B (3:36)

I'm only, like. As you talk about that, I'm thinking, like, the anxiety, the sweating palms, the, like, stomach ache, like, for 24 hours.

C (3:43)

It's awful. I still remember walking into court and walking up the stairs and going into the courtroom and just feeling completely nauseous and thinking, oh, my gosh, I don't want to be in an orange jumpsuit. You know, I don't want to have a new set of bracelets. This is going to be terrible. But I always think of that moment when I hear a therapist who say, oh, if I get a subpoena, I'm just not going to go. And I think you're completely insane to me, because when you get pulled over, someday, you just might find out that you do have a bench warrant and you may not enjoy county food. So I'm just saying, you know, we need to show up when we get.

B (4:18)

Sabina, and orange might not look so good on you, and you might not enjoy the new free bracelets you're getting.

C (4:25)

Exactly. Yes. Yes. So that's my bench warrant history.

B (4:32)

Gotcha. So ultimately you avoided the new shiny bracelets and orange jumpsuit.

C (4:39)

I was very excited when I walked out of court that day. I just, I really did appreciate my freedom, so. But it does, it comes up all the time for me when I think about when people say they just don't go if they get a subpoena. And I'm thinking, what are you doing? Are you above the law? Because none of us are. And we need to learn what the rules are and just be careful and make good choices. So I'm glad we're here today talking about court letters because I think more often than not we get ourselves into trouble thinking that we're doing something helpful and oftentimes we're actually going out of scope. So I'm glad we're talking about that. And we can talk about protecting our practices too as we write these letters.

B (5:19)

Yeah. So what are some of the common mistakes that you see therapists make when they write court letters?

C (5:24)

I would say probably one of the top two is going to be they're too long. It's like a novel. And the more you put in, the more they can, you know, break apart. And then the other issue that I see most often is where therapists do go out of scope and they will, without knowing they're doing it, or maybe they do, they're making a child custody recommendation. And so when you make a child custody recommendation, it could be regarding visitation and, or actual custody. Those both apply. And the issue with that is it's out of our scope as the therapist. And I think the biggest thing to remember is what is our scope? And when we are the treating therapist, who is the identified client and what is it our job to do? And we are biased and that's a good thing because we are walking with our clients as we should be on their journey. And so we, when we step out of that role and attempt to make a recommendation that is and should be something that's very objective without having that pre existing relationship, we really have just completely gone out of our scope of practice and we endanger our licenses to practice. And it happens all the time because I hear about it all the time and it's very dangerous. And so I think the biggest question we can always ask ourselves anytime we read something that might go or not go to court is, is this within my scope? If we just ask that every single time, it's all going to be okay. But if we don't know what our scope is and we have, we have Other issues. Right.

B (6:56)

So, yeah, one of the things. And I. Because I'm always looking at ways to be more effective and efficient. And one of the things that I've done is I've actually written letters with my clients, you know, so they're part of the process. It's very transparent, it's collaborative. There's not going to be any surprises to them. And the other cool thing too is like, if you bill insurance, which I have never have in private practice, but you can get billed for your time, because if you're doing it in session with your client, well, it's part of the session. Right. And it's really cool because it's almost like a treatment plan review sometimes as you're talking about the progress or lack of progress towards goals and what's next. So, you know, that's what I learned to do early on. And I'm so grateful for that advice because I think it continues to support the client relationship and that's what we're really intended to do. I mean, I'm sure there's cases, you know, specific cases here and there where it's like, oh, the client's really not doing what they need to do. And yes, maybe they do need further consequences or help or treatment and things like that. And it might not be as collaborative, but overall, I've found that really works well.

C (7:55)

And I think it's a therapeutic conversation to say, you know, it may not be in your best interest to have this letter. And because so here's the Pandora's box, right? Is once they take that letter with them and let's say they give it to an attorney or they use it for whatever they're using it for. It's just written stip. It just. It just. It's words that are on a paper. And so then what happens is that the court has the capacity to want to hear more, right? They want to hear more from this, what's on this. And so then you can get called in. And now you're testifying as a percipient witness of what you saw, what you heard, what you know. And so then you get into this kind of conundrum because your client has to understand that you don't get to pick and choose what you consent to release. And once you sign that consent, it's everything. And this is really something that comes up with our teenagers a lot is they're like, you know, I want. Because I want this to be. To be read in court, but they don't realize that when you consent, it's all of your records. Once you open that door in court, they can ask them about anything. So maybe five years ago, when they did try to commit suicide, and now they're doing great, but they want a letter about today. It just opens the door to go into all of that. And so I think it's up to us as their therapists to say, do you really understand what it means to open this door of consent? Because it opens the door to everything. And I think that's something that a lot of our clients don't realize. They think we're just going to be able to focus on the good stuff, and then that's all that is going to be asked in court. Well, that's of course not what they're going to ask about. They're going to want to know about the stuff that doesn't look all bright and cheery, of course. And that's really where I think that those therapeutic conversations can happen. I love the idea of writing a letter with your client. I love that they're participating in that, not only for billing purposes, but also because I think a lot of times they are not perhaps being as realistic as what can and cannot go in that letter. And so I think it's really helpful. The other thing, of course, is that anything past a page and a half turns into something very different. Two pages is the absolute max I would ever write a letter to the court. But most of my letters are actually bulleted. I do bullet points because what I have found, it's like most people, when they read, they read like a text. You read the very beginning and you read the end, and then you miss the middle. And so if you ever get a text from me, I'll text you later. You'll know. I literally will space it out. I space everything out because otherwise people don't read the middle. And so when I do letters, I am spacing things out. I'm bulleting them, and I'm making them really clear. And I'm not using a bunch of therapeutic jargon. I'm going to make it clear because I want that. I want everybody to understand what it is I'm trying to say. And I think that's really important, too. But it's. I'm glad we're talking about this. I know my. I've got. There's so much to say, but I'm like, okay, focus, Nicole.

B (10:43)

Well, it's interesting you reference how you actually write the letters, because even in marketing, you know, when we look at something and we read something, if it's like this big long paragraph. We don't want to read that, but we do read in spaces and bullet points. So separating that, that's not only great for core, but it's great for marketing.

C (10:59)

And I something is actually learned when I worked with clients who had borderline because I would get two full pages without spaces, right? And there would be questions kind of interspersed. And then if I responded those questions, they'd say, you didn't answer any of my questions. And I'm like, wait a minute. So what I would do is actually I would take their emails and then I would break them up for them and then I would highlight where they asked me questions and then I would answer the question in a different color next to it and I would break everything up. And I got into this habit years ago and in and it got to the point where I started doing it in text. I do it in everything when you get it from me. And somebody said, your emails look so formal. I said, but you read it, didn't you? And you read the middle because breaking things up really helps people take in the information. So I'm a big fan of that.

B (11:40)

So before we dive into all your do's and don'ts tips, let's take a quick break for our sponsor.

D (11:45)

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B (13:17)

All right, let's dive in.

C (13:19)

Okay, are you guys ready?

B (13:21)

I'm ready.

C (13:22)

Okay, so one of the biggest do's I would say first of all is make sure you have a clear court policy that even says whether or not you are going to be writing these court letters. If you have decided to put your name on the court approved list of therapists and you don't write letters, that does not make any sense. If you're going to say, yes, I want to be on the court approved list, then you have to know that there's court going on. And the expectation is of course, that you're going to be writing a letter at some point that is helpful so that the court can see how somebody is doing or how things are coming along. Not to make a recommendation, but just to see how things are. So those two need to go hand in hand. If you're on a court list, make sure you're also writing court letters. If you don't want to be writing court letters, then obviously it would not help you to be on that list. I see that quite often. One of the other things that I talk about a lot is scope. And so all of us have varying ranges of scope, I think depending on the type of license we have, the state that we're in, what we're really allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do. So when you are writing a letter, I think one of the biggest things that to keep in mind is what is the goal? Not just, you know, I'm writing this because I was asked to what is the goal goal of this? And I ask the clients, what do you plan on using this for? You know, what is the purpose of this? Because it helps me clarify how it's going to be viewed and they may or may not be truthful. But again, anytime I look back at any of my letters, I'm asking myself, if this was read out loud in a court of law, how would it sound? And I have been in court where I was waiting for one of my cases and I heard a letter being read out loud. Because family law court, anybody can go, it's very rare that they close the courtroom and seal it. You can go and watch restraining order hearings, you can watch custody, and you can watch a lot. It's really kind of crazy. And interesting at the same time. And I sat back and I listened to the judge actually read a court letter. And I recognized the writing. And I was like, I know her. And the reason I know her is because I helped her edit that letter. It just had to be happened to be there. And he actually said, I don't think we need the therapist. I think I have enough here with what they have. And I was like, yeah, yeah, exactly.

B (15:39)

That's awesome.

C (15:41)

And it was helpful. And it, I think, helped in that particular case. The other attorney actually helped sway the other attorney and say, look, can we just avoid putting this kid on the stand? Like, let's just not go down that road. Can. Can everybody agree to the written steps from the attorney and from this, that. And they were making this deal based upon information that was really helpful. And that was just one of those unexpected, like, moments that I was so grateful for. Because anytime something that we do can help keep a kid safe, because that's always my number one. It's amazing. It's amazing when we stay within scope and we do our jobs well, how helpful we can actually be. It's really a gift in the work that we do. So that was amazing to see a.

B (16:25)

Definite win for everybody, really.

C (16:27)

It really was. And it gave me hope, which we can always use more of that.

B (16:32)

It's interesting. Talk about that. I actually have talked myself out of a subpoena before because it wasn't going to be helpful to the client. Right. And here I'm thinking, oh, I got to go to court, and all these things. And I just explained to my client as well as the attorney, like, you know, what we're working on in therapy and what you shared with me is really not going to help you and decided to not bring me in. So I was like, cool.

C (16:53)

And that's amazing. But again, that was your job as the therapist, is to be really honest and have that conversation. And that's a really hard conversation, I think, to have with a lot of our clients, because their perspective of the work that we're doing and ours again. And if you're the type of therapist who's writing notes with your client versus not, sometimes they really do know or understand what our perspective is, just what they think it is. And so when people see things literally in black and white, it tends to shift. And people take things really personally and they feel very sensitive about what they have read. So I think sometimes the surprises can be very difficult. But I do like to know when we're writing, usually what the purpose is. And Again, it's written stip. And I say you're opening the door and then you're gonna say you're not gonna sign consent, of course, and then you've got a judge who's gonna be irritated and we've got a whole different situation. And so again, what is the purpose and really like talking about what are the possible outcomes of having this piece of paper that is very powerful. It's really powerful in a lot of different ways. So I would just say always be careful. I just gave it to my client. I didn't know it was be gonna end up in court. I just assume everything is going to end up in court.

B (18:09)

That's a good way to think. I had a great supervisor that said if you're, you know, if something happened with your client and. Or if your notes ended up somewhere, you know, and it was in the paper and it was the headline of the paper, what is it going to read based off what they've read in regards to your notes? And, you know, that's always stuck with me because I do think about that, you know, and especially places where there's highly, highly confidential information. Like, you know, if you're. I work with couples in a fair recovery, right. So if one. If I'm seeing one person for individual and they're still having their affair and they go to get divorced, I think about that, like, what if for some reason my notes get pulled in, you know, and I will reference things extremely vague, so, you know, it can protect their confidentiality. So really kind of having that hat on as well as we even just go about our regular therapeutic life is really important too.

C (18:55)

Yeah. And so. And it's funny you said that because I have had to go in and I have gone back and forth between being vague and very detailed and I'm pretty much in the middle at this point, right. After years it's gotten me. I'm. Now I'm at the point where I'm kind of in the middle with how much information is in there.

B (19:13)

Right. And there's sometimes that we have to be detailed, especially with critical incidences, you know, and of course a client is referencing suicidality and things like that. And then it's really important to be super detailed.

C (19:23)

But again, I think that's that therapeutic capacity that all of us have where we really have to consider every case is so different. And, and so. And it goes the same to this. Every letter is completely different. Every time that we interact is different. And I think when we really bring in our skillset and we Talk to our colleagues and get feedback. It's really important. And that's actually one of our dues, is to have a colleague review your letter for you. Because I've done that many times and I've said, what on earth? This is literally War and Peace. This is too much. It's way too much. And I know you're super smart, you want to share everything, but you just need to bold at this, and we need to get it shorter because the judge is not going to read all of it. And this is going to. You're going to have to answer to every single thing. And I know that you can, but that's not necessarily helpful. So court, I always think of as more succinct, and they want to get answers quickly and efficiently. And so when we're writing letters, I always think of not only the bulleting, but I kind of think of like a PowerPoint, you know, and I've seen different kinds of PowerPoints. There's a PowerPoint, have paragraphs, and they completely missed the PowerPoint class because it's points, right? So same concept. And I think of our letters the same way. Let's make points. If it was up on a screen, on a PowerPoint, you know, how would it look? And because again, we're trying to convey. Convey it in a succinct manner. And my very first boss, the same one who had prepped me for court the first time, had said to me, you know, Stoller, you got to start writing for the court. He's like, I don't know who you're writing this for. He's like, but all of this clinical talk and this, that and the other, he's like, they're not going to understand what you're saying, and you need to make it more clear. And I mean, it took me a year before I became a really good writer because I was constantly getting my reports kicked back to me. And he would just say, what are you doing? But the judge doesn't want to know this and that. And yes. And what can you prove? What can you say? What did you observe? Because again, even as an agency worker, it was as a percipient witness, as a fact witness. We can only talk about what we saw, right? It's the five senses, right? What you saw, what you heard, what you tasted, what you smelled, that sort of thing. And that's what I remember when I think about writing a letter. It has to be something that we actually experienced. So if you want to talk about mom being a good mom, that's Cool. But you can say in my office, the mother has blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah consistently throughout. Not that I know. She's a good mom. You don't know that. You just know what she's done in your office. You know, if you saw her out in the parking lot, you know, hugging her kid, you can document that too. What? It has to be something that you have information about, right. Or that they told you. But then you say, you know, client reported the following blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or when, when bringing up father's name, you know, client immediately goes into the fetal position and cries and does this. We can still give all that really helpful information without saying, obviously dad should never have custody. You know, out of our scope. And we didn't do that evaluation. We just know what we know. And so when we write our letters that way we know what we know and we do it in a succinct manner. It can be extremely helpful. It's just again, making sure that we're staying within scope again.

B (22:33)

Cool.

C (22:34)

So don'ts. Do you want to do some don'ts?

B (22:36)

Yes, I was just gonna say share some of the don'ts.

C (22:39)

Okay. So I would say the biggest don't is opinions. We have to recognize our role as the therapist. And as a therapist, we are absolutely testifying as a fact witness, as a percipient witness. And opinions do not fall under facts. It's what somebody thinks, right? So that's the easiest thing to think of. And when we think about opinions, again, we don't necessarily have crystal balls. And when we haven't done full assessments of the entire family, we really can't say dad shouldn't have custody, mom shouldn't, even if they're in jail for five years for murder. We have not interviewed, talked to, reviewed, assessed. We haven't done any of those things. So to make an assumption to provide an opinion is again going out of scope. And so I think opinion is probably the biggest don't. And just remember again, we're a fact percipient witness.

B (23:29)

You know, it's interesting. I remember when so I was in management leadership positions for many, many years. And I think my first write up of one of my staff, one of my colleagues reviewed it. So kind of going with the dudes, right? And she was like, katie, you can't have this, you can't. And it was clearly I was upset and angry at the staff and like I had to learn how to just write very specific fact based things.

C (23:50)

Right? And that was so important.

B (23:52)

So good education and training back then as well.

C (23:55)

Yes, it's everything to be succinct and it definitely, it's a learning curve. I think my boss probably wanted to kill me on a daily basis. And it was such a different way to learn and write. And I'm so grateful for it now because it's really helped me, you know, move forward in my career. I'm a good writer and you know, I just submitted a 35 page expert witness report. And again, you know, doing summaries and bulleting and making sure that it's easy to find the information and it's conveyed and it doesn't get lost because of course in that many pages you can see how it easily could be. But again, it's, you know, being able to say what is within my scope as an expert on that. Because if it's something out of my scope, I'm not going to be talking about it, you know, even if somebody asked me to. Can you talk about this? Actually, no, because that's not my scope. And so I think really knowing what your scope is a saving grace. And if we apply it to everything that we do as therapists, it's amazing how we can really cya our private practices. So I'm a big fan of that. I'm a big, big fan.

B (24:57)

What are some of your other don'ts?

C (24:59)

Okay, so I always say this, don't think that your letter is not considered testimony. So be careful. Consider that it's basically testifying without being in person. And the reason that I say that is because, yes, not only could it be read in court, but if you do have to testify in that case at some point and maybe you've changed your mind about something or maybe you recalled something different and you're going to have to answer to what you previously wrote. So again, it can be used as evidence to help you or not help you. You know, Mr. Peterson, on this date and time you, you provided, you know, your client with a letter. It stated this, you know, are you still, you know, in agreement? Dah, dah dah dah. Why or why not, you know, or why did you write this? Or why did you write that? So you have to really know that it's the beginning of testimony. It's when people think, oh no, I just write letters so I don't have to go to court. I'm kind of like internally laughing thinking, oh my goodness, you, you, that's the key to court, right? You just got the D. It's like you're just opening the door, like click so you've actually increased. Right. You've actually increased the odds of you going. Because you know that written stipulation only goes so far if they accept, because then they're going to want to cross examine you. And if you're saying something that the other side potentially feels like it's going against them, then they, under the Constitution, have the right to cross examine. Right. Their accuser, which could be you, depending on how you've written it. I know we're getting into the legal jargon world, but we have to know that whatever we write has the ability to be cross examined in a court of law. And then we have to answer to it. So, so it's not going to be another letter. You know, the judge isn't like, hey, I've got some questions for you. You're gonna come in, you're gonna sit on the stand and you're going to respond. And again, it's Pandora's box. So once that letter, it's just, it's the key. It's the key to you maybe being on the stand. And it's also the key to all those records opening up. So it just, it opens a lot. And so there's a lot of value and a lot of, I think, power in this piece of paper that we don't necessarily recognize. And I think that's where things get dangerous.

B (27:04)

Gotcha. And something we really need to consider. Right. And need to know for ourselves, but also have conversations with our clients. So do you have maybe just one or two more really important don't tips? Cause we are running out of time.

C (27:18)

So one of the, one of the don'ts. Tip. The don'ts sounds so weird. Don'ts tips. Don't. Oh my gosh. Is to not forget about bias because it's really not necessarily a bad thing. But what I, what I actually will put into my letters is I will say, you know, at the end, because the court knows that I'm also an expert witness and they have my name on other lists. And so I clarify because sometimes people forget or they try to get like a twofer, they're going to ask me for, oh, well, since you're here, Ms. Stolen Peterson, we know that you're this, that and the other. Could you give us. And I'm like, no, because my role is clear. I'm unable to provide that. And I've had to do that a few times in court. And then the judges is like, nope, she's correct. She's testifying today as a prosecuting witness. So I think it's important to remember to clarify that you are not providing opinions. And so at the end, I'll say, you know, I am testifying or this letter is being provided as I'm providing this as a fact witness. I am not providing this with any opinions. This, that and the other. Da, da, da, da, da. Clarify. This has been my role. And then I clarify again what my role has been. Just to remind them again, like, you're not going to try to get this out of me. Because this is probably what happens to therapists most often. I know it's connected. It's not necessarily a letter. When therapists go to court, they'll be asked for their opinion. And if nobody catches it, it can happen. And so you can be on the stand and you turn in your letter and you're like, I think I'm good. And then, oh my gosh, now I'm you telling testifying. And there we are. And then an attorney says to you, but Mr. Laura Peterson, you've been treating so and so for this, this many years or this many. Don't, don't you agree, don't you agree that Ms. So and so is a better parent? Right. Isn't that a great.

B (29:03)

So watch out for the agree word.

C (29:05)

Don't you agree or wouldn't you agree or isn't it true that and da da, da, da. And then I would say, I'm here testifying today as a precipient witness. I'm not able to provide an opinion. I would assume that the judge would appoint that in regards to a child custody evaluation. I know. So I'll go the whole way with it. But what I tell when I, when I actually do court performance coaching, I tell all my clients, if you get asked on the stand anything like that, your response is going to be, I am testifying here today as a fact witness. I am biased. This is my client. I'm unable to provide any opinions. And we practice it over and over again because almost always somebody's going to try to get away with that and court. And that's where we get in trouble and that's where the board gets called and everything goes to crap. So again, what's our scope and not being, being just kind of like cornered into answering a question that we know that we shouldn't be answering. But, but they're gutting at our hearts and our heads and our egos and we're like, well, yes, of course she's a better mother. No, no, no, no, no. So it's holding to that being A fact witness. And again, staying within scope. And that's the saving grace, I think, for all of us when we're in court.

B (30:11)

So do you like to play the very intimidating attorney in these role plays?

C (30:15)

It's so much fun, but I only do it after I've worked on building them up. And then I'll say, okay, we do the practice questions at the very end. But by then, usually my clients know what the responses are. And I actually got to watch one of my therapist clients on the news testifying on this huge case, huge case. And I had the chills just watching her.

B (30:38)

I have the chills, as you say that. That's like so exciting.

C (30:41)

Oh, it was so great. And just to see her looking confident and the way she answered the questions and just. And I said to her, you are going to have so many referrals. People are gonna know, like, nobody's. You're not gonna back down. Like, this is so good for your business. And it's just amazing because when we have a good day in court or we write a good letter, anything like that, we get a good name in the community. Our name is our brand, and that just circles back to us. And so that's why if we do take a little bit of time in this area, it can really circle back to more business, better business, good branding. People know that we're reliable, that we're not going to get pushed into a corner. I think that's really helpful. And so, you know, anything court related, you can either have a dark cloud over your head or you can leave and you can feel amazing. And I'm blessed to get to help therapists in whatever capacity regarding court because the phone calls or the texts I get after is, oh my gosh, it was okay. It wasn't horrible. I feel good. I just got a new referral because of it. I'm like, yes. So I think we're surprising the legal community and that's what we should be doing. We should be surprising them with our capacity to convey information effectively, to be helpful. And then also it circles back to more, you know, more business for us too, which is awesome. So that makes me really happy.

B (31:57)

Nice. Nicole. So what do you want our listeners to take away from your message today?

C (32:01)

So what I would love for our listeners to take away is, first of all, just to know that anytime that you write a court related letter or any letter, just to assume it's going to end up in court and read it out loud and have somebody review and just be careful. It doesn't mean Just put nothing in there. But again, it's what you know, as the therapist and just staying in scope. And when we do that, amazing things can happen. I offer the do's and don'ts of court relay letters for free on my home, on my homepage and my website. I started doing that a long time ago because it's, it's a huge time saver. I think sometimes we just need to be reminded of what we can and what we can't say. And that can be really helpful just to have a guide, especially if we're not doing them that often, you know, so just to get into that practice.

B (32:47)

Right. And what is your website?

C (32:48)

It is therapistcourtprep.com and we will have.

B (32:51)

That on the show notes page for you guys. So you can access access that easily for sure. And did you guys, I know that you have the do's and don'ts, but also share with people how they can get your court policy and what does that include and stuff like that.

C (33:05)

So@therapistcourtprep.com you can actually purchase my copy and paste court policy for $37. And then there's some bundles where you can get the stress free guide for court, which was really like a labor of love, but it's the easiest to read manual meant for therapists to prepare and to understand what can and can't happen in court. And then I think for like three extra bucks you can get worksheets. So if you actually need to prepare for a deposition or for trial, you can actually fill out the worksheets and kind of get yourself ready. And then it talks about creating a timeline and all of those goodies to just feel really prepared. And I always think of it like Murphy's Law. You know, you take an umbrella, it's not going to rain. Fantastic. And so you get the bundle. I don't know, it's like 77 bucks or something. And then I sell an online course too, but that's only if you need CEUs. Otherwise I always say, you know, the $77 bundle has kind of everything you need to just be careful and if nothing else, get the free do's and don'ts on the homepage. But the court policy, which everybody says, why do you only sell it for $37? Because I absolutely wholehearte believe everybody should have one. And yes, you can write your own. Most people don't want to, but that's it's available. And then you can just kind of pick and choose. And then if you're, if you're somebody with a subpoena and you're freaking out. And if I have time, I will do some court performance coaching and get you ready for court.

B (34:27)

Nice.

C (34:28)

I love, I love, love, love the outcomes that we can have. I get so excited when everybody has a good day. It's the best feeling.

B (34:37)

Well, it's very clear that you are super uber passionate, so I just wanted to thank you and I'm sure all of you are breathing a little easier. You feel a little bit more supported, you're knowing what to write in your court letters and make sure you check out the previous episode as we talk about what was in your court policy. Or just you can even listen to the episode and just go straight to her website and go ahead and get your court policy document and add that to part of your paperwork. So for our Startup Super Nation, Startup Nation Superhero Shout out. I'm getting tongue tied because this is like four hours of podcasting. So that's just what happens. For our Startup Nation Superhero Shout out comes from Sarah Kastrobnis. I've been listening to several of your podcasts over the past few weeks via your website. Really great topics and guests. I'm getting so excited about my new adventure of starting up my own private practice. You've helped me inspire and motivate me to see how I'll be able to do it. Keep up the great work inspiring others. Thank you Sarah for allowing us inspire you and I know that you are actually we talked a few months ago and so if you are listening to to this podcast, I really hope you began to take the leap and get some things started with your private practice and we wish you the best of luck. So thanks for sharing your thoughts and your feelings and your inspirations and Startup Nation, we always love to hear from you. That's what keeps us moving on. So if you want to write and review, if you want to send us an email, we just love to hear what you guys are gaining out of the podcast and whatever it is that we not whatever it is that we do for you, but all the other things that we do for you. So we hope you guys join us next time. We we are going to have Dr. Marnie Feuerman back on the podcast and Marnie recently launched a new book so Marnie is going to share with us on how to write a self help book to grow your private practice. So Startup Nation, we hope you join us next time. And as always thank you for allowing us to inspire you guys from startup to mastery. Take care and have an awesome and inspired day.

D (36:30)

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

C (36:58)

Sam.