Product Thinking Podcast – Episode 245

Building Product Thinking in Engineering Teams with Matt Watson

Host: Melissa Perri
Guest: Matt Watson, Founder & CEO of Fullscale, author of Product Driven
Date: September 17, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Melissa Perri sits down with Matt Watson to explore how fostering product thinking in engineering teams leads to real ownership, creativity, and business impact. Drawing from Matt’s experience as a founder, CTO, and executive leader of a nine-figure exit company, the conversation delves into the dangers of an “order taker” culture, balancing roles between product and engineering, and practical ways to cultivate autonomy, courage, and cross-functional vision. Matt shares key insights from his new book, Product Driven, offering an actionable model for leaders aiming to unlock their teams’ full potential.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Product Driven" Model: Moving Beyond Order Taking

Timestamp: [00:00], [04:53], [14:16]

• Vision First:

  • True product thinking for engineers starts with vision—not a generic mission statement, but a clear answer to “why are we doing this?”
  • “The best developers we have are the ones that ask a lot of questions. They'll validate assumptions, they'll push back, they'll bring ideas, right? That takes courage. It's a lot easier to just do what you're told, never speak up.” —Matt Watson [00:29]

• Order Takers vs. Product Owners:

  • The highest-impact engineers are engaged, curious collaborators—not just executors of specs.
  • Teams become “order takers” when they lack context, clarity, and psychological safety.
  • “You've got to build a team culture that incentivizes it, rewards it and allows it. Otherwise you're just getting a bunch of order takers.” —Matt Watson [01:22]

2. Engineers Practicing Product Thinking

Timestamp: [04:53], [06:17], [09:30], [10:38]

• Defining Product Thinking:

  • Distinguished as outward (customer/product/business) vs. inward (just code, tools) focus.
  • “Nobody cares about your code. They care about what your code does… They care about the higher level purpose of this.” —Matt Watson [05:11]

• Engineers & Product Managers: Different Lenses, Shared Context

  • Product sets strategic direction; engineers need clarity on tactical vision.
  • “We all need access to the same information, but some of it's just through different lenses… The engineering team may also know way more than the product team does.” —Matt Watson [06:22]
  • Balancing technical debt and new features is a joint effort.

• Too Much "How", Not Enough "Why"

  • Over-specifying “how” turns engineers into cogs, undercuts motivation and innovation.
  • “As a product team, it's important to tell them the what and the why, but be really careful about telling them how because they need to engineer that part of it.” —Matt Watson [10:46]

3. Team Culture: Psychological Safety, Ownership & Courage

Timestamp: [12:41], [14:16], [18:21], [19:32]

• Courage and Psychological Safety

  • Speaking up, challenging assumptions, and advocating for customer needs requires psychological safety and leadership support.
  • “It takes courage to speak up and ask questions, to push back. But that starts with team culture… Do I give people space to speak up and say those things?” —Matt Watson [18:32]

• Leadership’s Role

  • Culture—more than process—enables creativity and innovation.
  • “A lot of this is culture. It's creating a culture where the engineers are allowed to speak up, they're allowed to have ideas, they're allowed to push back.” —Matt Watson [14:19]
  • Order-taker cultures stifle product innovation.

• Encouraging Ownership

  • Empowering teams to weigh in on scope, outcomes, and tradeoffs improves engagement and real outcomes.
  • “As a leader, I end up being the bottleneck at all times… Where can we get the team to take more ownership…” —Matt Watson [32:54]

4. Tactics: Clarity, One-on-Ones, and Effective Standups

Timestamp: [16:05], [21:37], [23:27], [30:33]

• Product Vision & Clarity

  • Clarity around "why", "what", and "how" is fuel for high-performing software teams.
  • “Clarity is a fuel of software engineering… As an engineer themselves, it's important for them to speak up and make sure they know it…” —Matt Watson [30:33]

• Daily Meetings & One-on-Ones

  • Effective status meetings aren’t for mere status—they’re a venue for surfacing uncertainty, clarifying purpose, and removing blockers.
  • “I think one of the biggest mistakes software engineering leaders make is how they use daily status meetings…They’re missing a really critical opportunity to drive clarity.” —Matt Watson [16:05]
  • One-on-ones foster relationships, enable candid feedback, and empower direct conversations.
  • “Building real relationships with people…as leaders, we have to make sure we build that relationship with people.” —Matt Watson [21:37]
  • Coachable moments—referencing retros or meetings—are opportunities for growth.

5. Adapting to the Age of AI & Changing Skills

Timestamp: [27:09], [29:02], [34:08], [35:02]

• The Shift to Low-Code and Product Collaboration

  • Routine “order taking” will be automated. Product-thinking skills will be at a premium.
  • “As AI is changing things, we're going to have to have more and more people that have higher level product thinking…AI is coming for your job.” —Matt Watson [12:56]

• Engineers Need Empathy & Soft Skills

  • Emotional intelligence, collaboration, and customer empathy are critical.
  • “The first step of this is having empathy. As a software engineer, it's having empathy for the customer, the users, your teammates…” —Matt Watson [34:56]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Importance of Courage in Teams
  • “It takes courage to speak up and ask questions, to push back, right?...That starts with sort of team culture.” —Matt Watson [00:53], [18:32]
• On Culture and Ownership
  • “If you have to create a culture. And I never thought I'd write a book about culture, but a lot of this is culture.” —Matt Watson [14:20]
• On Product Managers as Gatekeepers
  • “A lot of times companies hire these product managers…The product managers don't really know anything...Or maybe the engineers even know way more.” —Matt Watson [07:05]
• On the Evolution of Engineering Work with AI
  • “I think all software engineering is slowly going to this middle ground where it's low code. Now we will still have like deep engineering stuff…but a lot of just regular business, enterprise B2B sort of line of business apps, all that kind of stuff are basically becoming more low code.” —Matt Watson [27:34]
• On Defining Success and Ownership
  • “Definition of done means we got it to the customer. We know if it mattered or not should be the definition to me.” —Matt Watson [31:49]

Practical Takeaways for Leaders & Teams

• Foster a culture where questions, challenges, and ideas are welcome and rewarded
• Prioritize clarity—share “why” and “what”, not just “how”
• Use one-on-ones and status meetings for real communication and coaching, not just status
• Encourage engineers to take ownership of not just code, but customer outcomes
• Prepare for AI and low-code shifts by developing product thinking, empathy, and business understanding in technical teams

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–01:22] — Vision, Culture, and Courage in Teams
• [02:45–04:40] — Matt’s Background & Motivation for Product Driven
• [04:53–07:57] — Defining Product Thinking for Engineers and PMs
• [09:30–11:54] — Tradeoffs in Engineering; Overcoming Over-Specification
• [12:41–14:16] — Order Taker Mindset & Leadership’s Role
• [16:05–18:12] — Effective Meetings and Leadership Behaviors
• [19:32–23:27] — Building Ownership, Courage, and Relationships via One-on-Ones
• [27:09–30:16] — AI, Low-Code, and Future Product/Engineering Skills
• [30:33–33:57] — Clarity, Outcome Ownership, and Metrics for Success
• [34:08–36:33] — Emotional Intelligence, Empathy, and Career Advice

For more from Matt Watson, check out his book Product Driven at productdriven.com, and for ongoing product management insights, visit Product Thinking Podcast.