Episode Summary

Podcast: Private Practice Startup Podcast
Hosts: Dr. Kate Campbell & Katie Lemieux
Guest: Amanda Godet, LCSW
Episode: 198 – Unpacking Whiteness with White Identifying Clients in Therapy
Date: June 27, 2020

Overview of the Episode

This episode addresses the challenge and importance of discussing race—specifically “whiteness”—with white-identifying clients in therapy, a topic increasingly relevant amidst systemic racism and heightened sociopolitical awareness. Guest Amanda Godet, LCSW, draws on both her professional and personal journey to guide white therapists in self-reflection, building anti-racist practices, and proactively addressing race in the therapy room. The conversation is candid about the discomfort, lack of practice, and emotional charge that comes with these discussions, and offers both practical approaches and reflective questions for clinicians.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Amanda’s Journey & Inspiration

Timestamps: 05:17–07:07

• Amanda’s curiosity about inequity started young, shaped by experiences witnessing mental illness in her family.
• Her understanding of racism and systemic oppression evolved over time, particularly growing up in a predominantly white area where race wasn’t often discussed.
• Quote: “I started to really be curious about how different families had to struggle with things that other families did not...and then with that, it started to like, open up this whole place where there's all these different systemic, oppressive systems that exist.” (05:17)

Where White Therapists Start: Self-Reflection

Timestamps: 07:51–09:23

• Therapists must first examine their own identities, especially whiteness, which they may rarely consider.
• Amanda stresses the importance of considering how one’s own white identity shapes experience and client interactions.
• Quote: “For white therapists, we really have to start there and asking ourselves, okay, what are the identities that I hold and what has been my experience as a white person in this world?” (07:51)

Questions for Self-Exploration

Timestamps: 09:27–12:23

• Examine personal experiences as a white person and how they relate to people of color.
• Reflect on the connection between white comfort and the discomfort or oppression of others.
• Consider how institutions one belongs to perpetuate racial inequities.
• Reflective Practice: Think about power structures in workplaces, leadership demographics, and how systems protect or disadvantage racial groups.

Navigating Client Reactions: Guilt, Defensiveness, and Discomfort

Timestamps: 12:35–17:38

• Clients may react defensively, minimize race discussions, or express guilt and confusion. Therapists must be ready for, and normalize, these reactions.
• Discuss the concept of “white fragility”—the defensive moves white people make to avoid racial stress (referencing Robin DiAngelo’s work).
• Quote: “All these things are going to come up. So knowing that, we have to be like, okay, that's going to happen, and we have to be compassionate with ourselves when we stumble and make mistakes, because we're going to. There's no perfect here.” (14:53)
• Validate and hold space for anger, confusion, or guilt. Encourage clients to speak honestly and reflect on why they feel this way.

The Therapist’s Own Process: Support, Supervision, Affinity Groups

Timestamps: 20:27–23:18

• Amanda strongly recommends seeking peer support, consulting with anti-racist supervisors or groups, and joining or forming white affinity groups for ongoing reflection and accountability.
• Quote: “It's essential to have support doing this work. This work cannot happen all by yourself. We can't take this on. It's so big...” (20:27)

Bringing Up Race When Clients Don’t

Timestamps: 23:18–25:22

• Use current events as a bridge: If race isn’t brought up, it’s appropriate to ask about its impact, just as one would with any major societal issue.
• Normalize conversations about social identity and oppression as part of the therapist’s lens or practice philosophy.
• Even after media attention fades, make open conversation about identity an ongoing, normalized part of therapy.

Techniques & Questions for Unpacking Whiteness

Timestamps: 27:14–31:08

• Ask open questions:
  • How do you identify racially?
  • When did you first realize you were white?
  • What messages did you receive about whiteness growing up?
  • Can you recall times you were aware of your white identity?
  • What did people say (or not say) about race in your upbringing?
• Layered inquiry allows therapists and clients to unpack identity and explore its impacts.
• Quote: “There's just, like, layers. It's really like peeling an onion...asking one question after the other to really get someone to be thinking about all of these different racial experiences that they've had.” (30:29)

Therapist Discomfort and the Risk of Mistakes

Timestamps: 31:38–37:11

• Acknowledge the anxiety around “saying the right thing.”
• Therapist’s fear of making mistakes shouldn’t prevent them from acting.
• Action and reflection, even imperfectly, are essential to growth.
• Quote: “Taking action anyway, knowing that you might not do it right. Knowing that you might mess up and then just being responsible for that and having the support of others to really help guide you through this and then taking action again.” (36:14)

Lifelong Commitment to Anti-Racism

Timestamps: 34:52–35:43

• Anti-racism is a “lifetime commitment,” not a one-time training or topic.
• Remain vigilant and self-reflective to prevent complacency.
• Quote: “Commitment, like committing to this and not letting it kind of go away is the thing that I would want you to take away the most. That these issues have always been important.” (34:52)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Self-Reflection:
  “We really have to start there...what are the identities that I hold and what has been my experience as a white person in this world?” (07:51 — Amanda Godet)

• On White Fragility:
  “We don't have the stamina to hold all of the discomfort and the difficult emotions that come up...all these things are going to come up.” (14:53 — Amanda Godet)

• On Support:
  “It's essential to have support doing this work. This work cannot happen all by yourself.” (20:27 — Amanda Godet)

• On Lifelong Learning:
  “It's really like a lifetime commitment. I'm glad you brought that up. You are a lifelong learner. You're never gonna...You're never gonna pass. You're in it.” (34:00 — Amanda Godet)

• On Bravery & Action:
  “Bravery is important here. You're going to be scared, you're going to be confused, you're going to be uncertain, and that's okay. And keep going anyway.” (37:11 — Amanda Godet)

• On Making Change:
  “As therapists is we are change agents of the world. So we have a really awesome ability and privilege to have these difficult conversations with our clients...and really transform and change the world.” (02:18 — Katie Lemieux)

Key Takeaways for Therapists

• Examine your own whiteness and ask yourself difficult questions.
• Normalize and initiate conversations about race and oppression with all clients, including those who are white.
• Expect discomfort—yours and your clients’—but hold compassionate, non-defensive space for it.
• Don’t do the work in isolation; seek out supervision, affinity groups, or peer support.
• Stay committed—anti-racism work is ongoing, not something to check off a list.
• Encourage therapists to act, even imperfectly, and be willing to reflect, apologize, and try again.

Resource Recommendations

• Book: White Fragility by Dr. Robin DiAngelo
• YouTube: Dr. Robin DiAngelo explaining "white fragility" (as referenced in the episode)
• Affinity Groups: Seek out or start a local or online affinity group for white therapists committed to anti-racism

Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:17 – Amanda’s personal journey into social justice and race topics
• 07:51 – Beginning the work: therapist self-reflection on white identity
• 12:35 – How to address client defensiveness and guilt
• 14:53 – “White fragility” and therapist/client discomfort
• 20:27 – Importance of consultation and affinity groups
• 23:18 – Bringing up race with clients who do not mention it
• 27:14 – Reflective questions to help clients (and ourselves) explore whiteness
• 34:52 – Closing thoughts: the necessity of lifelong commitment

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, supportive, and intentionally nonjudgmental, with space for vulnerability and honest acknowledgment of the discomfort and stumbles which are inevitable in anti-racist work. The hosts and guest repeatedly emphasize normalizing mistakes, remaining curious, and bravely engaging anyway.

This episode serves as a rich primer for exploring whiteness, fostering reflective anti-racist practices, and creating space for meaningful action and change—both within oneself and in the therapy room.