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Private Practice Startup Podcast
Episode 181: Keeping yourself (and your practice) strong amidst the Covid-19 Global Panic
00:35:49
Dr. Camilla Gamba
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Private Practice Startup Podcast where we help ambitious private practitioners across the globe to brand themselves and grow their dream practices. We chat with successful private practitioners, business coaches and marketing experts bringing you tons of practice building Ninja tips. Visit privatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, attorney approved private practice paperwork and our signature marketing E course. Here are your co hosts, Dr. Kate Campbell and Katie Lemieux.
- [00:31]
B
Hey startup. Welcome back to another episode. We are in a unique situation because we're in the midst of the COVID pandemic crisis and Katie and I have adjusted our episodes to really try to specially meet your needs during this very unique and very challenging time. And whether you're listening now or possibly sometime in the future when we're on the other side of this pandemic, we really hope that you are finding a lot of value in the content that we are producing. And just to let you know, it's only going to be my Kate Campbell today. And I'm here with Dr. Camilla Gamba. She is back with us again today from Milan, Italy. Hi Dr. Camilla.
- [01:14]
C
Hello. It's good to be back.
- [01:16]
B
It's so nice to have you back. Thank you for being here. And whether you're listening to this episode, to our show for the first time or you're coming back for another time, we want to say thank you so much for being here. Thank you for trusting in us as the Private Practice startup and we always try to provide content that is most valuable for you. Last week's show, if you haven't listened already, was with Julia where we talked about three creative ways to practice self care during the COVID crisis. And we want to invite those of you that are first time listeners just to take advantage of the A to Z cheat sheet, which is our essentials for building and growing your dream private practice. That's our special giveaway to you. It also comes along with five days of practice building ninja tips so you can really grow and build your dream private practice. So definite. Take advantage of that. It will be in the link at the show notes. And without further ado, we'd love to be able to dive into today's topic where we're actually having Dr. Camilla Gamba, who is here from Milan, Italy back for another episode. Her Last episode was 177 Episode B where she talked about how to prepare your practice for a pandemic. And here we are three weeks later. We are knee deep in pandemic mode and a lot of people are panicking because the pandemic is quite stressful on A lot of different levels. So it's very. It's amazing to have this opportunity to be able to have Camilla here to talk about her experience of being a private practice owner in the midst of really at the epicenter of all of this in Italy. And they're kind of three weeks ahead of us, timeline wise. So, Camilla, catch us up to speed. How have things been going for you over in Milan since the last time we spoke three weeks ago?
- [03:07]
C
Okay, well, as we were saying before, it's been three weeks, but it feels like this weird time warp where it feels like forever, but also really short. So actually made myself a little calendar where every day I keep track because I lose track of what day it is. But overall, I have to say the last two days have been kind of going up in terms of my mood, but it's very much reflecting the actual situation. And, you know, everyone's reading numbers and talking about the peak and when things are gonna peak. And I think in Italy, we're getting there. So that's kind of feeling like, okay, maybe we're over the hump of the worst of it. So that's good. In terms of the mood, in terms of my practice, it's. It's been going okay, I think, you know, the first couple of weeks, maybe before we spoke for the last episode, it was all about transferring onto online and teletherapy. I lost about 10 clients, meaning that I think eight of them decided to take a break. Two of them I never heard back from, so that's fine. But then the others were continuing. So I've got 12 clients that I keep seeing. And in terms of the therapy, that took a bit of adjusting for the teletherapy part, but also like the actual therapy, because all of a sudden, every single one of these persons lives got upturned. I also work with people who travel a lot. They're all expats. So, you know, the travel restrictions were impacting a lot of them. So that was just a bit crazy. But now I feel like I've gotten used to the situation. The therapy with each one of these people has kind of gotten back on track. And so I feel like, okay, I. I'm back to kind of feeling like I know what I'm doing kind of.
- [05:00]
B
Mostly it's quite the rollercoaster ride, because I know for us here, you have those moments where you're like, okay, I got this. I can handle this. We're adjusting. And then those other moments where it's like, oh, my goodness, the whole world is turned upside Down. How do we navigate this? Yeah, it's a lot to go through. And, Camilla, I asked you just to catch us up to speed, but I forgot to ask you to introduce yourself. So just in case people are listening and they haven't heard that previous episode yet, could you give us a quick introduction?
- [05:32]
C
Sure, sure. So I'm living in Milan right now, which is the city where I was born. My dad's Italian, my mom's American, so I did grow up in California in Davis, but then I came back here and I got my license here. And now I have set up my private practice thanks to a lot of help from you guys and your podcast. And I mostly work with expats, so I offer therapy in English for people who are from pretty much all over the world. So we work a bit on cultural adjustment, but also the main areas of focus for me are trauma and grief. And so this is kind of the summary of what I do here in Milan.
- [06:16]
B
Perfect. Yes. Thank you for sharing that. And when you were talking a few minutes ago, you were talking about the adjustment and how this has impacted your practice. In terms of your caseload, where some of the people dropped off, you didn't hear from them. The majority has stayed with you with having 12 clients, and about eight or so of them have just kind of taken a break until you're on the other side of this. For those 12 clients that you've kept on your caseload, how has that been for you, navigating? Because we're all kind of in this together. So what's that been like for you, navigating this emotionally as your clients are kind of going through the same thing, trying to figure it all out each day.
- [06:55]
C
It is, you know, I have, again, it's that roller coaster. So a lot of mixed feelings. Just on a personal level, I was initially just sad and scared at this drop in the caseload. And then a couple of weeks in, I was thinking, okay, this is actually, I really need this break. Like, I couldn't be carrying that full caseload. So just on a very personal level, I was thankful for that. In terms of the actual work with the clients, with, we kind of left it that I'm open. If at any point they do want to check back in, then we're free to do that with a couple of them. I am going to actually reach out to them because we left it that they weren't feeling well. So that's kind of playing on my mind. So I just want to check in with them. In Italy, we had the date of April 3rd, that was originally the date that the restrictions were going to be in place. And today's April 2nd. We still don't know what the next step is, but I will. I kind of set myself that day as the date. Just to write to those eight and say, you know, just checking in, if you want, I'm here. Otherwise, as soon as we can go back to in person sessions, you'll be the first to know something like that. I'm still writing the email in my mind, but tomorrow it's going to go out.
- [08:20]
B
Yeah. So you've been staying in contact with them and checking in with them and because this has been, in your words, a roller coaster, and it really has been for so many of us, I'm sure lots of people listening are relating to that as well. As you navigated your own emotional roller coaster from day to day as the events were unfolding and as the news is coming out and you're still, you know, social distancing at home. And you have been for what, six weeks now at this point?
- [08:47]
C
Yeah, we're going into a sixth, going.
- [08:50]
B
Into your sixth week. For us, for me here it's been. This is the third week.
- [08:53]
C
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [08:54]
B
So, yes, I started that last. That last day we spoke, that Friday. Friday the 13th. Which was interesting.
- [09:02]
C
It was.
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B
It happened on that day. But I'm just wondering what's been helpful for you as you've been navigating your own emotions and trying to help your clients do the same.
- [09:11]
C
Yeah, well, part of me wants to make a few confessions about not having been the best therapist. The best therapist, if that's okay. You know, maybe other people can.
- [09:24]
B
Be authentic. You know, we're all in this together.
- [09:26]
C
Ourselves for not being perfect. Because I think the first thing that kicked in for me was just a very personal, like, let me give people advice, you know, and the way I do therapy is I try not to give people advice, but just to kind of talk them through things. And, you know, the first couple of weeks I was like, oh, you should try this. And here's a great, you know, video for exercising. You know, not quite like that, but that was my. I was just really tempted. And I think part of it was also this control thing that maybe we've all kind of felt like everything's out of control, let me control things. And I was transferring that a little bit into my therapy, which is not what I want to do. That's not how I work. You know, I try to very much let it be a client led session, but so that was, I think, how I was not navigating it properly initially. And then I did figure out that I just needed a lot of time to not have stimulation. So I stopped watching the news. I just spent a lot of time just kind of sitting, checking in. Stretching, you know, wasn't like a proper workout, but a stretch looking out the window. Just like a lot of mental space. That was the way that I was managing it. So then I could have just be in a good space to then really listen to the client in their session and not make it about me needing to.
- [11:00]
B
Mm.
- [11:00]
C
Something for them. I don't know if that makes sense.
- [11:03]
B
It does make sense. I mean, it's. We all go through so many different stages of this process because when it's first happening, it's so surreal. And you have to. This is all happening in real time, you know, and we're all just unfolding in front of our eyes. We're all experiencing it for the first time together. Because we've never had a pandemic before. So there's not like a textbook of how to cope with a pandemic or, you know, how to go ahead.
- [11:28]
C
I've actually shared that with a couple of clients, especially the ones that I've had like a longer relationship with. And, you know, I've been very honest about that saying, like, I don't have an answer to whatever issue you're. You're bringing to me. We can talk about it together because we're all in the space where we're trying to figure out exactly. Like you said, we don't have. We don't know how to navigate a pandemic, but we're just figuring out together and we can work together to figure it out. So I've actually been very honest and share that with some of my clients.
- [12:01]
B
Yeah. And which on some level is normalizing. Right. That we're all in this together. You're not alone. You know, on some level, I'm going through the same thing in my own way. And I know I was just having a conversation with someone the other day about this, about how we have to be so careful about our own self disclosure. Right. Because we're going through the same thing. Our clients are going in so many different ways and it's easy to just overshare. And so what kind of helped you to navigate that aspect?
- [12:31]
C
Yeah, actually what's been interesting is because a lot of my clients and when the outbreak first happened here in Milan, a lot of my clients ended up leaving and going abroad. Just thinking back at that time, that it was just going to be localized to Italy the way it had been localized in China. And so they were hearing all this stuff about Italy, and it turns out that I could feel and hear that they were concerned about me as their therapist, which was a new thing in the therapeutic relationship. So that was actually a nice thing for me to hear personally, but for most, it was just also a good opportunity to talk about that. The transference and countertransference and, you know, but. But mostly just reassuring them that I was okay. I did disclose a couple of things about where I was, you know, because also the backdrop changed.
- [13:28]
B
Yeah.
- [13:30]
C
Yeah. So it was nice. And I did share a few things, just because I think they expressed their need to know that I was okay. And I made sure that I let them know that I was okay and my family was okay.
- [13:42]
B
Of course. Yeah. Very kind of them to ask you. It really was. It speaks to therapeutic rapport that you have with them, that you've developed with them. Yeah. That they want to make sure that you're safe as well.
- [13:54]
C
Exactly.
- [13:55]
B
Yeah. It's definitely a whole new world to be navigating this together. And I'm curious also about how your family has been throughout this process and your friends and your community.
- [14:09]
C
It's been good. I'll talk, but then I'm kind of processing, so if I start going all over the place, you can bring me back on track. It's been good, I think, with my family. I moved in with my dad just as this was happening, so that we could do the quarantine together. And that's been really nice. And I think this has been across the board for everyone. I want to say, if there's, like, good relationships within the family, if there's already support and love and boundaries and respect, I think this is a time where all of this is coming out and forging really strong bonds. You know, I'm just really appreciative that I do have this experience with my dad. We have lots of video calls with my family. My sister's in Switzerland. She had two weeks of coronavirus, fever, and cough, and now she's out of it. So that's good. That's a relief. When we found out she was sick, I think I was still under the impression that only old people went to the hospital. And so I wasn't really worried. But now we're realizing that young people also go to the hospital. They also come home after the hospital. But still, I think if I'd known that at the time, I would have been more worried but she's out of it. With friends. It's been interesting. I think at the beginning we were organizing video drinks together and socializing, and then they turn into these really sad, like, oh, did you hear so and so sick. And, you know, my friend lost their job, and, you know, that factory is closed. It was just all these really bad news, and I think we kind of stopped doing that. I do check in with friends, but it's just on a different level with different expectations.
- [16:04]
B
It's interesting to hear how that's kind of evolved a little bit because. Yeah, we're starting to hear some of that too, where a lot of people have lost their jobs and a lot of people are furloughed and, you know, our favorite restaurants are closing down, some of them indefinitely. And so many small businesses in the area are not able to recover from this type of crisis. And then also with colleagues, too, with their own practices and how this is affecting them and their families. It's a lot.
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C
Yeah.
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B
What was it like with your collegial friendships?
- [16:34]
C
Oh, that's been really, really helpful. And I think just checking in with them, it's been good because it was a different sort of expectation. Right. It's not like, oh, meeting up with friends just to distract ourselves, because then it turned into actually talking only about the COVID situation. Whereas checking in with colleagues, that's been so helpful. One of the things that I was struggling with was everybody seems to be doing so well, and I'd be getting all this, like, I don't know, newsletters and videos and people just posting things, you know, like professionals posting very useful things. And I was feeling, but I'm not doing anything, and I feel like my sessions aren't going very well, and I don't even have space to think and do anything. And it was just really nice to check in with with my colleagues to see that they were pretty much all going through the same thing.
- [17:29]
B
Yeah, it's so interesting because this affects us on so many different levels. With the amount of uncertainty, the financial hardship, the, you know, the physical hardship with people getting sick, maybe your family or friend, or even if you're getting sick with the virus or even just a regular cold, and then the emotional stress, the family relationship stress, the, you know, having kids at home, having to home school at the same time that you're trying to work, and there's so many different hats and having a caseload on top of that. There's so many different levels that are constantly impacting us. And it is so important to be to Be gentle with ourselves, because I can certainly relate to what you're talking about, Camilla, about feeling like I'm not doing enough, feeling like I'm not giving enough, I'm not able to help enough as much as I would want to. But we're all just doing our best, navigating this.
- [18:22]
C
I think it is important to say that and to share that because even if you look at the news, you see all this stuff, they're producing a million respirators and delivering them and you think, but I'm just, I've just been sitting at home doing nothing. And so I think it is important just to share that with each other, that it's okay, we're just not at our full capacity of mental space and we're all just managing it. And that's okay.
- [18:51]
B
Yeah, it is okay. Wherever we are. And for some people, if you are able to be or if you are able to help and that's your way of coping with this, awesome. If you're someone who needs to go into your shell and you just stay cocooned and pulled away from everything, that's okay too. However, you guys need to take care of yourself and your families during this time. And it was interesting, Camilla, because when you were talking about how your caseload dropped initially, you were kind of freaking out about that. You were like, oh my gosh, I've just lost almost 50% of my caseload and what am I going to do? And then you took a step back and a few weeks later you were able to be almost grateful, as if that were a blessing. And maybe for those of you who can really relate to your caseload numbers declining significantly, maybe that's part of, you know, the reason that that's, that's what you need to have on your caseload right now, because that's all you can manage. And there's so many other factors and stressors to manage during this time. So it is okay. And the numbers will climb again.
- [19:49]
C
Exactly. And I think one of the things that we're starting to think and talk about here in Italy is the reconstruction. So what's going to happen after? And so one of the ways that I've tried to reframe it for myself is, okay, I may have needed to cocoon for the first few weeks and just kind of process it. And it was a, you know, I just needed to take my time with that. But hopefully this will mean that when it's time to reboot and restart, I'll have that renewed energy for whatever comes next for my community. And my clients. So we'll see. Yeah.
- [20:26]
B
And being that you guys are three weeks ahead of us, and from the projection, the projections of what they're quoting are just devastating to hear at this point in terms of the US Casualties, and they say that we're going to peak the number wise sometime around May 3rd. So that's still a month from where we are now. What advice or would you have for Startup Nation about how to navigate the unknowns during this time as we're still climbing as a country with numbers, based on your own experience and what was helpful for you?
- [21:03]
C
Yeah, that's a hard one. I think if you focus too much on the numbers and the casualties, it's devastating. So I try for myself, I try to take that in little bits at a time, also try to put it into the context of, you know, global world suffering and, I don't know, try to. Yeah. Put it in perspective. Okay. The numbers, because they sound scary as themselves, but then if you put it in the perspective of other issues that the world is dealing with, then it kind of helps, I think, in terms of the time, there's this weird phenomenon that for a lot of people who haven't been really hugely impacted by this, such as myself. Right. So I'm kind of safe here. I'm healthy, my family's healthy. I'm still working. I think for people like us, there's a strange feeling of. But this kind of feels nice. I don't want it to end too quickly. Right. Because you've done all this work to adjust and now. Okay, it's been, you know, we're into our sixth week. I've adjusted. I found my routine. This actually feels kind of good. I don't know if I'm ready to go back again. So it's. I don't know if this can give some hope that you can actually get to a place where you're like this. This feels okay. I can cope. Even if it's another month, I'm genuinely saying that if it's another month, another two months of this, I can take it. And most of the people around me who are in my kind of situation, you know, a safe situation, we're all thinking, yeah, one month, two months, whatever it takes, we can do it.
- [22:45]
B
Yeah.
- [22:46]
C
If this helps in any way.
- [22:48]
B
Yeah, just accepting. Accepting and adjusting and adapting and that. That is something that we're all going through at different stages and different time frames. And then here you are being on, hopefully coming to in the near future, the reconstruction phase of things. What comes up for you emotionally, when you think about the process of starting to rebuild and starting to both with your practice, with personally with your community, with, you know, looking at it from those different levels.
- [23:20]
C
Yeah. I've noticed a bit of a divide in my social circle and people I speak to of people who are imagining reconstructing from a place of immense devastation.
- [23:39]
B
Right.
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C
Almost like the world is going to be horrible after this and, you know, economic recession, everyone's going to be poor and everything's going to be closed down and then people thinking of a reconstruction from a happier place. Okay. And I'm just sharing that because if I imagine myself in the reconstruction phase from a place of devastation, I just kind of like, emotionally, I just want to crawl into a hole and never come out. Right. I can't picture that. It doesn't help. You know, there's a lot of catastrophic projections of what the world is going to be like after this. I don't find that helpful emotionally. I find it much more helpful and energizing to be optimistic. And yes, this has been a setback and it's devastated some aspects, but. But we can do it, you know, as a, as humanity. It's amazing how adaptable we are. And I'm just really conscious that we can make it work and soon enough we'll be everybody back on our feet better than ever. So this is my mental space that I need to be in to be excited about the reconstruction.
- [24:54]
B
I'm so glad that you're sharing that. And the mindset shift is so powerful because it really does impact, I mean, we all know how important mindset is. Right. And it's almost like we have to be our own therapist during this time or even have our own therapist as we get through this, because it is a very challenging process. It's exciting to hear or I guess inspiring and encouraging, I guess, to hear about that perspective of hope and looking for that process of rebuilding and recreating and that hopefully there's some really beautiful good things that come out of this process that's been so difficult. And I do want to take just a quick moment for us to break for our sponsor.
- [25:39]
A
Would you love to work with an accounting firm that specializes in working with mental health professionals, whether it be a solo or group practice, one that can handle all of your accounting needs, like budgeting, bookkeeping, payroll, staff, setting up QuickBooks and tracking KPIs? If so, you should definitely check out Green Oak Accounting.
- [25:59]
B
On top of all of that that.
- [26:00]
A
They do, they can help you set up and stay on track with your Profit first system. Check them out@greenoakaccounting.com PPS as in private Practice Startup and get their free accounting checklist for private practice startups as well as lots of financial tips and tricks just for private practice owners. You'll also want to check out episode 169 where we had the pleasure of talking to the owner Julie Harris on what key performance indicators you should be tracking to have a successful private practice. Again, don't forget to check them out@greenoakaccounting.com.
- [26:41]
B
Pps there are so many ways to keep your practice organized, but TherapyNotes is by far the best. Their easy to use, secure platform lets you not only do billing, scheduling and progress notes, but also create a client portal to share documents and request signatures. Plus they offer amazing unlimited phone support. So when you have a question, they're there so you can get help fast. Get started with TherapyNotes today, trusted by over 60,000 professionals. Go to therapynotes.com and enter promo code PPS as in Private Practice Startup and you'll get two months for free. Also, you can listen to episode 54 where we interviewed Brad Pliner and took an in depth view into their ehr. Camilla, what else would you want to share with us about how to navigate this time?
- [27:32]
C
Yeah, I don't know. I think I've got so many thoughts going through my head. One thing I think is if we can take this as an opportunity to learn something about ourselves and you know, about what we can do about what our limits are and it's going to be different for every single person and learn from that. Right? So yes, it is devastating. It's horrible. We all wish this hadn't happened. But if we can take something really good out of it, then that's important. That does take some checking in with ourselves and looking into ourselves and sharing with others and talking. But I think if we can use this opportunity to learn something about ourselves, that's great and we might learn good things, we might learn bad things, but it's all going to be useful information to grow from as individuals and as professionals as well.
- [28:32]
B
That's great. And it makes me curious. What have you learned about yourself as like personally and then also as a business owner, as a private practitioner?
- [28:42]
C
Mm. Okay. I think personally I've. I've learned. I've been learning to cope with feeling very, very small and insignificant in the world and it's very humbling. Right. I think we all would like to think that we're very special and powerful and can do things and Global situation has made me feel very, very tiny and very, very powerless. And, you know, I've been managing that okay. And it's also made me appreciate the little things that I can do that are still helpful. Instead of having high expectations, like, I can do huge things that are going to be visible and helpful to loads of people. It's like, okay, maybe even tiny little things, I don't know, like making a nice dinner for my dad. Okay, that's something nice, like an actionable, something small that I can do. As a business owner. It's again, I feel really inspired by the reconstruction because I think I wrote this to you at one point. You know, I had this idea of going from startup to mastery. I was like, yeah, I can do this. I've got my business going well. And then it was kind of like a snakes and ladders game. It's like, okay. But now I know I have all the tools and I know all the steps and I'm so sure that what's coming next is going to be even better because I'm not going to make the mistakes I made the first time. It's going to be quicker. I've got other ideas that I can implement. So I think just that awareness that I have the tools to do it all over again and I can do it even better than the first time, that's beautiful.
- [30:35]
B
I love that perspective of being able to look back and reflect on what did work for you and some of the mistakes that you made that you're going to want to do differently as you go through this process of rebuilding. And there are opportunities for so many of us to be able to, once we get through that, like, crisis shock stage where we, you know, we all handle that in different ways. But once we just kind of accept and create that space to see, okay, what can we learn during this time? What can we focus on that is in our control? And for a lot of you, you do have some extra time on your plate. Some of you don't, depending on what the scenario is. And for those of you that do have time to be able to invest in your business or to work on a project or something that is tangible that you can do to help yourself in the future and then also help yourself now, there are those ways to come out of this stronger than we were before. And I'm sure there's a lot of ways that we will be impacted in ways that we could have never imagined, both for the positive and some for the negative with losses and a lot of grief. And I will Say that this is not only a physical crisis for our world, but it's very much a mental health crisis. And there's going to be so many people that need our services more than ever. And so to be able to look at ways of helping them, of marketing to them, of really being there for your community, it's going to be so, so important.
- [32:00]
C
Yeah. And on top of that, I'll add, you know, if you're hearing this and you think I'm just tired and I don't have the energy, then that's okay. Like, the time that you have now is time that you take to rest. That's great. Because, you know you're going to need that energy.
- [32:15]
B
Yes.
- [32:16]
C
To do the rebuilding and planning and organizing. And if you don't have the energy now, then that's okay. Just rest.
- [32:24]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad you said that, because it's important to honor where we're at, you know, and if you're not in that place now, that's okay. You can get there whenever you're ready to get there. Yeah. Anything else that you would want to share with Startup Nation before we start to bring our conversation today to a close? No.
- [32:44]
C
Maybe just the one more thing. Just like peer supervision groups, whether they're formal or just reaching out to other colleagues, like we said before, we're all figuring this out in real time, processing it for ourselves, but also understanding what are mental health professionals supposed to be doing right now? How can they help? We're all learning as we go along, so the more. More we can share in your own community, but if you want to reach out internationally, there's a lot of international groups. It's just fascinating to see. So do share, let's all share together because we're all figuring this out and becoming masters at this.
- [33:26]
B
Yes, we are all getting through this together. That is definitely for sure. And thank you so much for coming back on the podcast again today to share. Thank you.
- [33:34]
C
Thanks for having me. It's really good, really good to be here and have this opportunity.
- [33:40]
B
It's great to hear what you've learned about yourself, about your business and just the, you know, how you've navigated things, because it is such an inspiration and it gives us hope to help us as we're navigating these uncharted waters. And Startup Nation, we just want you to know that we're in this with you. We're here for you. We've got your back. We will all get through this together. So hang in there. And if there's additional podcast topics that you would love to hear or our Level up series inside our Facebook Group. If you're not already a member of our Private Practice Startup Facebook group, definitely check that out. Look for it on Facebook. Just type that in. And we would love to invite you to be a part of that where we can really support you in whatever stage you are in your practice building journey and as we all navigate this difficult time together. Next week we will be back for our podcast with Michael Dill. He is actually Katie's business coach, talking about how to migrate during turbulent times. I'm sure you guys are noticing a theme to our podcast episodes, really tailoring them specifically to content that's going to help you get through this challenging time. So we thank you for listening. We thank you for subscribing, rating, viewing our show. We always love hearing feedback from you all, making sure that we're providing content that is on point to meet your needs. So definitely shoot us an email and let us know if there's anything you would love for us to talk about that we haven't already. Startup Nation we hope you have an awesome day and as we always say, we look forward to continuing to inspire you from startup to mastery. See you next time. Thanks for joining us on the Private Practice Startup. Visit the private practices startup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more. Sam.