C (3:54)

So many ways to keep your practice organized, but TherapyNotes is by far the best. They're easy to use, secure platform, lets you not only do billing, scheduling and progress notes, but also create a client portal to share documents and request signatures. Plus they offer amazing unlimited phone support so when you have a question, they're there so you can get help fast. Get started with TherapyNotes today, trusted by over 60,000 professionals. Go to therapynotes.com and enter promo code PPS as in Private Practice Startup and you'll get two months for free. Also, you can listen to episode 54 where we interviewed Brad Pliner and took an in depth view into their ehr.

B (4:35)

Amy, welcome.

D (4:37)

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.

B (4:40)

We are too. And thanks so much for your flexibility. I like literally got your email this week and we're scheduled and doing this topic so we always kind of like to start with like how did you get interested in this area of expertise?

D (4:53)

I actually worked as the Training officer at the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. So I was working with investigative agents and crime scene agents and that sort of thing. And they were coming back to the office telling me things. You know, I was setting up regular training for them, but I was, at the same time, had just gotten my master's in counseling. So they were telling me all the things they would see on crime scenes and that sort of thing. They would come back, and I had some friends who worked in a division called the ICAC unit, which is Internet Crimes Against Children. And they would have to sit and watch child porn and so forth to try to figure out where the child was trapped at or where the person was, where the house was. They had to watch it over and over to listen for, like, airplane sounds and bus and what. What's it nearby? And, you know, you watch that stuff once. It's hard enough, but you watch it repeatedly. So they're telling me all of these things. And so at the time, I was creating classes, training classes for them just on general crime, you know, investigative, that sort of thing. And I thought, they need mental health training. They need a mental health class. So I put together one class for them on ptsd, and it just has grown from there. So I left. I've worked a couple places, but I started my own company, Academy Hour, three years ago. It's been just over three years, and I just decided I was just going to start putting together a whole bunch of mental health classes for law enforcement. And then I started connecting and networking with more law enforcement officers and departments and started teaching at conferences and started being invited to present different places, and it just turned into this. Now I'm running a business. You know, I wanted to, like, teach mental health, which I do, and then it turned into business. And so I then the counselor program, the certified first responder counselor program, came from me getting to know all of these first responders and officers who were saying, great, your training is awesome. We can watch PTSD training online. We don't have to, like, go to a counselor. I'm like, not. Not exactly, but they were starting telling me why they weren't. Why they wouldn't go to counselors. And so they just. There's a lack of trust. There's all these reasons. And so they don't want to go outside anybody who they think doesn't get them, who's not in their inner circle. And so I created this. I saw this huge need, or they were going to counselors and saying, well, I went three or four times to a counselor and the fourth time I was there, the counselor said, I have to refer you to a different counselor because now I'm going to therapy because of the stories you've told me. Awful, right? Like that is the last thing. And they're not going to go. They're going to be like, I tried counseling, it didn't work. I traumatized my therapist. So same reason. They don't want to go home and tell their family about their job. So I thought, I've got to bridge this gap somehow. And so I got together with all the people I know, which is psychologists who either have worked with responders for a long time or a lot of them used to be responders. They had a responder career and then went into counseling. So there's psychologists and counselors that used to be cops and firefighters that are serving that population. So I put together this certified first responder counselor training program to teach counselors how to get the culture of cops and first responders, firefighters and all this. And now medical personnel. So created that whole program. And so that's, that's what I do. I absolutely love every day of it.

B (8:05)

That's awesome. Share with us a little bit about that because I know it's very, it's very similar to military. So what is it that therapists need to know to be able to reach and connect with our medical professionals? First responders.

D (8:20)

Yeah. So While it's a 40 hour program, so there's a lot of it, this is a, what, 20 minute podcast. But essentially the base of it is they don't trust anybody who hasn't been a responder. They think there's no way anybody can get what they go through. And their culture is extremely different than just your regular workplace and so forth. They see a lot and they don't think, they don't trust anybody outside their circle. They're supposed to be heroes, right? We all look at them as heroes and we think they're invincible and they're strong. And so they're supposed to be strong and protectors all the time. But they're human beings. I mean, they feel they experience, but they do get desensitized to a lot. And they think they're handling things because, you know, they think they're desensitized to it. But you know how that is. Like, I equate it when I describe it to them. Like, you think you're compartmentalizing all these things, but you've seen the game Whack a Molecule, right? Like, pack them all if you want to, and something's going to start popping. They're going to start and they're going to have all these. They have terrible coping skills because they don't talk about what's going on. They don't go to get healthy coping skills like counseling and so forth. So a counselor needs to understand that they're going to be hesitant to go because they don't want to traumatize the therapist because they don't think the therapist is going to, you know, a mental health. The mental health lady is the fluffy feel good. She doesn't understand what I've seen, what I've been through, you know what I mean? So they're hesitant to even talk about the things. They basically will have a horrific day, one day go through some traumatic incident and then either get back in their cop car and go to the next one or go back to the fire station or go back in their ambulance and go to another one. You know, the normal human being doesn't experience one trauma during a lifetime or maybe one. And you talk about it, you tell your friends, it becomes your story. You go get help, they just get back in and they go to the next one. So they have this cumulative trauma. They hear other people's stories, they see other people interacting with the public on their worst days. So they're getting vicarious trauma that way. It's just constant. And so they just. It's so much they haven't learned. It's becoming a good, nice trend that they're learning, but they haven't learned to talk about it. They haven't learned to process it. They just pack it away and then have all these. Have it come out in all these unhealthy coping ways. But a counselor really needs to know that they're hesitant, they don't trust, and they've seen a lot of really bad stuff.

B (10:40)

You know, as you talk, I think about Brene Brown and I know she talks about. I forget what the verbiage she uses. I'm sure our listeners are probably feeling it as I talk to you about it.

C (10:48)

Right?

B (10:48)

Like when someone shares something with you is not to kind of like. Like you said, like, oh my gosh, like, whoa. You know, it's just to be able to take that and receive that and remain present and open and, you know, just the ability to do that, that's really tough. And so I can only imagine, you know, when people go through your course, like, that's probably part of it, to be able to remain neutral and open. What. Tell us, what are some of the parallels and. Or differences you are seeing regarding with first responders and with everything happening with COVID I know that I have a friend who's a nurse and she works on a Covid floor. And you know, I've just been checking in with her, just want to know how she's doing. Is there anything you do? And she's like, oh my God, Katie. Like I totally get like what the military people say. Like I feel like, you know, I don't really want to talk about this with anyone. It's just with my co workers and of course I like validated her and all of that. But what are some of those parallels or differences?

D (11:45)

Yeah, so they're all experiencing one first other people's trauma because they're watching other people suffer. Anytime you watch another person suffer in some way, it's going to affect you. That's, you know, in all sorts of ways. You know, a trauma causing incident is something that someone fears for their life or safety. If they're watching people fear for their life, fear for their safety in their health, that's trauma. So they're experiencing that just day after day after day and they're taking that in and they really don't have anywhere to go with it. They can't. You can go home and you can try to explain your day to somebody, but they're just not. It's one of those things where like you, you had to be there. It's only the people that are going through it with you that are truly really going to get it. Other people can empathize and they can have compassion for you and they can try to understand. Exactly. And they can listen, which is all good. But to really go, I saw this person's eyes as they were suffering or I saw whatever it happened to be. That's the thing you see up front, in person, up close. You can't experience that truly from someone just telling it to you. And then it's not just one person. It's not like a bad day where they lost a patient because you know that people in hospitals are like, I lost a patient. This is a bad day. This is a lot. And then it's the next day, and then it's the next day. I mean it just keeps on going and you just get, they just get depleted. So whether it's military, who's going across, you know, they're, they're away from support, away from their family, which is the same Covid people are isolated, which is terrible for you guys. Know, it's terrible for depression to be isolated. It's terrible for anxiety to isolate yourself, you've got to have that support and that feedback and that input from people. And then you're isolated in a situation where people are fearing for their life or safety. And maybe they are too, you know, like people really feeling bad for first responders right now, as far as police and firefighters in paramedic and so forth, but they've always gone through this. This is not new to them. People are just becoming aware that it's, that it's going on. But the medical personnel don't get it in quite so much concentration as they do now. But, but ER personnel get this too. Every day. They get, people come in that are suffering, that are hurt, that are fearful. All of this is trauma. And so they're all going to have the trauma responses and it's just ongoing, continuous trauma. So people are just getting depleted and weary and more anxious, more uncertain out of their familiar environment. All the things that are bad for us. Right?

B (14:20)

And then I feel like there is that constant message of more, it's your job show up. Doesn't really matter. I mean, unless you have a fever or something, then that's okay. But you know, if you're, if you're, you're grieving yourself or having your own mental health issues, if that's not a fever, like my assumption, it's like, okay, we'll come to work because we need you. And you know, and we just don't even give time and space for that. And I think that definitely happens in the mental health field. I mean, even people working with trauma and trying to, you know, produce numbers and productivity and not really taking care of themselves and, you know, working with sexual abuse or things like that. So that vicarious, the vicarious trauma in that sense.

D (14:56)

Right. Well, and all the therapists are hearing these stories now. Like I hear, you know, I don't, I don't actually do therapy anymore. I teach. And so, and I like that. I like what I do because I'm better at the, I do suicide interventions. I do crisis inter for responders, and that's my area of expertise. Trauma and suicide intervention. The day after day, you know, seeing patients and clients come into your practice is just continuous. And I keep hearing now therapists there, and I'm exhausted. I'm, you know, just exhausted from sitting at the screen. I'm sure you guys have, you know, talked about that and dealt with that and all of that. Like it's, it's not what you're used to and it's, and it's one after the Other, I mean, it's just like a constant. I had it. This is gonna sound funny, but it's not funny. It's, it's just an analogy. But I had a therapist say, it's like I'm working a kissing booth and I'm having to kiss people all day. I don't, like over and over and they just, there's just this continuous line. I'm like, gross. Like how I feel. I was like, all right, well, I wouldn't have thought of it that way. But you know, it's like this constant. I mean, you are, you're listening to people's emotions and you're taking that in. And like I hear, I hear trauma stories. I listen, listen to the trauma stories of officers and first responders and they're hard and, and you're empathizing and listening to them and hearing them. And then I start thinking about them later and I'm think rethinking these stories and they, they, they tell them to you like a play by play, like you're there and so you're, you know, I've. All that vicarious trauma you've got. I mean, can't push self care enough right now. And, and you know, my training program does that too. Like you're going to hear even the training program, I put real stories in there, people telling their real trauma stories so that, so that counselors will know going through whether they are or aren't cut out for working with responders because it's just a different population. But I mean, you've got to balance that out. It's just taking all that in. It's horrible for you.

C (16:51)

It's heavy. Yeah, it's heavy. It's heavy work. Very intense.

D (16:55)

It really is. That's a good word for it. Yeah. So nice.

B (17:01)

Thanks so much for sharing about that. So what else, you know, I mean, I know that you said you have your 40 hour course and things like that, and you know, I'm curious because sometimes, you know, I think sometimes if therapists aren't really clear on their niche and what their specialty is, as they might want to be helpful and step into the arena of, oh, I got this call, gosh, this person needs me, let me be helpful. But they're not specialized. So what are some things that they can do to kind of understand, like, should I be taking this client, should I not, Should I refer out email immediately? Because you don't, like you said in that that story is you don't want to start to build a relationship and then be like, I can't take you, you know, I have to refer you out because it's a detriment to the client.

D (17:41)

Right. And our, you know, our first rule is do no harm. And so if you think you're going to, you think, oh, that'd be cool, they need me now. I think it'd be cool to work with first responders and so you start looking for them, seeking them or accepting them as clients know first. Like expose yourself first before taking on a client because you can do harm one in just the series of therapy sessions where they start to be vulnerable with you and get to that point and then you're like, I can't take this anymore. But also that may be the one chance, the one opportunity that they give to counseling and you're it. That's a huge, enormous responsibility for a counselor in that position. And so that's why I teach that. I mean it's like go through this program to see if you're, if you're up to it. And I have a whole session in there called, you know, is it, are you right for this? Basically are you up to it? Because it's not for everybody. Everybody does want to help, but everybody isn't the right therapist for every population. And so I think you have to know whether you're the right person to work with a responder or not. And not everybody is. And it's not to say you're not a good, good enough therapist for that. It's just that different people are meant to work with children, different people are meant to work with marriage therapy. Different people, you know, elderly, like whatever your, your, your population is, get really good at that. And if you think you want to work with, with the responder, don't find out by taking one on as a client. Like get online and you know, watch live pd, whatever, watch whatever it is that you can like get the perspective of a responders real world before you ever start taking them on as a client. Because you can do so much long term harm there.

B (19:23)

And I'm also curious. So when people are trained though and they either take your program or train as a trauma therapist and things like that, if they are not like a first responder, military, have been a healthcare provider themselves, how do they connect with the therapist where they feel like, okay, I feel comfortable, I can share, I can expose myself.

D (19:44)

This is a safe place. It's basically from the responder side.

B (19:48)

Yeah.

D (19:49)

When they go into a therapy session, they want to know first that they have a lot of fears. One of them is they're going to shock you. So I kind of teach them. Like, that's why I show real stuff in this. Like, look at real stuff, whether you have not my training program or whatever. But look, get some real perspective so that somebody doesn't come in and tell you a story about a traumatic incident they had on the job. And then you go, oh my gosh, are you serious? That happened? Like, then they're going to go, okay, no, no, no, I can't tell you these things. So you have to just listen. Like you've learned to listen to other stuff. I also have a lot of trauma therapists who think I'm trained in trauma so I can do first responders. And it's not, it's not the same. You can be trained in trauma and great. That's fantastic because they have trauma EMDR certified or trained. Fantastic. Because that helps them. You also have to understand the population cultural competency of them. So if they come in, they want to know one, that you're not going to be shocked by what they say. Two, they have a trust issue because they can lose like law enforcement if a therapist freaks out and says, oh my gosh, they told me that they're suicidal and they call the chief or the department, whatever it is, that that officer can lose their gun and badge and their career. And so they have that fear and it's happened enough. Like it's a reality. It's a realistic fear. It's not supposed to be that way, but there's a lot of, you know, they have to take fit for duty exams and that counselor should be a different one than that's providing therapy. But sometimes that the therapist doesn't understand that and it crosses over, like, who's their client, the department or the officer. It's a huge lack of trust. So they have to know that they can walk into that therapy session and trust that they can tell their story and tell their tell that they're struggling without the therapist overreacting and freaking out and causing problems for their career. So that's one of their biggest, biggest concerns is the confidentiality thing. That's probably their biggest obstacle of all. Yeah.

B (21:48)

Share with us a little bit about kind of like the aspects of your course because I'm very curious. I know you're highlighting some aspects, but it sounds very interesting.

D (21:55)

Yeah, yeah. I'm like real proud of it. Yeah. Fantastic. It is. I've gotten. We have 279, I think last time I looked. Therapists that have gone through it, I just started it last July. So it's not even a year old. It's a 90 day course. You log in and you have 90 days to finish the 40 hours. Because I want it, I don't want someone to just take forever and then not pick up on the material. So I've done adult learning principles and everything integrated into it. It's a gradual release. All the content is released over the first 27 days gradually. So someone doesn't just sit and consume all that on screen trauma at one time. And I want them to take in one session and take that in and think about it and reflect on it before they go to the next day and take a little bit more. So it's. All of this is taken into consideration because I don't want to traumatize the therapists who are going through the thing, but it's basically just to teach the culture. So they have a brotherhood, they've got their back, they're an inner circle. All of these things to teach their culture, to teach the fact that they tell really inappropriate jokes and you can't go, oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that. That's their coping skill. It's one of their coping skills. They also have a lot of other unhealthy coping skills that might shock people. Just the general public who doesn't know that there's a high level of alcoholism and infidelity and divorce and all of the things because they don't go seek counseling. So they don't get, you know, healthy outlets. They find unhealthy outlets. The job is kind of their safe zone. It's what they know. And so they end up working. A lot of them work long, long, long hours, which takes them away from the house. So they have marital problems and family problems. They have the trauma. So you have to, you have to take all of these things into consideration. It's like all of your most, I'm not sure the right word traumatized or high need clients in one. So you have to, you have to balance all that out. They want to, you know, it's. So as I talk about all of that, I talk about trauma. I teach a lot about trauma. I teach about suicide and thoughts, suicide ideology, what leads up to it for them. They are taught to overcome the fear of death as part of their job to a certain level more than the normal person and that. And they have high rates of suicide. I think this year law enforcement is tracked by Blue Help. It's. They've had 60 law enforcement suicides just in 2020. It's high and they have a weapon. They have, you know, all the stress, all the trauma, all the expectations placed on them. So I talk about all of that, all the expectations, the hero expectation, their inability to, or the inability to trust, their hesitation to share what they're going through because they're not supposed to be seen as weak. And if they say, you know, that incident yesterday really is bothering me, they're taken and given a desk job, which is not what they want. They want to continue on. It's all, you know. So I do teach self care for the therapist that's listening to all this. We teach a lot about, we require a ride along as part of the program because I want therapists to go and sit in that police car, sit in that fire engine and go on the ride along for a. I require four hours, but I try to get them to do a shift so that they're actually seeing what they're, what they're going through, but they're also able to sit there and have conversation one on one. And so it's a way for therapists to build rapport with the person and with the department. And that's how then you network in to become a trusted counselor because they know you at that point. So I don't really talk about marketing. I think you guys can do a fantastic job of that. But I do talk about, you know, the need to one on one build trust. You can put a Facebook ad for your therapy session that's not going to. Or your therapy practice that's not, they're not going to go, oh, look, a therapist, they need to know, you know, they are referred by their peers who have found a therapist that they trust and that's really how they build it. So I teach all of that, trying to think what else is in there. But it's basically the all the essentials. And so when someone finishes the program, they understand the culture, they understand the trauma, and I teach some trauma. But obviously being a trauma specialized therapist is going to be great. And then I recommend that you do get EMDR trained or certified if you're not already, because EMDR helps them tremendously and they're willing to do it. So I just kind of go through all of that and teach the whole, like what you might need to know.

C (26:36)

Gosh, your course sounds amazing and I love how thorough it is and you can tell that you are really an expert in this particular niche and you walk people through what it's really like and encouraging them or requiring them to do the ride along that's Amazing. It's interesting because as you're talking about what's included in the program, there are a lot of overlap in terms of core principles with marketing, because we love the marketing stuff. That is our passion. And you're talking about how each clinician that works with first responders, this has to be a passion of theirs. This has to be something that they love to do, that they are fully capable of doing. And they're really called to serve this population, not just the generalist or someone who is specialized in trauma or trained in emdr, and they think they can work with it, but it's just not really for them. So they have to have that passion. And then you're also talking about the importance of really understanding the culture and the ideal client's language, their struggles, their needs, their wants, their desires, and all of that to be able to really help them and build that know, like. And trust factor, which so much of that is what we teach in marketing.

D (27:45)

Right? Right. Absolutely.

C (27:47)

Yeah.

D (27:47)

And I. And I've had responders. Like, when I very first started the program, I got a lot of pushback. You know, I had a Facebook ad or whatever, and I got a bunch of firefighters and cops on there going, oh, like, you can really understand us and teach people to understand us in front of. Because they do think they're. They are special. But, I mean, they do. They know that. You know what I mean? They're different and they know it, and they're proud of it, as they should be. Like, they've gone through a lot. They've earned their right to be unique. But I had a lot of them really giving me a lot of flack. Oh, no, please. You're going to teach people in 40 hours. And so I signed them up for free, and I was like, go through my program and give me all the feedback you can think of that would help make this better. They get to the end and be like, okay, well, that was actually good. Aha. So great. But also give me feedback because. So we're actually working on version two right now, revamping and making it a more intense version, actually, because I've asked for feedback and I go on ride along still and I've done this forever and I go on right along still because I learn every time I learn something new, and they'll tell me something and they'll tell me stories, because I've heard now at midnight it's dark and you're in a patrol car, they're going to tell you a story. You know how you talk in the car, you're not looking at each other. So I've heard so many stories and I've then asked several of them, will you let me record your story or will you make a video of your story? And they do. And so those are part of the program so that the therapist going through the program get that real, like, this is what a session with a responder is going to look like. And then. And I've had several people, just maybe five, who said, this is a great program. I don't think I can do this. And I was like, thank you for acknowledging that and not going, hey, I went through the program. I think I'll take some on. They're like, I don't think I, I don't think this is for me. And I was like, so proud that they realized that before they took on a client, you know, so, Amy, I'm.

B (29:37)

Just, so, I'm really like, Kate, I'm just beyond impressed about your program because you really, you know, you put yourself as a therapist in the position. I love how like, you make it like timed and not overwhelming them with their own trauma. I love how you really create that really experiential experience of requiring them to do a ride along, to really experience what it is to be a first responder's life and what. That is super cool. Kate and I also love training and we try to do a lot of experiential things. As you're talking about your program, it sounds amazing.

D (30:07)

Awesome.

B (30:08)

Yeah. So what do you hope that our listeners really take away from your message today?

D (30:13)

I would say if you have a passion for something, whatever it is, do it and do it at your very best. Learn everything you can. And if you are someone who says, you know, just all of a sudden, oh, I'm seeing responders need help, I think I'll try this. Don't try it with a client. Like, you know, learn everything you can before you take on any, any population as a client. But if you're going to work with responders, and that's just what I happen to be passionate about and who I work with, you know, get. Make that your area of expertise and don't make it a hobby. Like, don't be like, I think I'll try a couple of. Because it's cool to go. I have cops as therapy clients. You know, it's not like it's hard and they need you, they need you a lot. So I would share with, with your, with your audience that they need their responders, need therapists, but they need Good counselors who get them and who want to get them and who are willing to make that extra effort to really understand their unique needs because they do have so many of them. They're not just your typical client walking in who says, I was in a traumatic incident. I need to talk about it. This is a whole different field. So I would say be passionate about it, genuinely care, because they are trained to see that you don't. They're trained to catch lies. You know what I mean? That's what they do. And they'll sense it right away if you're not genuine.

B (31:39)

So just one more quick question, just kind of as we were, as we're wrapping up, one thought I have is obviously I know we're talking about first responders, but with everything happening with COVID we see that in healthcare. Are there any gender differences? Because when I think of like the nursing field, like it is predominantly women and when, like first responders, police officers are predominantly male. So are there any gender differences that we also should be aware of?

D (32:02)

I think the best way for me to answer that question is to say these are all giving professions. They're all caregiving professions. You think of female nurses as like the most compassionate, caring, and they are. And they give of themselves till they have nothing left to give. So do firefighters, so do police officers, so do paramedics. So do 911 communications. They give. They give, they give. I think they've chosen those careers because they care and because they are giving people. So I think there's plenty of female officers and firefighters too. I think they all are of a giving nature and they tend to give of themselves until they're just depleted, no matter what their gender.

B (32:45)

Gotcha.

D (32:45)

Gotcha.

B (32:46)

Okay, cool. And where, if people want to grab your course, where can they get that?

D (32:50)

It's firstrespondercounselor.com awesome.

B (32:54)

And you have a coupon code for our listeners, which is PPS 25. That's 25% off the enrollment price. So that is very generous of you. And really just supporting therapists where they're at and helping the world where it's at now. And like you said, though I agree with you is you have to really get clear, like, is this for you? Is this really what you want to do? And I love, again, going back to the ride along thing, like, that's a perfect opportunity not to. To be in a therapist role and just hear a story and see how you feel about it. Was that too much for you? Did you have a nightmare when you went home about it. It's a good experience to figure out prior to. So, Amy, thank you so much for being with us today and being on this podcast talking about this important topic and Start Nation. We hope that you guys join us next week. In the plans is a recorded podcast we had done previously, but we keep throwing Covid related topics, so who knows. But the plan is I think we recorded this man back in November. Kate, it was before you went on maternity leave.

C (33:52)

Yeah, it's been a while. It was a fun podcast, though. It was.

B (33:56)

And we had Laura Long, myself and Kate, and we were talking about the good, the bad and the ugly of launching online products. So that might be next week or it might be in the future. Either way, it will eventually be there and you guys can definitely enjoy that.

C (34:08)

Podcast and Startup Nation, we hope that you guys are enjoying each podcast episode. They're so unique and every, every guest expert that we have brings such a wealth of information. Amy, it was an absolute pleasure having you on today. I was quiet for so much of the podcast because I was just in awe of everything you were talking about and your passion and your wealth of knowledge and expertise in this particular area. And it's such an important area to help clinicians really be the most effective they can possibly be. So thank you for coming on and.

D (34:39)

Absolutely.

C (34:40)

And if you guys. Yes, of course, Startup Nation, if you guys are enjoying this episode as much as we are, definitely let us know. We love to hear from you. When we get a random email saying, you know, hey, this, this episode really spoke to me. That's something that makes our day. And let us know if there's a topic that we have not talked about yet because we're always inspired by the. The opportunity to serve you best. And we hope you guys continue to stay safe and healthy in the midst of our pandemic. And we will look forward to seeing you next week. Stay inspired.

B (35:10)

Take care, everybody.

C (35:12)

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

D (35:34)

Sam.