A (4:14)

Hi. How are you doing today? Good. Thank you guys for having me. And third time is a charm, hopefully. Fingers crossed.

B (4:21)

Of course. So we're going to say right now, so I'm actually in my guest bedroom today and Jessica is actually in her, her house, in her kitchen, literally. And so both of our dogs are locked away, hoping that they're not gonna make noise. But if you hear some whining or barking, that's Just what's going on? Jessica, what are your dogs names?

A (4:38)

Koda and Nyla. And yes, they are from Disney movies. When you're in Orlando, that's kind of like the thing. So they are small little dachshunds, little weenie dog.

B (4:51)

So what movies are those from?

A (4:53)

Nyla is from Lion King and I've been told that we say it wrong. It's supposed to be Nala. Koda is from Brother Bears.

B (5:03)

I don't know that one.

A (5:04)

He looks like a little teddy bear. He's a long haired dachshund, so sometimes he's really fluffy.

B (5:10)

Gotcha. We'll hope that the sound of mom's voice is enough to soothe them throughout our podcast. So we're going to be talking about five ways interns or supervisees or if you're new to private practice, can start a private practice. So of course I want to know, how did you decide? Number one, how did you decide to become a therapist?

A (5:30)

I think kind of like that cliche topic or that answer. We all go into it for a reason. There were some stresses and anxieties that were happening during my undergrad with family. And at that time I was experiencing some anxiety myself and I didn't know what it was. So went through the whole, typical, you know, go to the medical doctor, get ekg, you know, experience all this stuff and then they come back, nothing's wrong with you. And then I fell into like a Psych 101 class and realized, oh, it's anxiety. So I kind of went on this journey of I don't want anybody else to kind of experience this and feel like they're struggling. And I definitely want to help others with anxiety. So that was my kind of kickstart to it.

B (6:21)

Gotcha. So I like how you say you fell into Psych 101. Was it like all the other classes were closed and Psych 101 was like the last one open and you're like, take it.

A (6:31)

I really don't remember. I took it and as an elective. I really don't remember. It probably was, it was probably like, you know, you can have those different tech classes, those hands on stuff. And I was like, yeah, I want to take something that I can just read and type and be done with it. So it wasn't. I was actually going into law at the time. My undergrad was going to be in the legal field, so totally not even psychology.

B (7:00)

Gotcha. So. And then how did you decide to jump in a private practice as an intern? That's like A major feat and requires a lot of bravery. It's a lot.

A (7:10)

Yeah. And it was a lot of unexpected, like you said it was. As an intern, you hear so many people, just wait until you're licensed. Don't do it. Go to agency work. Don't do it. And at the time, I was working at a law firm. My last year of grad school, well, I was at the law firm for eight years, so undergrad and grad school. And then my last year of grad school, you kind of start questioning, what am I going to do next? What's my next steps? What does this look like? How long will it take me to get to where I want to go? In my undergrad, I knew I wanted to work with college students with anxiety, so. So I knew that that was my niche. When I started looking at jobs and job postings for interns right out of grad school, it was children, it was families, it was very little kids. And that wasn't the area I wanted to specialize in. So I started overturning some things, and I'm like, well, if it's not out there for me to specialize in that area during my internship, then what's the purpose of my internship? If that's what I want to get specialized in? I don't want to be a generalist. Like, I know where I. The direction I want to go. So I started asking questions about how to start private practice as an intern. I started feeling like a lot of the doors were being closed. A lot of negativity. Don't do it. You're not allowed. Then you look up the laws and rules, and it was not black and white. It wasn't, yes, you can. No, you can't. Emailing back and forth between the board, and then I just decided, you know what? It's gray. There's a whole bunch of gray area. It's gray for a reason. So if it's gray, you just do what you have to do legally to protect yourself within the bounds of our license. Make sure you have supervision. Make sure you are, you know, closing all the holes legally in that aspect and just go for it. Because there's just too much gray area. There's nothing that says, no, you absolutely can't. And that was all I needed. The fact that there wasn't a no, I went for it. That's where beginning counselors in Florida was born.

B (9:22)

That's awesome. And I'm sure working in law helped that.

A (9:26)

Yeah.

B (9:26)

Looking for the gray zone. Yep.

A (9:28)

And I think that, that, you know, when you're in school, you think, what am I doing? I'm changing my degree so many times. I'm so thankful that I had that eight years of legal background. Even though it wasn't in mental health. It really did help a lot of just trying to get started in private practice.

B (9:46)

That's great. It's funny, I always tell the story that in my entire college career, I've only read two books. Like, this is a true story. And back in 2015, I went through a year of business coaching and my business coach had said to me, or I had said to him, I said, hey, I'm really ready.

A (10:00)

I'm excited.

B (10:00)

I'm excited for the activity you're gonna give me. And he's like, oh, did you read the book I gave you? I was like, no, I'm not a reader. He's like, no activity. And I was like, oh. And like, literally he gave me this like 60 page book and I hated reading so much that I like literally sat on my patio set my for 10 minutes and I read 10 minutes until I finished the book. But I always love to read Law, Law and Contracts because I always love to find loopholes, you know, and that's what you're talking about is the gray zone. And so that's a lot of fun. And so, of course, so just to, for those of you who are listening, is that Jessica and I are actually in the state of Florida. So obviously each state has their own laws. And so if you're an intern, an unlicensed person getting into practices, you want to make sure you double check with your state laws first about what the contingencies are and criteria for unlicensed folks. And if you're licensed, you know, it's a different story.

A (10:50)

Yeah.

B (10:51)

So share. Like, when you thought about, like, I love that you had a niche now did you know you needed to niche or you're just saying, no, this is just what I wanted to do.

A (10:59)

I had no idea that we needed to niche or that was even an option. It was just something like, this is what I want to do. This is. I want to find all of the resources and trainings on this culture, this population between 18 and 30, 35. And that's, that's the area I want to specialize in. I had no idea that we needed to knit. And still until after doing, you know, more research and realizing, oh, well, this is a thing that you do in.

B (11:28)

Private practice so well in any business to be successful.

A (11:31)

Right, Right. Yeah.

B (11:33)

I would say, like Frito Lay, they make chips that's all they make.

A (11:36)

You know what I mean? They don't.

B (11:37)

They don't. They don't make other things. They don't venture into other worlds. They might create another business. But yeah, so it's super important. So what, like, I always want to know, like, what was before you stepped in a private pract, like, what was the dream like, how did you perceive it was gonna be?

A (11:52)

I thought there was going to be. So I came from a law firm, right. And in my mind, that was a practice, like a practicing law firm. And we were in a huge building, downtown Orlando, 14 floors, and three of them were ours in the practice. So there were associate attorneys, there were seasoned attorneys, there were shareholders, you know, and I just assumed, oh, that's what private practice is going to be like as a counselor. And because I had actually my own therapist at the time had a similar. She was in a very similar building. There was multiple offices. They had the reception area. It felt very similar to the law firm. So my perception of private practice was maybe suede sounds very luxurious. Yeah. And. And I had no idea. Okay. Most private practices do not feel like doctor's offices or law firms until I walked across the stage and started, you know, my own stuff and realized it's usually one or two people. You're usually completely by yourself. You know, I thought that there were going to be people that were seasoned, a lot more private practices out there to kind of catch the interns coming out of grad school and then support them. And you have a whole caseload and you have maybe a salary and you have benefits and. Right. You know, you hear attorneys and doctors, they come out, they get assigned, quote, unquote, a sign on bonus. You know, I thought that was going to be similar. I thought, you know, people have insurance, take insurance on insurance panels. It's going to be this big great thing. And it was a very hard, I call it my existential crisis moment. So for sure.

B (13:47)

And I think, unfortunately, that is the truth. And the nature of the base is it's very far and few between that there's a practice that has it down and is doing so well that they actually have cases to give clients to see. Because ultimately in private practice, we're in business, like put therapy to the side, like we're in business. And most of us, unless we have a business degree, which rarely most therapists have, is you're actually creating a business to put therapy into.

A (14:15)

Right.

B (14:16)

And so you have to create all of that honestly yourself, especially as a solopreneur. So it is One of those hard things. And you know, I feel sad a lot of times when people still have that illusion of, oh well, no, I have someone, they said they're going to give me cases. And you know, I asked, well, what is their marketing like, what is their advertising? How many clients are they bringing in? How many clients are they referring on a consistent basis? Because it is an illusion. And sometimes I think some well intentioned clinicians who have somewhat of an established practice might set up other folks for failure as well, wanting and desiring to grow their practice. Or maybe they did something advertising wise that brought in a lot of clients and they want to give those clients, but it's not a consistent thing. And then the intern or the unlicensed person or the person just starting in private practice is then left with, like you said, I thought I was going to get all this support and now I don't have clients and now I have to go back to having a job. And I just want to say something about that is like if you do have to go back to having a job or work part time or whatever, it's just all part of the process. I know that when I left my company full time, even though I had probably been seeing like eight or ten clients a week by then, you know, to make ends meet, I actually was a part time clinical director for a period of six months. And then my practice finally reached the six figure mark. And then I could like leave all that behind and just, you know, stay full time practice. So, you know, your journey is your journey and it's okay and you're learning along the way and you know, and this is what we're sharing with you today. And Jessica's kind of sharing her journey. So share with us a little bit more some of the other obstacles that you hit upon.

A (15:44)

Well, two things that you just brought up about, you know, it's your journey and if you have to quit or you have to go into something else, don't let that kind of hinder you, but let it kind of just use it as a resting space to go forward. I remember sitting with one of my clinical supervisors maybe three or four months after getting my registered intern working for an agency, still working full time at the law firm. And I was like, I don't want to do this. This sucks. Why is everybody else like, they have, you know, salaries and they have full time caseloads and they're going to get done with their hours and the two to three year mark they're, you know, they have what I thought I Wanted this perception. And she asked me, what are. If you could explain your career in three words, what would it be? And I was like, flexibility, stability and variety. And I remember her saying, well, okay, so you're gonna have to work on that because some of those don't go together. Right? Like, how do you have stability and flexibility and variety? Like, how would you connect those? So I actually ended up burning out after three or four months of agency work and I totally quit. Quit. And I didn't think I was going to go back into mental health. I thought I was going to go back into the law field and go to hr, because why not? Like, HR needs psychology background. I started looking up certifications for that. And I think that four months really helped to define further what my purpose was and what I wanted to do when I went back into it. So that's when I decided, you know, if I give this up, the number one thing I will feel is regret. So I decided that I was gonna go back in and do exactly what I wanted to the private practice. I was gonna take it slow, I was gonna build very slowly. Luckily, at the time they didn't have the new law where there's a five year limit. So I decided, you know what, at the end of this, I want something there. Like, I want this thing to be there. A private practice, something stable, something with various forms, you know, doing podcasts, doing continuing education credits and having, you know, support in those areas. So that's what kind of jump start. Jump started that going into private practice as an intern. I did start some of it during my grad program. So when we talk about, like the five ways or five things interns can do, one of them I always suggest is start. If you really are serious about doing private practice, go ahead and make it fun. Don't wait until the end and start your website, you know, in grad school, but do it the right way. I did mine on, what was it?

B (18:40)

Weebly.

A (18:41)

And I thought, okay, I got a website. Cool. Like, let's go. And little did I know I was wasting my entire time. So if you the time and the resources while you're in grad school or before you jump out into trying to get hours and supervision, go ahead and start the foundation of your website. What would that look like? You know, and who cares if you have to change it later? Get somebody that knows what they're doing with SEO. Get somebody that can help you get the foundation of it started, your online marketing started. Because I feel like that's one thing that interns can do. Just don't advertise yourself in the wrong ways. As in like don't say that you're licensed when you're not. Make sure you say that you're a registered intern. You can have your own website. There's absolutely nothing that says that you can't. So those are some of the things that I started and I think I share with other interns. Just go. Just go for it. Yeah.

B (19:40)

And what's cool about you is that you actually knew your niche. And one of the things that most people come into business is it's the scarcity factor. Right. I went through it when I first went into practice. It was addictions, trauma, grief, children, I don't even know what else. So there was a lot of stuff going on. And then eventually I fell into couples work and niched down that way. And I love it. I niche down even to a fair recovery. And that's one of my things I'm most passionate about. But having a niche is really essential. And I love Jessica that you say and I in my private conversations with people like one on one or in the Facebook groups and things like that is start now, but more so even kind of starting with a plan, like a direction, like sketch out some type of outline. Right. But before you go to do your website is know your niche first. Right. And if you're not exactly clear, you know, this is where Kate and I love to help people, clinicians overall is really get clear on their marketing messages, their ideal client. And actually we help you create the copy that you need for your website and with what you're saying, Jessica, regards to website guys, when you do go into private practice, if you're just kind of taking the leap or getting ready to take the leap, it's a lot, it's a big undertaking. You're an expert in being a therapist, you're not an SEO expert. And I share this with you because I actually just today had a great call with Matt Milway of Unconditional Media and he actually installed, he took off an old plugin in my WordPress website, reinstalled the Yoast plugin and we actually did a 45 minute tutorial with my assistant. So not something I'm going to be doing, not something I care to do. There's a lot to know and Google is the overall arching, kind of like big daddy of it all. And so when Google changes things and if you're not sitting there studying that stuff, you're not going to stay up to date. So that's a huge thing. But obviously, with you having a website, it's important to even get that up, because you want longevity. Longevity is really important on the web. So when you are ready to launch in a practice, people will find you.

A (21:39)

So what else, Jessica?

B (21:39)

What else do you want to share?

A (21:40)

Yeah, and so the website just did something like, I had niched mine, and so there I. Private practice is something that you're gonna change. You're gonna shift, you're gonna niche, and then you're gonna decide, you know what? I don't want to do that. I want to change. And it's okay. You know, you'll still get calls for that niche and you can take it all down and you can put something else up and it's fine. It's fine. I'm actually now that I'm bringing others on under me, I'm having to redo my website, which I outsource to somebody because, like you said, constantly changing, and I don't want to deal with it. It hurts my brain. And we're a therapist, and I'd much rather study therapy stuff. So. But now we're doing the website in a way that would fit multiple therapists. And then my niche is going to be, you know, kind of in the website, but it's going to be in a place that will just show up when people search for those niche words. So, yeah, so just the website stuff, that's something that you can. Go ahead, you could get started. Business cards. You know, you want to get your name out there. You want people to know who you are. You can have simple business cards with a phone number. You want to try to get the phone ringing. That way you can kind of see how difficult it really is to get the phone to ring, you know, and have fun with it and don't feel like you have to have a lot of pressure. Just say, okay, I'm going to try this, and if it doesn't work, okay, let me see. So that you can know if private practice is really something that you want to do or not. It's not easy, but it is doable.

B (23:20)

And I know that you had a thought about financial options for new beginners.

A (23:25)

What was.

B (23:26)

Tell us about that.

A (23:27)

So getting started in private practice is. Is a lot of financial undertaking, right? You have rent, you have liability insurance. You have all of this stuff, ethically and clinically, that we have to focus on. But in the business, the business is going to need, you know, 30% of your income for taxes or things like that. You have. I have student loans. I don't Have a lot of support with family. Nobody went to college before me. And so student loans, I have federal and have private. Going into business has been extremely difficult because I'm also the first in my family that has had a business. So a lot of times they don't understand, you know, well, why are you spending money to make money? And it's kind of hard to explain that. But when you have student loans, make sure that you're, you know, looking at some options, financial options in that aspect. Put them in forbearance if you have to refinance them, if you have to get the interest rate down. They have the federal loan programs where you can do income based. So if you're getting started in private practice, that kind of helps so that you're not feeling like you're suffocating and trapped. Some other financial options to look at are, if you're trying to start a private practice, make sure you write, expenses are low in the beginning. Try what you work with, what you have, where you are in the moment. If you can look into people that are subleasing their space, they rent per hour, they rent per day. I've seen so many interns that that illusion of I can do this, everybody else is doing it, they're having success. Without that success being really defined or understood, what is it looks like behind the scenes, they jump in and they sign leases for 1500 bucks a month right off the bat. And that can be, you know, very make or break. Yeah. Because if you're signing a lease for that much for a year, what's gonna happen? The first year of any business is you're lucky if you make money sometimes. And the third year is when you start to hit that, that plateau. You either make it or you break it in any business, not just private practice. So my heart goes out when I hear those stories. Because you want to help, you want to be there and support them. So I think knowing what the financial options are, knowing that you don't have to go into a year lease, you can do month to month, you can do, you know, pay by the hour. You can have the flexibility variety, you can try different locations even, you know, and leaning on your financial support those ways. Yeah.

B (26:20)

And one point, like when you say, like you can even start when you're in college and stuff like that, like one of the things, again, Kate and I have done a ton wrong. And that's why we do what we do because we're passionate about therapists building and growing their dream practice in a way that allows them to be in.

A (26:33)

The world doing the work that they love.

B (26:35)

And you know, one of the things I definitely did not do, I didn't have a marketing plan. And the other thing that we always talk about is really creating a lifestyle business first. So what that means is grabbing, you know, going on to Word, printing out like a month, right. And looking at the calendar and deciding how it is that you want your business to be, what hours you want to work, what days, how many weeks do you want to have off and really crunching some numbers. But also, you know, just getting really clear on starting to save for marketing. Because marketing in practice, outside of taxes, taxes is one of your biggest, is your biggest expense in life usually. But having a marketing plan so when you are ready to hit the ground running is you actually have some money to put toward marketing. And that's really, really important. Whether it's networking events or things like that, or if you're doing AdWords or other forms of advertising or paying people to help you get off and running. It's really essential. So that's just like another like added thing as I kind of reflect on my journey. So great talking points. I know we kind of started off talking about if you are an unlicensed clinician is knowing your rights and laws in your state. So make sure that you check that out. We talked about financial options for new beginners. Jess was talking a lot about, you know, looking at your student loans is what can you with that you're not going to be able to take a loan out if you never had a business. That's not going to happen. Usually are required two years of actually like loan statements being in business. So if you're going expanding. Yeah, maybe. And one of the things I really like Jessica, you always talk about and we as well is the evolution. Right. And you and I, even before we hopped on the podcast is in business there's this constriction and expansion, constriction and expansion and that happens and that's okay. And so your practice, like Jessica said, will evolve. And if you have a niche already, fantastic. You are like way ahead of the game. But if you don't and you really want some help, that's where Kate and I can definitely help you. And we'll add to the show notes page the link to our coaching in regards to that. And then starting a website, really important website is always a non negotiable when it comes to practice or any business.

A (28:34)

Because where do we always first look?

B (28:36)

Google. So that gives you instant credibility if you don't have a website, think about yourself as a consumer. You even wonder if the business is legit. So awesome tip, Jessica. What do you want to make sure our listeners take away from your message today?

A (28:51)

I want them to take away, you know, just do it. Just do it.

B (28:57)

In the words of Nike, in the.

A (28:59)

Words of Nike, just, just go for it. You know, there's gonna be times where you fall flat on your face. Like I had the Weebly website, for example, and it wasn't really working very well. And you can, you can do, you can try different things. You can start, I always suggest, start with all of the free resources. There's tons of free directories out there. Go ahead and get on all of those. You know, start with free and then expand. Once you have X amount of clients or calls, then go, then put the money somewhere like Google, AdWords or something like that. Don't feel like you have to, like you said, take out a gigantic loan and pay for all of it all at once. And you run. You can start with where you are and what with what you have. My private practice. So I was so doing other. Talking about financial options too. I was out on my own in the beginning. I had a licensed person on site, but it was just a little too much for me as an intern to try to do everything and learn and all of that. So I chose to go under someone and they had a practice already started. We did like the 6040 split. I had a certain amount that I was getting, but I was still doing all of my own advertising and marketing. And so like you said, making sure, you know, what are the different practices offering? So the rights of an intern in private practice, you still have the right to advertise yourself. You know, you still have, even though you're with an agency or a company, you can still market and advertise yourself. You can still take phone calls on your own. You can still, you know, do things within the bounds of your contract with the agency, of course, but you are still independent if you are a contractor, which most interns are contractors. So looking at, you know, that you have more power as an intern than I think a lot of people believe or think. We look at those ahead of us and for guidance. But sometimes we don't realize that we have our own strengths and powers that we can go out there and advertise and do things on our own too. Yeah.

B (31:15)

And that like hits on a really good point is, you know, unfortunately. So Kate and I also teach the supervision course and we're supervisors here in the state of Florida. And so we're constantly in the laws, the rules and ethics and a lot of people look to us for the answer, you know what I mean? The true answer. Because there's a lot of misinformation. And so not only having one good supervisor, but also mentors and coaches that really can help and guide you along the process. And I know that one of the places that you can ask a lot of questions is actually in Jessica's Facebook called Beginning Counselors of Florida. So if you're a Florida based intern or if you're beginning in counseling, this is a great resource for you. I know there's other awesome supervisors, I know Kathleen Hall's in there and some other folks that really give solid answers that you guys need to know. And then you also have some blogs and resources for beginning counselors and website which, which we'll also go ahead and put that into the show notes page. So, Jess, thank you so much for just sharing your journey, being willing to just be vulnerable and share the process, some of the things that you were disillusioned by and some of the obstacles and the things that you learned. I'm sure this is valuable to our Startup Nation. And my fingers are crossed that actually once we finally stop this recording three times the charm will actually be recorded. Yes, dogs are quiet.

A (32:30)

Nothing happened.

B (32:31)

No hail storms, tornadoes or anything like that or sickness. Startup Nation, we hope you have an amazing day. We hope that you join us next week. And as Jessica is talking about building and growing her practice, maybe she'll check out this podcast as well. It's going to be with Maureen Warbach. She's going to be talking about the two pronged approach to group building a group practice through marketing. She's pretty much a badass. I have to say, when we actually did the podcast with her, we were very inspired by what she had shared and how she grew two group practices in regards to practices and how she utilizes all of the therapists to really shine and kind of present their niche out there in the world. So really great podcast. You're definitely going to want to listen to that. And Startup Nation, as you've listened to this podcast, I'm sure there's a few colleagues of yours or friends in the field that you said. I really think they need to hear this podcast. So we're going to encourage you to share it, send them a text, forward them this podcast so that they can get the ninja tips and the little golden nuggets that we had shared today. So we look forward to having you join us time and we hope you guys have an inspired day. Thank you for allowing us to continue to inspire you from startup to mastery. See you later Startup Nation.

A (33:43)

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

B (34:00)

Sam.