Product Thinking Podcast Episode 210

Navigating Product Leadership in Complex Industries with Fabio Brocca

Host: Melissa Perri
Guest: Fabio Brocca, Chief Product Officer (CPO) at Xeneta
Date: February 12, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Melissa Perri sits down with Fabio Brocca, CPO at Xeneta, a platform transforming the ocean and air freight industry. Drawing on his deep experience at companies like MSC, Amazon, and now Xeneta, Fabio shares hard-won lessons on navigating product leadership in complex, traditional industries. The conversation explores Fabio’s journey into product management, his approach to leadership and strategy, transitioning from big tech to a scale-up environment, and the art of balancing customer empathy with business pragmatism. For anyone aspiring to product leadership in high-stakes, regulated, or complex sectors, this episode delivers actionable insights and candid reflections.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Fabio’s Unplanned Path into Product Management

[09:38]

• Fabio describes his entry into product management as “by mistake,” starting as a business-side intern at MSC and rolling out IT systems globally, before learning his role was essentially product management.
  • Quote: “I stumbled upon product management rather than jumping into it.” – Fabio [10:47]
• He was first formally exposed to product management at Amazon.

The Power and Challenge of Complex Industries

[11:18]

• Shipping and logistics attracted Fabio due to their scale, physicality, and tangible impact.
  • Quote: “90% of everything around us…travels on a container at some point in its life.” – Fabio [11:59]
• The industry’s complexity continuously presents new learning opportunities.

Redefining “Significant Accomplishment”

[12:49]

• Fabio’s definition of accomplishment evolved—initially about promotions, now centered more on growth, optimism, and especially the development of people.
  • Quote: “An important part of leadership for me is coaching—helping people see their potential even when they don’t see it.” – Fabio [14:14]

Early Learnings as CPO: Speed Over Perfection

[14:45]

• Upon becoming CPO at Xeneta, Fabio struggled with ambiguity and quickly realized key early challenges:
  1. Lack of clear guidelines on the CPO role.
  2. Need to learn outside of product (finance, sales, etc.).
  3. Importance of quickly understanding why he was hired.
  4. Shifting from tactical work to strategic leadership.
• Prioritized execution and iteration over perfect strategy:
  • Quote: “Speed was more important than perfection at the beginning...Execution is more important than crafting the best strategy.” – Fabio [16:07], [14:56]

Avoiding the “Peanut Butter” Problem

[18:43]

• Fabio emphasized building credibility by:
  • Deep in-person relationship building despite geographic differences.
  • Early focus on strategy: workshopping 3–5 year visions with the C-team, defining three core strategic pillars.
  • Tactically mapping current initiatives to assess over-extension.
• Introduced the practice of specifying what NOT to do in strategic documents, acknowledging that “good ideas” can’t all be prioritized.
  • Quote: “Every strategic document we have a section that says: what is it that we are NOT going to do? ...Those ideas are really, really good, but we are not doing it. And this is why.” – Fabio [21:53]

Transitioning from Amazon to a Growth-Stage Company

[24:44]

• Notable contrasts:
  • Amazon: Highly structured, clear roles, many resources, complex dependencies, data-driven, slower decision-making due to alignment needs.
  • Xeneta (Scale-up): Minimal structure—must be created, broader responsibilities, higher priority on focus and ruthless prioritization, more direct customer access, faster-paced.
  • Quote: “At Amazon, as a product manager, you have to adapt to the culture; in a scale-up, you have to build the culture.” – Fabio [25:27]

Empowering Product Teams with Limited Resources

[32:33]

• Increased product manager seniority to drive autonomy within defined three-year strategic pillars and flexible quarterly plans.
• Allows PMs ownership over their space and prioritization, enabling fast pivots.
• Uses “pulling people out of the system” method—dedicating select PMs and engineers to ambiguous or high-impact explorations.
  • Quote: “The product managers are the ultimate owners of their space.” – Fabio [34:05]

Building in Traditional/Complex Industry Environments

[36:37]

• Many industry problems are not unique; learning from adjacent industries is invaluable.
• The biggest challenge is not technical, but overcoming inertia and change aversion.
  • Quote: “There’s a lot of inertia...I will never forget, a senior VP saying: 'You’re moving too fast, this is not good for the industry.'” – Fabio [37:03]
• Relationship-building and change management are essential for adoption and progress.

Freight Industry Inefficiencies & Xeneta’s Mission

[38:24]

• Shipping rates are volatile and opaque; buyers lack reference points, akin to buying a house without knowing market rates.
• Xeneta aggregates and anonymizes contract data, creating market-level benchmarks for over 170,000 port pairs.
• Next challenges: supporting industry shift to rate-indexing and delivering actionable insights, not just raw data.

GenAI and Advanced Technology

[40:44]

• Xeneta is experimenting with GenAI for new data interaction methods, e.g., chatbots, graph generation, and visualization.
• Belief that traditional AI still offers further opportunity—hybrid machine learning plus human-in-the-loop approaches boost trust and context.
  • Quote: “Even I think GenAI is the new kid on the block...but there’s so much more we can do with traditional AI.” – Fabio [41:30]

Advice for Product Managers Eyeing “Unsexy” Industries

[42:40]

• Deep industry knowledge matters—it accelerates career growth and customer empathy.
• Early career is about learning—a great manager and team matter more than glamorous industry or titles.
  • Quote: “What really matters is who you work for...mentoring you is disproportionately important versus the industry.” – Fabio [44:12]
• Stay curious, keep a “beginner’s mind” to avoid complacency as industry knowledge deepens.

Core Product Philosophy

[46:17]

• Product management is rooted in customer empathy, healthy obsession, optimism, and balancing opposites (vision/detail, speed/quality, conviction/flexibility).
• Likens product work to art—continuous experimentation and iteration.
  • Quote: “Product management is more of an art than a science…like art, I think the journey never ends.” – Fabio [47:44]
  • Quote: “Art is never finished, it is only abandoned. I think the same is true for product.” – Fabio [48:28]

Notable Quotes

• “Speed was more important than perfection at the beginning…Execution is more important than crafting the best strategy.” — Fabio [00:00], [14:56]
• “I stumbled upon product management rather than jumping into it.” — Fabio [10:47]
• “An important part of leadership for me is coaching—helping people see their potential even when they don’t see it.” — Fabio [14:14]
• “At Amazon, as a product manager, you have to adapt to the culture; in a scale-up, you have to build the culture.” — Fabio [25:27]
• “Every strategic document we have a section that says: what is it that we are NOT going to do?” — Fabio [21:53]
• “The product managers are the ultimate owners of their space.” — Fabio [34:05]
• “There’s a lot of inertia…You’re moving too fast, this is not good for the industry.” — Fabio [37:03]
• “What really matters is who you work for...mentoring you is disproportionately important versus the industry.” — Fabio [44:12]
• “Product management is more of an art than a science…like art, I think the journey never ends.” — Fabio [47:44]
• “Art is never finished, it is only abandoned. I think the same is true for product.” — Fabio [48:28]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Fabio’s journey into product management: [09:38]
• The appeal of complex industries: [11:18]
• Leadership and accomplishment: [12:49]
• Early CPO lessons: [14:45]
• Delegating and strategic focus: [17:44]
• Strategy and establishing vision: [18:43]
• Prioritization and focus (what NOT to do): [21:53]
• Transitioning from Amazon to Xeneta: [24:44]
• Product management at big tech vs. scale-up: [27:08]
• Empowering teams/resource constraints: [32:33]
• Building in complex, traditional industries: [36:37]
• Freight industry inefficiencies & Xeneta’s solution: [38:24]
• AI and GenAI in logistics products: [40:44]
• Advice for PMs in “unsexy” industries: [42:40]
• Fabio’s product philosophy: [46:17]

Memorable Moments

• The "what are we NOT doing?" strategy matrix and its impact on organizational focus. [21:53]
• The “Peanut Butter Problem"—spreading resources too thin—and the solution of concentrated, time-bound initiatives. [23:16]
• Analogizing product work to Leonardo da Vinci’s sketchbooks—“Art is never finished, only abandoned.” [48:28]
• Fabio’s recommendation: do both big tech and scale-up environments to round out product management expertise. [31:55]
• Candid advice to early-career PMs: prioritize learning and mentorship over industry glamour. [44:12]

Final Reflection and Advice

• On anxiety and career worries:
  • “Most of the things that you are worried about will never happen...When someone tells you no, what they really are trying to say is not now...It’s okay not to know. The magic is in the journey.” – Fabio [50:40]

People to Watch

• Paul King (Amazon/Maersk) — Leadership through coaching and empathy.
• Michele Sankrica (Secro) — High standards and ambitious product management.
• Matt Fischo — Engineering innovation (retractable lightsaber project).

For more on Fabio Brocca, connect with him on LinkedIn.

Show notes and links: productthinkingpodcast.com