Up Close and Personal with Tiffany McLain

Summary

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Detailed Summary: Private Practice Startup Podcast

Episode: Up Close and Personal with Tiffany McLain

Hosts: Dr. Kate Campbell & Katie Lemieux
Guest: Tiffany McLain
Release Date: November 13, 2019

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Episode Overview

This episode features an “Up Close and Personal” conversation with therapist and money mindset coach Tiffany McLain. The focus is on Tiffany’s personal journey—her upbringing, how it shaped her clinical and business philosophy, her work with taboo topics like race and money, her experience of motherhood, and the challenges of boundaries and saying no. The discussion balances depth and humor, offering listeners insight into both Tiffany’s story and broader issues in private practice.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. Tiffany’s Family and Upbringing (03:37–06:48)

• Raised in Bremerton, Washington, a small military town outside Seattle.
• Biracial background (Black father, white mother) in a predominantly white community; this dynamic shaped her early experiences and sense of identity.
• Family discussions of race were minimal; parents had different outlooks:
  • “Dad would say, ‘You guys are black. Never forget it. The world’s going to see you as black, so you’re black.’ My mom would say, ‘What about me, Rufus? Where would I fit in?’” — Tiffany (04:52)
• Early exposure to “elephants in the room,” such as race and class, fed her later passion for addressing taboo topics.

2. Pathway to Becoming a Therapist (06:48–11:49)

• Visualization of her path: Early desire to help at-risk youth, becoming a camp counselor for foster kids at 17.
• Moved to LA initially to pursue acting, influenced by stereotypes about Black success:
  • “In my small town, that’s where black folks saw themselves: sports or entertainers.” — Tiffany (06:58)
• Continued working with youth; therapy entered her life during a dissociative period in LA.
• Influence of a pivotal therapist:
  • “There are people in the world whose goal is to talk about the unspoken things—the unconscious things.” — Tiffany (09:06)
• Realization: Many life decisions before age 32 were unconscious; therapy and psychoanalytic training helped her gain greater intentionality.

3. Money, Taboo Topics, and Consciousness (10:45–11:49)

• Specializes in helping therapists confront their money issues.
• Money as a symbol for what we’re unconscious about:
  • “So many of us go unconscious around money, but it’s a symbol of ways we’re unconscious in all areas of our lives.” — Tiffany (10:49)
• Ongoing commitment to self-discovery through psychoanalysis:
  • “Every week my mind is constantly being blown… it’s amazing.” — Tiffany (11:40)

4. Personal Fears, Insecurities, and Living Intentionally (14:01–16:42)

• Main fears:
  • Fear of not realizing unconscious patterns before it’s too late.
  • “I’m afraid of the things I don’t know yet that are having a profound impact on my behavior. So I know there are things that I’m still—I’m not allowed to know for some reason—and those are keeping me paralyzed.” — Tiffany (14:13)
• Hosts discuss with Tiffany the idea of trusting the process and reframing fear as excitement.
• Tiffany emphasizes desire to live intentionally and avoid being “asleep” to her own life.

5. Motherhood & Impact on Professional Identity (16:43–19:52)

• Became a mother at age 39; discusses ambivalence about parenthood due to life circumstances.
• Parenting as an “exciting puzzle” of balancing business growth and child-rearing.
• Motherhood catalyzed deeper clinical work and forced greater clarity in prioritizing:
  • “It’s really pushing me to say no. I have to say no. I have no choice but to say no.” — Tiffany (19:40)

6. On Boundaries and Saying “No” (19:52–25:25)

• Struggles with people-pleasing and the cultural/familial expectations to serve and say yes.
• Lessons about resentment and the necessity of intentional boundaries, discussed by both Tiffany and hosts.
• “Women aren’t even allowed to know what they want. Your job is simply to serve and say yes.” — Tiffany (24:13)
• Therapy has helped Tiffany learn to pause and reflect before agreeing to requests.

7. Embarrassing & Humanizing Therapist Moments (25:25–27:37)

• Tiffany shares about accidentally calling clients by the wrong name—an experience most therapists can relate to.
• The hosts recall their own funny and cringe-worthy therapy mishaps, creating a relatable, warm conversation.

8. Failures and Lessons in Business (27:37–29:45)

• Biggest failures: Poor hiring decisions and saying yes to projects misaligned with her true calling (“Lean and Make Bank” program).
• Importance of sticking to your “one thing”:
  • “Every time I do something outside of my one choice, I fail at that… Even if it goes well, it doesn’t work out ultimately.” — Tiffany (28:34)
• Discussion of boundary-setting in business, giving practical scripts and anecdotes from their own journeys.

9. Money, Integrity, and Partner Dynamics (29:45–36:04)

• Common concern among therapists: lack of alignment with partner on finances.
• Tiffany challenges the idea of waiting for partner buy-in before making business changes:
  • “Waiting around for a partner to change so that you can change… that keeps you small.” — Tiffany (30:46)
• Pet peeve: Excuses for why “it works for others, but not for me”—the “special snowflake” fallacy.
• Hosts’ coaching tips for helping clients deal with the partner-objection.

10. Financial Integrity and Taking Responsibility (35:24–36:07)

• Tiffany’s program challenges students to confront where they are “out of financial integrity”—for example, undercharging while accruing debt.
• Story of facilitating group transparency and accountability.

11. Lightning Round: Personality & Fun (40:25–44:12)

• Unique hobby: Violin (though currently on hiatus).
• Pets: One cat (Lotus); 17-year-old cat Toby recently passed away.
• Style: Would never wear khakis or cargo pants; favorite clothing is her dad’s old “I’d rather be fishing” t-shirt.
• Spirit animal: Stallion (“also a male, which is interesting”).
• Junk food: Honey mustard kettle chips, popcorn.
• Comfort item: Childhood teddy bear (“Fuzzy,” one-eyed, from a racist grandma—now the subject of therapy discussion).
• Best theme party: Underwear party in college (with an amusing anecdote about missing the “sexy” memo).
• Dream dinner guest: Obama

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On talking about the unspoken:
  "All of those things, from the get-go, I have been wanting to speak about the things that are weighing heavily in the room, but people are not talking about." — Tiffany (05:04)
• On boundaries and resentment:
  "If I'm resentful, then that's going to energetically come out on you and it's not going to honor me. My mom has this great saying that when we do what's right for ourselves, we automatically do what's right for others." — Katie Lemieux (21:46)
• On partnership and money decisions:
  "I really disabuse people of that notion that your partner has to be on board in order for you to make changes in your business and your life." — Tiffany (30:26)
• On excuses and financial integrity:
  "When people say 'That person was able to accomplish it, but I can't because I'm a special snowflake,' that just tears me apart." — Tiffany (37:30)
• On being energized by passion:
  "When I'm with people who I like, I have energy… I love this—talking about being in your lane, doing the thing that excites you." — Tiffany (39:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tiffany’s childhood & family: 03:37–06:48
• Therapy career path: 06:58–11:49
• Money & consciousness work: 10:45–11:49
• Fear, intentions, and the unknown: 14:01–16:42
• Motherhood & professional impact: 16:43–19:52
• Boundaries & resentment: 19:52–25:25
• Embarrassing therapist moments: 25:25–27:37
• Business failures & lessons: 27:37–29:45
• Money, partners, and integrity: 29:45–36:07
• Lightning round fun: 40:25–44:12

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Episode Tone and Language

Conversational, vulnerable, and vibrant; Tiffany combines humor and depth, encouraging honest talk about issues that are usually hidden (money, boundaries, family). The hosts keep the energy high, share their own experiences, and create a supportive atmosphere.

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Final Takeaways

• Tiffany’s openness about her journey, from racial identity and unconscious motivations to money mindset and motherhood, offers listeners both inspiration and practical wisdom.
• Emphasis on boundaries, financial integrity, and conscious living is woven through personal and professional stories.
• The importance of confronting personal blind spots—regardless of fear—echoes throughout the conversation.
• The playful lightning round uncovers Tiffany’s quirky side, making for a well-rounded and engaging episode.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Private Practice Startup podcast where we help ambitious private practitioners across the globe to brand themselves and grow their dream practices. We chat with successful private practitioners, business coaches and marketing experts, bringing you tons of practice building Ninja tips. Visit privatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and our signature marketing E course. Here are your co hosts, Dr. Kate Campbell and Katie Lemieux. Hey there startup ninj. Hey nation. Welcome back to the fourth episode in the Up Close and Personal podcast series. We are really hoping that you are enjoying this. I'm getting chills as I'm saying that. Probably because we have like some of the most amazing people just sharing about themselves. And today we have another awesome and amazing person. We're super excited. I know she's like double shot espresso no matter what time of the day. I don't think I've ever experienced her as like, hello, I need caffeine. No, she is like the caffeinated queen. So we're really excited to announce that Tiffany McLean is going to be your up Close and personal podcast person today. But before we get started, we hope that you guys enjoyed yesterday's Up Close and Personal with Katie Reed. What a fan favorite. I mean, we talked about her time in Taos and the spiritual folks that she went with and her vision quest. That was an amazing story to hear. She also shout about Harvey Weinstein. I know you guys were asking about that and her time in Hollywood. So make sure you listen to her podcast. And if you're brand new to us in Startup Nation, we are welcoming you with open arms and we wanted to say what a great time to choose to listen to our podcast. And we hope that you will be around for years after really enjoying our podcast. We have about over 170 podcasts recorded all about private practice and really helping you guys. But we also have a special gift for you and that is our A to Z cheat sheet. The essentials for building and growing your dream practice. You can grab that by heading over to private practices startup.com, head over to the resources tab and there you will see it. You will see the A to Z cheat sheet. Go ahead and download that. And that includes five days of supportive practice building emails. The idea is not just to read them, folks. The idea is to take action so we can help you from afar. And that will be your A to Z teaching with the practice building emails. So without further ado, Tiffany is podcasting from her very so elaborate, sophisticated podcast room, AKA the bathroom. Sometimes you just gotta make do with what you have, right?

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, I think the bathroom is wonderful. The sound is not okay, but there's not street noise, so I think we're gonna make it. There's not gonna be any toilet flushing either. I.

[A]

Well, let's see. I think this does go on our list of places that people have podcasts, and we haven't had a bathroom podcast yet, but we have not.

[C]

We've had a vault. We've had closets. We've had, like, all sorts of crazy places, not a bathroom. So you're on the list.

[B]

Good stuff. So welcome.

[A]

We are excited to have you.

[B]

Thank you. I'm a little excited to be here, but also a little nervous because I don't tend to talk about myself too much except in the purpose of serving the audience. So if there's a story that's like, oh, this will be helpful for the audience, I'll share it. But just like, let's talk to you, Tiffany, for the sake of you. I'm like, oh, man, I don't know. I haven't met Harvey Weinstein. I don't have any gurus in Tallahassee or wherever Kenny was. It's amazing. House.

[C]

House.

[B]

Almost like Tallahassee.

[C]

Well, think about it this way, Tiffany, because all these questions are asked from Startup Nation, so you're still serving the audience with all the personal questions. So there you have it.

[B]

Thank you. Got it. That helps.

[A]

I like that. Kay. That was a good reframe there.

[C]

Yeah. Well, let's start off by you sharing the story of you. Tell us what it was like, grow up as Tiffany and a little bit about your family, where you're from, all that good stuff.

[B]

Okay, so I have a picture. That's an interesting question that I show folks sometimes. It's a huge picture of my family. So I grew up in a small town called Bremerton, Washington, outside of Seattle. If you've ever been to Seattle, you can catch the ferries and go across the way. Not to the island, to the peninsula. It's a small military town. So I grew up with both my parents, my brother, but I also have four half siblings who are eight to 20 years older than me. So I also grew up with nieces and nephews, all of whom were around my age. We were in the woods, playing around, running crazy. Not, you know, it was just like, kids are doing whatever they're gonna do, building forts, living in the world. Primarily a white town. I'm biracial for folks who can't see me or don't know, but Dad's black, mom's white. But I grew up surrounded by white folks, so there weren't too many people of color. So it was really like, what are we even doing in this world? I have one brother who's biracial. All the rest of my siblings are white. So even starting with race and class, that's a big part of my story, even from the beginning.

[A]

Very interesting. Tell us a little bit about that.

[B]

I can see there is a picture. I don't even know if I have this picture still. I think I was in fourth grade and my Halloween costume was a jester, and half my costume was black and half my costume was white. And I had this whole elementary school time where I was like, doing this cool thing of wearing black clothes and white clothes. So race was not talked about in my family too much, except in some strange kind of. Dad would say, you guys are black. Never forget it. The world's gonna see you as black, so you're black. And my mom would say, what about me, Rufus? What would I fit in? And that was the most race was talked about. So I think there was a lot I was trying to understand about the unspoken things that were happening around me, which really informed why I became a therapist and really informed why I go into this money stuff. Because that's the elephant in the room that is impacting people's behavior, but nobody's talking about it. So all of those things, from the get go, I have been wanting to speak about the things that are weighing heavily in the room, but people are not talking about. So I imagine race and class were a huge part of that desire.

[C]

All the taboo topics. And I'm curious, what does your family think about you talking about all these taboo topics so openly?

[B]

That's a good question. They listen to these podcasts, so I'm also like, okay, I'm listening to the podcast. They expect it. So my older siblings are like, oh, Tiffany is just crazy. Move to San Francisco. Me and my brother both moved to San Francisco. You guys are the crazy ones. So in one way, they expect it. My parents are proud. They're excited by what I do. The other part of my family, they're also, I think, proud, but also they're very religious too. I kind of flew that coop. And so there's both a pride, but also like, oh, she's a weirdo. And so I'm definitely labeled as a weirdo. I know that's gonna be the case. So I think the family always kind of watches, like, what is she gonna do next? Tiffany what is she gonna do next?

[A]

So share with us. Was there a very, like, pinnacle time where you're like, this is why I want to be a therapist, or did your upbringing really just overall influence getting into therapy?

[B]

You guys are asking some great questions already. Holy smokes. I think I always liked working with kids, for example, so I worked with. I remember going to a camp when I was 18 that was Foster kids. This is not going to be exciting, folks, by the way. This is going to be a little. I'm trying to keep exciting, but there's going to be some depth here. So I went to a camp where foster kids, where I was 18 years old, I was 17 actually, and I was too young to even be a camp counselor. But I begged, let me be a camp counselor to these foster kids. I want to help at risk youth. I got in. I did that for two years. It was mind blowing. Then I moved to LA with some idea of being an actor. That's kookaburra, I can say now, but I think even, you know, coming back to that idea of, you know, again, it's terrible. But in my mind, black folks could either play sports or be entertainers like that. Those are the options. In my small town, that's where black folks saw themselves. So I was a swimmer in high school. Three of my teammates have been Olympic champions. So I was a high end. They were much better than me, but those were. The folks competed in swimming. There were also the messages, Black people aren't good at swimming. So I had all these, like, go be a swimmer, but black people don't swim. Just constant, you know, constant infusion of these thoughts. So I went to LA to become an actor. I'd never acted, but I ended up again working with kids. So I constantly was working with kids doing tutoring or something with at risk youth that was. Was very passionate about that. When I was in la, I ended up seeing a therapist. There I was in a fugue. I was pretty dissociated throughout my twenties. Coming out of a very small town, family structure where there was traumas that went unspoken about, and then moved off to la. I'd never been in a big town. I came from a very conservative Christian family. So now I'm in la. What is happening? I went to this therapist. I think I went to her for two years and I don't know what she thought of me. I sometimes think about contacting her and being like, can you tell me what was happening in my mind at the time? But I had some experience of like, oh, there Are people in the world whose goal is to talk about the unspoken things, the unconscious things. There are things happening in human behavior. There are things that can be understood and made sense of, that can be thought about, and it's okay to do that. So I think that helped me first have an idea of like, oh, there's. There are unconscious forces acting on my behavior that come from this family of origin. There are ways to understand people outside of anything I had imagined. So I went to her, got out of that, and then. I don't know exactly. This is speaking to the dissociated part. I was in la. My brother came to visit me one time, and he said, tiffany, what are you doing messing around down here? You need to go to grad school. That's what he said. And I was like, that's right, I do. I'm gonna become a therapist. So it was this weird kind of. Before gaining consciousness myself, my life was a series of kind of bursts of action. Oh. Oh. That I imagine were brewing unconsciously, but they were not things I could think about logically and take action on. So the therapy was, like, all kinds of factors leading me to becoming a therapist, but none of them were thoughtful at the time. Now I'm very intentional in my life. Do a lot of work to stay conscious, but up through about 32 years old, unconscious.

[A]

Very interesting. And I love how you. It almost sounds like there was this part that you just became, like, liberated. Like, you kind of always knew and you were aware, but no one was talking about it. So there was an ability to talk about it. And then you go to this therapist, and it's like, wow, we can talk about these things. And is that really the driving force behind your practice and what you do today?

[B]

Those are great questions. All in your questions, you guys. Definitely this idea of, holy mackerel, we are unconscious to forces acting against us or acting on us. I'll say money is a big so for folks who don't know. I do a lot of work with therapists around money. Money is a really interesting way to see what are we doing unconsciously. So many of us go unconscious around money, but it's a symbol of ways we're unconscious in all other areas of our lives. So I am very excited about coming to know what's true, what can't be spoken, and let's find a way to talk about it, because if we're not talking about it, it's still having an impact on us. And at least if we can talk about it, we can make a conscious choice. So I think all of those factors led me to become a therapist. And then as I've gone on my own therapy journey, both grad school post masters, I went to a psychoanalytic postmaster's program and then my own therapy. I go twice a week to an analyst. Literally my mind is constantly being blown every week and I'm like how is my mind still being blown this many years into it? It's amazing.

[A]

That is amazing. I love you sharing your story. This is so exciting.

[C]

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[A]

One of the things that I find is interesting Tiffany is you're really talking a lot about, you know, the things that aren't said and things that people fear. So we're curious as what are some of your own fears and insecurities that is Startup Nation.

[B]

Why. Why are you gonna put on fun like this? Let me think about it. I had a kid for folks who don't know, about seven months ago. And so becoming aware, even in the postpartum period of life and death, life and death, having kids brings that stuff to the fore. Those are things I already thought about and I talk about with my program. You know, I talk about our mortality. So there are ways I wrestle always with, we're gonna die at the end of this, we're gonna die. Am I gonna be able to become conscious enough and intentional enough to do the things I want to do, build the communities I want to build, have the experiences I want to experience before I don't have a chance to do them anymore. So I don't know if that means I'm afraid of death, but I certainly am afraid of not I'm afraid of. I guess this comes exactly to what we're talking about. I'm afraid of the things I don't know yet that are having a profound impact on my behavior. So I know there are things that I'm still. I'm not allowed to know for some reason, and those are keeping me paralyzed in certain aspects of my business and my personal life. That scares me. That's.

[A]

Yeah, that's pretty profound and a really cool way to answer that. And as I hear you talking, like, sometimes I believe, like when we're hearing information, like sometimes when we get really, like, foggy or fuzzy, like I'm experiencing that right now. Right. It's kind of like there's something to be said here, but it's so much at the same time, like my mind can't comprehend and. And how I understand how you say that for myself is I'm always looking at life, like when I'm in a struggle or when I think something is bad or negative, you know, I say to myself, wow, there's something really cool at play here. I just don't know what it is yet. And I don't need to know.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I really just need to trust the process. And it's friggin hard, I'll tell you that.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Yes. I really love that. That idea that what I hear you saying is, like, when you get fuzzy or foggy, you're like, oh, there's something I don't know about yet here something I have to discover. There's a lesson to be learned that is a way to take the fear and turn it into an excitement. The reframe. I hear you saying in that.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And I really. The way that you also. Language. I really hear that you're really up to living a purpose driven life. That's really important. Very intentional. Very. Getting clear and stepping forward and taking action.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I have a fear of areas in my life in which I'm still asleep and I don't know that I am. That's what I'm afraid of.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah, very interesting answer to the question. And I'm also curious about how your journey of becoming a mom has impacted things both personally for you and then professionally with your coaching that you do and then also with your practice as well.

[B]

Great. And sloths. I'm afraid of sloths. Let's be real. They crawl after you forever. Becoming a mom, I was really excited. I had my 39th birthday a couple weeks ago and so I'm on the later end of motherhood or parenthood. I was ambivalent about becoming a parent. I'm like, my life is great. I don't know. If I had done all of the things I'm doing now 10 years ago, I definitely would be a parent. But because everything kind of started late in life, I feel like, ugh, can I do this? So number one, taking the jump to do it when I was like, I don't know. I know it's going to have an impact on my professional identity and goals. Do I want to do that? Becoming a parent has been the most awesome thing ever. I had no idea. I'm like, oh, if I'd known. I'm glad I. Because I want the kid I have, but man, I find it fascinating. So one of the things I was excited about, I couldn't get excited about the kid before he was here because I couldn't even comprehend what that would be. But I was excited about the math puzzle of how am I going to be a parent and be the kind of parent I want to be and keep my business going and grow my business. So that has been a puzzle that's been exciting for me to try to figure out and solve in terms of my online business. Hey, Tiffany, in terms of my private practice, that's a really good question. I thought that I would have foggy mom brain, whatever they call it, but I don't know what you have it. So I wondered how is that going to impact brain fog?

[C]

Yes. I have it as we speak. Thank you.

[B]

I was like, you know, that Brady Fog stuff. So I also clearly am still struggling with it.

[A]

I don't have that.

[B]

Yeah. Although I know you do because you've been working hard, too. Also, I'll tell the audience, for the past three weeks, the kiddo has been getting up every two hours. So I've been getting up. So I'm still in the. Every two hours of the night. I'm awake for 20 minutes or so. It's crazy, right?

[C]

So rough.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know how we even functioning with my practice. It's actually allowed me to, in conjunction with this therapist that I found. So this one I'm going to twice a week. I've been going to her for maybe, I don't know, let's say eight months to a year. She is so on point that it's actually having a kid. And the emotions that come with that, along with her helping me think, has really allowed my clinical work to go to a next level. That's been fantastic. But in terms of my online business, really trying to understand how to prioritize, say what to say yes to, what to say no to. And I keep saying yes to things, and I'm like, I literally. I literally don't have anywhere to put this thing. So it's really pushing me to say no. I have to say no. I have no choice but to say no. So that's both a struggle because I want to say yes, and it's also a reality check.

[A]

I'm so curious, because you're talking about the unconscious things that you don't know yet that are having an impact on your behavior. I'm wondering what's going to be revealed to you through this process of wanting to say yes and being forced really to say no. That's going to be interesting.

[B]

You have ideas? Anything come to mind?

[A]

I don't know, but I'm just relating to my own stories. And I remember. I remember. So it was, God, I don't even know how many years ago now, but I went. I've done many, many different types of body of work. And I was in Landmark, so for those of, you know, Landmark. And I was in a program called Self Discovery, Life Mastery, and it was a program that lasted about four months. It was right during the holidays. And they kept saying, so we had to create this project, create a team, release the project to the team and step back from it. Right. And they would say, it's not about the project, but yet we had to create a project. And I'M a rule follower. So I'm creating the project. I gotta create the project. So I created the project because that's what I'm supposed to do.

[C]

I'm supposed to follow the rules.

[A]

This is what's supposed to happen. I'm creating the project. And there's people, you know in the program that are just, I don't know, half assing it, not doing it, acting like they're doing it, but they're really not. And I was so pissed off at them. So here I created this most amazing project called beyond the Looking Glass. And it was a project where I took children who were chronically or terminally ill and their families. And I paired them each with a photographer, and photographers all donated their time and they created these beautiful books for the families. And my thought was like, God forbid, if they pass away, they have this beautiful memory of this book. And if not, what a cool way to go back and say this was a chapter in my life. And then I found a studio, an art studio, where they displayed that. All the photographers came, the families came, we raised money, and it was this amazing thing, but I couldn't appreciate it because I just kept saying yes and doing what I was supposed to do. And all this resentment built for me around that. And that was like a really pinnacle moment for me where I was like, the resentment, the yes person, like, she finally kind of faded away. And I'm really clear. And sometimes even now, people are really like, jim, Katie, you're really harsh with your boundaries.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you know what? If I'm resentful, then that's going to energetically come out on you and it's not going to honor me. My mom has this great saying that when we do what's right for ourselves, we automatically do what's right for others. Because if I show up at your party and I'm tired and I'm irritable and I'm cranky, then that's who's in the room. And you're going to be like, what's wrong with Kati? I probably should have stayed home and went to bed. So that was a huge lesson for me. So I'm just, you know, that's what I'm relating it to. Might not be that same for you, but that was pretty profound for me.

[B]

That sounds right on. And it makes me. I know we're interviewing Tiffany, but you know how I like to do. We may or may not have time. Maybe this can be a future podcast. But I'm curious about your journey of how you Went from, oh, I'm resentful, I'm resentful. I know this is happening, to being able to say, I'm not going to that party. I'm not writing that book. I'm not taking on that project. Even when people don't understand. Because that's the thing is people don't. People who don't have to set these priorities, they don't understand. And so being able to live in a world where people have thoughts about you that are outside of your control, it's a really interesting journey.

[A]

Yeah. And at this point, I just don't care. Right. Because I'm honoring myself and that's what's most important. And I know that when I honor me, then I honor you. And so that's just really profound. Being able to say no and being okay with that.

[C]

It's really important.

[A]

And I know that that was. That project was like a pinnacle moment for me to really realize that, because it was also, I was working full time. I was creating my business. I would go to bed at 12 or 1am I don't think much has changed actually now, but I was like, working that 18 hours a and I'd get up at 6am to get to my full time. It was just like, exhausting. Right. And I don't want to live in the world of resentment. I'm busy now. But it's, like you said, very much more intentional. Like, I'm very specific. I'm clear why I'm busy. It's not that I'm always loving it, but it's not because I'm saying yes when I mean no. And I also. I think also the journey of business helps us realize that, like, to me, one of the greatest things is outsourcing. Right. And it was funny because I was having a conversation with my spouse a few weeks ago about our friend who always invites us over for dinner and he cooks for us. And she was saying, like, how she feels bad and we should do that. And I was like, look, he enjoys that. That's his super talent. We have other super talents. Like, that's okay. I don't then have to reciprocate with something that I don't enjoy doing. You know what I mean? I just don't have time to do it all, and I'm okay with that. So I think it's being able to look at yourself in the world and what you can give and that we should be in our zone of genius. Like everything that you as a practice builder that Kate and I talk about, like there's joy in that. And when we do the things that are in our real. Our zone of genius, we get way more out of that, and so doesn't the world. So I'm gonna turn it back over to you, girl.

[B]

I'll say this. That makes me help. That helps me gain clarity about what I was talking about earlier, around losing my mind. So growing up, how I grew up, you know, there's all this stuff around me too. Women saying yes and no, that kind of movement, but even on a much more subtle level. Also being a part of an Adventist church that was. My family were Adventists growing up. So there's this thing around. Women aren't even allowed to know what they want. Your job is simply to serve and say yes. And so part of my work with my therapist is to wake up to being able to pay attention to my gut around saying yes or no. So there are times I say yes, I want to do that thing when I don't actually, upon reflection or stepping back, don't want to. But when you're around people who are wanting a thing from you or wanting you to be a certain way, wanting something from me or wanting me to be a certain way, it's easy to say, yes, I want that too. And only in retrospect or with some stepping away and thinking, saying, that's actually not in line with what I want. So this is that idea of becoming conscious and intentional in the face of people who want to think from you or are asking you to be a certain way for them. Ah, so much here.

[A]

So good. So good. Awesome. I'd love to switch gears, and let's bring some funniness to that. Kate and I would love to know embarrassing story that your family might tell about you. An embarrassing or funny story they might tell about you.

[B]

I don't even know if I have this. This might have to be a shoot. I don't think I have. I don't think I have something.

[A]

All right, next podcast. We're getting your family on the podcast. And I'm sure that they will have.

[B]

They'll have nothing. I'm trying to think. I really am trying to think, but I'll have to come back to that.

[A]

How about an embarrassing client moment? Have you had one of those?

[B]

Always calling, just talking about being unconscious, accidentally calling a client by the wrong name. How does that happen? Like that's happened before. And I'm like, how the. How did that happen? Those are the moments I just cringe inside. But I have a lot of moments where I'm like, why the fuck did I just say that? But to your point, Katie around, trusting the work and it unfolds later. Why that happens. But in the moment, man. But I don't have anything specific. I have to keep thinking about those.

[C]

I had that happen.

[B]

Dissociate my shameful moments. What were you gonna say?

[C]

I was gonna say I had that happen to me where I once called the wife the affair partner's name. And I about, like, died. Absolutely died. I realized as soon as it came out of my mouth, and I was like, oh, shit. Oh, my God. I just did that.

[B]

I almost did that.

[A]

Because the wife and the affair partner, their names, like, rhymed. So I was like, no, no, no. Whatever the name was, right? Like, thank God I got that one. That would have been awful. Or how about, like, sometimes you forget your client name. Or if it's a new client, like, I'll do, like, the look down. Recently, I had a new couple, and I looked down to make sure I knew their name. Cause I like to say their names or whatever. And then I said the husband's name, and he looked at me, he goes, that's not my name. And I'm like, oh, my God. And I looked down, he goes, just kidding.

[B]

Oh. Oh, my gosh. I like your shares. Thanks, guys. You covered me.

[C]

Looking back, what would you say is one of the biggest failures that you've had along your journey?

[B]

Oh, man, I fail all the time.

[A]

Let's celebrate that.

[B]

Yeah, Really a lot of hiring failures. I'm in the process now. You're talking about delegating. I'm in the process now of trying to hire again. And I'm definitely like, how do I avoid failing with hiring again? So those are things, actually. I'll even say this, continuing to. I want to go deep on Lean and make Bank. That's the one thing. That's the one program I really want to run. And I keep saying, yes. This is not anymore. But I kept saying yes to other things that were not that because it was exciting. Or maybe I wanted to collaborate. Or maybe I was like, that income looks good. And every time I do that, it's a fail. Every time I go do something outside of my one choice, I fail at that. Like, it doesn't go well. Even if it goes well, it doesn't work out. Ultimately, it doesn't work out.

[A]

Yeah. And isn't it interesting sometimes, like, when we're helping clients with their own boundaries, we'll say to them, we'll give them, like, a statement to say something. Like, you know, that's a. Thank you so much for offering. Can I get back to you on that? Right. And, like, then get off the phone, don't answer to the email, and then allow ourselves some time and space just to sit with it before we say yes. I remember when Kate and I first started initially K2 visionaries, then became the private practice startup. We said yes to way too much. We fell into bad habits. And nowadays, recently, we had a request to participate in something. And we love Carinola so much. We so wanted to do. Felt bad for us to say no, because with Kate getting ready for maternity leave and all, it just wasn't the right time. And I had just said, we'd love to say yes, but I don't think we would honor you if we were trying to throw this together. And it was awesome. Her assistant responded back. And so we so appreciate you being very conscious of that. And that feels good, that right there. There it is. We honored ourselves, even though it was. We wanted to, and it was just not the right time. And then you get the feedback of, thank you for that. That's the cool stuff right there.

[B]

And it's modeling such awesome stuff because we therapists in the field, practitioners, struggle with this so much. So whenever I have someone who models that for me, I'm like, thank you. Oh, my God. I'm learning from you. I love it.

[A]

Yeah. I would love for you to share a little bit about some of the taboo stuff that you guys talk about with Lean and Make Bank.

[B]

Sure. This is something that my students often talk about, and it's something that I'm thinking through, I think through constantly in terms of my personal relationship, my romantic relationship, my baby daddy. I am really driven to grow, earn an income, understand what to do with that money, how to grow wealth, how to take responsibility. And so sometimes I'll have students who say, how do I get my partner on board? How do I get him or her to. Usually it's a him, actually. How do I get him to get on board with what's going on with the finances? And so that's something I constantly struggle with, too. Like, I want my partner to be on the same page and be as excited about this growth stuff as I am, in the same way that I am. And it used to be that this would hold me back. Like, he's not doing this, he's not doing that. And so I'm really passionate about. I got a fucking can. I swear.

[A]

You already did.

[B]

It's all good. I got a gosh darn it. I gotta do this. I gotta goof myself. Oh, oh, crumpets. I got to. This idea of waiting around for a partner to change so that you can change, or for a partner to get on board so you could take action. That's something that comes up a lot that I really. I disabuse people of that notion that your partner has to be on board in order for you to make changes in your business and your life. So that's something I'm constantly having to work on in myself. And it's something that constantly comes up, and I don't know that people want to hear that. I think that makes them uncomfortable because really, I'm calling out. That's a bull honky excuse. I'm trying to get the cursing off. That's a bull honky excuse. That is keeping you small and you're blaming that person when really it's about you. That's something that's been on my mind lately.

[C]

Yeah, we'll hear that as an objection for the coaching. You know, when people want to join the coaching, they're like, oh, but I got to talk to my partner about it.

[B]

Right. I hear that too. What do you guys make of that? When people, especially women, are like, I gotta talk to my husband. What, for your business decision?

[A]

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So I kind of go back and forth because, you know, obviously Kate and I are partners and we do talk about everything before we make. Unless we've already talked about it. Right. And then, you know, I also want to honor the couple's relationship. But a big aspect of that is the objection. Right. And Joe Muir had. Did this great thing. I had followed up with her recently, again, just to talk about it. So what she does is she'll ask the person that when they say, well, I need to talk with my spouse or whatever about it. And she'll say, you know, that is great. Me and my spouse make a lot of decisions together, too. What do you think your spouse is going to say? So then they're revealing the objections that they actually have, so you can begin to handle those at the same time. Right. Because sometimes throw that up as an excuse.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

You know, you'll say the money stuff, and they'll be like, all right, well, let me get back to you. I just need to talk to my spouse. And then you're like, okay, great. When can we follow up? Do you have any other questions? Like, no, they're just trying to get off the phone.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

It's important to be able to handle that. So, yeah, that is a tough one, you know, because I can see both sides of it.

[B]

I don't know. Have you ever had a husband say, I need to go check in with my wife before I make this business decision?

[A]

Well, being that the field is predominantly female, I don't think we have some.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, we have some male coaches, but we have not heard that objection.

[A]

Yeah, well, I will say in, like, all the different, like, bodies of work and personal development, professional development, like, I've been to a lot of places that, you know, they. They sell stuff and, you know, there's that urgency factor. And I think often say, like, the speaker will say, if you need to speak to your spouse, you need to step outside right now and go speak to your spouse.

[B]

Fantastic.

[A]

Like, they, like, let's get it done. Right. And if there's any questions that you have. But the other thing, too, that I find looking at business and sales overall is a lot of times what they'll do is they'll incorporate either the spouse or the partner. Partner, whatever. Spouse or business partner for free. Right. So it's kind of like they want them involved. So they'll give a free ticket if you purchase this. So that's some ways to kind of handle that and get them engaged. Because, you know, now it's, you know, it's. It's a low risk. You know, it's a risk with your time and you're. And you're getting engaged in that way, and then they can kind of see what you do and see what's possible. And so I know we just kind of like went on a detour here.

[B]

But I think you guys are highlighting this idea. We're talking about the idea of potential clients objections, like, let me go talk to my spouse as a way to say, I don't know, I'm not ready to make this decision. I'm going to use them. Coming back to that idea of boundaries, what they can say is, I hear what you're saying. This sounds like a good opportunity. I'm going to think on it for 48 hours. I'll get back to you. It's kind of like I'm going to ask my husband to not have to deal with saying no to you to your face, you know, or. So that's in the sales call. But even in the. Once they're already in the program. So I don't have sales calls. My folks are in or out. But once they're in the program, we say, let's get off insurance panels or set A no cancellation policy. That's when they're like, oh, well, I need to make sure I talk to my partner so I know what my finances are. You can know what your finances. Why don't you have access to that? Right. Like, those are decisions you can look at. You can, you can understand your finances, whether your partner is anxious or not or, you know, there's some way that we're using our partners to not actually take charge or take responsibility for our own lives.

[A]

But that goes back to what you were saying in the beginning, is there's place that we're just unconscious. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They deal with that. I don't have to know. Right. Because some people are money avoiders and they just want to know. They want to know that the bills get handled, taken care of. But there's some crazy stories as we all know what one partner is doing with the money and what the other partner doesn't know because they're not involved and it's not transparent.

[B]

That's right. There's one question I have in the program, which is, where are you out of financial integrity? And they have to come to the group and talk about where they're out of financial integrity. So if you're lowering your fees or taking or on insurance or have a sliding scale, but you're racking up credit card debt or not paying off your student loans, I'm like, you are out of integrity in that area. So we really go at those kinds of things where people are like, I'm giving back to the community, meanwhile, I'm out of integrity over here. That's just stuff. That stuff doesn't fly.

[A]

That's really important. Yeah. And it's interesting because my spouse and I have a lot of conversations about that stuff, about some people in our world who are extremely out of financial integrity. And that's like one of my pet peeves and hot buttons.

[C]

What is one of your.

[A]

What is one of your pet peeves?

[B]

You guys are tapping on all of them right now. You know what? One of the things. And this is this. I'm sure you guys come across this, too. When people sign up for a program, then they don't take action. And then they say, I didn't take action because of you. And they're not asking questions along the way. They're not checking in like, hey, I need more feedback about this is working, or that's not working. They wait so many months or weeks or the program's almost done, and then they're like, this didn't work for me. What so it's really frustrating for me when people. And it could be out of. Again, it's hard to know. Is out of consciousness. They're not. They're not aware or they're afraid to speak up or whatever they. The anxieties they have, but they're not taking responsibility. And it often comes in the form of. This is one of my. I guess this is one of my pet peeves. I talk about it a lot. It's great that you can do that thing. But I can't do that because X, you know, my dog is sick or my. A million reasons. I had bacon on my eggs last night. My parents didn't come from that. When people say that person was able to accomplish it, but I can't because I'm a special snowflake, that just tears me apart. Right. Like your special snowflake reason why that person could achieve and I can't achieve. The excuses people use. It really dismisses the hard work that the people. You know, some people are born with parents who are wealthy and put you in private school. And we're emotionally present and all the. Okay, that's great. But so many of us did not come from that. And so when someone says, well, that was easy for you, Tiffany, or that was easy for you, Kate or Katie, it's dismissing all of the hard work it took and the pain it took to get to the position we have and the continued struggle to grow. It just dismisses all of that and says, I can't because I'm different. I'm special or anxious.

[A]

You know, as you talk about that, I did this woman's group many, many years ago, and I handed out pieces of paper and I said, I want you to write your excuses on the paper. Right. And then. So they did that. And then I said, now I want you to look at it. There's probably a theme. And then I said, I want you to pick the top two excuses you give every time. It's like habitual. You don't even think about it. You just say, I don't have the time or I'm too busy or it's.

[B]

It.

[A]

Whatever it is. And I said, great. You're not allowed to say those for the next two weeks. And I want to know what is going to change in your life because you're not using your habitual excuses. That was like, pretty profound. And many, many months or years later, I had gotten an email from a woman that was in my group or someone I knew, knew her. And they said, so. And so is doing this she went back to school. She did. And I'm like, that's freaking amazing. That that happened is because what's possible.

[C]

When we give up our excuses.

[B]

Absolutely. I love that. I love it.

[A]

Very cool.

[C]

What do you think, Katie? Are we at lightning round? I think we're at lightning round. Yep. Tiffany, are you ready for lightning round?

[B]

You know, I'm only getting two hours of sleep at a pop, so. We'll see. We'll see.

[C]

We'll see what flies out of your mouth.

[A]

Actually, before we go into lightning round, that is what I wanted to ask you, Tiffany, is how do you stay so energetic getting two hours of sleep at a pot? Please enlighten our audience.

[B]

We gotta know that I think I'm. I don't know if I'm introverted or extroverted, but when I'm with people who I like, I have energy. I only have one coffee a day. I'm not really actually caffeinated, but I really love talking about the stuff. It gets me going. And then I'm gonna go home and probably fall asleep. I'm gonna go home and hang out with my kid and wish I was going to sleep, but I don't know. I love this. I love this. Talking about being in your lane, like, doing the thing that excites you, being able to talk about the thing that you're passionate about. Energy comes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, you're clearly on fire when you talk about these things and just so passionate. And it is like taking a shot of double espresso. I'm not sleeping well. I'm tired. And every time I'm around you, I'm, like, energized. And I'm not able to drink coffee right now because I'm pregnant. So it's like, thank you for the caffeine, Tiffany. Yes, thank you.

[A]

Yes. And you re energized. You re energized me for my. Very exhausting. I don't even know how long it's been, but, yes, you re energized me as well. So we so appreciate that because it does appear that you're just, like, caffeinated all the time. We just call you Double Shot Espresso to the left.

[B]

I love that. That's my new nickname.

[C]

It is totally. All right, it's lightning round time, and we're doing this for 90 seconds, right?

[A]

90 seconds. Sounds good. Again, just like all of our up close and personal podcasts, our guests have no idea what we're asking them, so everything is off the top of their head. So, Tiffany, if you get stuck on something. You can say pass and we'll just keep going on.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

All right, first question. What is one of the most unique hobbies that you have?

[B]

Violin. Okay, that's pretty unique, I guess so.

[A]

That was funny you said it. Like violin, maybe. Is that a good answer?

[B]

Well, because I kind of gave it up when I had. I want to get back to it. So it's like a phony baloney hobby, sitting and watching tv. I don't know. I have no unique hobbies right now.

[C]

Gotcha.

[A]

Do you have any pets? And if so, what are their names?

[B]

I have a cat named Lotus and October passed away last month. Yeah. Toby was the cat who passed. This podcast is going down, down, down, so. But on the good hand, I don't have to clean up. I'm sad about this, but also not having a 17 year old cat. We have a 19 year old cat that was 17 year old cat with a baby in a one bedroom. That's tough. So I'm both sad and a little. It's a little relieving. Wow. Yeah.

[C]

You have such interesting style. And I'm curious, what's one thing that you would never wear?

[B]

Ooh, khaki. Khakis. Can I say khakis? Cargo pack khakis. That's out. I'm not wearing that.

[A]

It's funny that Kate went to style because I wanted to ask, like, what's one of the items that you wear or accessorize with that really fits your personality?

[B]

This one, which I'm wearing right now for people to see. It's my dad's shirt from when he had it. When. Oops. He had it when I was a kid. It's these yellow T shirts. It's falling apart and it says, I'd rather be fishing. And I'm like, am I all the time that I don't want to be here and I'd rather be fishing right now? This is constantly nice.

[C]

What's your spirit animal?

[B]

Ooh, not a sloth. I might say like a stallion. Also a male, which is interesting. All right, we'll go with that.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Favorite junk food.

[B]

Oh, Honey mustard. Kettle. Kettle chips. Those are called kettle chips. I really like those. And popcorn. I eat popcorn a couple times a week and I pop on my stove.

[C]

Delicious.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, here's a unique one. You have to spend seven days alone in the woods. Your safety is guaranteed. From bigfoot, spiders, or serial killers. What personal item would you bring to give you comfort?

[B]

Wow. A notebook, a journal, and fuzzy. He's a one eyed Teddy bear, who I got when I was four from my grandma who died, and she was racist, so I took the bear. I sleep with him every night. There you go. There's a story. We just got crazy.

[A]

Will that be a discussion with the therapist this week? Just wondering.

[B]

Definitely. Two hours.

[A]

You're hosting a fantasy dinner party with six of the most awesome people. Who would you invite? Just name one.

[B]

Oh, Obama.

[A]

Very cool. You want to wrap up the last one? One more.

[C]

Oh, goodness. All right, what's the best theme party you've ever been to?

[B]

Oh, oh. Just always the underwear party. I just gotta say, the underwear parties are always the funnest.

[A]

I don't think I've ever been invited to an underwear party. You need to.

[B]

You gotta host your underwear party. You don't get invited to the underwear party.

[C]

How does the underwear party work?

[A]

Is that a party of one?

[B]

I have an underwear party every night in my house. Underwear party. You just gotta come in your favorite underwear. But I didn't get the favorite, like, the nice. I was real nerdy growing up, as you know. So we hosted an underwear party, and I guess people came in sexy lingerie. Sexy lingerie. And I came in, like, tighty, whiny, like, just the worst underwear and, like, a sports bra, because I didn't understand you were supposed to be looking sexy. So that's underwear.

[A]

Gotcha. Well, I was literally thinking underwear party, and then I was like, wait, is this a joke? Like, you know, your underwear party at nighttime, your pajamas?

[B]

It was just once in college, but I'm like, how many theme parties have I ever been to? So that's the one that came to my mind.

[C]

All right, there you have it.

[B]

Awkward. Awkward.

[A]

Well, we love it. Thank you so much for being such a great sport. And, you know, not only was this podcast fun and enlightening and exciting, and we really got into depth of awesome conversation that really kept all of us energized. But there you guys have it. That's Tiffany McLean. We really appreciate that you are here with us today. And next time, that will be our fifth and final person, and we are going to be interviewing another fan favorite, which is Alison per year. So we look forward to having her on the podcast next time.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And if you guys are enjoying the podcast, please let us know, subscribe, rate, and review the show. We love when we get random emails from you guys giving us feedback about the podcast. If there's a topic that you haven't heard yet, we would love to be able to produce that content for you to make sure that we are really supporting your needs from Startup to Mastery. And Katie, anything else you want to add?

[A]

Yeah, I just want to say thanks a lot Startup Nation. Thanks for allowing us to inspire you from Startup to Mastery. Have an awesome and inspired day. Take care.

[C]

See you tomorrow.

[B]

Think so.

[C]

Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more.

[B]

Sam.