Episode 90: From the Horse's Mouth- Equine Assisted Psychotherapy & Learning

Summary

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Private Practice Startup Podcast

Episode 90: From the Horse's Mouth – Equine Assisted Psychotherapy & Learning

Hosts: Dr. Kate Campbell & Katie Lemieux

Guest: Marla Berger, LMHC, Registered Art Therapist, EGALA Advanced Certified

Date: June 16, 2018

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant and informative episode, hosts Dr. Kate Campbell and Katie Lemieux sit down with Marla Berger to explore the fascinating world of equine assisted psychotherapy (EAP) and its applications in private practice. Marla, a dual-certified therapist and equine specialist affiliated with Berger Counseling Services and Tomorrow's Rainbow, shares her professional journey, discusses the unique therapeutic dynamics of working with horses, and offers practical advice for therapists interested in incorporating EAP into their work.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into how horses act as powerful therapeutic partners, the metaphor-rich nature of the work, details about certification, and ways both clients and clinicians can experience the transformative impact of this modality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Equine Assisted Psychotherapy (EAP)

• Differentiating Terminology
  Marla distinguishes "equine assisted psychotherapy" (EAP) from "equine assisted therapy", clarifying that EAP requires a licensed mental health professional and targets deeper mental health goals, while the latter often refers to therapeutic riding.

  "Psychotherapy literally would mean that there is a psychotherapist there, so there's someone providing mental health services."
  — Marla Berger [14:03]

• The EGALA Model
  EAP, particularly via EGALA (Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Association), mandates a treatment team: one mental health professional, one equine specialist, and, of course, the horses.

  "All EGALA certified professionals follow this model...there's always a mental health professional and always an equine specialist. I happen to be both."
  — Marla Berger [03:53]

2. Marla’s Journey with Horses and Therapy

• Personal Backstory
  Marla’s childhood fascination with horses evolved from collecting "briar horses" (plastic models) to volunteering with Special Olympics and becoming certified in multiple horse-assisted modalities.

  "I grew up around [horses] quite a lot…plastic. I grew up in Miami…not a lot of real horses, but I always loved horses since I was a child."
  — Marla Berger [06:37]

• Integration with Tomorrow’s Rainbow
  Tomorrow’s Rainbow is a nonprofit using horses to support grieving children, uniquely blending the Dougy Center model for grief and the EGALA model for EAP.

  "We're the only one in the nation that actually uses the Dougy Center model and combines it with an EGALA model program and does that full time."
  — Marla Berger [04:31]

3. How Equine Assisted Psychotherapy Works in Practice

• Metaphor and Authenticity in Therapy Horses, as herd animals, respond to authentic emotions rather than superficial behaviors, creating natural metaphors for family and personal dynamics. The therapist’s role is often to maintain "clean" language and prompt the client to make connections themselves rather than imposing interpretations.

  "If we're all over the place inside, but we say we're fine on the outside...the horses are not looking at the outside of us. They're actually looking at the ins of us..."
  — Marla Berger [09:35] "We know that clients have solutions to their problems...using that solution focused lens...pointing those things out...so they can come up with what their solution is."
  — Marla Berger [13:19]

• Therapy Setting and Client Experience Sessions often take place outdoors, under trees, or wherever the horses are. The setting itself can be grounding and therapeutic before formal work even begins.

  “Once clients get out of the car, the first step is right into our first paddock...this huge black olive tree, and it’s just so soothing to stand underneath it...”
  — Marla Berger [16:10]

• Dealing with Fear and Resistance Horses of all sizes can bring up metaphorical material—sometimes more than clients expect. Fear responses (even to tiny horses) can reveal deeper layers of resistance and emotional blocks.

  “He is standing there going, ‘I can’t, I can’t. They’re too scary.’ And he’s standing next to our tiniest horse, Feather, who has one eye and is 24 inches at the shoulder.”
  — Marla Berger [16:36]

4. Types of Clients and Issues Addressed

• EAP works for adults and children, individuals and groups, and is especially effective for issues like grief, trauma, substance abuse, family relationships, and situations where clients are "stuck" in traditional therapy.

  “Some clients come to me with really severe trauma issues...I have had clients for two or three years ... typically, three to six months would be a typical thing…”
  — Marla Berger [18:32]

• It’s noted that children in particular can find the farm setting less intimidating and more engaging than traditional office therapy.

  “On their end, they don’t feel like it’s therapy. They’re like, ‘I’m going to the farm. I’m gonna hang out with the animals.’”
  — Katie Lemieux [19:27]

5. Incorporating EAP into Your Practice

• For clinicians wanting to specialize in EAP, certification, such as that offered by EGALA, is essential. It involves prerequisites (horse experience or clinical licensure), a five-day intensive training, and a focus on metaphor and clean language.

  “To become an equine specialist, you have to have about...five years of horse experience...to be a mental health person, you have to be a licensed clinician...”
  — Marla Berger [21:59]

• Non-specialist clinicians can still collaborate with EAP providers, bringing clients to the farm for single or occasional sessions that break therapeutic impasses and catalyze insights through experiential activities.

  “Sometimes therapists come to the farm with their client and we have a team of three...we have a very specific activity for that specific issue that that client might be really struggling with...”
  — Marla Berger [23:57]

6. Logistics, Fees, and Collaboration

• Session Fees: Typically $150 per therapy hour in South Florida, subject to adjustment by region and provider.
• Collaboration Process: Includes pre-session planning, confidentiality agreements, and follow-up. Sessions may be billed as self-pay.

7. Training, Networking, & Community Resources

• Marla hosts monthly free "Breakfast at the Ranch" meet-ups for professionals, with rotating topics and CEUs for various licenses and certifications.

  “Once a month I will be doing Breakfast at the Ranch...free CEUs...It’s a really great time to network and learn.”
  — Marla Berger [29:41]

• National and international organizations for finding programs or certification:
  • EGALA: Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Association
  • PATH International: Professional Association of Therapeutic Horsemanship International

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the power of horses in therapy:
  “If we are all over the place inside, but we say we’re fine on the outside...those horses are not looking at the outside of us. They’re actually looking at the ins of us and seeing, well, there must be something really going on wrong.”
  — Marla Berger [09:35]

• On authenticity and metaphors:
  “That’s the neatest thing about horses...they're really dependent, and they really give us a lot of metaphors that are exactly like our family dynamics.”
  — Marla Berger [09:35]

• On moving from insight to action:
  “A lot of times we have a lot of really, really good insight in therapy, but we can’t quite bridge that gap of trying a new technique or, you know what, that coping skill...being able to give them maybe a stressor, like, hey, I’m going to give you a horse...now all that stress response comes out.”
  — Marla Berger [23:57]

• On the farm as a therapeutic environment:
  “Even just being at the farm can be very therapeutic...life is so busy here...I can imagine it just feels like being away.”
  — Katie Lemieux [15:47]

• On children’s perspective:
  “They don’t feel like it’s therapy. They’re like, ‘I’m going to the farm. I’m gonna hang out with the animals.’ And that’s so awesome.”
  — Katie Lemieux [19:27]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:00] Marla introduces EGALA and distinction between types of equine therapy
• [06:37] Marla’s personal and professional journey into EAP
• [09:35] How horses reflect family dynamics and authenticity in clients
• [14:03] Terminology: Psychotherapy vs. therapy, and referrals
• [16:10] The importance of setting and environment on the farm
• [16:36] Addressing fear and resistance in EAP sessions
• [18:32] Typical course, length, and discharge in EAP
• [21:21] Certification pathways and choosing the right training
• [23:57] When and how to collaborate as an outside therapist
• [28:02] Fees, session structure, and practical logistics
• [29:41] Free CEU/networking events and community connection

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Resources & Further Information

• Tomorrow’s Rainbow: Free grief support groups for children (South Florida)
• Berger Counseling Services: Contact Marla for EAP questions or local resources
• EGALA and PATH International: For training, certification, and finding programs
• Breakfast at the Ranch: Free monthly event for local therapists, with rotating themes and CEUs

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Final Thoughts:
This episode offers an engaging introduction to the world of equine assisted psychotherapy, highlighting its unique blend of experiential therapy, metaphor-rich interactions, and the powerful role horses can play in healing and growth. Whether you’re a clinician curious about incorporating new modalities, or a listener interested in alternative healing approaches, Marla’s expertise and enthusiasm shine through.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Private Practice Startup, where we inspire you from startup to mastery. We chat with entrepreneurs, experts in the mental health and business arenas, and successful private practitioners to give you the tools needed to make your dream practice a reality. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, and so much more. Here are your hosts, Dr. Kate Campbell and Katie Lemieux.

[B]

Hey there, startup nation. Welcome back to another episode of the Private Practice Startup podcast. I am one of your hosts, Katie Lemieux, and I'm here hanging out with my. Well, I was gonna say right hand lady, but you're on my left side, so. My left hand lady.

[A]

Hey, everybody. Good to be back for another episode. It's Kate Campbell.

[B]

So we hope you guys are having a great day today, and we hope you guys enjoyed last week's show. And that was a really fun show. And if you missed it, you're definitely gonna want to listen to that. So why is S and M essential for your business?

[A]

The things you go, hmm. Are you guys wondering about that? S and M? Yeah.

[B]

You might as well go back and listen.

[A]

So it's been a while.

[B]

Like, we kind of feel a little bit rusty. It's April 13th and a Friday the 13th it is.

[A]

You guys, it has been the craziest day. Yep. We had about four podcasts backed, batched back to back, and we had all these crazy tech issues. It's been like a Freaky Friday situation. And so luckily our podcast guest for this episode happens to be a South Floridian, so she drove over to the office. Yes. We have Marla Berger here and we're excited that you're actually here face to face.

[C]

Yes, I'm excited to be here.

[A]

It's a lot of fun. We've actually been like chit chatting and telling stories for the past 30, 40 minutes or so, having so much fun, just kind of decompressing because it's been like a Freaky Friday day. And now we're excited to bring some value to you guys. Yeah.

[B]

And so if you're a first time listener, we want to welcome you and we're rolling out the virtual red carpet, giving you a hug and saying, welcome to the Startup Nation family. We also have a special gift for you, which is our eight cheat sheet. What you can do is you can go over to private practicestartup.com head over to the resources tab and download that. And also too, as you listen to this podcast, there's going to be a lot of great, valuable information. And, you know, we want to invite you to invite a coworker or a colleague who's really wanting to expand their practice or maybe they're starting a practice so they can get a lot of free information to really create the practice of their dreams. So we'd love to invite you to invite your co worker, colleague or friend or even family. My mom's a therapist, so maybe you have maybe your family as therapists as well. So before we get started as well, we want to invite you to hang out with us in the private practice startup Facebook group. Just find us, ask to join, and we'll be hanging out with you, chatting with you there.

[A]

Yeah. So without further ado, let's go ahead and get started. Today's topic is actually going to be about how to use equine assisted therapy. Did I say it right?

[C]

Equine assisted psychotherapy.

[A]

Equine assisted psychotherapy in your private practice. So we have Marla Berger here. She's a licensed mental health counselor, registered art therapist, and EGALA Advanced certified.

[B]

Is it certified psychotherapist?

[A]

I mean, how do you, how do you say it?

[C]

It's actually a gala. Advanced Certified. So EGALA is one of our international models that we have in. In our field. And EGALA really stands for the Equine Assisted Growth and Learning association. And either, an E gala certified mental health person or an Igala certified equine specialist. And together we actually form a team. So you'll never see an IGALA professional who does not have a teammate who is on two legs. We then often have many four legged.

[B]

Teammates who are really.

[A]

That's the best kind.

[C]

Exactly. So we have a lot of co workers, but all IGALA certified professionals follow this model, which is that there's always a mental health professional and there's always an equine specialist. I happen to be both. And so depending on who my co worker is that day who has two legs will depend on what role I take both as either a mental health specialist or as a equine specialist.

[A]

Awesome. Marla is here from Berger Counseling Services. That's her private practice, which you've had since you said 2009 as we were talking earlier. And then you're also affiliated with Tomorrow's Rainbow, which is a really cool organization down here as well.

[C]

Yeah, it's a really amazing collaboration. So Tomorrow's Rainbow is a nonprofit which uses horses therapeutically with grieving children. And so we're the only one in the nation that actually uses the Dougie center model and combines it with an IGALA model program and does that full time. So that's a really unique thing. But while the program isn't being utilized for grief support groups, I actually run my private practice out of there. So it makes it very dynamic because depending on what a person is calling in for, they're either being referred to Tomorrow's Rainbow, which is free grief support groups, or potentially to my private practice.

[B]

And I definitely can't say enough about Tomorrow's Rainbow. I'm a big advocate so much that I actually do a lot of marketing for them and I don't even get paid. I just love to spread the word because they're an amazing place. So if you are in South Florida and you don't know about them and you do work with children or even adults that have a grieving child, I highly recommend checking out Tomorrow's Rainbow. So before we actually get into the topic, we just want to take a quick break for our sponsor. Our sponsor today is Brighter Vision and we love Brighter Vision as well as our coaches and Startup Nation family. Look guys, if you're in private practice, you definitely need a website and you need a user friendly, high converting website that's beautifully designed and that's exactly what Brighter Vision does. They'll build your site completely customary unique for your practice. All the SEO, the images only for $59 a month. So that is amazing. And you know, if you're getting into private practice, you don't often have a big ton of money to spend and you want to spend some on marketing. But having that website is essential. So $59 a month is a steal. And actually if you go through our link, which you can find on our resources tab under our must have resources, you will be able to get your first month for free. So guys, it's a no brainer. You need a website, you might as well go with Brighter Vision. So we want to thank Brighter Vision for being our sponsor today.

[A]

I'm so curious, Marla, for you to share your story about how you got into equine therapy. Did you grow up around horses or what's your story?

[C]

So the answer is kind of, except if you were talking briar horses, which are plastic. I grew up around them quite a lot. I grew up in Miami. And so Miami, Florida does not have a lot of horses. They're pretty far away. But I always loved horses since I was a child. And so when I was in high school, I actually got to volunteer with the Special Olympics, the equestrian division. And I felt like it was such a really good fit. But it was almost, but not quite, what I really wanted to do with my life. And so I became PATH Certified, which is the professional association of therapeutic horsemanship to do therapeutic riding. And I'm like, again, it's not quite what I want to do, but it's almost there. And then Igala, you know, started, which was in 1999, and again, it's really the global standard for equine assisted psychotherapy. PATH International also has some amazing programs as well for equine facilitated psychotherapy. And there's many other different types of certification processes out there. And actually, that is definitely something that I love being able to tell people about, because sometimes people are coaches, but they really want to incorporate horses into their coaching sessions. And so there's some, actually, some really great coaching programs. Some people are really passionate about emdr. And so there's actually some amazing programs that actually incorporate EMDR into equine assisted psychotherapy and on and on and on. And so it's something that I've always loved working with horses, although sometimes they were plastic, but now they're really very real. And we actually get to have a really extensive herd at Samara's Rainbow Ranch. So we have horses, 11 miniature UK Shetland ponies and miniature horses, which include two miniature donkeys, which got married in 2007 by the mayor of Coconut Creek just for the cutie pie factor. And then we have two large horses as well. And so, depending on what we're working on that day, we decide who might be a really good fit for that client and what that issue is.

[A]

It's so awesome. I've been so excited to have you on for the podcast. I came out to Tomorrow's Rainbow and met you maybe in 2012, 2013, with a couple of my team members here, and was just so impressed by the work that you guys do and your passion. It's just such an amazing resource for the community and something that I was. I was considering exploring for myself as a professional as well, but decided to go in other directions. And I just have so much respect for what you guys do. It's so effective. I don't know if our listeners know, but I grew up riding horses as well, and so I love horses. Anything equine, I love. And I grew up riding dressage and competing, and it just. It was. Yeah, it's amazing the connections that humans can have with animals that are so big. And, you know, for some people, they can be so intimidating. So it's. It's amazing. So tell us a little bit more about the experiences that you provide people with equine therapy.

[C]

So what's. What's amazing is that horses are really. They're beautiful, but they're also. They're also part of a family. So they're. They grow up in a herd, and so they're really dependent, and they really give us a lot of metaphors that are exactly like our family dynamics. They're exactly like what's happening in our life. And that's actually the. The neatest thing about horses is that it's not like dogs are cats. And incorporating those into our therapy services, the horses, they're usually at liberty, so they can move away, come closer, and do things that would naturally occur in their. In their lives. And if we are all over the place inside, but we say we're fine on the outside, but those horses are not looking at the outside of us. They're actually looking at the ins of us and seeing, well, there must be something really going on wrong. And I'm not really comfortable being around that. And so until that person is congruent, I'm not okay with being around that person. Or maybe I need to push them out of the way because now they are a threat to my herd. And so the horses will really interact with us in a really natural way. And that gives us a lot of metaphors to use with that client. So maybe there's a client who's petting the horse and petting the horse, and every time their hand touches that horse and that mouth comes open and turns towards that person, and the client keeps saying, look at how much they love me. And we're watching this, and we go, oh. So each time your hand goes up and down, the teeth come out, and then the client can start to make a connection of, well, okay, yeah, maybe this isn't really love. Well, this is kind of like my kids, and it's. Well, you know what? I'm having a really hard time with my kids right now because I. Well, maybe my alcoholism has gotten in the way of my relationship. And this is a real conversation that people start to have. And you'll notice that when I speak about the horses, I don't actually say a lot of words. And so I really use more of that play therapy technique of that kind of clean language where we're not really using a lot of words. And that allows the clients to project all of these amazing metaphors onto what's going on. And in fact, we try and even strip away the word horse or donkey or anything like that, because it really helps them Say, well, that's my mom. Oh, so mom's doing that? Yeah, mom is just pushing my buttons today. Whoa. What's going on with buttons? And that can be the entire conversation. Now we have horses. We know that some people are really, really, really afraid of horses. And, like, that's a real fear. I can. I can understand that. But the easy thing is to say that, well, first of all, we're not getting on their back, so we don't have to worry about falling off. There's not a lot of safety concerns around horses because they're allowed to move away. And so really, horses are really fight or flight animals. They really just want to run away from us, and only when they feel cornered would they have to attack us. And so, truth be told, they're very, very safe because they just don't want to be around us if it's not a safe situation. So they would get out of the way. Usually on the farm, the thing that I'm most worried about is sunburn, stepping on and stepping on an ant, or bizarrely running into, like, a fence. And I'm not really sure why, but sometimes clients just stop looking around their surroundings. But it's just a metaphor, because when are other times you've run into things that are kind of large and obtrusive and you just don't even know them, and they're like, oh, yeah, that is kind of a metaphor for my life.

[A]

I hear that you guys utilize everything and you help the clients to really place the meaning. And that's not something that you offer them. You create the opportunity for them to make the associations and take the meaning, which makes it even more meaningful to them.

[C]

It's really one of those things where we know that the clients have solutions to their problems in their lives, and if we dictate what those solutions are, we know that that's a mismatch pretty much in any kind of therapy. And so really using that solution focused lens of, you know, what is happening in your life, what are the metaphors, what, how are you going to make those changes in your life as you see fit and really just kind of pointing those things out over and over again so that they can come up with what their solution is, it's not our solution. I would probably solve their problems differently, but that's okay. It's not my decision at all.

[A]

How long do you work with clients with the equine assisted psychotherapy approach?

[C]

Yeah, so the reason that I keep saying it's not actually equine assisted therapy that actually usually means therapeutic riding. And so that's a little bit of the industry difference. So psychotherapy literally would mean that there is a psychotherapist there, so there's someone providing mental health services. And so you'll also hear equine facilitated psychotherapy and other different ways.

[A]

And so that was really helpful you just told me that, because I think I've been calling it the wrong thing this whole time.

[C]

A lot of people do. And so actually, when I first talked with people on the phone, I actually have to decide, hey, what is it that you're asking for? Because a lot of people will say, well, I really want to my. Myself or my kid to work with the horses. And so, like, what does that mean? What's actually happening? And sometimes therapeutic riding is the most effective. Sometimes getting back on the back of a horse is the most therapeutic. And because that's not a specialty that I offer at tomorrow's Rainbow Ranch, I would refer them to Healing Hooves Psychotherapy, which is one of our local providers, or Equine Assisted Psychotherapies of South Florida, or vinceremos or some of these other programs that use riding either as a therapeutic riding modality or to provide mental health services, but on the horse's back, because they use some different modalities than I do.

[B]

And as you're talking about, like, the therapeutic aspect of riding horses, I'm just, like, thinking about our little story before we started, and Marlo was talking about going to a networking event, and she's going to go in her riding gear because she'll be off the horse, and hopefully she doesn't smell like poop. And Kate's over here saying, like, if you smell like poop, I think it's so therapeutic.

[A]

I grew up around horses on a farm, and horse poop actually smells good to me. I'm like a weirdo. It smells like home.

[B]

But I think we created it more like it's the whole farm atmosphere, not the horse poop. It just was a reminder.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, in a way, overall, like, even just being at the farm can be very therapeutic. And, you know, especially in South Florida, our life is so busy here. Like, I feel like a farm is like, it's a little nook and cranny that you don't even think would exist. And so in South Florida, because we're just so industrial and on top of each other here. So I can imagine it just feels like being away.

[C]

Absolutely. In fact, most of the time, once. Once clients get out of the car, the first step is right into our first paddock which we call mini tree paddock. And there's this huge black olive tree, and it's just so soothing to stand underneath it and do our check in there. And so when people ask where my office is, I just point to the tree. That's my best office ever. It's also 10 degrees cooler, which is really important in South Florida.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But to kind of get back to kind of why horses, first of all, yes, they're. They're beautiful. They're kind of mysterious in that, but they also really interact with us really well, and they're actually really good indicators to our intent, and so that's really, really helpful. But what's really just so magical about, like, the horses that I get to work with is that we have really large horses, and then we have really small horses. We actually have two horses on the farm that have dwarfism. So one of them is only 24 inches at the shoulder. So when people say that they're scared. And I have had people who've come in and said, I'm really afraid of horses. And sometimes that's a metaphor for other stuff in their life, and sometimes it's about resistance. And so one great story I have is one of the groups that I've worked with a lot are substance abuse clients. And I had a bunch of young guys out one one day. They were all young adults, and, you know, guys about 6 foot 5, very heavily muscled, tattoos all over the place, and always bragged about how many times he had been shot and stabbed and all of these other very, like, rough things. And he is standing there going, I can't, I can't. They're too scary. And he's standing next to our tiniest horse feather, who has one eye and is 24 inches at the shoulder. So he barely did not even come up to his knee. And so it was really. We were able to process a little lot more about, well, resistance to even doing anything that's uncomfortable, knowing that probably he wasn't truly uncomfortable. And we kind of think so. It's kind of interesting. So you talk about being shot and stabbed, and yet something that's this small is really uncomfortable for you. And so we got to really explore a lot of that. That junk that he had been kind of holding on to as a way to not really do any real work.

[B]

Very interesting.

[A]

I know I had asked before, how often do people come and how long do you see them? Because I know you mentioned you use more of a solution, focused approach. I was just curious how that works with.

[C]

So depends really on what's going on. And so some clients come to me with really severe trauma issues and a lot of abuse, including sexual abuse. And, well, those clients would theoretically take a longer time. And so I have had clients for two or three years, and that is not my preference. My preference is, let's come in, let's work on our issues, and let's leave in a happy manner, you know. And so typically, three to six months would be a typical thing where we would see each other weekly and then start titrating down into, you know, twice a month and once a month. And then we're just going to check in in three months and then we're going to say goodbye is usually how I do that. And a lot of times I'm working with children. And so that slow or discharge process is much more appropriate because it's hard for them to leave. They don't really want to leave the horses, of course. So that termination process is really difficult to experience. Explain.

[B]

I mean, on our end, we know that it's so therapeutic. On their end, they don't feel like it's therapy. They're like, I'm going to the farm.

[C]

I'm gonna hang out with the animals.

[B]

And like, that's so awesome.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To be able to offer that, you know, it's amazing.

[A]

Like you were saying earlier, you want. You step out and it's already therapeutic. And you haven't even done any work yet just because you're on the farm.

[C]

Absolutely. And I have so many times where I'm not, actually, because I'm a registered therapist and I do San Tray therapy and I do play therapy techniques. A lot of times we're not even incorporating the horses. And what's hysterical is how often the horses incorporate themselves into our sessions just because we're still on the farm. And I remember one time my kiddo came in, she had a bruise on her foot, and so she couldn't wear boots or shoes that were appropriate to working with the horses. So we're sitting there doing some artwork about anger and three equine walk in, and one of them intruded a lot. One of them started actually nipping me because we were using pasta that was colored so he thought maybe I could eat that. And so he was nipping me to try and get the pasta. And then the last one actually made this huge crash and, like, threw over a bucket, and all the equine then left. And so we were able to process actually who those were in her life, and they were actually her dad and her brothers. And so I. They weren't supposed to be there, but they sure intruded themselves. And we were able to process a lot that day. Interesting.

[A]

I got goosebumps, like, during several of your stories because I just. The horses are so near and dear to my heart, and I could just visualize the farm and everything and how it looks and how powerful that's gotta be.

[C]

It is so much fun.

[B]

And I'm sure a lot of clinicians are wondering that are in private practice. Either some clinicians want to do the whole gala and do that, and that's great. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about that. And then for the clinicians who are like, no, I don't really want to do that, but I would love to incorporate equine assisted psychotherapy into my practice. How can they do both?

[C]

Yeah. So some people really are kind of all in, like me, and they really want to do this as their life work. And so that's great. And so one of the things that I love to be able to do is to talk with people about maybe what's a good fit for you for your personality, and then kind of give them. What is that model that would probably more closely follow who they are, where they are, you know, in their therapy practice and just kind of as a clinician, who are they? And then. And then they can go and get. Get certified through that model. I always believe that we need to be able to be certified by something and have a real standard of practice.

[B]

And what does the certification process entail?

[C]

For Igala? There's actually a webinar that you attend to kind of understand who is supposed to kind of or who is. Who should be interested in becoming this, because we want people to understand fully what is the process. And so sometimes, you know, people go in going, oh, well, I have no horse experience, and I'm not a therapist, but I really want to do egalimado. Well, actually, then you would not really qualify to do e Gallo model, because to become an equine specialist, you have to have about, I think, five or 6,000 hours. So it's about five years of horse experience. Yeah, I think it's five years of horse experience, something like 6,000 hours. And then to be a mental health person, you have to be a licensed clinician. You can't be a bachelor's level or anything like that. And so, you know, so by taking that webinar, they actually understand, oh, this is what I need to grow towards. Oh, okay. Then that's where I'm gonna Go. Or maybe they want to volunteer or become like someone else at that type of program and still take the training. So they can still take the training, but they just wouldn't be able to do the work. The training is a five day training. I actually just went to one in Miami in January and it was absolutely amazing. It really focuses on metaphor and clean language approach where we really strip away all of our assumptions. In fact, that's one of the core values of Egala is our apostrophe S, which is about our countertransference and our stuff and really saying, like, what's happening right now? What is it that is going on and how am I supposed to react and interact now? And it's not based on, well, I'm uncomfortable. Well, I think the client needs help. It's about what's actually happening. And we really look at things very behaviorally. But again, there's a lot of different types of models.

[B]

And then so for clinicians that are in private practice that wants to maybe work with a yellow specialist or incorporate this, like, who's a good fit, like what type of client? And then how would they do that?

[C]

Absolutely. And so sometimes I'll actually have therapists come to the farm with their client and we actually then have a team of three, the equine specialist, myself, and then that other therapist. And what we do is we have a very specific activity that we would create that day for that specific issue that that client might be really struggling with. And the clinician is saying they're just not quite grasping what are the metaphors that are going on or how to proceed with this issue. A lot of times we have a lot of really, really good insight in therapy, but we can't quite bridge that gap of trying a new technique or you know what, that coping skill. I could do it great in therapy, but I can't do it under stressful situations. And so being able to give them maybe a stressor, like, hey, I'm going to give you a horse. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but you're going to somehow get the horse from A to B without touching the horse. Go. And all of a sudden all that stress response comes out. But meanwhile it's a very low, like there's no stakes here. If you can't get the horse from A to B, you're going to go home and you're going to be okay with your day. But the fact is that our body reacts as if it's a very stressful situation. Okay. And now we can go and use our stress coping skills that we wanted to use during stressful situations, but we hadn't been able to really try. And then their therapist is there to actually be able to initiate that. And so we've had therapists who say, you know what, My client's really stuck. Let's get them. Let's get them unstuck so that I can have metaphor after metaphor after metaphor to process for the next six months with them from one session at the farm, which is really, really helpful.

[B]

Yeah. As you talk, I'm like thinking about one of my couples that I've been seeing, like, on and off for two years. And I see that she's been like, stuck or resistant to doing the work. And it's like, wow, you bring them to the farm for one session and you could probably really, like, uncover what that is. And it's kind of like you ask, as a therapist, you might be a little bit directive, you might suggest, and like, still the stuff doesn't connect, isn't forthcoming. You know, whether they understand or know or not. It just seems like there's a block there. And I could just imagine how great it is to be able to allow the horses to do.

[A]

Help you do the work.

[B]

So if a therapist is wanting to work with an egal specialist and equine assisted psychotherapy or therapist, and they were to reach out, what would. What can they expect? Like, tell me about that.

[C]

Right. So very similar to any type of collaboration. Pretty much what you're going to want to do is probably sign some, you know, confidentiality forms that, yes, I can release information about my client. And then really, it's going to be a conversation, hey, this is the situation that I'm concerned about. Could we create an activity around this situation? And so sometimes the situations very similar to anything in therapy, you know, maybe it's a relational issue. We had an amazing event in January where we had all of these couples comes and we come to the farm and we talked about the big three. We had talked about children, sex and money. And so we created three different activities that were about children, sex and money. And so being able to process those things so that then their therapist could go back and go, okay, so this is what came out at the farm. How does that actually look like in your real life? And so they were then able to kind of use all of those metaphors in the rest of their services. And so coming up with that idea, then coming out to the farm. Now, typically, as people know, at least in the United States, we can't double bill for things. And so typically we understand that that therapist might be doing that one hour service, maybe pro bono, but the goal would be I am getting value from that because when I go back to my office with this client, we are going to be able to talk and work and see, see how are things going to change, how are they going to change? And so obviously if it's a self pay client, that would be, that would be slightly different.

[B]

Yeah. And what can a therapist expect like in additional fees and stuff like that?

[C]

So I charge $150 for a therapy hour. And so typically then what we would do is they would negotiate with that, with that equine assisted psychotherapy specialist. That would be typical for Florida. It is different in other parts of the country. So really, you know, coming up with what is your fee? Is there going to be a fee for that, that discussion beforehand? I don't. To me, I think that there's, there's a lot of value in having a 15, 20 minute discussion ahead of time. And then there's a therapy hour, which is typically that 50 minutes, 50 minute hour. Of course, that could be negotiated longer or shorter. That couple's retreat was actually all day. So that was about six hours of really intensive couples work, which is really, really neat. So that was a slightly different.

[B]

That makes me excited. And you and I have talked about that too before. That's awesome.

[C]

And so there are some industry standards, but again, depending on where you are, the more rural you are, again, therapy costs are less usually there. So again that would scale up or down depending on where you are. If you're in the middle of New York, you're going to be spending a lot more money than $150 an hour. But there are, there are amazing programs almost everywhere in the world. And so that's something to definitely look at. Both PATH International and Egala are international.

[B]

Also PATH International and Egala.

[A]

We'll put those links in the show notes.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. So thank you so much for being here, Marla. It's so interesting to hear about all of this and I'm sure our listeners are really enjoying the conversation. You also had a giveaway for the local listeners that we have down here in South Florida. So would you share what that is?

[C]

Absolutely. So once a month I will be doing breakfast at the ranch and each month we'll have a different topic. Free CEUs for LMHCs, LMFTs, LCSWs and EGALA and PATH certified professionals. And so it's a really great Time to network and learn. This month is April 23rd from 9 to 11 at Tomorrow's Rainbow Ranch, and the subject will be addiction and substance abuse. And next month in May, we'll be building your private practice. Each month will be a little bit different and so we hope to have Katie out in May.

[B]

Oh, fantastic. It's funny because we had a long time ago talked about doing a private practice workshop for a day, but like incorporating horses to help therapists identify their blocks in private practice. So I guess we'll have to talk about that and we'll have to plan for like a warm, cooler month. Yes, it's definitely getting November. So for those of you who are local and are listening and if you find that you'd love to go check out the ranch, meet Marla, who's fabulous. Abby's fabulous too. They can also contact you at BurgerCounseling Services.

[C]

And if you're ever wondering, wherever you are in the world, how can I incorporate horses, please feel free to reach out because I'm more than happy to link you with what your local resources would be.

[B]

Awesome. Well, it's a pleasure having you here. I mean, you and I have known each other for many years and continue to connect and I think you guys are fabulous and the work that you do. So thank you so much for sharing your passion, your specialty. And we wanted to thank you, Startup Nation for hanging out with us yet on another awesome episode. So next week you are going to meet Chorus of Thera Chat, which is an awesome homework app. And so since he and I have talked, I've been like really thinking about this importance of accountability and helping their clients really reach their goals. And so he's going to talk about three tips to get your clients to be better at doing their homework. So we'll talk about that next week. And so don't forget to check out the show notes page for all the tips, resources and giveaways we talked about in today's show. And hey, you know, if you're feeling like, I really love these podcasts, they're amazing, I want to share how I feel about them. Go ahead and feel free to give us a review on itunes. That just really helps us continue to spread the word. So Startup Nation, have an amazing, awesome day, evening weekend wherever you are at. And we look forward to continuing to inspire you from Startup to mastery.

[A]

See you next time. Thanks for joining us on the private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

[C]

Sa.