Episode 200: Anti-Racism & Therapy - Things Your BIPOC Client Might Want You to Know

Summary

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Episode Summary: Anti-Racism & Therapy – Things Your BIPOC Client Might Want You to Know

Private Practice Startup Podcast, Episode 200
Hosts: Dr. Kate Campbell & Katie Lemieux
Guest: Elizabeth McCorvey, LCSW
Release Date: July 11, 2020

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Overview

In this significant milestone episode, hosts Kate and Katie welcome psychotherapist and anti-racism trainer Elizabeth McCorvey to discuss “Anti-Racism & Therapy – Things Your BIPOC Client Might Want You to Know.” The conversation centers on the lack of anti-racism training in mental health education, practical steps therapists can take to better support BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) clients, and the internal and external work necessary for truly inclusive and responsive therapy. Elizabeth offers grounded advice rooted in her experience as both clinician and client, challenging white clinicians to move through discomfort, do their own work, and improve their cultural competence—while providing actionable tips and honest reflections on the challenges and opportunities of anti-racist practice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Elizabeth’s Journey and Motivation (02:30–04:08)

• Elizabeth describes her dual focus: working with clients, including equine-assisted psychotherapy, and leading anti-racism trainings for therapists.
• She shares the realization in grad school that education about race, racism, and minority experiences is “really, really, really inadequate,” pushing her to fill in the gaps and support both clients and fellow therapists.

2. The Importance of Therapists Doing Their Own Anti-Racism Work (05:45–08:23)

• Point #1: Clinicians must do their own work around white supremacy, racism, and anti-racism—well before it comes up with a client.
• “If you can say, ‘Are you thinking about killing yourself?’ you can say, ‘Do you think that what happened to you might have been motivated by race?’” (Elizabeth, 07:03)
• Therapists should not use clients as “guinea pigs” for their first conversations about race; instead, practice with peers and community first.

Suggested Resources (08:23–13:12)

• Books:
  • My Grandmother’s Hands by Resmaa Menakem (Somatic approaches to trauma and white supremacy)
  • White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo (Understanding white responses to racial stress)
• Film: 13th (Netflix documentary on the prison system and systemic racism)
• Podcasts: 2 Dope Queens (Media by Black creators on everyday life, not always focused on struggle)
• General Advice: “Also…take in media from people of color that is not always focused on our struggle all the time. Because we’re also just like regular people living in the world.” (Elizabeth, 09:48)

3. Addressing White Fragility and Systemic Racism (11:07–12:33)

• Acknowledgement that everyone is socialized within racist systems. Being anti-racist is an ongoing journey, not a fixed identity.
• “It’s not a question of good or bad…If you, you are. You say a racist thing, you do a racist thing. It’s not a question of good or bad, because we’re all in the system and sometimes these things happen without our knowledge…” (Elizabeth, 11:28)
• Referenced How to Be an Anti-Racist by Ibram X. Kendi

4. The Imperative of Repair When Mistakes Occur (15:12–17:47)

• Point #2: All therapists will make mistakes, including microaggressions and missteps.
• The two most important responses: “Thank you” and “I’m sorry.” Elaborate explanations and reassurances shift the burden onto the client (16:33).
• “When your client corrects you, it’s a gift. They’re giving you a gift that they did not have to give you and receive that gift gracefully.” (Elizabeth, quoting her co-facilitator, 17:03)
• “Racism is not about intent…It’s about impact and how it impacted me and how it felt to me.” (Elizabeth, 17:24)

5. Developing Stamina for Discomfort and Growth (20:12–21:03)

• Therapists should recognize their emotional responses, especially when hearing anger or pain not presented in a “palatable” way, as growth edges to notice in their own bodies.
• “If there are messages you’re not hearing because they’re not being conveyed in a way that is palatable for you, learn where that lives in your body because that’s a growing edge.” (Elizabeth, 21:03)

6. Redefining “Healing” in the Context of Racism (21:08–25:24)

• Point #3: Therapists should reconsider what “healing” means for clients with ongoing exposure to racism. Modalities should focus on grounding and resiliency rather than promising to “heal” racism itself.
• “You can’t heal white supremacy. You can’t heal racism, and you can’t. And it’s not appropriate to dull my reactivity necessarily to racist experiences… I need floating devices.” (Elizabeth, 24:07)
• Healing should be client-defined; therapists should clarify what healing means to their clients and use language accordingly.

7. Building Individualized “Toolboxes” and Scripts for Difficult Conversations (25:48–28:48)

• Therapists are encouraged to develop their own scripts and support structures for before, during, and after challenging discussions, including practicing with colleagues, developing capacity for silence, and seeking supportive supervision.
• Acknowledge potential pushback: Not all BIPOC clients or professionals agree that clinicians should broach race unless the client initiates the conversation.

8. Practical Language to Use in Session (28:48–31:09)

• Shared example from Elizabeth’s guide: “I feel awkward bringing this up. I know I’m not going to do the best job, but I don’t want to pretend that this isn’t happening right now.”
• Personal story: Even as a Black client, Elizabeth sometimes struggles to bring up race, and appreciates her white therapist asking—“I like, fall through the door. Because I’m like, thank you. Thank you. I wanted to talk about it, but…” (Elizabeth, 30:25)

9. Systemic Conditioning and Client-Therapist Dynamics (32:18–33:05)

• BIPOC clients are often conditioned to “take care of white people”—even in therapy—because it has been a survival skill for generations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On initiating conversations on race:

  • “If you can say, ‘Are you thinking about killing yourself?’ you can say, ‘Do you think that what happened to you might have been motivated by race?’” (Elizabeth, 07:03)

• On making mistakes:

  • “When your client corrects you, it’s a gift. They’re giving you a gift that they did not have to give you and receive that gift gracefully.” (Elizabeth quoting her co-facilitator, 17:03)

• On the difference between intent and impact:

  • “Racism is not about intent. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t mean to do something…It’s about impact and how it impacted me and how it felt to me.” (Elizabeth, 17:24)

• On emotional labor and systemic conditioning:

  • “We’re really conditioned to take care of white people. And I would say for me, that is a conditioning that has been pervasive for the last 400 years to take care of white people. And that does not stop with my therapist.” (Elizabeth, 32:18)

• On the therapist’s journey:

  • “It’s a journey, all of this is a journey. We’re all unlearning messages that have been really indoctrinated into us. And I’d like it if clinicians were able to stay open and curious.” (Elizabeth, 34:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Elizabeth’s Background & Motivation: 02:30–04:08
• Necessity of Clinician’s Own Anti-Racism Work: 05:45–08:23
• Resource Recommendations: 08:23–13:12
• Impact vs. Intent in Racism, White Fragility: 11:07–12:33
• Repair, Apology, & Handling Mistakes: 15:15–17:47
• Processing Discomfort / Growing Edges: 20:12–21:03
• What Does Healing Mean?: 21:11–25:24
• Developing Scripts & Handling Pushback: 25:48–28:48
• Sample Script for Sensitive Topics: 28:48–31:09
• Systemic Conditioning—Taking Care of White People: 32:18–33:05
• Main Takeaway & Upcoming Trainings: 34:01–35:50

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Additional Resources & Opportunities

• Elizabeth’s Trainings (35:09):
  • “Are You Doing it Wrong?”: Cultural competence workshop (now also online)
  • Training on addressing racial trauma in clinical sessions
  • Details: ElizabethMcCorvey.com

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Overall Takeaways

• Anti-racist work in therapy is lifelong, relational, and requires commitment both inside and outside the office.
• Clinicians must proactively educate themselves, build accountability networks, practice honest repair, and develop scripts for difficult conversations.
• Avoiding race is not neutral for BIPOC clients; silence is both felt and noted.
• The most powerful tools are humility, openness, and the willingness to “do it wrong” while remaining engaged.
• Healing is complex and must be defined by the client, not assumed as a fixed endpoint.
• Feedback from clients is a rare gift—receive it gratefully and grow.

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For more tools, guides, and information about Elizabeth’s anti-racism trainings or to access the discussed guide, visit ElizabethMcCorvey.com.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Private Practice Startup podcast where we help ambitious private practitioners across the globe to brand themselves and grow their dream practices. We chat with successful private practitioners, business coaches and marketing experts bringing you tons of practice building Ninja tips. Visit privatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, attorney approved private practice paperwork and our signature marketing E course. Here are your co hosts, Dr. Kate Campbell and Katie Lemieux.

[B]

Hey there.

[C]

Welcome back to episode of the Private Practice Startup podcast. We are really excited that you guys are here. If you are a first time guest, welcome to the Startup Nation family. We are extending our virtual hog it to you guys. We've always been doing virtual hugs because we're a podcast, but it's definitely right during COVID for sure. Today we're welcoming guest Elizabeth McCorvey and we're going to be talking about anti racism in therapy, things that your BIPOC client might want you to know. So this is a really important topic and Kate and I have been committed to bringing more of these topics to you guys so we can have these conversations, these very much needed conversations. If you missed last week's. We hope that you guys. If you missed last week's. Go back and listen as we interviewed Whitney Owens on five pitfalls between counselors and churches. So if you're a niche based therapist working in the faith based communities, you want to check that out for sure. So before we dive in, I just want to share with you guys a little bit about Elizabeth. Elizabeth is a psychotherapist living in Asheville, North Carolina. She works with clients using equine assisted psychotherapy therapy using horses and has an office where she sees clients far fewer horses. She facilitates anti racism trainings for therapists. So join me in welcoming Elizabeth. How are you?

[D]

I'm good. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[B]

We're really delighted to have you here and I just wanted to share the story about how we got introduced to you. Alison Peryear, our friend and fellow practice builder had shared an amazing resource that you had created for therapists about how to navigate anti racism with clients. And we are so delighted to have you here talking about this very important topic for Startup Nation. So thank you, Elizabeth.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, I'm excited. I'm really excited by how far the reach for that guide has been. So I'm glad y' all saw it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I've actually personally used it, so I just wanted to thank you for that.

[D]

So, so glad. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Awesome. So on one hand, so your therapeutic world is you do a lot of equine assisted psychotherapy.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And then in your more professional development world, I guess, is you're working with therapists on anti racism, how did you kind of get into both?

[D]

Yeah, that's a good question. So I live in the South. I've always lived in the South. And when I entered the therapy world as a clinician, and I think this happened for me in grad school when I sort of started to open my eyes to what the therapy world looked like in regard to its understanding of racism and colorism and bringing that awareness into sessions. And I realized that the education that we got around race and racism and minority identified individuals in general is really, really, really inadequate. And I realized that if I, as a black woman, am having trouble navigating some of those conversations or knowing how to bring them up in session because I was never taught how to do it. My white therapist counterparts were definitely struggling because I know how to. I know how to have conversations about race because I've been socialized to do it for the. My. The entirety of my life. But white folks don't have to do that because white is the quote, unquote, norm. And so. And often therapists don't think they have to do that either. So I started facilitating trainings with a colleague a couple years ago. Actually, not a couple years ago. Maybe it's just been a year ago. Time is so weird right now. It kind of took off. So I've been doing that quite a bit, especially recently after Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd and what's been happening recently.

[C]

Wow. Awesome. And, you know, as you say that, like, I can totally relate and I know Kate and I have obviously had conversations and, you know, in grad school, we were always taught, like, you know, whatever the client brings up, like, that's what's appropriate for the room. And definitely never, you know, like, gosh, I graduated back in 04 now, so, like 15, 16 years ago. And, you know, like, we talked about culture and diversity, but that was it. Like, there was no discussion about racism and no discussion about, like, even how to bring that up. So, you know, I'm really excited that we're going to dive into this topic to begin to make it, you know, more comfortable. And if you're uncomfortable anyways, like, who cares? Like, like, like, do it. And like I said, when, you know, I read your kind of, like, how to ask questions or how to bring up racism in session, like, that was really helpful and it really opened a lot of doors. So thank you for that.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. Elizabeth, I just wanted to chime in because I know you had mentioned in your resources about how to stop hesitating. And the hesitation is something I can very much relate to as well, and how to start having these conversations, because I want to say the right things and I want to know how to say the right things. And I'm sure there's a lot of other clinicians who also struggle with the same thing. And like Katie was talking about, wanting to work with what the clients are bringing to the table. And if they didn't bring it up, then maybe it wouldn't be acknowledged. However, now we're learning the importance of acknowledging race and session. And so I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say. So let's dive into the topic and share with us a little bit about how us therapists can stop hesitating and step into that space.

[D]

Yeah. So I've got probably a list of 100 things that your BIPOC client might want you to know. And let me backtrack. For those who don't know, I imagine there's some who don't. BIPOC is black, indigenous, person of color. And so I just pulled out three things that I that I'd been kind of mulling over that I really would like to drive home for clinicians. The first is that clinicians need to be doing their own work around white supremacy and racism and anti racism, because you're so right. And I learned this too, that if the client doesn't bring it into the room, you don't touch it. But at the same time, I mean, we do this all the time. Like, if your client is saying things like, I don't know if I can be here anymore. I don't know if this world is right for me. Then you say, maybe we need to bring up the discussion of self harm and suicide. Like, we know how to do this. So I feel like we don't want to push our agenda. But we're also always kind of reading the situation to see, like, maybe I need to go down this path. Maybe I need to go down this path. And if you can say, are you thinking about killing yourself? You can say, do you think that what happened to you might have been motivated by race? But because people can feel so uncomfortable talking about race, it's harder to do. So that's why I say to do your own work. That means reading, listening to podcasts. There are so many good movies on Netflix, especially, like, I just finished 13th, which blew my mind. And it talks about the prison system and how it is, how it's so biased against black folks, and how historically that's been happening over the last 400 years, that's really, really, really amazing. And now I'm down a rabbit hole of documentaries and I'm learning so much. But I say that to say the part about the clinicians doing their own work, because the first time you talk about race should not be with your client. Your client's not your guinea pig. If you're not having conversations with people in your circles, outside of your clinical circles and inside your clinical circles, then bringing it up with your client might be. You might do and say the wrong things that you're worried about saying. So if you can cultivate a circle of people that can call you in and call you out, hold you accountable, help you see your blind spots, those are all really important skills that you can bring with you into the session. So that's my first point. I've got two others, but do you have any questions, thoughts, concerns?

[C]

No, I'm just curious about some of the recommendations, like whether it be the readings or how to go about those. Some of your favorite resources?

[D]

Yeah. For therapists, I love recommending a book called My Grandmother's Hands. It's by Resma Menachem. And I love it because I feel like as a therapy world, at least where I live, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina, we're very like, woo, woo, very like. So there are a lot of therapists that focus a ton on Somatics. And that book goes into the embodied feeling of white supremacy and what it feels like for the people experiencing it, the people perpetuating it, the people that benefit, the people that are traumatized. And so I highly, highly recommend that one. White fragility is a staple for me. I just finished it myself. And it's really, it's a really down to earth way that Robin Diangelo talks about helping people understand how they show up in society as white folks and what that means for communities of color. So those are two books that I recommend. The movie, of course, 13th. I'm sure there so many good podcasts out there, but none are coming to mind. None are jumping out to me right now. But also that for some reason that made me, that made me think of there's this comedy podcast called 2 Dope Queens. I don't know if you've heard of it, it's hysterical. But I also encourage people to take in media from people of color that is not always, that's not focused on our struggle all the time. Because we're also just like regular people living in the world. And so. And these, the two women, they're black women on the podcast. And they talk so casually about being black women. And I think that that's important for white audiences to take in too. White audience and non black audiences.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Kate and I had watched the video, Robin d' Angelo's video on white fragility, and it was really helpful because it also kind of gave like the. To me, like the therapeutic, systemic perspective. And I know I shared this on the last podcast, like, for me, totally experienced white fragility and being able to kind of separate the me and making it personal and going, okay, so, like, this is a system that we're all born into various systems, whether it be a religious system, a race system, a class system, and we don't even see that we're in the system. And so being able to step back and say, wow, like, okay, I can see how I stepped into the system unknowingly. Now I can take a step back, not make it so personal.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And now I can be much more of a change agent and take action and do what I need to do and be helpful. And so that I really. That was super helpful. And she kind of like called out all of the things and all the experiences.

[D]

So.

[C]

And I say that for audience members who are white that haven't listened to that or read that book yet, like, definite, that was really helpful.

[D]

Yeah. I like how she talks about how it's not a question of goodness or badness. It's not that if you, you are. You say a racist thing, you do a racist thing. It's not a question of good or bad, because we're all in the system and sometimes these things happen without our knowledge because this is something we're not even aware of, the water that we're swimming in. And I think Ibram Kendi, who wrote how to Be an Anti Racist, speaks to this really, really powerfully. Because he talks about the position of being anti racist does not demand that you are not a racist person. In fact, it talks about the journey of becoming antiracist. And that and it being just that, a journey. You're not claiming that you have walked in everybody's shoes or that you are 100% non racist, which is not possible, by the way. It's saying, I am. I oppose racism anywhere I see it, and that's a journey for me. And I oppose it in myself when I see it and I can acknowledge it. And there it is. And it doesn't make me bad. It means that I'm on a journey.

[B]

Mm.

[C]

I love that.

[B]

It's amazing. Yeah, it is beautiful and it is so. It's just been an amazing experience. And Katie and I, as business owners and as leaders of the private practice community, as people, as partners, as family members, we've been on our own journeys and really listening and learning and consuming a lot of information and the resources that you're sharing are just so, so helpful. So thank you for that. The Robin DiAngelo YouTube video, I think it was about an hour and a half that, that we watched was just so eye opening and I look forward to continuing to dive in further to some of the resources that you've just shared as well.

[D]

Yeah. And Robin on her website has a list of resources that that people can engage in for free and it's great.

[C]

Awesome. So before we go to the next talking point, I just want to take a quick break for our sponsor. Would you love to work with an.

[E]

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[B]

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[C]

Talking point number two.

[D]

Sure. So when I do trainings with therapists on examining their cultural competency, one of the most important things we talk about is repair. Because the awareness that you're going to make a mistake, it's going to happen. There's no avoiding it. And if your client calls you in or out on it, which they may not, but if that happens and they share with you that you've committed some kind of error or microaggression or you've harmed them in some way, I coach people on saying just two things, which are thank you and I'm sorry, and that's it. That's all you have to say. You can. There's of course space to go into processing what that looks like. But you have to be careful with that because sometimes it may be interpreted like if you say, oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean that, that's not what I meant. I hope you know I didn't. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then your client ends up taking care of you and that's not fair. So learn where it feels, where that shame feels in your body and sit with it and own it and say, thank you for telling me. I'm sorry. Internalize it and then take all of your feelings to your therapist or your peer group or your anti racist supervisor and move on.

[B]

That's such good advice because the natural reaction is to want to go into explaining or defending. Right. And that we know from Gottman's research that if you're in that defensive place, it's the opposite of taking responsibility. So what you're saying is don't go into explaining, don't go into any of that. Just thank them for the feedback and apologize and that's it. Take responsibility, apologize and process elsewhere.

[D]

Yeah. My co facilitator, I do a training, I've co facilitated training called are you doing it wrong? And my co facilitator, Katie always says, and I love this, that when your client corrects you, it's a gift. They're giving you a gift that they did not have to give you and receive that gift gracefully.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[D]

Because racism is not about intent. It doesn't matter that you didn't mean to do something. It doesn't matter that it does not matter that you think it's important that I think you're a good person. Racism is about impact and how it impacted me and how it felt to me.

[B]

Yes. Not about intent, it's about impact. I've heard that in a few places. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. So I lean on. I lean on that all the time, and I make mistakes. I mean, I'm a black woman, and I'm living in a society that is steeped in white supremacy. So I've had to navigate my own internalized racism and the ways that I show up with other communities of people of color. And I've made mistakes, and so nobody's exempt from it. And it's a lesson, certainly, in humility, but also in developing your ability to navigate discomfort. Because if you can admit that you're wrong and thank people for the corrections, then you're kind of unstoppable.

[C]

I like that. I really love, like. Like, you bring this, like, positive. Very, like, neutral, in a sense, like, not good or bad. Right. And it's just. This is. There's a place where it's just like, okay, this is going to happen. You know, it doesn't mean anything about you. This is how you go about it. You know, honor, thank, acknowledge. So I just appreciate that because I think a lot of talking about racism, especially for. I know that Kate and I, there's been many blind spots.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And all that emotional stuff in the background, but listening to Robin d', Angelo, listening to you, it's just really helpful.

[B]

To have that space, because I feel.

[C]

Like when we have that space and the emotionality isn't there, then we definitely can do better and take better actions and really, then have that space. Like you said, like Katie says is there's like, that gift of receiving.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And when I'm not so emotional in my own stuff, I can really hear you. But if I'm emotional in my own stuff, then I just can't because I'm either defending myself in my head, you know, like, gotten in and all that other stuff. Right. So I just. I really appreciate how you talk about this.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I was just gonna say. Yes. A lot of what you're talking about is echoing some of the things we've been learning. We just finished a training with Trudy LeBron, and I think I'm pronouncing her name correctly. And it was so helpful because she also was talking about the difference between intention and impact, and the intention doesn't really matter, and the importance of not going into defending or over explaining just. And I love how you just shared about feedback being a gift, because it really is. And to be able to handle that with grace and to be grateful for that is. Yeah, it's. It's a really, really important.

[D]

Yeah. And I think that, well, I'm able to present information in this way because I've done a lot of work, I'm familiar with these conversations and sometimes I'm really angry and I don't share things in this way. And it's important, I think, for people to. If I'm sharing things in a way that is, that feels harmful or hurtful or angry or upset, I have every right to be angry and upset. And I need people to, therapists especially, to get in their body, understand where that feels for them. Because there's unlearning. White supremacy is deep, deep, deep, deep work. And if there are messages that you're not hearing because they're not being conveyed in a way that is palpable, palatable for you, learn where that lives in your body because that's a growing edge.

[C]

Thank you for that as well.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

Go ahead.

[C]

Yeah, no, I was going to say let's dive into the third one.

[D]

The third one that I pulled out is just. It's kind of a question that I want people to consider with their bipoc clients. And that me as a, as someone's bipoc client, I want my therapist to be thinking about is what is healing? What does healing mean? Because you're not going to heal racism. So if I come to therapy and I've had a experience of someone who has thrown some racist stuff at me and I'm feeling that I might not need like, ifs might not help me and EMDR might not help me, or it might ground me in that moment. But when I walk out the door and then I'm experiencing racism within seconds of leaving the building because of where I've parked or where I'm driving, or if I get pulled over, if I go eat at a restaurant and I'm not acknowledged, or then it's re triggered all over again. So my hope is that clinicians really think about what does it mean to heal your client from a racially driven experience? Because there's no such thing as wrapping it up in a gift box and moving past it when it's an experience that's happening every single day, all of the time, sometimes with the person. Even with the person that's trying to heal you. Yeah. So I tend to recommend for therapists to explore modalities like the community resiliency model, which talks about the zones of regulation. There is what are some others grounding skills that help. What am I thinking of? Somatic skills that help regulate the nervous system in the face of danger. But the focus can't be teaching the nervous system to not react in the face of danger because their nervous system is probably doing exactly what it's supposed to. Like when they have an encounter with the police or with law enforcement or if they think that the DSS worker is being racist or their family, like their. Their nervous system is doing exactly what it's to. Supposed. Supposed to in the face of danger. So I need for clinicians to recognize that this is a very, very. We're looking down years and years and years and years and years of repairing systems before healing techniques can truly be healing.

[C]

And Elizabeth, can you talk a little bit more about that on the word heal? Like, are you talking about it as in working with your client? Because I hear what you're saying, right? It's like years and years and years, systems and systems. And that's almost feels like that's not possible because, like you said, like, you might walk out the door and experience racism again right there.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Or if not, then in two weeks or whatever. So talk a little bit more about that. And are you saying, like, not to use the word heal? Are you? Help me understand a little bit more.

[D]

Yeah. Thanks for that. I think using the word healing is. Well, for me personally, it's fine as long as we've come to a shared understanding of what that means. So I might be able to heal from past experiences, knowing that I might experience them again in the future. But you can't heal white supremacy. You can't heal racism, and you can't. And it's not appropriate to dull my reactivity necessarily to racist experiences. So in my mind, I think of it as, like, I need floating devices. I need to develop the tolerance to experience some of those things. But if your focus is getting me out of the water, you're going to lose every time. Right.

[C]

So I hear you kind of coming to the general understanding of the client language first, right?

[D]

Yes.

[C]

And it feels appropriate because that's what they language that at. And you unpacked what that looks like to have a really good understanding, then that would be okay. And if not, obviously using the client's language and understanding that. Yeah, great. I mean, I know, I know we, like, are highlighting three, but I'm like, tell more, tell more, tell more. I know we have to get to three, but go ahead.

[D]

Yeah. Well, those are. Let's see.

[C]

Those are the three.

[D]

Yeah. Do your own work. Repair, identifying what is healing. I'm sure I've got more. Yes, please, please.

[B]

If you don't. Yes. If you're willing to share some more with us, bonus tips or suggestions about how to navigate this. That would be so helpful. I'm really just soaking in everything you're saying.

[D]

Yeah. I'm thinking about what does it mean for clinicians to be able to work together to create their own. I'm thinking about. So the guide I created is very specific about, here's what to say, here's what to do. And I wonder about clinicians being able to develop their own, languaging around what feels comfortable for them as they create their script. So, like, if their client has come to them saying, I think that I've experienced some racism, what does the clinician need to. What skills do they need in order to attend to that, to that statement? And for some people, it's attending to that, the immediate discomfort that jumps up in their bodies. For some, it means having conversations with other people ahead of time so they know how to have. How to talk about race. For some, it means developing the skill of just being quiet. So I encourage clinicians to create or figure out what their toolbox is and what needs to go in that toolbox before the session, during the session, and after the session so that they can develop that stamina. Like Robin d' Angelo talks about the stamina to be able to have these conversations and tolerate the discomfort. Does that make sense? Yeah. So it's kind of that overall process of, so what do I need to do beforehand? What kind of supports do I need? What kind of structures do I need? What needs to happen during the session? How do I not hesitate? Or how do I take a look at the world around me and the events around me and say, okay, there's globally, something's happening. I would like to bring this up. And then afterward, depending on how the session has gone, because it might not go well. Right. Like, the client might say, how dare you bring that up? I don't appreciate that. I didn't bring it up. Why are you talking about this? And I never want to see you again? Clinicians just have to sit with that because that might happen. Not everybody agrees with me that clinicians, I mean, there are black and people and black clinicians and other clinicians who are people of color who think that white clinicians should not bring up this topic unless the client does because of the harm that has come up historically. So not everybody agrees with me on that. And your clients might not appreciate it. So it goes towards really developing shared language, developing the relationship with the client, and having really, really competent supervision. Yeah.

[C]

And I'm curious, Elizabeth, do you mind sharing some of the things that in your guide of kind of what to say. If you haven't brought up race in sessions before, that was really helpful for me.

[D]

Yeah. The one that's jumping out at me is my favorite one. And I'm not going to say this. I don't have the guide in front of me, so I'm not going to say it exactly correctly, but it says. It invites a clinician to say, I feel awkward bringing this up. I know I'm not going to do the best job, but I don't want to pretend that this isn't happening right now. And I like that one. Because as your client who is a person of color, a black woman, I don't need you to be perfect. I don't need you to be perfect at it. But I do need you to help me open the door sometimes, and I know that. So I'm someone's client. I have a white therapist, and I've been working with her for a little over a year, and we talk about race during sessions. And I still, because of my history, my own history of racial trauma and being invalidated and being harmed by other people, when I bring up race, I still have trouble opening the door. So when she says, is there something about that that has to do with race? Or do you want to talk about what's going on right now? It's like I, like, fall through the door. Because I'm like, thank you. Thank you. I wanted to talk about it, but I didn't know if you were okay with it or if you would microaggress me or if you would invalidate me or if you'd say that I bring up race too much or if you had asked me if there are two other reasons that it could have been other than racism or. And so I invite clinicians to do it because in the. Excuse me. The feedback I've gotten from the clients I see who are people of color who have chosen not to go back to white clinicians, often it's because their white clinician has not handled talking about race in a way that feels supportive to them at all. And in what they share with me, it sounds like if the clinician had just said, wow, that sounds really intense. I hear you. Their relationship could have been saved.

[C]

And yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Because as, like, I was kind of, like, saddened hearing you talk about that, because it's like, wow, your therapist asking, like, one question, like, there was all these thoughts that you were managing yourself based off the relationship and your own worries and things like that. And it was just like, God, like, you're in therapy and wanting to talk about this and, you know, whether it's race or other topics, if we're not opening the door or just checking in, hey, did you want to talk about that? I know this has been going on lately. What are your thoughts? Like, how much are we missing as therapists by not just opening the door? And if it's like, no, I'm good with that. Like, okay, good. You know what I mean? And, hey, if we need to bring that up another time or I'm going to check in again, you know, I can imagine, like, I'm thinking even, like, about suicide. Like, if someone's constipating suicide and we hear those little things and we step over that, like, how detrimental can that be? And just to hear your own process of all those questions that you were dealing with. And, like, finally your therapist just asked.

[D]

And it was just like.

[C]

Thank you for sharing your experience, because that was very, like, enlightening and eye opening.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And I think brown people, black and brown people are really conditioned. Well, and I say this because of feedback I've gotten from my clients and friends and all the black and brown people in my life. We're really conditioned to take care of white people. And I would say for me, that is a conditioning that has been pervasive for the last 400 years to take care of white people. And that does not stop with my therapist. I'm always trying to take care of her and make sure that she feels comfortable, even when we're talking about my racial trauma. And that's something that I'm aware of because that's a skill that's kept people that look like me alive for a very, very, very long time. And that doesn't go away just because therapy is supposed to be focused on me.

[C]

Right. Thank you. I'm just. I'm just sitting in it, like, what's going on over here?

[B]

I know I'm processing a lot of what you're saying. And it's interesting, as we have these conversations, how much of this I feel in my body, you know? And I'm sure other people listening are also having similar or different reactions based on everything that you're saying. There's so much value in your perspective, and I just appreciate you sharing your experience. And I think as people listen, there's just. We all need to do our work. There's so much growing and learning, and I'm just so grateful for having you here. Thank you.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for hearing it.

[C]

And, Elizabeth, I'm Curious, you know, what do you most want people to take away from your message today? That might be a hard one to sum it all up.

[D]

Yeah, I'm thinking it's what I want people to take away. Something about how it's a journey, all of this is a journey. We're all unlearning messages that have been really indoctrinated into us. And I'd like it if clinicians were able to stay open and curious. I know that in school we were. There's this. We were taught to be these blank slates and there's this conception among the client therapy relationship that we're the one with the answers and it's okay to not have the answers. And if you stay curious and grateful with your client, that can take you really far in the relationship.

[C]

Awesome. Thank you. And I definitely want people to know more about your trainings. Maybe you could just share some of the topics that you cover. I assume they're online. Do you do in person when Covid times aren't around or are they online?

[D]

Yeah, I co facilitate a training like I mentioned earlier called are you doing it wrong? In Asheville, North Carolina, we recently did our very first online iteration of the training and it was really, really great. So we're probably going to. Our next one isn't scheduled until September and people can find out about that through my website, which is ElizabethMcORvey.come L I Z A B E T H M C C O r v e y.com and that one covers what it means to be a culturally informed therapist and do better work with clients who are people of color. And then I also do another training about racial trauma specifically and how to navigate it in a session.

[C]

Awesome. Thank you for doing that work and sharing those trainings. And I definitely want to encourage anyone listening to check out your website and hop into training. You know, so Startup Nation, I want to say, Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate that and continuing our own learning and growth. And for those of you that are listening and you know, I know that I said this on the last podcast that we did about, you know, race and anti racism is, you know, being. Being comfortable with being uncomfortable doing it wrong. You know, I've been doing stuff wrong and just doing it anyway and taking the corrections and thank you and so just step out and you know, make sure you have those people that can support you in the process. Like Elizabeth has shared is really having those structures for yourself to continue to do the work. So that would be my hope for you guys next time. We hope that you guys join us as we actually interview our startup coach Susan Block on the do's and don'ts of when starting a private practice. So we hope you guys join us next week for that.

[B]

So Elizabeth, thank you so much. I know Katie already acknowledged that and I did as well. I just want to echo that. We really appreciate having you here and Startup Nation. We we hope you enjoyed this episode. We wanted to take a moment for our Startup Nation superhero shout out. And this comes from Beth Alford. Beth says a private practice startup is a goldmine of resources for therapists who need to help navigate, who need help navigating on how to run a successful private practice. Their advice is solid and packaged in an inviting and warm way. Thanks Kate and Katie for all the great work you're doing in the world. Thank you Beth. We really appreciate it. We want to encourage you to those of you listening, if there's a topic that you haven't heard yet, definitely let us know. We love to hear your feedback about topics that have been meaningful to you or topics that you are longing for because we want to really create content that's best meeting your needs. And if you're interested in subscribing to our show, you can find the link on our Show Notes under the Podcast tab on our website so you'll see that opportunity to subscribe and we'll send you our weekly level up videos as well as our podcast. So we will look forward to seeing you on the next episode. In the meantime, stay inspired. Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

[D]

Sam.