← Private Practice Startup Podcast
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- [00:02]
Introductory Voice
Welcome to the Private Practice Startup Podcast where we help mental health professionals grow their dream practices and live a life they love. We chat with successful private practitioners, business coaches and marketing experts, bringing you tons of practice building tips. We invite you to take advantage of our private practice paperwork and our signature marketing E course. And we have a gift for you. This is the exact methodology we use to create our six figure private pay practices have helped many other therapists do the same. Go to private practicestartup.com and on the homepage click the button to download a free copy of your dream private practice playbook. Now onto today's episode.
- [00:41]
Katie Lemieux
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Private Practice Startup Podcast. I am one of your hosts, Katie Lemieux. I'm here with Dr. Kate Campbell on our 360 plus episodes over the last eight years, which is crazy. So we often try to think of guests and topics that are different than our previous 300 plus episodes. Although we do talk about a lot of the same things from different perspectives, which is great. But this is actually a new topic for today, so I'm very excited about it. And from a guest we've had on, I think, well, actually Sean might have been one of our very. Either. Our first.
- [01:17]
Dr. Kate Campbell
You're our first first guest ever.
- [01:20]
Katie Lemieux
I was crazy.
- [01:21]
Dr. Kate Campbell
You were.
- [01:22]
Katie Lemieux
That's crazy. Here we are, full circle.
- [01:24]
Dr. Kate Campbell
300.
- [01:24]
Dr. Sean Davis
We were all teenagers, I think.
- [01:27]
Katie Lemieux
I know. It was eight years ago, Sean.
- [01:29]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Years ago.
- [01:30]
Katie Lemieux
Yep. It was funny. We just did a podcast with Jane Carter and I was like, oh, it's great to see you after a few years. And yep, none of us were wearing glasses and now we are all wearing glasses. I was like, yep. That just shows the age and time. So, yeah, so Sean was. Dr. Sean Davis was actually our very first guest. And here we are, 365 or something in that realm.
- [01:51]
Dr. Kate Campbell
363.
- [01:52]
Katie Lemieux
He is again, things Kate and I know. We've had Sean on our podcast a few other times, so we'll definitely put the links to those podcasts as well in our show notes. But we're talking about a very different topic today, which is great. Something I know I've struggled with. I know Kate struggled with y. And it's when the top isn't the top. Right? Thriving after you've reached your professional goals. And I'll be curious to hear what Sean has to say. But I think many times for me, you know, I've desired and wanted and efforted and time and money and you get. Get to the goal and you kind of look around you're like, huh, all right, what's next? You know what I mean? And it's like there's not a sense of accomplishment in it for me at least that I've like worked so hard for it. I've finally reached it. I know it's probably just a lot of mindset and really just taking that in. But I'll be curious of what we talk about today. But before we do that, let me give Sean a proper introduction. So Dr. Sean Davis is the Distinguished professor of Couple and Family Therapy at Alliant International University, Founder and CEO of the Davis Group Counseling and Wellness Services, a group practice with offices throughout California, winner of numerous national awards including WMFT Training Award, Research award and Dissertation award, and published numerous award winning journal articles and books, including co authoring the field's two most popular theory textbooks. So welcome back, Dr. Sean Davis.
- [03:18]
Dr. Sean Davis
Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here again. It's always fun.
- [03:21]
Katie Lemieux
It is great to have you. So before we dive into today's topic, let's just take a quick moment for our sponsor.
- [03:28]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Startup Nation. There's a lot of perks to being a private practice owner. Doing your own bookkeeping and filing taxes is not one of them. How much should I pay myself? How much should I save for taxes? Do I have to pay quarterly taxes? How do I pay less in annual taxes? These are all questions we hear from therapists all the time, which is why we've partnered with the financial experts at Heard, the accounting platform built for therapist entrepreneurs. The 2024 tax season is right around the corner and Heard can file your business and personal taxes with ease. On average, heard saves therapists 60 hours per year and financial record keeping and $5,000 in taxes. How many more clients could you see if you got 60 hours back per year at $150 per session, that's $9,000 in extra income. And when you join Heard, you get access to a team of bookkeeping and tax professionals who will guide you on your journey as you build your business. With peace of mind about your finances, you can put more energy into client care where it matters most. Schedule a free 15 minute consultation. Call today@joinherd.com private practiceStartup and use code STARTUP15 at checkout and you'll get 15% off all annual plans.
- [04:42]
Katie Lemieux
All right, so I'm curious. Well, I guess how did this topic or this thought about this topic come to be you?
- [04:49]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Good question, because it's definitely something Katie and I have struggled with. So I'm curious. As we were talking about you know, potential podcast topics, like what made this one stand out for you?
- [05:00]
Dr. Sean Davis
Yeah, well, you know, for my whole life, I have had you. We all have goals. Right. And I had. When I reached. I reached the goals that I wanted to do, both in my academic career and in my practice career, for the most part, in my mid-40s, early to mid-40s. And so at that point, I thought, great, this is. This is wonderful. But the reality is, is it sort of wasn't. Wasn't as wonderful as I thought. I thought now that those goals gave me a lot of purpose, meaning drive, direction, et cetera. And now that I've reached them, now what? I realize I'm basically maybe halfway done with life. You know, knock on wood. So now what? And it proved to be a really disorienting time, if I'm honest. It was not. You know, I had a lot of free time. I'm really purposeful. I had set it up, so I had a lot of free time. That's a big core value of mine. I was comfortable financially, and so I had, on paper, everything that I had wanted that I'd been really purposeful about, but I did not have the sort of peace and kind of sense of purpose that. That I thought I would. That I would.
- [06:22]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Yeah.
- [06:23]
Dr. Sean Davis
Been on a bit of a. Sagan. Sorry.
- [06:28]
Katie Lemieux
No, I was just saying, tell us a little bit more about that.
- [06:31]
Dr. Sean Davis
Yeah, so I went on a bit of a. I mean, the word journey sort of annoys me, but I guess in a way it was figuring out what does. What next. What. What does life look like now that I have done these things. And so I've learned quite a little bit. And I would not be honest if I said I have figured it all out. So I'm kind of speaking from this sort of static spot in this journey that I'm on with this, of figuring out how to make life meaningful once you are at this point. So I have a couple thoughts there, if you want me to just dive in.
- [07:08]
Katie Lemieux
Yeah, yeah.
- [07:10]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Well, I. I like how you were talking about. Or just the word you said, disorienting, stood out to me because it's. You know, I. I can relate to this as well. I grew up in a family that was just like. We were filled with hard workers. They instilled that as a value. And like, my whole life, I've worked so hard to reach these goals. And then, like Katie was saying earlier, it's like, you reach the goal, and it's like, okay, now what? What's the next goal? What's the Next step, I've got my PhD. I've got a successful private practice, six figures now we're a successful group practice. You know, now I've got multiple businesses that are thriving now. I've got this, now I've got that. But it's like constantly on to the next thing and you know, what gets in the way of me being able to like really just celebrate those successes and take it all in and not rush to the next thing because it's, you know, just that constant focus of pushing for more, more, more, but then the success can fall flat. Like I've definitely connected to that. And then when you have a lot more freedom and flexibility that you've created because of these businesses that thrive and being in a place where you are financially, you know, doing better and you have systems set up so that business can run like clockwork. All those things that we teach and we learn from, you know, the business and thought leaders and when you're there, it's like, okay, well, it is disorienting sometimes. Like, okay, well, what gives me purpose, what gives me meaning, what gives me joy if I'm not doing those things, if I'm not, you know, in that hustle and constantly, you know, working at stuff. So it, it can be a, you know, very confusing place to be. And I, I can relate to that at times. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
- [08:56]
Dr. Sean Davis
Yeah, it was a very, it is a very weird space for me. It was like, okay, I was well aware that I keep filling my life with projects. Like, you know, there's, as an entrepreneur, there's a never ending list of things you can do as an academic. Same thing. But I also realized there's something else going on. Like what's the point of doing this if all I'm doing is project, project, project, yes, that it grows my empire, expands my reach, etc, but, but if it just continues on to the next one, I do at some point have to stop and enjoy my life. And so when I did, I found out I wasn't actually really enjoying my life. And so it wasn't as enjoyable as I thought. So I've been trying to figure all of that out and maybe that's where I should start. I was going to start with my practical, sort of boring point, but I'll start with that sort of more kind of philosophical one is for me, the biggest key was figuring out why I had been working so hard all along. In my 20s, 30s, like I got married young, started school young, like I had my foot on the Gas the entire time. Like, hard. And I knew all along this is serving a function other than work. Like, I'm. This is, I think, in some ways, probably a bit of a trauma response. Like, I'm working so hard so I don't have to feel certain things, most likely. And so I'm in my mid-40s now, and I am really tired. I'm worn out physically. I'm maybe not in. I need to take better care of myself if I'm going to make these last half of my life good. And so I have to stop this, even though I don't want to. It's a familiar compulsion, but I have to let go of it and just sort of see what emerges. Right. And I probably am not going to like it. And sure enough, that's exactly what happened. This sort of, like, wave of. I mean, realistically, there was a fair amount of depression. It was difficult. It was a really difficult time. And so I got into therapy myself. I'm in therapy right now, figuring all of this stuff out, and that's kind of an ongoing process. But I think it has been nice to let go of the. Well, nice is probably the wrong word. It has been necessary to let go of work as. As a bit of a compulsion, perhaps, and to sort of heal the things to which. That was a response. So that's the big. That's the first thing I would say. Stop and pause. And this is probably useful, even if you aren't at the top of where you would like to be. Why are you working so hard? You know, is it to. Are you avoiding something that maybe you should. You. It should look at? Is it time to look at it? Is it not? So I would say that that was my first reluctant takeaway from all this.
- [12:13]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Yeah, I was just gonna say just to pause and be intentional about reflecting on, you know, why am I doing this? Or why. You know, why am I doing that? Why am I working so hard? What am I avoiding? Or what am I running to? What am I running from? You know, just taking the time to really reflect. So many of us. I know I'm guilty of it. Of just, you know, pushing forward, pushing forward, pushing forward, and not taking that time to really reflect. And so I love how therapy gives you the opportunity to do that. But even outside of that, you know, being able to just pause and think about, am I in alignment with what's most important to me? And this is a great piggyback for the conversation that we had had with Jane Carter, which you guys are going to hear about. Next week, talking about how to have more joy and fun in the, in life and business. And, you know, that's, that's definitely going to be a nice piggyback. So you guys will have to listen to that one, too. Katie, what were you going to say?
- [13:13]
Katie Lemieux
So I was thinking, you know, before we hit record, we were chatting a little bit, and it seems even a lot of people that I talk to, that 2024 has been a difficult year for many. I know for me, it's brought more clarity through contrast. Right. Like, I don't like doing this. What do I miss? And I know one of the big things for me is leadership. And, you know, and I share with people that I've been in leadership since 26 years old at a very young age. And it's just something that, you know, I love. And I've started to look at and talk to people about how can I be back in that role somehow. Right. Because that's something I'm missing. So I'm just wondering for you, Sean, did something happen this past year or it's just a culmination of reflections over your last two decades of this is what I've done, this is what I've achieved, and still I'm lacking kind of that, that purpose. So I was just curious.
- [14:04]
Dr. Sean Davis
Sure. I would say for me, part of the cascade was stuff in my personal life. My mom has dementia and she lives a few states away in a really remote place. And so trying to be involved with taking care of her and then just a number of things in my personal life, I think. I don't know. I have a theory that around your mid-40s, anything you're doing that is fundamentally not true is going to run out of energy at some point. And I think for most people, that is around the mid-40s, when that sort of runs out. Like, if a way of doing something isn't true or isn't healthy, it will just. You run out of energy eventually. And I think that just sort of culminated for me around this time. And so I had to reevaluate a lot of stuff that I was doing. Pick. I also my health. I'd kind of sacrificed my health a bit with working so hard. And I got some numbers back from the doctor, and he was like, hey, you know, you're. You're at a turning point here. And so that was part of it. Well, so I took up mountain biking. So I'm. I'm a coach on the high school mountain bike team now. I'm. I do that, like religious. I Sort of. That's like most of what I care about these days.
- [15:27]
Dr. Kate Campbell
That's great.
- [15:27]
Katie Lemieux
Well, we definitely don't have that here in flat South Florida. There's no mountain bike.
- [15:32]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Definitely not.
- [15:34]
Dr. Sean Davis
No.
- [15:35]
Dr. Kate Campbell
That's great. So it's an opportunity for you to get reconnected to something that you're passionate about that's going to bring you joy and then all the health benefits that come along with that, mentally, emotionally, physically, all of it.
- [15:47]
Dr. Sean Davis
Exactly. It scratches a lot of different itches at the same time. So. Yep, yeah, that was the plan.
- [15:54]
Katie Lemieux
So, Sean, maybe before we dive into more of like the practical part and what you were talking about, let's just take a quick moment for our sponsor, Trying to navigate all the things as a therapist is hard, especially when you're trying to stay focused on the most important thing your clients. Of course. That's why Therapy Notes makes billing, scheduling, note taking and telehealth incredibly easy. Also, for all you prescribers out there, Therapy Notes is proudly offering e prescribed services. One of the things that I love about Therapy Notes is that they really have the clinician in mind. Working with a company like Therapy Notes helps streamline the back end of your business. If you're a busy therapist, good quality support is essential. That's why Therapy Notes has telephone support seven days a week. No wonder why they're the number one top rated EHR and why more than a hundred thousand therapists trust them. Therapy Notes is offering two months of their EHR absolutely free, no strings attached. So go to therapynotes.com and enter the code PPS that's therapynotes.com and enter the Code PPS. If you've decided to accept insurance as part of your private practice business model, you likely have some questions ranging from how do I know what to bill? To why is this claim not processing? Practice Solutions is here to help you answer those questions. You can find a ton of resources on their blog or join hundreds of mental health providers and hiring Practice Solutions Expert billing team to manage your insurance billing. They've assembled some of the best billers in the US to manage your eligibility checks, claim submissions, follow up on denial management and to maximize your insurance reimbursement and improve your cash flow. They now also offer solutions for private pay billing, including management of digital and physical statements, payment collections and posting and client aging reporting. You can spend less time billing and more time caring for your clients and growing your practice. With Practice Solutions, they're offering private practice startup listeners a free consultation as well as 15% off the first three months of billing, visit practicesol.com startup nation and schedule an appointment. That's practicesol.com/startup nation. All right, so let's dive into that more practical part.
- [18:27]
Dr. Sean Davis
Sure. One thing that I discovered is this concept. Well, one problem I had was I have all this free time, and I realized people listening are going to roll their eyes. Like, that's not a problem. But it really sort of is. Like, come on. But I had all this free time all of a sudden, um, on an average week, I had three or four days of the week with nothing scheduled on it, or not very much at all.
- [18:53]
Dr. Kate Campbell
And so I think just to interject.
- [18:55]
Dr. Sean Davis
First, that was great.
- [18:56]
Dr. Kate Campbell
I think I just want to interject so people understand the context. Right. You were a solo practitioner, you have multiple group practices across the state of Florida. You have a large team under you, and so you're. You. That's given you a lot more freedom to be able. I just wanted to put that context so people are like, is he in private practice? Like, how does he have so much freedom? So you've. You've leveled up in that way that's been able to give you more freedom. I'm sorry to interrupt.
- [19:25]
Dr. Sean Davis
No, that's fine. Yeah. In California, I started as a professor, had a private practice on the side solo, and then grew that practice into a group. Scaled my academic profession career back to half time during the pandemic, and expanded my group practice, which gave me a lot of free time once it was all set up and running and systematized and all that stuff. So, yeah, that's a lot of hard work. And then it ends up with a lot of free time, which, again, was pretty disorienting. And I found myself, uh, when I was really busy in the super, super busy years, I mean, I. I was a machine. I would crank out stuff like crazy. Um, and I found that I was more productive in my busy years when I had maybe like five hours of free time during the week than now when I had like four days of free time. I'm like, what's wrong here? And so part of that was my mindset. Like, I was taking a break. But part of it was I was just really inefficient with my time. And so I learned this concept of called batching, which you might be familiar with, where you take chunks of time. For any listeners that don't know what it is, you devote one day to a particular thing or one chunk of time, like, okay, this afternoon is for writing. And that's all it is. This day is for Creating online content or this day is for seeing clients. Whatever it is, instead of skill scattering it all through the week, you chunk it into times and just really crank out whatever you need to during that point. That was very, very helpful for me in terms of being more purposeful and more productive with my time and more conscious about what I was doing.
- [21:24]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Yeah, it also helps with not being so exhausted from the decision fatigue of having a million tabs open and a million different. You're shifting gears so many different times. Like the decision fatigue. Going from here, this task to this task to this task, you just focused on one thing. You can be so much more efficient and get, you know, just. The productivity goes skyrockets.
- [21:50]
Dr. Sean Davis
Exactly. And you end up still having quite a bit of free time because you're a lot more efficient when you are working. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [21:59]
Dr. Kate Campbell
So that's something that's been helpful. What else has been helpful as you've been navigating all of this?
- [22:06]
Dr. Sean Davis
Yes. I would say my last big thing that has been really helpful is being purposeful about what you do with the time. In my mind, I had been working for this time so I could relax and take it easy a bit. And so I did. I spent a lot of time. Almost every day. I was up in the mountains, mountain biking. I was sort of doing stuff that I liked to do, and yet I. I felt pretty empty. Like, it was. It was not fulfilling. Part of that was all the angst that was, like, crashing down on me from. From not working anymore, but part of it was just. It wasn't fulfilling. And I realized it was because I had gotten disconnected from another one of my core values, which is sort of giving back and contributing and sacrifice and sort of sharing. I was raised very much with the idea that if you have something, you should share it. And so I had fallen into this trap of subtly being a little bit indulgent with all of this freedom and time and money that I had worked so hard to achieve. And so shifting that mindset from, okay, this isn't. It's not about just relaxing, living the Instagram life, so to speak, at this point. It's about using this to give back and to contribute and not replacing it with more busyness. And at first I was like, okay, cool, yeah, I'm going to start a nonprofit. I'm going to do this. And that was like, no, no, no. That's going right back into the world I just tried to get out of, but slowly, deliberately. What can I do? And so I found things that, for me felt very Meaningful. Improved people's lives in a meaningful way. And yeah, that was. That helped solve that problem of meaning that I found on was really lacking.
- [24:16]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Beautiful. What else?
- [24:21]
Dr. Sean Davis
It's a journey.
- [24:23]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Your favorite word.
- [24:24]
Katie Lemieux
Anything else that helps, Sean?
- [24:26]
Dr. Kate Campbell
It is a journey.
- [24:29]
Dr. Sean Davis
What was that, Kate?
- [24:31]
Katie Lemieux
No, just saying anything else that has helped during this time.
- [24:37]
Dr. Sean Davis
Being patient with yourself, connecting relationships has. Have been important. I have gone in different ways with that during all of this. There have been times where I've been sort of pretty isolated as I've been dealing with stuff. And I tend to sort of. When I'm going through stress, I tend to sort of isolate more and take it on myself. And not on purpose necessarily. It's just I'm a little more avoidant, I think. So reaching out for friends has been incredibly rewarding. I often will go out to lunch now just with friends and get their advice and ask their help, and it has been really fun to sort of reconnect in that way.
- [25:26]
Katie Lemieux
Yeah.
- [25:27]
Dr. Sean Davis
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Dr. Kate Campbell
I mean, when you're in the I'm glad you're in the growth phase of your business and you're working so hard, you know, whether it was in academia, in your position as a professor, you're constantly communicating and interacting with people, and then in private practice, as you're seeing clients and you have a group practice and you're clinicians and, you know, you constantly have that feedback loop of connection, and then you go to all this free time, and then you really don't have as much of that unless you're being super intentional about it. So now that you're fulfilling that cup that was, you know, running on empty, it seems like that's been pretty powerful. I can relate to that a little bit. Just in terms of going from a solopreneur to transitioning into a group practice owner and then retiring as a therapist and focusing more on the business side of things, and then realizing with the pandemic that, you know, I don't have to be in the office in order to work. Right. I get way more done productivity wise, when I'm working from home because I'm not putting my hair and makeup on, driving to and from the office. But I'm lacking that connection with my team and that, you know, here I am today. You guys can't see me because this is a podcast. You're just hearing it. I'm in the office, I'm seeing the team, I'm giving hugs. It just reminds me of why I do what I do. It's just so fulfilling for my soul. And although I'm not going to get nearly as much done. It's feeding me in a different way that is so important to keep my passion alive and keep my brain focused on like why I got into this in the first place. Although I love the freedom and flexibility to be able to work from home and just, you know, in my yoga attire and get whatever done. It's just like that intentional connection. And what do you do with the time to make sure that you're filling those core values and those needs?
- [27:21]
Dr. Sean Davis
Yeah, that's a really good point. The, the autonomy can bring isolation just sort of by default because you're off doing your own thing. And you ha. You do have to be a lot more purposeful about the relationships. I did, at least.
- [27:35]
Katie Lemieux
Yeah. So Sean, what do you want our audience to take most away from your message today?
- [27:41]
Dr. Sean Davis
To be purpose wherever you are on the spot. Maybe you haven't quite met your goals yet. Maybe you have wherever you are along that path, just be really purposeful about what you're doing and why you're doing it. I think is important. Take the time to reflect on that and as much as you can be in alignment with it, do the work that you need to do to, to get there. We live, I think, in the States, at least in a very work obsessed society. I think we're a young country and we're still excited about growing and building and producing. And we're teenagers as a country. We're in our 20s. And so that I think comes at a cost to all of us. And we don't often pause and reflect on that cost or maybe what it is about us that is playing along with it. And is it, are there ways we can step back from it and still be as productive but maybe a bit more intentional?
- [28:53]
Katie Lemieux
Yeah. And I feel like this, your podcast is such a great segue to the podcast that we had with Jane, which is after this and really talking about fun. And I think from what I'm taking away from your message today, it's like being purposeful about adding purpose and Jane's message fund right into our life and building work around that when it's, it's so hard because the default, like you said, especially in the US is success driven and do more, do more. Lots of projects. And you know the old adage of the saying is you want something done, give it to a busy person. Right. Because they will have that 15 minutes where they could stick it right in their schedule. Cause then they have something right after that. So it makes a lot of sense. And you know, Kate had mentioned on our previous podcast, you know, I feel like a lot of the podcasts today are talking right to us. So I appreciate you sharing your journey with us, Sean, and appreciate having you back here.
- [29:46]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Sean, we so appreciate you being here today and like Katie said, sharing your journey, your, you know, the personal and professional side to this and just reminding us all to be more mindful and present and intentional along the journey, making sure that, you know, we're living in alignment with our core values throughout the different phases of life. And as business evolves with us, we want to make sure that we stay connected to that. And it's a good reminder for me. I know I took a lot away from this and, you know, it's something that, you know, I continue to work on in my own life and business. So, Startup Nation, we hope you all found this to be helpful. And Sean, I know you have a giveaway for our audience, so this would be a perfect time for you to share that.
- [30:28]
Dr. Sean Davis
Yes, one of the things that I have that has emerged from this for me is wanting to share, you know, just knowledge I've gained over the years as a professor, sort of lectures I've given, that type of thing that are usually, you know, to students or to close colleagues. And so I offer free continuing ed practice classes at my group and they are monthly and they're online or in person available to anyone. So if anyone wants, you can go to my webpage. It's the davisgroup.org Continuing Education and you can. There's CEUs for California therapists. I don't think it will work for other states. You'd have to check and see. But you're anyone's welcome to attend for free. Most of them are free. Some of them are like the bigger ones are not, but most of them are free. So hop on if you are interested.
- [31:24]
Katie Lemieux
Awesome. Thank you for that resource.
- [31:28]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Yes. Well, Startup Nation, we hope you enjoyed the episode and as always, we love hearing your feedback. If there's a topic that we haven't had on in these 363 episodes, please let us know. We love creating content that really meets your needs along the startup and growing and scaling phases. And we want to encourage you to subscribe, rate and review the show and of course, share it with your fellow friends and colleagues who could benefit from it. So definitely listen to the next episode that we have with Jane Carter about incorporating more fun into your business and into your life. It's a perfect segue to complement what we Talked about with Dr. Sean Davis here today. And we hope you have a fun filled and inspired life over this next week. And we'll see you on the next episode. Everybody. Take care. Take care, everybody.
- [32:16]
Dr. Sean Davis
Thank you.
- [32:17]
Dr. Kate Campbell
Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.