Yeah, no, that's great. So I kind of categorize my boundaries into like professional, personal and business boundaries. So like business boundaries wise. I don't check my email on weekends. I, I don't, I ask my employees not to text me on weekends. If it's like a what we call a red flag, like you call me, you text me, you blow up my phone. Otherwise if it can wait, you email me. I don't let clients text me. I hold my no show rates. Like I try to value my time. I value my time more than ever. As a parent and as a business owner. I value my time. So I really try to make sure that. I try not to work unless it's nap time. I do check my emails, probably more than I would feel comfortable with.

C (14:03)

But.

B (14:06)

It'S just all about making sure that I am trying to stay in the present as much as possible. I have this honest Kate. This feels like really first worldy. But I have a separate cell phone for work. I know a lot of people like get like a separate phone number and keep it on the same phone but I couldn't do that because I was getting like texts and voicemails and it was just a lot. So I have a separate work cell phone that I check once a day.

A (14:29)

That's amazing.

B (14:31)

I thoroughly ignore it.

A (14:33)

No, that's great because, I mean, that's like a demonstration of clear boundaries and sometimes we actually need to create a physical boundary. Like, it's not enough to. To be like, okay, I'm not going to go on Facebook, but we'll take the app off your phone. You don't mean. If you're trying to create a boundary, sometimes we just have to do physical type boundaries. So before we go any further, let's.

C (14:48)

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A (15:49)

Ton of money getting your degree, but.

C (15:51)

You weren't taught the necessary branding, marketing and entrepreneurial skills needed to be successful in private practice.

A (15:57)

We get it. We've been there. We're Kate and Katie from the private practice startup. We've spent a crazy amount of money and over a decade learning and perfect a proven marketing strategy that works. Let us teach you the step by step proven system to help you fill your practice with the clients you love and live the life you've always dreamed of. Visit private practicestartup.com look for the e Course tab to learn more and see the amazing results our coaches have been achieving. So let's continue the conversation. So you're saying like, non negotiables about personal and work and what about some non negotiables? Well, you said work, what about personal family?

B (16:33)

So self care? I mean, we all talk about self care in grad school and it's like, or, you know, self care is kind of that trendy thing right now where it's all about like chocolate cake and bubble baths. But I really make sure I schedule my self care every evening. Like there's got to be a point where I turn off the computer, I stop designing my beautiful infographic cards and I decompress. Like I go watch a show or sometimes I might get caught up on my E. Marketing course or I do something every night and then on weekends because I'm able to, I guess clock out. Like I don't check my emails, I don't check my phone. I'm able to really be present. We go do something fun. I know for myself. I get so burned out when I'm not taking care of myself. And when I don't take care of myself, I'm a worse parent, I'm a worse business owner and I'm not as effective as a therapist. And so I've really come to realize that it's not just self care, it's not just bubble baths and chocolate cake. Like if I don't take time to just decompress and not be, just be me, just be Sarah. Not even mom, not wife, not business owner, not therapist. If I don't take time to be just Sarah, I'm not effective in any other area of my life.

C (17:46)

Over the past two and a half years, as you've been really working at that balance between mom and business and entrepreneur, what have been the biggest lessons that you've learned along the way?

B (18:02)

I think probably the biggest thing is that it's okay to hold boundaries. And I think everyone as therapist would be like, oh yeah, I hold boundaries like it's hard. You know, like you want to be a good boss, you want to be a good mom, you want to be a good therapist. And so, and we care, like that's our job, right? We care so much. So I think sometimes the practicality of setting boundaries is harder than it is in theory. And so I've gotten to the point where like I'll just say no and I'll just be direct about it. Like I don't want to waste other people's time, I don't want to waste my time. I'm kind, I'm respectful, but like I'm so much more comfortable saying no or establishing a boundary of hey. Like I don't do texts in the evenings because my time is precious. I watched that Brene Brown call to Courage recently and like the first sentence she said that just really struck me was time is our most precious, non renewable resource. And since I've had Kids and had my practice like that. That's so true. And so my time is so precious, so valuable and I want to make sure that I'm present and using it well. And I look, I want to be authentic and honest in that I don't always balance well. But I try. I try. And when I don't balance well, I feel it and immediately course correct.

A (19:27)

And how do you course correct? Like how do you recognize it and then what do you do to course correct?

B (19:31)

So I mean, I feel it. Like I get anxious. I start having nightmares about work. Do you guys ever have that?

C (19:37)

I used to, yes.

A (19:39)

I don't think I had early on in my career, but I wasn't a therapist yet. I was a case manager. But I will tell you, you, I used to have for anyone ever in the restaurant business. I used to have the weed dreams. So if you know what that is and you work in the restaurant, that's, that's like in the middle of the night where you wake up at 4am and you're like, I forgot to bring table 64 mustard. Those are the work dreams I used to have.

B (20:01)

Well, I, yeah, I don't have nightmares about mustard, but I definitely will sometimes have nightmares about like, oh my gosh, I forgot to print out extra releases of information and whatnot. So when I start feeling anxious, when I start feeling disconnected from my meaningful relationships, when I'm starting to get a little more anxious, when all I'm thinking about is work, like, oh my gosh, what about this? What about this? What about this? Probably more than anything, I physically feel it. And that's when I'm able to be like, okay, it's time to take a step back. It's time to invest in that self care. What can I delegate? What can I push off what needs to take priority today and then develop a plan from there? What do I need to do over the next few weeks to get this down to a more manageable level?

A (20:48)

What are some of the things that you've delegated in your business to have more personal time and more family time?

B (20:53)

Oh my gosh, Kate. Look, guys, I'm going to be, I'm going to totally admit this. I'm kind of a control freak. Like, I like things a certain way, but the best thing I've done for my business is delegate. And I feel so, so great about delegating. I've really found this like super awesome team. Be able to call them like, oh my gosh, this is going on. Can you take it? And they do. So I Have an amazing biller, I'm an amazing admin, I have amazing therapist. And so when stuff is going down I'm able to say, okay, you know, we got some stuff going on. Can you go handle xyz, can you go handle this? Can you go handle that? I'm going to go do this piece. And it really enables me to have more space to focus on what needs to be focused on and it really has helped my business grow.

A (21:39)

Gotcha. You know, it's interesting and like as you're talking about that stuff, I almost think of it's like being a parent, right. And an entrepreneur. It's really like the modern day it takes a village to raise a child, right. Because your village needs to be your team, right. Not only your spouse, if you have one or some significant other or family personally, but when you're an entrepreneur you do need a team because you can't do it all and you shouldn't do it all. And you know, if you are just starting out that really outsourcing and thinking about how to outsource and delegate is essential because that's going to help you grow and expand faster and faster. And you know, it's interesting like no matter how many like you know, conferences I attend or trainings I attend on business growth and development, you know, they're always talking about that is, you know, we come in as like the technician, right. The E Myth book, right. And we do all the things and then we get into the manager and find the entrepreneur. And the entrepreneur is someone who has systems that works for them so that they can remove themselves from their business. So you know, if you're in a place where either you're getting ready to have kids and you're entrepreneur or maybe you already have kids and you want to go into private practice or you're already in the middle of all of it and kind of thinking about, you know, how do I make this work for me? I really love like the things that you've talked about and you've talked about, you know, boundaries and self care is essential. And so you're referencing some folks of your team, but who else is your tribe and your people that really support you through this?

B (23:00)

Yeah, I mean obviously as I already mentioned, my husband is a huge support especially where, you know, at surface we kind of feel things. So sometimes I like have big feelings about business decisions. And he's like, okay, like let's think about this a little bit differently. So he's an amazing support. You know, we got this great babysitter who's been with us since I started my practice, two years. She loves my kids and my kids love her. And you know, I have great friends who are also therapists who help me talk through stuff. I have great mentors and colleagues. Like, I have so many resources and I just love that I have people in my life who will take the time to either help me find resources or help take things off my plate or help just listen to me when I'm like, oh my gosh, toddlers are crazy. And so have that in my professional life, I have that in my personal life. And then I just have that just as a therapist and having a good network of colleagues.

A (24:00)

And if you were to kind of now that hindsight being 20 20, if you were to go back, here you are, you're pregnant, you're thinking about starting a private practice, what might you do differently in the beginning?

B (24:11)

Oh my goodness. If anything, I mean, that's a really good question. I, I don't know if I can answer that because there are again, there are days where I don't know that I'm doing the exact right thing and there are days that I'm not balancing perfectly well and there are days where I forget to do self care until like 11 o' clock at night and I'm like taking deep breaths. And so I very much view this as a journey. And at some point maybe I'll be able to look back and be like, oh, I should have done this or that. But so far it's just been a wild ride. I'm holding on to the lap bar and so far things have gone well. If my kids end up in therapy in like 10 years because mom was gone two days a week and talked about marketing strategies and return on investments, then that's a different story. But right now I'm just holding on, I'm just enjoying the moment.

A (25:09)

I mean, if that's what they're in therapy for, then they're like on their way to being an entrepreneur. I think that's a good thing.

B (25:14)

Or they'll be in therapy because they were modeling on the playground for saying I feel.

A (25:23)

I love it too. Funny, I had another question for you and I completely forgot. Oh, one of the questions that I wanted you guys both to answer because I think a lot of times, you know, parents are thinking this who are also in businesses. You know, if you have a cancellation policy, so say you have like a 24 hour cancellation policy, but you're a parent too and your kid gets sick or needs you or something like that, and you have to cancel last minute. How do you guys now navigate that?

B (25:52)

So how I navigate it is we kind of have, like, a system of checks and balances. So first I go to my husband. What can you do to help out here? And sometimes he has a flexible schedule and he can come home. And then I don't have to worry about it. Sometimes he doesn't. And then we go to the babysitter. Hey, they're sick. How do you feel about this? Can you handle it? And then if that's not available, then I start begging my mom and my sister and whoever else might be around in laws to come help out. And then if we absolutely can't. My daughter was hospitalized about three, four weeks ago. And ultimately I call my admin. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't see clients. Will you please call help me out? And most of the time, people are so understanding. And so I just kind of go down the list, and if worse comes to worse, we cancel. But luckily, because I do have, like, a good network and a good tribe, I've really only had to do that, like, once or twice over the last couple years.

A (26:50)

Gotcha. So you got, like, a legit phone tree?

B (26:53)

Yeah, I really do.

A (26:55)

If not this, then this person. If not this person, then this person.

C (26:58)

Kate, how would you.

A (27:00)

How would you answer that question, Kate?

C (27:01)

Yeah, in case you guys are listening and you're wondering why I sound so strange today. I sound kind of froggish. Like a sexy frog, maybe. I don't know.

A (27:08)

I don't know if sexy seeing frog go together, but.

C (27:13)

I have been fighting a cold. But I really wanted to show up for this awesome podcast with Sarah today, and so. Excuse my voice. I've had a similar process to Sarah, and it's always stressful. It's gotten a little bit easier over time as I've lowered my caseload and I don't have as many clients. When I was seeing 20, 22 clients a week and having an online business and having baby at home, and when the baby would get sick, everything, you know, sometimes I just have to cancel my day and I wouldn't be able to find coverage, or my husband and I would do the divide and conquer thing. You know, he'd take a few hours, I'd take a few hours. And we didn't have a lot of help with family, but we did have some nannies. And sometimes they're open to being with your kid when their kids. When you have a sick child, sometimes they don't want to be anywhere near It. So it's just kind of. You kind of have to just go with the flow and figure it out on the fly. But it can be really, really stressful. Now that I have more of the online business focus and seeing less clients, it's a lot easier because I can do work from home with him while he's here. He's old enough, he's able to entertain himself, and he still is napping. And so it's gotten a little bit easier over time.

A (28:25)

And one of the things too, I assume, is sometimes maybe you can even reschedule the client, do an online appointment, do a phone appointment, appointment. So with technology, it's really assisted us as well in the advancement of that. Have you guys ever had a situation where, like a client's upset, like, well, you canceled last minute and you charged me. And how have you handled that?

C (28:43)

I haven't ever had a situation like that where someone's been upset with me canceling because it's been so few and far between. And with my own cancellation policy, it's really been a case by case situation. I have a very firm cancellation policy. But when it comes to if, if someone has a really sick kid and they just can't be here, I'm compassionate about that. I have a kid. I understand. And if it's something that's really out of their control and they're just not able to do a phone session or have someone else watch their child so they can come to session, then I might waive that fee. So it really just depends.

B (29:18)

Nice. I handle it similarly. We have a 24 hour cancellation policy that I am pretty passionate about enforcing. But we do what's called, like a freebie. So everyone gets a freebie up out of the gate. But then also kind of like what Kate said, you know, it's, It's. Yeah. I mean, we've had people who have had funerals. It's like, I'm not gonna charge you because you had to go to your grandpa's funeral, you know, and things like that. So we kind of handle it similarly. But also I. Most of the people are like, so kind when I tell them I'm so sorry. I have a sick kid. And usually the next session, like, is your kid okay? Thanks for asking. You know, so I think most people get it, and I haven't had a situation yet where someone's upset, but most people get it. A lot of people are parents too, or have things that happen out of their control.

A (30:03)

Cool. So what advice would you like to give to our parents who are in private practice.

B (30:12)

Feels like heavy and I feel a little impostery and like, who am I to be giving advice? Just go for it. Have your people, have your tribe. Have the people you can rely on to help you. Don't be afraid to not pursue your goals because you're trying to figure out how to balance parenthood and business. Sometimes you got to get creative. Sometimes we're watching Netflix and I'm trying to email people and figure things out. Sometimes I hide in the closet to participate in marketing courses. So don't be afraid. Find your people and go for it and have your ideal schedule and be present. Sometimes I remind myself the most important work I'm doing is within the four walls of my home. And so I focus on that. When I'm in my office, this is my work. When I'm doing my nap time, I admin stuff. Like that is my work. And so just, just being in the present, go for your goals. Develop your tribe. Self care, self care, self care. And boundaries. Like, I don't feel like I really understood what boundaries were until I was out of grad school. Like, it sounds great in grad school. And then like you actually get into it. You're like, oh, yeah, okay. People should not be texting me at three in the morning when they're having a fight with their spouse. Like, that's weird. Oh, yes. I need to hold my cancellation policy because my time is valuable and I want to get paid too. So just boundaries, self care. Find your tribe. Do it. Don't be afraid if you mess up. There's other therapists who can therapize your family and children.

A (32:03)

You know, I heard this great quote once that said something to the effect of don't make your kids the excuse, make them the reason. Right. And I think parenthood as well as business and entrepreneurship is sometimes it's on the fly, right? And really just jumping in and getting your feet wet and being in the experience, that's where we really learn the most. And you know, like you said, we're here to support you. I mean, that's our passion at the private practice startup and really helping therapists building grow their dream practice wherever you are at and whatever stage you're at and wherever you are at in your life.

B (32:31)

Right.

A (32:32)

So, Sarah, we wanted to just thank you for joining us for this really fun opportunity and your willingness to actually say yes. And actually the cool, cool thing is our next guest, which is going to be Matt. He is the father, I believe, of quadruplets. So it's interesting that we picked two parents who have multiple so he'll share his experience of being an entrepreneur, private practice owner as well as being a dad. So he'll join us next time for that podcast. But before we go, we want to make sure we do our Startup Nation Superhero Shout Out.

C (33:05)

Yes, we'll give our superhero shout out to Carol Park. Carol says this podcast is informative and entertaining. There's no dynamic duo born to be our Startup Nation's fearless leaders.

A (33:16)

Wow.

C (33:17)

I know. Kate and Katie are well versed in all things private practice and the depth of their industry knowledge and passion is invaluable. Any opportunity to chat, listen and learn with these two is well worth the time. I confidently brave any area with you, any arena with you by my side. Oh Carol, that's so sweet. We really appreciate the love and we love to give you our superhero shout outs. If you guys have any feedback for the podcast you're enjoying this, give us a shout out. Let us know, send us an email, subscribe, rate and review our show. We really love to hear from you and love to hear that our topics are valuable for you. And if there's something that you haven't heard yet and you want to hear it, let us know that too.

A (33:58)

Join us in Facebook. Just look for the Private Practice Startup and join the group and we'll see and hang out with you there. And Startup Nation, thank you for always allowing us to inspire you from Startup to mastery. How have an awesome and inspired day.

C (34:11)

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

B (34:35)

Sam.