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Private Practice Startup Podcast
Episode 198: Unpacking Whiteness with White Identifying Clients in Therapy
00:39:40
Amanda Gaudet
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Private Practice Startup podcast where we help ambitious private practitioners across the globe to brand themselves and grow their dream practices. We chat with successful private practitioners, business coaches and marketing experts, bringing you tons of practice building Ninja tips. Visit privatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, attorney approved private practice paperwork and our signature marketing E course. Here are your co hosts, Dr. Kate Campbell and Katie Lemieux.
- [00:30]
B
Hey there startup nation. Welcome. Welcome back to another episode of the Private Practice Startup podcast. We are really happy that you guys are here and really excited about our guests and the topic that we're going to be talking about today. With the continued systemic racism in our society, Kate and I are committed to really being better leaders for our community and really having these discussions with you guys on topics of race and therapy really across the continuum. And we know that this is, you know, an ever continuing thing. So today we welcome Amanda Godet, licensed clinical social worker and we're going to be talking about unpacking whiteness with white identifying clients. So he and I have been really consuming a lot of information, taking actions, understanding and learning. And one of the things that we have noticed is the questions about like how to bring up race and therapy. So we're going to be talking about that today and Amanda is going to guide us in a discussion on that before we get started. We hope that you guys joined us last week as we chat with Dr. Joe Eckler and we talked about working when you are not getting well. So as a therapist having a chronic illness, you know, how do you navigate your own health and wellness as well as being a business owner. So we hope that you guys checked that out and if you're brand new to our podcast, welcome. We know that this might be a difficult and tough conversation, especially if you are a white therapist. And we're going to really invite you to stay and listen through the whole podcast. We understand if you might not get through it in one fell swoop, but come back and finish the conversation and we're going to be having more of these conversations throughout and we really hope that this helps you and begins to transform your practice. And the beautiful thing as therapists is we are change agents of the world. So we have a really awesome ability and privilege to have these difficult conversations with our clients, not only about race, but so many other things and really transform and change the world. So that's my hope for you guys and if you are a loyal member, welcome back. For our our new people here, we're opening you with welcome arms and we have a gift for you. If you head on over to private practicestartup.com head on over to the Resources tab. Whether you like paperwork or not, paperwork is here to stay and we have a free paperwork course all about the consent and everything you guys need in your consent. And that comes with a free HIPAA download which is attorney approved and completely customizable. So take advantage of that. That is in the resource section of our podcast. So a little bit about Amanda Amanda's a licensed clinical social worker currently working in training, consulting and organizational development at a large nonprofit in New York City. She's passionate about dismantling systemic oppression at all levels. She considers herself a life learner and is committed to social justice. Welcome Amanda hi.
- [03:19]
A
Welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [03:21]
B
Oh really, our sincere pleasure. And thank you for saying yes for this very important conversation. Yes, we're going to kind of turn it over to you and ask where do you want to dive in? Where would be the best place for us to start?
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C
While you're thinking about that, Amanda, I think let's go ahead and take a quick sponsor break and then dive in.
- [03:40]
B
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- [04:26]
C
Comes to keeping your practice organized, you want software that's not only simple, but the best. We recommend TherapyNotes. Their platform lets you manage notes, claims, scheduling and they have a new awesome telehealth platform for your online counseling sessions. They offer amazing unlimited phone support and email support, so when you have a question, they are there to help. To get started with the practice management software trusted by over 60,000 professionals, go to therapynotes.com and start a free trial today. Enter promo code PPS as in private Practice Startup and they will give you two months to try for free. Go to therapynotes.com Amanda how did you get inspired to focus on this particular passion of yours and the topic of oppression and race and all of this.
- [05:18]
A
Such a good question and a big one. I think it really started for me growing up and seeing, you know, I was raised by a single parent, and both my mother and my brother struggled with mental health illnesses throughout really significant parts of my life growing up. And it really impacted my. My worldview and what I saw. And I started to really be curious about how different families had to struggle with things that other families did not. And I started to really question seeing, like, this unfairness and these inequities that existed all around me. And I just kept on asking more and more questions. And then with that, it started to like, open up this whole place where there's all these different systemic, oppressive, oppressive systems that exist. And I just kept learning and questioning and with it, it just became like, this is like a moral, ethical obligation to keep going. Like, this is so imperative. So I've just continued to pursue that with curiosity and a lot of passion about how important this, this work is.
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B
Nice. I love that it started at such a young age for you.
- [06:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And I mean, I would. I will definitely own that. For me, the. The. My knowledge of racism didn't start as young because I was. Because I was raised in a predominantly white suburb and that was there, but I wasn't. It wasn't talked about so much in my family. So that has been a journey alongside it. But those questions started to pull me in that direction.
- [07:08]
B
Well, it's interesting because I find a lot of therapists, obviously is usually we have a calling. Right. And we're called to this work for sure. So thank you for sharing that. So, you know, one of the things that I am seeing and even some of like I had posted in our own group about, you know, how are you guys bringing up race and therapy? Just kind of putting it out there. And There was only 7 comments on there. And it just really got me thinking, like, okay, if there's only 7 comments on here, it's either probably not being discussed. If you're a white therapist, you don't really know how to talk about it. So that really prompted this idea of, like, let's talk about this topic specifically.
- [07:42]
A
Yeah.
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B
So share with us how so as a white therapist. Right. How do we navigate that with our client?
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A
I think that everything really starts with thinking about our own identities. We have to think about. I know a lot of us have gone through therapeutic training. We think about the use of self. We think about locating ourselves in the room. And it's so important that we need to first Think about, like, what are the identities that I hold? And for white identifying therapists, Whiteness is a really important one that we hold and one that we don't have a lot of experience holding and thinking about. A lot of us have thought of ourselves as women or what that means to walk, you know, in the world as a woman or a cisgendered woman or perhaps someone who, you know, identifies as belonging to a certain class or sexual orientation. But we don't have a lot of practice thinking of ourselves as white and even knowing what does that even mean to be white. So I think for white therapists, we really have to start there and asking ourselves, okay, what are the identities that I hold and what has been my experience as a white person in this world? And what does it mean to be white and to think about that and unpack that for ourselves? And very important. I could go on.
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B
What are some of the questions that you would like? So for people listening?
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A
Right.
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B
Like, what are some of the questions that they should be asking themselves to unpack that?
- [09:31]
A
Yeah. So I think that it's really helpful to think about the experiences that you've had as a white person and to think about how that is connected to the experiences that people of color have or black indigenous people of color, and what's the relationship between the two, because they don't exist apart from one another. They are very connected. And part of the reason why white people don't think of themselves as white and kind of think of themselves as, like, neutral is to hold the system in place that really disregards that race matters, that really disregards that my whiteness exists to protect me and give me comfort and privilege at the expense of many black and indigenous people of color. And how those are interconnected is a really important thing. And I know we've mentioned the word systemic, and that's a word that we're hearing around and really understanding. Okay, well, how do the systems that I interact with perpetuate these inequities? How do they, you know, if I'm working in a nonprofit, for instance, like, I am. So some things that we ask ourselves, like, ask is how. What are the staff in the nonprofit made up of, you know, what levels of leadership do they hold? And what's their. What's their race? How are positions of power being divided by race? And then we need to also be thinking and looking curiously all the time about that with our clients as well. So when our client is telling us something, it's really important for us to think about how systemic oppression is affecting them, whether that's. They're protected from it. Maybe you have a white client who's actually quite oblivious to everything that's going on right now, or they don't want to talk about it, or they're angry and they're frustrated that everything is about race right now. And they're like, why can't we just, you know, talk about something else? I don't understand. You know, I've never. I've never said anything to, you know, I'm not racist. I've never said anything racist before. And you might see that, or you might see somebody else come in there, and they're really feeling, you know, white clients really feeling guilty and confused and unsure, and we have to be able to talk to them about that. And it's really helpful to realize that it's normal to have all those feelings.
- [12:24]
B
So can we, like, with. Let's kind of like, take that into two. Right? So for clients who are coming in and, like, kind of being defensive and, like, why is there all this race talk?
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A
How do we.
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B
How do we explore that with them? And then how would we explore that with, you know, clients that are feeling guilty and things like that? And it feels very much right. Like, I'm sure a lot of people are asking. It feels very much like, well, you know, one of the questions or one of the things that we're talking about, like, before we hit record, right. Is therapist. You know, Kate and I went to the same school, and part of our training was, you know, utilizing what the client brings up. Right. And so I think there's another piece to it. It's like, okay, if the client's not bringing this up, like, how do we talk about that? So that would be a third piece. And then, like, thinking about, you know, I can only imagine, especially as a therapist, and you're feeling a certain way about this, and a client, you know, has a very, very opinionated belief, whether it's race or sexuality or whatever. And I've been in this situation before and thinking, like, okay, like, Katie, this is not. This is not your session. This is not about you, you know. You know, and dealing with all of that stuff that comes up for us, too. So I'm, like, notorious at asking, like, three different questions at once. Let's take question number one, which was your client brings up and is defensive about race. Let's talk that there first, and then we'll.
- [13:46]
A
Yes, I think that it's so important to really check ourselves when we're in any kind of space talking about Race, especially as white therapists or white people or white identifying people, that we don't have a lot of practice. Like I was just describing before how we haven't thought about ourselves as white, many of us, we therefore really don't have a lot of practice talking about race. And a lot of us don't have the stamina to hold all of the discomfort and the difficult emotions that come up. So as therapists, it's like, we have to learn how to grow that muscle. Or as white people, we really have to learn how to manage those feelings when we're talking about race and to recognize them when they come up. Before we press record, we were talking about a concept called white fragility. And I think that that's really helpful here.
- [14:53]
C
So.
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A
So white fragility teaches us the same thing, that we don't have the practice, we don't have the muscle to talk about race. And because of that, all of these, like, defenses come up. Whether that might be, like, anger, shutting down, crying, disengagement, all these things are going to come up. So we knowing that we have to be like, okay, that's going to happen, and we have to be compassionate with ourselves when we stumble and make mistakes, because we're going to. There's no perfect here. There's no confident. I know the model when I do it. It's just going to work, you know, like, that's not how this works. When we talk about race, like, we're going to make mistakes and we're going to have to be more vulnerable and okay with that than we. Than we usually are very comfortable with. And we have to give our clients the same compassion and the same humility. Like, recognizing and joining with the fact, like, this is really uncomfortable to talk about. Like, how do you feel when we talk about this? What's coming up for you? Yeah, like, so many people feel that way. A lot of people feel angry and confused. Like, what am I being accused of? Or what's the big deal? I don't understand. And that is so common. That's such a common experience that people have or white people have when they're talking about race or hearing about race. And you can then maybe if that person might be receptive, you could ask, like, could I tell you a little bit why I think that is? Or we think that is. And really normalize that. Yeah, this is super uncomfortable. And people do get defensive. So that's a pretty important strategy, I think, talking to a client who's angry and similarly talking to a client. I know we Were talking about someone who's feeling guilty. Because guilt, that's another really common reaction that a lot of white people are feeling right now. And it's driving a lot of us to be like, what can I do better? Oh, like I need to read, Do I need to march? Do I need to sign up for things? I need to do something. I have this like urgency to do something. So if you understand that, you can kind of talk to your clients about that urgency that they're having and that which is really driven by guilt, what are they feeling guilty about?
- [17:38]
C
I just wanted to chime in really quickly and talking about the white fragility because that is such an eye opening concept to learn about. And for any white therapist out there, if you are just hearing these terms and this is very new to you, I want to encourage you to dig deeper, to lean in towards this work and really expand your awareness and understanding. And Dr. Robin DiAngelo has a book called White Fragility all about this concept. There's also a YouTube video. We'll put the link in the resources section in the podcast show notes so that way you guys can do some more work there. Because I know in terms of my own experience, it's been very eye opening and very helpful to understand reasons why. Personally, I have hesitated in the past to bring up concepts, conversations about race because people are so defensive oftentimes and it can be such an emotionally charged conversation. And so if you're experiencing that and you felt that in the past, you're not alone. And yeah, there's so much to learn and I'm so grateful to have you here today, Amanda, talking about this. I just wanted to acknowledge that resource.
- [18:46]
A
So let's come back to that. Great plug.
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C
Yeah, the guilt conversation.
- [18:51]
A
Yeah, thank you. I would love to add, if you.
- [18:53]
B
Guys don't mind too. And I have watched that video too as well and that was really helpful and you know, been right where you're talking about, right, the emotionality and still of it still today. But what, what really is really helpful about that video and I think as therapists is we have the opportunity to have kind of a leg up because we understand these things, right? Like understanding social construct and systemic theories and stuff like that. And that allowed me to kind of step back and really kind of be more of a change agent and step more powerfully into, okay, well what do we do? What is the right action? You know, how can like I manage my own emotion, right? And step back and listen and be here and be present and also to you Know, having really great colleagues that can hear us and talk through those things when we're having difficulty. Right. I, you know, I like to, as humans, I'm sure we relate this to a lot. Like I can imagine if you're a couples counselor and you're going through a divorce, right. And your couples are talking about divorce, well, that might be triggering for you. So what would we do in other contexts when things are triggering for us or we're having our own personal emotional experiences is we would try to remain curious. Right. Ask questions and we would seek consultation and supervision and maybe our own therapy and things like that. So, you know, the conversation is definitely helpful in looking at it from different contexts of what would we do already. So I love that you're saying is, you know, being able to create a space to validate, reflect, normalize, expressing understanding. So that was really helpful.
- [20:28]
A
Yeah. And I'm so glad you brought up like supervision. That was actually one of the things I wanted to bring up today. I think that it's so helpful to have are really not even just helpful. That's an understatement. It's essential to have support doing this work. This work cannot happen all by yourself. We can't take this on. It's so big. Racism, sexism, all those things we're talking about racism today. It's huge. It's embedded, it's entrenched. And you, this one person, are not going to be able to, to fix it. So it's so important that we're doing this work collectively and with that means, like we need support outside. So if you're, you know, practicing, practicing as a therapist, there, there are different types of support that you can consider. One, if you're lucky, maybe you have a supervisor who already has an anti racist lens. They understand racial trauma, they understand whiteness and concepts of white fragility and they can support and guide you. If you have that, you're lucky. You probably don't. I think that a lot of people aren't trained in this area, but there are people who you could seek outside consultation with that are. And another way that I have personally found super helpful is joining what's called an affinity group. Affinity groups are a peer space of people with common identities. So in this case, joining a white affinity group would be meaning joining a space with all other white people who are dedicated to anti racism. And this group is a space that you can be brave, be vulnerable and get guidance and support about unpacking your whiteness and privilege, about not intentionally perpetuating harm and how you can talk about things with other people. Talking about this with family is a very common topic in white affinity groups. I myself can relate. I've struggled so much talking with family members, and if I didn't have that space where I could come and get support with, how do I do this? Oh, I would feel, like, so alone and so helpless. So I really, really recommend looking for white affinity groups. If you can't find one where you live, you can also consider, you know, creating one and looking and doing research. But if you can find one that exists, that they're really.
- [23:19]
B
Thank you. So, Amanda, talk to us about when we're in the therapy room and race doesn't come up. How do we approach that and continue to help people be curious?
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A
Well, I think today we kind of have. We have a unique opportunity because today racism is really in our face. You know, it's always been here. These racial inequities have always existed. But over the past few months, things have become so much more intense with the murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, as well as the impact that COVID 19, has had disproportionately on people of color and communities of color. So we're seeing the impacts of racism so. So much that it's pretty fair to ask our clients, like, how this has impacted them, how are they feeling about it? Just the same way that many of us have probably asked them how Covid in general, whether they're living in quarantine or they're an essential worker or they've lost their job, whatever it is, we ask about those things. We ask about how current social events affect our clients, and this is one of them. So I think that it's totally okay to bring it into the room by just asking them, how are they doing with this? How has it affected them?
- [24:59]
B
And so. And I appreciate that. And I'm thinking kind of like, moving forward, right? Because as anything's going on in the world and there's like, a heightened sense of it, eventually things kind of die down and get quiet. And so then how do we keep the conversation going, even when this is not so present right now? How do we get comfortable with that? You know, what is your advice on that?
- [25:23]
A
That's a great question and a hard one. You know, to be honest, I would say that I'm. It. It's so much easier if you kind of set it up as, like, that's kind of your. Your style, you know, in the sense of, like, this is. This is part of my. My practice. This is part of my. My therapeutic lens is I bring up social identities, I bring up oppression. We talk about it here. I acknowledge it. So when you already kind of normalize that this is something that we talk about in this space, it's a lot easier. I'm. When you haven't done that, you're going to be gonna have to make a shift. And in making a shift, you know, your clients are probably gonna respond to the change, and they might, you know, do that in a different. Different ways. But you can also talk to them about why you think it's so important to. To include it. And many of our clients carry subjugated identities. So maybe your client that you're working with is someone who identifies as queer, for instance. We would really be doing that disservice if we didn't address the effects that transphobia or homophobia has impacted that person's life, how they think of themselves, how they think of their place in the world. So you can really use other parts of that person's identity to really affirm. Like, that's why we talk about it here, because I understand these systems. They impact your life, they impact my life, they impact all of our lives. So it's important to talk about them.
- [27:14]
B
I'm curious. I know that I had seen you respond to someone on Facebook, and you had some really good questions about remaining curious and helping people explore their own whiteness. Can you share with us some of those questions that you help, you know, other white people deal with? Especially if, I mean, I guess it either way, right? Like, if they're harboring the guilt or shame or if you're defensive, what are some of the things that you talk about with clients?
- [27:41]
A
Yeah, I like to ask anyone, you know, whether they are. Whether they are white, whether they are a person of color about their experiences forming their own racial identity. And what that really means is, like, asking them how they identify racially. Of course, like, we need to ask that we shouldn't assume. And asking them, well, when did you. When did you realize. First realize that you were white? Maybe that person, you know, you could get so many different answers. Maybe someone's like, well, I never really thought of myself that way before. Or maybe someone might answer, oh, with a very specific, you know, memory. And you can also ask things like, well, what are. What were some messages that you received growing up about what it meant to be white? Like, what did people say? What do people not say? Because a lot of times I know, especially for white people, it's what people don't say. And the COVID way that these messages are taught is really. They're there. They just might be a little bit more subtle. So asking someone about the experience, the messages that they received growing up and, you know, maybe the experiences that they had when they were reminded of their whiteness, like, in spaces that they've had. Like, I know, for example, when I moved to New York City, I have this, like, vivid memory of myself when I was an intern, social work school, and I was doing case management, and I got on a bus, and I, like, was commuting to go see this client, and. And I got on the bus, and I was the only white person on the bus. And I had never had that experience before. And it would have been so helpful if I had someone to kind of reflect with me. Like, what was that? Like, what did that. You know, what did that mean for you? Why do you think you'd never had that experience before? And then that would kind of lead into, you know, really naturally into conversations about, like, well, I've always lived so segregated, and there can just be so much. There's just, like, layers. It's really like peeling an onion that there's just, like, asking one question after the other to really get someone to be thinking about all of these different racial experiences that they've had. And you can. There'll just be more and more underneath each layer that you peel.
- [30:29]
B
Yeah. As you're talking, I'm, like, answering all of these in my own mind and. And looking back and in those places and things like that. And then also just looking back, like, as a kid and a teenager. Right. Like, I had a best guy. I grew up in Connecticut, a predominantly white area, but I had a best guy friend that was Spanish, and his name was Mario. And my dad's side of the family is Italian. And when my grandmother met Mario, she thought he was Italian. She's, oh, Mario. That's a nice Italian name. And he's like, oh, no, I'm Puerto Rican. And she, like, turned around and walked away, and it was like, oh, my gosh. Right? And it's like. But then, like, as a teen and a child, it's kind of like.
- [31:09]
A
That.
- [31:09]
B
Was like, what do you do with that? So I can only imagine as you begin to ask these questions, like you said, it's just, like, feeling. And it's like, wow, Yeah, I did experience that and do anything about that. What would I do in the future? How am I carrying that out now? How am I staying quiet now? And so I just. I really appreciate this conversation because I just can see when we like just being curious about these things. Right. Like whether it's, you know, how did you know you were gay? What messages did you receive about that? How did that shape your experience? Or even if you're, if you're heterosexual. Did you ever think about that?
- [31:39]
A
Yeah.
- [31:39]
B
How's that shaped your experiences around others? So this has just been so helpful to just really unpack this in a therapeutic way. And for me, not, you know, not, not being so worried, you know, I know for white therapists, white folks, it's always like you want to say the right thing. You know, King and I already deal with that anyways. We always want to make sure we're saying the right thing or not offending people or. And so. But you know, with these difficult topics that we're not so educated on and have that, you know, understanding it can be a little bit more difficult to navigate. So I know, I really appreciate this and I'm sure everybody listening is appreciating this as well. Kate?
- [32:19]
C
Absolutely.
- [32:20]
A
I didn't see you nodding your head over there.
- [32:21]
C
Yeah, I'm just, I'm agreeing with. Obviously listeners can't tell. I'm just nodding. I'm agreeing with everything that Katie's saying. And Amanda, it's been so helpful to have you come on and talk about this because it is a topic that is difficult to bring up, especially if clients aren't bringing it to the forefront. I know for me as a therapist, I was always taught to work with what the clients bring to you. But if you're only doing that and you're not acknowledging some of the other very important contextual aspects, what disservice are we doing as therapists? And right now, obviously, all of the racial unrest and everything is very much in the forefront on social media, on news, in our families and politics. I mean, it's just everywhere as it should be. Because change needs to happen and change is happening and we can all be part of that. And it was helpful to hear you asking different types of questions for how we can navigate these conversations after things calm down a little bit, you know, if things do calm down with this topic, because it is something that is going to be a lifelong important topic for us all to better understand our own participation as white people, white therapists, white leaders for Katie and I, and how to navigate this to assure that we are being allies, that we are doing our own anti racism work and that we can really encourage our community to do the same to really create that systemic change that so desperately needs to happen.
- [34:01]
A
Yeah, it's really like a lifetime commitment. I'm glad you brought that up. It's. You are a lifelong learner. You're never gonna. You're never gonna pass. You're in it.
- [34:13]
C
It's been interesting because Katie and I didn't realize how many blind spots that we have had. And we've been going through our own process of really learning and understanding and living, listening and growing as individuals, as business partners, and then also as leaders for our community. And we are just really highly motivated to continue that process and continue to support Startup Nation and going through their own journey with this and really making sure that they're uncovering these hidden areas that are so very important. What do you ultimately want Startup Nation to take away from your message today, Amanda?
- [34:52]
A
That is a good question. I would say that commitment, like committing is to this and not letting it kind of go away is the thing that I would want you to take away the most. That these issues have always been important. Racism and all of the different intersections of oppression have always been with us.
- [35:19]
C
And.
- [35:20]
A
And we really can't be doing the work if we're not including them, if we're not always bringing them to the table, if we're not always looking through those lenses and asking questions about how they're being played out. We have to do it for ourselves, for the clients that we serve, for our communities that we serve. We've got to stay committed.
- [35:43]
B
And one thing that I found really helpful is I know that as we talk through, you were asking the questions as if we would ask a client.
- [35:50]
A
Right.
- [35:51]
B
Obviously, as a therapist, our work is to do our work so we can fully be present. And I would encourage anyone listening is that you begin asking yourself those questions that Amanda shared. Because another thing that popped into my mind is have I, as, you know, as a woman in the world, thought about my own oppression?
- [36:12]
A
Right?
- [36:13]
B
Like, have I thought about that?
- [36:14]
A
What is that?
- [36:14]
B
Like, what are my experiences? Like you said, what are your experiences of racism or not experiences of racism or sexism, like all the isms. And I don't know that I've, like, sat down and thought about that a lot or talked about that a lot or had discussions a lot. So that was really helpful as you ask those, to just start thinking about those things and then it just makes it more of a conversation. It's like, yeah, we've all had experiences and then we can just naturally do that. And I think one of the things that is important is, you know, if you are listening to this for the first time and you know, you're kind of hesitant is taking action anyway, knowing that you might not do it. Right. Knowing that you might mess up and then just being responsible for that and having the support of others to really help guide you through this and then taking action again. You know what I mean? Like taking a risk doing it anyway. And that's okay?
- [37:11]
A
Absolutely. Like, bravery is important here. Bravery, we need it. You're going to be scared, you're going to be confused, you're going to be uncertain, and that's okay. And keep going anyway. Embrace. Discomfort is a word we use or a phrase we use a lot in anti racist work. And that's exactly. You described it so well. Right. Like how we have to keep going. Anyway, Amanda, thank you so much for.
- [37:39]
B
Being here with us today. This was really helpful in Startup Nation. You know, I know we usually say, I hope you enjoyed this podcast. Podcast. I don't, I don't know that this is a podcast, quote unquote, to be enjoyed, but this is a podcast to do something with.
- [37:50]
A
Right.
- [37:51]
B
Is asking yourself the own question, your own questions, taking action, being willing to mess up, doing it anyway. And we're going to continue these conversations throughout, like Amanda said. And Kate and I are committed to, you know, this lifelong journey with you and really helping and support you guys as a community and showing up as leaders in this community. And you know what, one of the things that Kate and I are looking at is like, where are we including people where whose voices are not being heard? So if there's a podcast topic or discussion that we are not having, email us and we would love to have you guys on the podcast to begin to bring these conversations to like, one of the things that Kate and I really thought is, is, you know, we've focused so much on the business aspect of what we do, but we also realize that we cannot take the therapist out of the business. And so we need to be having more of these conversations with you guys as well as business conversations. So thank you guys for joining us. We hope that you guys check out next week as we chat with Whitney Owens talking about five pitfalls between churches and counselors.
- [38:54]
A
Thank you.
- [38:55]
B
Thanks, Amanda, for being here.
- [38:57]
C
Thank you so much, Amanda. We'll see you next time, Startup Nation. In the meantime, stay inspired. Thanks for joining us on the Private Practice Startup. Visit the private practices startup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more. It.