Episode 199: The 5 Pitfalls Between Counselors and Churches

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Private Practice Startup Podcast

Episode 199: The 5 Pitfalls Between Counselors and Churches
Hosts: Dr. Kate Campbell & Katie Lemieux
Guest: Whitney Owens, LPC
Date: July 4, 2020

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the unique challenges and opportunities faced by therapists who seek to build relationships with churches as referral sources, particularly for those who identify as faith-based practitioners. Guest Whitney Owens, an LPC and consultant specializing in faith-based practice development, shares her expertise on navigating partnerships with churches, common pitfalls, practical marketing strategies, and managing dual relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Whitney Owens’ Background & Approach

• Personal Connection to Faith: Whitney describes faith as fundamental throughout her life and professional journey, influencing her decision to become a therapist and her approach to practice. (03:41)
• Faith-Based Training: She attended graduate school with an integrated faith and clinical counseling curriculum. (04:46)
• Framing the Practice: Whitney emphasizes balancing faith identity:

  "Being a Christian counselor just means you’re a counselor and you’re also a Christian. And let’s just put those together." – Whitney (05:13)
  She avoids overt faith marketing to clients, instead tailoring messaging based on audience.

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Counselors’ Main Challenges in Faith-Based Practice

• Describing Faith-Based Services: Clear branding without alienating or limiting potential clients is a key challenge. (05:09)
• Understanding Client Needs: Clients vary in their desire for integrated faith-based counseling—some request it directly, while others may not. (06:16)
• Marketing Differentiation: Whitney modifies her message depending on whether she’s speaking to churches or the general public. (06:50)

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Building Relationships with Churches

The Power of Networking

• Relationships Over Brochures: Whitney’s strategy involves reaching out personally to pastors—inviting them for coffee or lunch, asking about their pain points, and focusing on building genuine relationships. (07:19)
• Pastors’ Pain Points: Common issues pastors face:
  • Time-consuming situations (divorce, anxiety, depression)
  • Lack of clinical training to address persistent mental health needs
    Whitney counsels pastors:

  "If you’re having to meet with someone more than twice, you need to be referring them out. You’ve got plenty of other things that you need to be doing other than counseling in your office." – Whitney (08:03)

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The Five Pitfalls Between Counselors and Churches

1. Not Knowing Each Other (09:38)

   • Counselors may be unaware of local churches, and pastors may not know trustworthy counselors to refer to.
   • Action: Research and reach out to churches; ensure you’re on referral lists.

2. Lack of Trust (12:56)

   • Pastors are cautious about whom they refer their congregation to; they may not trust counselors' approaches.
   • Advice: Build trust by authentically sharing your story and professional expertise.

3. Confusion Between Pastoral and Clinical Counseling (14:38)

   • Pastors often lack clinical counseling training and may not distinguish their role from licensed therapists.
   • Approach: Educate pastors on the scope and limits of each approach without condescension.

     "Prayer can change things, but it can’t change everything all the time." – Whitney (15:58)

4. Not Believing in Counseling Outside the Church (17:08)

   • Some churches/pastors insist on keeping everything internal and resist outside referrals, especially in certain regions like the Bible Belt.
   • Recommendation: Don’t invest too much time where referral relationships are not wanted; focus elsewhere.

5. Failure to Maintain Relationships (18:12)

   • Initial contact is not enough; consistent follow-ups and gratitude for referrals are crucial.
   • Tip: Schedule periodic check-ins; thank referrers even if they don’t respond—it keeps your name top of mind.

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Navigating Referral and Dual Relationships

• Communication with Pastors:

  • Obtain releases before sharing any progress; only share information that benefits client care and honors confidentiality. Some pastors want to be highly involved; set boundaries as needed. (19:08)

• Creative Partnerships:

  • Examples include offering classes or seminars at churches, creating packages with discounted counseling rates, and structuring church partnerships for ongoing support and revenue. (20:22, 23:03)

  "We did a class and a date night for families… it was a really creative way to hit communication. When a pastor is saying to me, I don’t know how to help couples that are having a hard time communicating." – Whitney (21:47)

• Handling Dual Relationships:

  • Assess the size of the congregation; set clear boundaries for friends/congregants seen for therapy. Use group practice structures to avoid conflicts when possible. (23:54)

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Practical Marketing & Networking Tips

• Be Confident and Proactive:
  Set up meetings with pastors via personal connections (your own church, mutual acquaintances). Listen first, share your journey, and address their pain points.
• Value-Added Offerings:
  Host groups, provide talks/trainings, find creative ways to serve church communities and leadership.
• Systematize Boundaries:
  Clearly state boundaries and roles in your paperwork and at intake to avoid difficulties down the line.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Building Trust:

  "They [pastors] don’t know what you’re gonna be telling them instead. So…share your story…that sense of trust." – Whitney (12:58)

• On Respecting Resistance:

  "Don’t keep pushing, don’t keep knocking. Let that go and invest your time into the people that are going to benefit from you." – Whitney (09:03)

• On the Value of Relationship Maintenance:

  "You’re just letting that slide. So I suggest…put it on your calendar, get your assistant, whoever, to do it so that you’re making that consistent relationship." – Whitney (17:55)

• On Marketing Mindset:

  "It really is all about client care, right? It’s setting the boundaries and the structure and it’s just in support of our clients." – Kate (25:49)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:41 – Whitney’s faith journey and career background
• 05:09 – Defining faith-based counseling and branding challenges
• 06:50 – Tailoring marketing to audience
• 07:19 – Building relationships with pastors and their pain points
• 09:38 – Pitfall #1: Not knowing each other
• 12:56 – Pitfall #2: Lack of trust between pastors and counselors
• 14:38 – Pitfall #3: Pastoral vs. clinical counseling
• 17:08 – Pitfall #4: In-house only counseling preference
• 18:12 – Pitfall #5: Neglecting ongoing relationships
• 19:08 – Confidentiality and communication with pastors
• 20:22 – Approaching and partnering with churches
• 21:47 – Creative programming in partnership with a church
• 23:54 – Managing dual relationships in your own church
• 25:49 – Systematizing boundaries and paperwork

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Additional Resources

Whitney offers a downloadable cheat sheet summarizing these main points and practical tips for faith-based clinicians, available in the show notes.

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Summary Prepared For:
Listeners seeking concrete strategies for building strong, ethical, and mutually beneficial relationships between private practice counselors and church communities. This actionable episode is especially valuable for faith-based practitioners or those interested in niching into this domain.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Private Practice Startup podcast where we help ambitious private practitioners across the globe to brand themselves and grow their dream practices. We chat with successful private practitioners, business coaches and marketing experts bringing you tons of practice building Ninja tips. Visit privatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, attorney approved private practice paperwork and our signature marketing E course. Here are your co hosts, Dr. Kate Campbell and Katie Lemieux. Hey Startup Nation. Welcome. Welcome back to another episode of the Private Practice Startup. We are really glad that you guys are here joining us for our podcast. So today we have a very niche based topic which you know I love when you get into the niche based topics because it's important. So today joining us is Whitney Owens, lpc and she's going to be talking to us about the five pitfalls between counselors and churches. So if you are a faith based therapist or you're looking to niche and faith based, this is going to be a perfect podcast for you. But before we get started, we hope you guys joined us last week for Joe and you know Kate and I love when we step away from the business talk and talk about some real life things that do come up while you are in business. So Joe shared with us and you guys what to do if you're a therapist and you're dealing with a chronic illness.

[B]

So you're definitely going to want to.

[A]

Check out that podcast for sure. But before we do that, if you are joining us for the first time, we wanted to welcome you to our Startup Nation family and we really appreciate that you take the time and spend it with us. And for that we have a free gift for you that is our A Z cheat sheet essentials for building and growing your dream practice. Just head over to PrivatePracticesStartup.com, look for the resources tab. There's tons of stuff there but you want to grab the A to Z cheat sheet, the essentials for building and growing your dream practice. And that also comes with five days of practice building emails to really support you along your private practice journey. So just a little bit about Whitney. Whitney is a licensed professional counselor and private practice consultant. She lives in Savannah, Georgia. One of the best food places, I have to say. Sorry, I just had to throw that in there. Where she owns a group private practice, Water's Edge Counseling. In addition to running her practice, she offers individual and group consulting through practice of the practice. Whitney places a special emphasis on helping clinicians start and grow faith based practices. So please join me in welcoming Whitney. Hey, how are ya?

[C]

Doing great. Glad to be Here with you guys.

[A]

We are glad to have you. I had to throw that foodie thing in there about Savannah because it is funny. I am very snobby when it comes to food. When I went to Savannah, I loved everything that I ate. So if you are a foodie, go visit Savannah.

[C]

Yes. It is wonderful. And I love being on a podcast with ladies from the South. That's nice.

[A]

Well, you sound way more Southern than we do.

[B]

You know, my Southern accent might make an appearance, y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

That's right. People usually have that happen when they're around me for long enough.

[B]

You know, it's funny. Katie talks about the foodie scene in Savannah, and as you guys know, I'm pregnant. I'm towards the end of my pregnancy, and we just had our baby moon last month, and we were debating whether to go to Charleston or Savannah, and we decided to go to Charleston this time. But Savannah is on my list because it's a foodie town, and I definitely want to check it out.

[C]

Yes. Reach out. I'll give you some recommendations.

[B]

I will. I will definitely do that. Thank you.

[A]

I told Kate she should have gone to Savannah because I know she's a foodie and she would love everything. So next time. Next time, that'll happen.

[B]

Charleston was awesome. I loved it. And we will definitely hit up Savannah too.

[A]

So let's dive into your practice. How did you become interested in really working with the faith based. Well, really creating a private practice that's faith based.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So faith has always been a big part of my life. Grew up in the south, going to church. It's kind of a culture, but it also became part of making my personal decisions. My decisions and where I went to college about marriage, all those types of things. Right. So faith's always been a big part of what I do, and it was a big part of me deciding to be a therapist. In the early days, I thought, oh, I'm gonna be a therapist. I'm gonna help everybody know Jesus. It's gonna be awesome. And then I really got, like, hit upside the head in grad school. Like, that's about. And what am I doing? So anyway, so that was a big part of deciding grad school. Went to a grad school that had a faith based components. We actually took all the clinical courses alongside of five faith based classes. So it was really cool because a lot of clients, faith based or not, practices, clients are coming in with spiritual stuff. Right. And so being able to get that under my belt was really great. And so went to Colorado for a Time started a practice out there and then came here to Savannah and started my practice here. So faith is kind of a part of what I bring to clients, if that's what they want. And so that's kind of how that got started.

[A]

Very cool. And what school did you go to that had the faith based component?

[C]

Yeah, it's called Richmond Graduate University. There's also a campus, Chattanooga in Atlanta.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Chattanooga, Tennessee.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Oh, I got a friend. I got a friend from there. That's why I know Chattanooga. Very cool. So I'm just curious as to what are some of the difficulties that therapists face and really building faith based practice.

[C]

Yeah, I think one of the big ones is how to describe themselves. Like people ask me all the time what does it mean to be a Christian counselor? And I think they make it really complicated. I think being a Christian counselor just means you're a counselor and you're also a Christian. And let's just put those together. Now, even though I'm a Christian counselor, I don't run around town waving a flag. I'm a Christian counselor. If you're a Christian, come see me. Because that's not really what it's about either being able to cater to Christians and non Christians or any kind of faith based. Honestly, my practice, so that's one of the big ones, is people are like, how do I talk about what I do from a faith based perspective? So being able to find a way to describe yourself, thinking about what you feel about your own faith and how do you want others to perceive you, especially in your branding and your marketing, I think is one of the biggest challenges up front.

[A]

Yeah, and you're right. I know that before we hit record, we were kind of talking a little bit about this topic and the difficulty of describing that and what people are looking for. So you know, when people are calling, you know, what is the client's perception of a Christian counselor, faith based counselor, and what are they asking for?

[C]

Oh, I think that really varies based on the client. I mean, we will have clients call and they will make it very clear, I want a Christian counselor and I want them to make that a part of what they do in counseling. And so when they're calling our center, we're making sure that we're assigning them to someone who offers that faith based perspective. But our my practice, actually, even though we have Christian basis for some of the stuff we do, we don't overtly talk about that. No one that comes to our practice would know that's what we are based on our website, but I do market myself that way when I'm talking to churches and pastors and being able to encourage people to come.

[A]

I'd like that you say that because Kate and I are a little bit bonkers about marketing. A lot of it bonkers. And it really, your marketing really depends on who you're talking to. So I love that you kind of just like see slipped that in there, right? Because you're really trying to market to the people, you know, that you're trying to draw in and what's important to them. So I'm just curious, when you do market to the, you know, the churches and stuff like that, what is it that you share and what do you highlight and what are some of like the pastors and stuff, like their pain points? Like why would they refer to you guys?

[C]

Yes. All good questions. And y' all talk about this too. It's all about relationships, right? It's not about passing out cards, brochures. And it's so like that in the ministry world, like it's all about relationships. And we're already so good at that as kids. Counselors. So when we're reaching out for the first time, I'm saying, hey, can I take you to coffee or lunch? Let's chat. Because that gives us a significant amount of time to really get to know one another. And during that time, I say to pastors, before I'm talking about myself saying, tell me about your church. What are some of the difficulties that are coming in? And that can really vary based on churches. But of course we see a lot of divorce, a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression that are coming into pastors offices. And I always encourage pastors, if you're having to meet with someone more than twice, you need to be referring them out. You've got plenty of other things that you need to be doing other than doing counseling in your office. So yeah, that's a little bit of some of the pains that they're experiencing is it's very time consuming and they don't have the clinical knowledge, they have the pastoral knowledge. And those are two totally different things.

[A]

Yeah. I find Kate and I both specialize in working with couples and I've definitely gotten calls from couples who have tried to go like a faith based route and for a fair recovery sometimes. And that can be really difficult. So, you know, honoring both kind of sides, but they see that they're looking for something else. And it's interesting. I had talked to someone who's also a pastor before and A friend and a colleague. And it sounds very interesting. And really navigating around the churches and stuff like that and really being able to be of service. And I love the way that you just kind of came out and said, look, you know, if you're seeing them more than twice, you got more time, you have more things to do with your time, like you need to be referring out. And I just love how you're just clear and direct about that. And they probably say, yeah, you're right. Right.

[C]

Most of the time. So you obvious, honestly, you do run into churches sometimes that they don't want to refer out. These are our people and we want to keep them here. And so when that happens, I say to counselors, like, don't keep pushing, don't keep knocking. Like, let that go and invest your time into the people that are going to benefit from you. Yeah.

[A]

And sometimes we talk. And I agree with you. And sometimes we talk about like the back door.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Is that maybe you do have someone from that church find you for whatever reason, and obviously then you're building a relationship. You find out where they go and they're happy with your services. And then. And then things kind of come in that way. But yeah, I totally agree with you. So share with us more about the five pitfalls.

[C]

Yeah. So came up here with five pitfalls between counselors and churches. So what's making it difficult for us to connect and market with one another? The first one is just not knowing each other. So we sometimes don't know the churches, even in our own community as counselors. And so taking the time to research what are especially new ones that are popping up because they're going to need somewhere to refer people. But you getting to know your area, especially churches near your office and reaching out to those. But also pastors don't know who you are. And all the time pastors will ask me, I don't know who to refer to. You know, it's just amazing that they don't have anyone, they don't have a list or anything going there. So you need to make sure they know about you.

[A]

And that even sounds like a helpful resource. Right? Like putting yourself on the list and other trusted colleagues and a way to really build a connection with. With your colleagues, but also pastors, because it's offering them something of service.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. A girlfriend of mine was wanting some counseling for herself because she was dealing with her husband and his abuse problem. And she was like, but I want to find a Christian and I don't know where to go I'm like, wow, like, you've been in this community for 10 years and you don't even know a Christian counselor to go to. Like, that's a shame, you know? And so she, she actually went to her pastor, you know, and he got her referrals.

[B]

But yeah, yeah. And that's one of the amazing things that happens when you're clear on your niche, you're clear on who you serve, and you have a really good marketing approach in terms of whether it's the relationship building like you're talking about with the community or the online. It's all about making yourself known and findable so that people know about you. Because there's so many clients who are out there right now needing your services, but they don't know how to find you. They don't know where you are. And that's why it's so very important. I love how you talk about that. And before we get into your second tip, let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsor.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Winnie.

[C]

Yeah, so the second one here is pastors and counselors not trusting one another. So it's so important that you build that relationship so they know they can trust referring clients to you. They don't know what you're going to be telling them instead. So they will ask you questions in that lunch meeting like, well, how do you describe your faith and what does that mean to you? And being able to kind of share your story with them will develop that sense of trust. But then you want to hear from them because you want to know that you can trust that when you all talk to each other about clients and when they're referring people that y' all can work alongside each other.

[A]

Yeah. And do you find that pastors will refer even if you're not a faith based counselor or is very much they really looking to refer to faith based?

[C]

Yeah, I think so much of that depends on the church. There are some super conservative ones out there that all they care about is you got to have a Christian counselor to be a counselor, you know, And I don't think that way. I mean, I think all counselors can do good work regardless of their faith, but that some clients are wanting that. So I think some more liberal type churches probably are just looking for good clinical counselors regardless of faith.

[A]

Gotcha. And I know usually like, you know, clergy is usually like the point of contact, but are there other points of contact that people go to when they're searching for counseling through their church or is it usually.

[C]

Yeah, I think usually it's probably the head pastor of a small church. But some of these mega churches, they'll have someone just in charge of like member care or they might go to a small group leader. So I do think they can go to other people, like a children's pastor if you have a couple, you know, because that's the person they're close to. Their children are going to the nursery or to the children's services on a regular basis. So that couple feels like they know that person better. So you tell them.

[A]

Yeah, gotcha. So share with us another pitfall.

[C]

Yep. So the third one here is they don't know the difference between pastoral counseling and clinical counseling. You know, and when a pastor goes to seminary, typically they get one class in pastoral counseling, not even clinical counseling. And so they don't really use clinical skills. They don't really know how to do CBT or anything like that. And so when, when I meet with counsel, meet with pastors, I don't necessarily throw it on them like that, hey, you don't know what you're doing. But I'm more saying, hey, here are the skills that I learned and here's how I would Use them with the type of client that you're saying is hurting in your congregation and trying to share with them that difference there?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm curious, from your experience. So in a. In a pastor's mind, right? Like, so someone's coming to him or her or is pastor's always him?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

What is that?

[C]

It depends on denomination. It can't be a woman.

[A]

All right, good. I just didn't want to be, like, gender biased. As I'm, like, talking and I'm like, I don't know if I have ever known a woman pastor. So just out of curiosity, so for pastors, when people do come to them with their issues that we would see more clinical, do you find that pastors believe that they can kind of help and work with them through pastoral counseling, or are they like, oh, gosh, this is totally out of my scope. What is your sense about that?

[C]

It's both just to make it confusing, Right? I mean, I think that there are definitely some pastors that are very insightful that will say, no, this is beyond my scope. And then there are some that think that they can just do their own thing or they think the Bible is going to answer all their questions or concerns. And honestly, if we're looking at strong clinical situations, that's just not going to happen. You know, prayer can change things, but it can't change everything all the time. So it's educating them on what's appropriate and what's not.

[A]

And so how do you do that with a pastor who might be a little unsure or resistant to people? Skeptical. That's a better word.

[C]

Yeah. And like I said before, you have to be super careful, because if they're too skeptical or they seem like they only want to stay in house, like, don't waste your time. But if it's someone who's unsure, I kind of, kind of do start with that. Hey, if you're spending a lot of time with this person, maybe this isn't the place you need to be. You know that you need to be focusing on all the things the pastor has to do, like prepping sermons, doing funerals, weddings, all those things, instead of focusing on client care. Like, this is what I'm trained in and kind of explaining the difference in training.

[A]

Mm, nice. So share with us another one.

[C]

Yeah, so the fourth one, which we actually kind of already hit a little bit, was not believing in counseling outside of the church. And I see that especially down here in the Bible Belt, there's some churches that are like that, and the pastors want to keep everything in house. So I would just say that's a problem and not to use your time on those and use your time on other places that are gonna refer. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And the fifth one here is not maintaining relationship. And so I think we get. And you know all about this with marketing. Like, you get that first relationship, and you forget about them. You don't follow up with them. They send somebody, and maybe you don't get the roi. You're not calling the pastor, thanking them for the referral, and so you're just letting that slide. So I suggest that you make a note to follow up with people. It could be every three months, every six months. Put it on your calendar, get your assistant, whoever, to do it so that you're making that consistent relationship. Try to get out there to different meetings that are going on. Maybe there's a meeting of different people in town that you could attend where, you know, pastors are going to be there or other church members. They see your face, they're remembering you. That goes so far.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, as you're talking, I was kind of thinking, you know, when I used to work with teens, I had this private school that would refer to me a lot, and part of their policies where if a kid got caught with, you know, drugs on him or her, you know, that they had to have some counseling. And they always wanted some type of report from me. So I already knew that, and I just did it.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Release of information. They would get the report, but I would. I would always follow up. And I think them for the referral, always follow up, ask if they had any questions. The interesting thing is they never really contacted me. They never, like, responded. But I kept getting the referral. And so I didn't ever stop doing that because I knew, like, hey, I'm serving them. So when a pastor is referring to a therapist, like, you're saying that relationship is so important, but is there anything that they're, like, wanting to know or that's important? Is it just, you know, hey, the person that I referred to you is doing well. Like, what are they wanting to know? Looking for?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think what I typically do is get the release if the client's comfortable. There are definitely gonna be some clients that don't want to sign that release. What's also so helpful is the pastor knows the family, so they can tell you all this backstory on the parents or on the siblings or, hey, this family's been in my church for 30 years, and you're oh, that happened. Okay. You know, the client probably wouldn't have told me that for a while. So it's good that we're sensitive to that. I think some pastors want to be totally involved. They want to know what's going on in the counseling. But obviously as therapists, we're not going to tell them everything going on. Right. We're just going to say the things that seem the most helpful. But there are some pastors that just want to know their, their people are getting help and that they're safe, you know, and probably want to know when they're done with their therapy and that they did well, you know. But honestly, those pastors are probably going to ask the clients when they see them how is that therapy going? And then they're going to be talking about how awesome you are.

[A]

Right. And that is always the best way to get a referral for sure. The free marketing raving fans. We always talk about that. So important.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting. So we really appreciate you sharing this information. Any other like thoughts about navigating the system as a clinician or other things that are really important if you're niching in a faith based practice?

[C]

Yeah, you know, I get a lot of questions. How do I actually talk to a pastor? So it's like you set up this meeting, first of all, how do I set up the meeting? And then when I actually meet with them, what am I actually going to do and say? And so first comment on that is to be confident. Like don't be shy about who you are and what you have to offer and set up those meetings. Try to set them up through personal relationships, maybe a friend that goes to a church or your own church or you know, a pastor who knows another pastor. So set those up and when you meet with them, like I said, just listen to where they're at, hear their pain and then share a little bit about your faith journey, your clinical journey. But I encourage you to find ways to be creative in meeting their pain. So it's not. You can do a lot more than individual therapy, especially if you're partnering with a church. There are so many creative ways to partner with churches. So you could offer seminars or classes or different things like that. Like one of the, I thought most creative things we've done as a practice that was really successful was at my own church. So the months of January, February, March and April. On a Saturday night each month we did a class and a date night for families. So from 4:30 to 6 they attended a course taught by one of our therapists and then from 6 to 8, the families left their children the whole time and they were able to go on a date. And it was. They fed the kids pizza, put a big screen movie on, and the kids loved it. And so we were able to. Like the last time we did one, we did on communication and communication between couples with children, different ways we communicate based on gender. So it was a really creative way to hit communication. When a pastor is saying to me, I don't know how to help couples that are having a hard time communicating.

[A]

Mm, very cool. And was that something that was like a free of service or was that like a small fee?

[C]

Actually, we did get paid for that. It was nice. But I mean, I don't always get paid for all the stuff. I do like that because some of it's about getting your name in there and for the people that are attending to see you.

[A]

Right. And really engage with you, you're building value. I mean, there's so many ways to build value. And that's exactly what, you know, marketing is all about, is really creating value and building building value for the clients, the stakeholders, and things like that. And I'm sure that the pastor felt a little bit more relieved. Did the pastor actually attend some of those?

[C]

Yeah, him and his wife did. Oh, I love it.

[A]

Oh, even better. How great. And what did he say about his communication after attending?

[C]

That's funny. He's a quiet man. So he didn't really say all that much, but he just sits there and nods and smiles and so, you know, you're doing good. Yeah.

[A]

The people that don't give you much, that you don't know what's going on, they're the most difficult. But then all of a sudden, like, you'll get the referral or something like that. You're like, okay, it did go well.

[C]

That's right. That's right. Another creative thing we did as a practice at the very beginning was church partnerships. And you probably see this with other organizations is the church would pay a certain amount per month and they had packages they could purchase. So it's like a low package would be you get 25% off of anyone you refer, and they pay us like a hundred dollars a month for a year. So that way we're getting their referrals, but then we're also helping the church. We had other packages where you get like a training and the percentage off, or you get a retreat, two trainings, a percent off, and then you're paying US$500 a month. And it was really nice if you could get two or three churches doing that, there's your rent and expenses covered immediately. And you're getting your name out there.

[A]

Nice. You know, I'm sure, Whitney, a lot of people listening to this podcast might be wondering, like, how do you navigate the dual relationships? Like you had mentioned, we did this at my church. Right. So how do you navigate the dual relationships?

[C]

Good question. Yeah, I get that one a lot. I think sometimes you got to first consider the size of your church. So if you've got a really teeny church, don't see anyone at your church. If you got a medium sized church. And when I say medium, I'm thinking like 300 to 1,000 people. You know, you can consider seeing some people at your church. If it's like a jumbo church, then, or a mega church. Jumbo. If it's a megachurch, you probably aren't going to be seeing those people on a regular basis. So, like, even in my church, I've definitely seen some of the people that attend, but I make sure it's someone that I would not see unless I randomly bumped into them at a Sunday service. Like, they're not someone that would be at a class with me. They're not someone whose kids are the same ages as my kids. We're not in a similar phase of life. And then if they are in a similar phase of life or any of those things, I refer to one of the other therapists at the group practice. That's one of the bonuses of a group practice.

[A]

Yeah. Do you have a conversation with your clients at intake about, you know, attending the same church and what do you say?

[C]

Yeah, well, fortunately, now I have assistants that do all that for me, so they take those intake calls. So sometimes I don't even know it's happened until the person's in the door. But if it's someone in advance that I'm friends with, we do have a discussion about boundaries. Hey, you're gonna be seeing this counselor. But I don't want to hear anything going on in your therapy unless you have an emergency. And most people have been pretty good about maintaining that boundary. And the thing is, like, I have good counselors at my practice, and if my friend needs counseling, I want them to see someone that I believe in. And I'm only gonna hire the people that I believe in. And so I'm happy for them to come.

[A]

Yeah, you know, Kate and I are very big on systems and really having all that down and part of your paperwork, because it's really a relationship and you know, we always find the more that you can do up front, the less problems you definitely have. So being able to have those discussions and of course, I mean, things happen and then you create new policies and procedures because that thing happened. Right. And it just gives you more information and really support your clients. And it's, it really is all about client care, right? It's setting the boundaries and the structure and it's just in support of our clients.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Well, we really appreciate you being here and I know that you actually have a giveaway for our audience which is kind of like a cheat sheet, a brochure of everything that we've talked about today and we will go ahead and put the link for that on the Show Notes page. So if you really liked what Whitney shared and you just want a quick reference, just go to the Show Notes page and you can grab it from there. Startup Nation we wanted to say thanks so much for joining us today. We hope you guys join us next week and next week we have Susan Block with us and we're going to be talking about the do's and don'ts for a successful private practice. So you definitely want to make sure you join us for that.

[B]

And let's take a quick moment to hear from our Startup Nation superhero shout out for today's episode. This comes from Julie. Julie says love, love, love the podcast. Kate and Katie's energy is infectious. They have great topics and guests. The info is always relevant and present and bite sized, actionable pieces. Thank you so much Julie for your feedback. We love to hear that and we hope we continue to inspire you along your practice journey. And for those of you listening, we love to hear your feedback, to know that we're providing content that is valuable for you that is on point. So if there's a topic that we have not talked about yet, definitely let us know. If there's something that you're craving or if there was an episode that you did love, we'd love to hear that too. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review our show and of course share with your friends and colleagues.

[A]

Startomation. Thanks for allowing us to inspire you from Startup to Mastery. Have an awesome and inspired day. Take care everybody.

[B]

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

[C]

Sam.