Episode Summary: Anti-Racism & Therapy – Things Your BIPOC Client Might Want You to Know

Private Practice Startup Podcast, Episode 200
Hosts: Dr. Kate Campbell & Katie Lemieux
Guest: Elizabeth McCorvey, LCSW
Release Date: July 11, 2020

Overview

In this significant milestone episode, hosts Kate and Katie welcome psychotherapist and anti-racism trainer Elizabeth McCorvey to discuss “Anti-Racism & Therapy – Things Your BIPOC Client Might Want You to Know.” The conversation centers on the lack of anti-racism training in mental health education, practical steps therapists can take to better support BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) clients, and the internal and external work necessary for truly inclusive and responsive therapy. Elizabeth offers grounded advice rooted in her experience as both clinician and client, challenging white clinicians to move through discomfort, do their own work, and improve their cultural competence—while providing actionable tips and honest reflections on the challenges and opportunities of anti-racist practice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Elizabeth’s Journey and Motivation (02:30–04:08)

• Elizabeth describes her dual focus: working with clients, including equine-assisted psychotherapy, and leading anti-racism trainings for therapists.
• She shares the realization in grad school that education about race, racism, and minority experiences is “really, really, really inadequate,” pushing her to fill in the gaps and support both clients and fellow therapists.

2. The Importance of Therapists Doing Their Own Anti-Racism Work (05:45–08:23)

• Point #1: Clinicians must do their own work around white supremacy, racism, and anti-racism—well before it comes up with a client.
• “If you can say, ‘Are you thinking about killing yourself?’ you can say, ‘Do you think that what happened to you might have been motivated by race?’” (Elizabeth, 07:03)
• Therapists should not use clients as “guinea pigs” for their first conversations about race; instead, practice with peers and community first.

Suggested Resources (08:23–13:12)

• Books:
  • My Grandmother’s Hands by Resmaa Menakem (Somatic approaches to trauma and white supremacy)
  • White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo (Understanding white responses to racial stress)
• Film: 13th (Netflix documentary on the prison system and systemic racism)
• Podcasts: 2 Dope Queens (Media by Black creators on everyday life, not always focused on struggle)
• General Advice: “Also…take in media from people of color that is not always focused on our struggle all the time. Because we’re also just like regular people living in the world.” (Elizabeth, 09:48)

3. Addressing White Fragility and Systemic Racism (11:07–12:33)

• Acknowledgement that everyone is socialized within racist systems. Being anti-racist is an ongoing journey, not a fixed identity.
• “It’s not a question of good or bad…If you, you are. You say a racist thing, you do a racist thing. It’s not a question of good or bad, because we’re all in the system and sometimes these things happen without our knowledge…” (Elizabeth, 11:28)
• Referenced How to Be an Anti-Racist by Ibram X. Kendi

4. The Imperative of Repair When Mistakes Occur (15:12–17:47)

• Point #2: All therapists will make mistakes, including microaggressions and missteps.
• The two most important responses: “Thank you” and “I’m sorry.” Elaborate explanations and reassurances shift the burden onto the client (16:33).
• “When your client corrects you, it’s a gift. They’re giving you a gift that they did not have to give you and receive that gift gracefully.” (Elizabeth, quoting her co-facilitator, 17:03)
• “Racism is not about intent…It’s about impact and how it impacted me and how it felt to me.” (Elizabeth, 17:24)

5. Developing Stamina for Discomfort and Growth (20:12–21:03)

• Therapists should recognize their emotional responses, especially when hearing anger or pain not presented in a “palatable” way, as growth edges to notice in their own bodies.
• “If there are messages you’re not hearing because they’re not being conveyed in a way that is palatable for you, learn where that lives in your body because that’s a growing edge.” (Elizabeth, 21:03)

6. Redefining “Healing” in the Context of Racism (21:08–25:24)

• Point #3: Therapists should reconsider what “healing” means for clients with ongoing exposure to racism. Modalities should focus on grounding and resiliency rather than promising to “heal” racism itself.
• “You can’t heal white supremacy. You can’t heal racism, and you can’t. And it’s not appropriate to dull my reactivity necessarily to racist experiences… I need floating devices.” (Elizabeth, 24:07)
• Healing should be client-defined; therapists should clarify what healing means to their clients and use language accordingly.

7. Building Individualized “Toolboxes” and Scripts for Difficult Conversations (25:48–28:48)

• Therapists are encouraged to develop their own scripts and support structures for before, during, and after challenging discussions, including practicing with colleagues, developing capacity for silence, and seeking supportive supervision.
• Acknowledge potential pushback: Not all BIPOC clients or professionals agree that clinicians should broach race unless the client initiates the conversation.

8. Practical Language to Use in Session (28:48–31:09)

• Shared example from Elizabeth’s guide: “I feel awkward bringing this up. I know I’m not going to do the best job, but I don’t want to pretend that this isn’t happening right now.”
• Personal story: Even as a Black client, Elizabeth sometimes struggles to bring up race, and appreciates her white therapist asking—“I like, fall through the door. Because I’m like, thank you. Thank you. I wanted to talk about it, but…” (Elizabeth, 30:25)

9. Systemic Conditioning and Client-Therapist Dynamics (32:18–33:05)

• BIPOC clients are often conditioned to “take care of white people”—even in therapy—because it has been a survival skill for generations.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On initiating conversations on race:

  • “If you can say, ‘Are you thinking about killing yourself?’ you can say, ‘Do you think that what happened to you might have been motivated by race?’” (Elizabeth, 07:03)

• On making mistakes:

  • “When your client corrects you, it’s a gift. They’re giving you a gift that they did not have to give you and receive that gift gracefully.” (Elizabeth quoting her co-facilitator, 17:03)

• On the difference between intent and impact:

  • “Racism is not about intent. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t mean to do something…It’s about impact and how it impacted me and how it felt to me.” (Elizabeth, 17:24)

• On emotional labor and systemic conditioning:

  • “We’re really conditioned to take care of white people. And I would say for me, that is a conditioning that has been pervasive for the last 400 years to take care of white people. And that does not stop with my therapist.” (Elizabeth, 32:18)

• On the therapist’s journey:

  • “It’s a journey, all of this is a journey. We’re all unlearning messages that have been really indoctrinated into us. And I’d like it if clinicians were able to stay open and curious.” (Elizabeth, 34:01)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Elizabeth’s Background & Motivation: 02:30–04:08
• Necessity of Clinician’s Own Anti-Racism Work: 05:45–08:23
• Resource Recommendations: 08:23–13:12
• Impact vs. Intent in Racism, White Fragility: 11:07–12:33
• Repair, Apology, & Handling Mistakes: 15:15–17:47
• Processing Discomfort / Growing Edges: 20:12–21:03
• What Does Healing Mean?: 21:11–25:24
• Developing Scripts & Handling Pushback: 25:48–28:48
• Sample Script for Sensitive Topics: 28:48–31:09
• Systemic Conditioning—Taking Care of White People: 32:18–33:05
• Main Takeaway & Upcoming Trainings: 34:01–35:50

Additional Resources & Opportunities

• Elizabeth’s Trainings (35:09):
  • “Are You Doing it Wrong?”: Cultural competence workshop (now also online)
  • Training on addressing racial trauma in clinical sessions
  • Details: ElizabethMcCorvey.com

Overall Takeaways

• Anti-racist work in therapy is lifelong, relational, and requires commitment both inside and outside the office.
• Clinicians must proactively educate themselves, build accountability networks, practice honest repair, and develop scripts for difficult conversations.
• Avoiding race is not neutral for BIPOC clients; silence is both felt and noted.
• The most powerful tools are humility, openness, and the willingness to “do it wrong” while remaining engaged.
• Healing is complex and must be defined by the client, not assumed as a fixed endpoint.
• Feedback from clients is a rare gift—receive it gratefully and grow.

For more tools, guides, and information about Elizabeth’s anti-racism trainings or to access the discussed guide, visit ElizabethMcCorvey.com.