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- [00:01]
Scott Galloway
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- [00:30]
Ed
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void?
- [00:35]
Scott Galloway
Well, with LinkedIn ads you can know.
- [00:37]
Ed
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- [00:45]
Scott Galloway
Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you.
- [00:48]
Ed
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- [00:50]
Scott Galloway
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- [00:52]
Ed
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- [01:01]
Scott Galloway
On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
- [01:29]
Ed
Today's number 37. That's the percentage of the British public that says they swear every day more than any other country. I don't have a joke about that Ed, because I am so excited. True story. Last week Property Markets was two of the three most listened to episodes in the world.
- [01:48]
Monica Deboll
Wow.
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Ed
In business podcasts and what is really frustrating was that both those episodes I wasn't on either of them. So Ed, like you are progressing to a big time person with managerial responsibilities. You're now overseeing people. And I just want to give you a pro tip about once an organization grows and there's a lot of people, the first thing you need to do it is you need to call in all hands and you need to announce and say you're sharing something with them. Quite vulnerable but that you've had. You were in a terrible accident. You were in a terrible accident and some of you emotional inhibitors have been damaged and there's going to be some locker room talk and some inappropriate touching, but you trust they'll understand your journey back.
- [02:42]
Monica Deboll
Listen to me.
- [02:43]
Ed
Markets are bigger than us.
- [02:44]
Scott Galloway
What you have here is a structural.
- [02:46]
Monica Deboll
Change in the wealth distribution.
- [02:47]
Ed
Cash is trash Stocks look pretty attractive.
- [02:50]
Scott Galloway
Something's going to break. Forget about it.
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Ed
I don't know. I find that so funny. And it's got nothing to do with breath.
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Monica Deboll
Nothing to do with.
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Ed
It's got nothing to do with swearing.
- [02:58]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, but. That's your managerial advice for me.
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Ed
My inhibition sensors. Sensors Were damaged in a terrible accident. There's going to be some inappropriate touching. I appreciate your patience. On my journey back, I got to do that in all hands just to see how Katherine responds.
- [03:15]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, you should try that and see how that goes.
- [03:17]
Ed
Yeah. What's going on, Ed? What's going on with you?
- [03:20]
Monica Deboll
Not too much. I'm just sort of fascinated by what's going on behind you. You've got, like, a dark, stormy. What is that, a painting? Where. Where are you? What's going on?
- [03:32]
Ed
I'm in Aspen, and the guy who saves my bacon is Drew. Came back here a couple days early, rented a three bedroom apartment, and there's. There's audio equipment everywhere. And the last time I was here, I was on that white Dudes for Harris thing. Was that exactly a year ago? I guess that was a year ago. And I looked so. I looked even. I looked my. I looked so ugly. I looked like me. I looked. It was. I looked my age. And my natural lighting came through. And I said to him, boss, you gotta. You got. Look what we're working with here. And so he set up great lighting and he found. He and Catherine designed this little backdrop. It feels to me like a little bit like too many hits of acid.
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Monica Deboll
I think it looks great. It looks very. You look very, very professorial.
- [04:17]
Ed
There you go.
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Monica Deboll
Very sort of Timothy Leary or something.
- [04:19]
Ed
This is all Drew, but, yeah, I'm in. I'm in Aspen. Where are you?
- [04:23]
Monica Deboll
I am in New York, living the dream, recording some podcasts.
- [04:28]
Ed
Are you doing anything with your girlfriend this summer? Are you going anywhere? Taking her anywhere?
- [04:31]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, we're going to go to Sardinia.
- [04:32]
Ed
Oh, smell you. Someone's making a little too much cabbage. Someone's a little overpaid. All right, Ed, let's get to the interview. This is very exciting.
- [04:41]
Monica Deboll
Okay, here's our conversation with Monica Deboll, senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics and the host of Policy for the Planet. Monica, thank you so much for joining us for the very first time on Profge Markets.
- [04:54]
Scott Galloway
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you.
- [05:00]
Monica Deboll
So you are a macroeconomist, you are a global policy expert, a professor, many things. But you are also an expert on Brazil, and Brazil has been in the news a lot recently, as most of us know, Trump has threatened this 50% tariff on Brazil.
- [05:23]
Scott Galloway
We.
- [05:23]
Monica Deboll
Which has brought up a lot of questions for us about what does this do to Brazil, what is going on in Brazil, what is Brazil's relationship with the United States, et cetera, et cetera. So that is why we're very happy to have you. And we thought that now would be a great time to get your take on things. So we really appreciate you being here.
- [05:40]
Scott Galloway
Thank you. It's my pleasure to be here. And I'll just say that I'm also Brazilian, and I was in Brazil when they announced the tariffs.
- [05:48]
Monica Deboll
Well, maybe let's start with there. I mean, just go over what is the tariff situation. Trump has threatened this 50% tariff on Brazil. He said it's because of a, quote, witch hunt against the former President Bolsonaro. Just for those of us who have no idea what any of this means or what the situation is, give us the rundown. What is the political situation in Brazil and how did people react when you were over there and this tariff news hit?
- [06:15]
Scott Galloway
So, in a nutshell, the situation with former President Jair Bolsonaro is that he's been under investigation, litigation, and now his trial is actually upcoming in a few days or in a few weeks, perhaps over his involvement in the 2023 January 8th uprisings against the Brazilian Congress, the Brazilian Supreme Court, and also the presidency. There was an insurrection on January 8th in Brazil, not unlike what happened in the United States on January 6th two years before. And Bolsonaro was heavily involved. I mean, it's not even an allegation anymore at this point, because the investigations have shown that he was clearly involved in organizing and orchestrating a part of this insurrection. And that is what's. What's happening at the moment is that these investigations have now come to a close. And it's at the point where he's going to be tried and he will likely be, well, not just indicted, but convicted. And we will have to see what kind of penalties the Brazilian judicial system is going to impose. But nonetheless, that's the situation. It took everyone by surprise when this announcement came from the White House. They announced the tariff announcement, specifically linking it to the investigations concerning former President Bolsonaro and what is currently going on in Brazil, which pertains uniquely to Brazil.
- [07:51]
Monica Deboll
One should say, why do you think Trump cares about this? Why would this political situation in Brazil cause this outburst from the president over here? And why is he using tariffs as a way to sort of punish that behavior? I know we can't really get inside of his head. But generally speaking, like, how would one justify this?
- [08:14]
Scott Galloway
I cannot justify it, okay? Under any reasonable logic. I mean, in a sense, what is currently happening in Brazil is Brazil's business. What is currently happening with regard to former President Jair Bolsonaro is Brazil's business. And Brazil's business alone, it has no implications whatsoever for the United States or for the US Economy, for that matter. So it really does not stand to reason, you know, why would the US do something like this? It. It doesn't make any sense, and it makes no sense from an economic point of view, because Brazil and the United States have always had trade relations. They've always been pretty good. There's never been much of anything that's gone on between the two countries. Some skirmishes here and there, but nothing serious over decades and decades of involvement between the two countries. So this decision or this announcement really was taken with a lot of surprise by Brazilian authorities, the media, everybody, and no one understands what is the rationale behind it. What is clear, of course, is that the investigations, the trial, everything that's currently ongoing will obviously continue because these are sovereign decisions. And like I said, they have to do with Brazil alone.
- [09:38]
Monica Deboll
So say this tariff goes through, and I think there's a lot of debate over whether they will actually happen. But say the 50% tariff goes through in Brazil. What would that do to Brazil? How would that affect Brazil's economy?
- [09:51]
Scott Galloway
So Brazil and the United States have, as I said, a long, very, very long commercial trade relationship and investment relationship, for that matter. There are US Companies that have been in Brazil for over a century. There are Brazilian companies that have been in the United States for also a very, very long time. There are lots of things that the two countries buy and sell from each other. Lots and lots of different products and different categories of things and goods and services and everything in between. Brazil is, as you know, Latin America's largest economy. It's larger than Mexico, and of course, it can obviously withstand the 50% tariffs, although it will hurt a lot of sectors in Brazil. But it should be said it will also hurt a lot of sectors or would hurt a lot of sectors in the U.S. if that tariff were to come into effect.
- [10:50]
Monica Deboll
When that announcement happens and you are in Brazil, what is the feeling among Brazilians? Is it sort of like, this is kind of crazy and funny and this guy is stupid? Or is it. This is really scary and this is escalating a relationship that we depend on? Is it? This is just more drama and it's more tv. And it's kind of exciting. Like, I think in America, the answer is often sort of all of the above. I think a lot of us find it just. It's entertainment in a lot of ways at this point because it's just. It's getting so crazy and oftentimes it never goes through. But as someone in Brazil, what is the feeling when a headline like that comes out which should have this massive consequence, but as we know, maybe it's just funny news.
- [11:41]
Scott Galloway
The first reaction was sort of shock and astonishment. Yeah, I won't say shock and awe, because there's no awe element to this. So it was shock and astonishment. Everybody was just completely taken by surprise. And there was an element of, what. What is going on? What is this about? Why. Why are they doing this to Brazil at this point, when Brazil doesn't even have, I mean, the typical rationale that you see coming out of the US Administration for tariffs, yes, they can use anything under the sun that they like, but more typically, they've pointed to trade deficits as a reason for why tariffs are warranted on a particular country at a particular time. Not that the trade deficit rationale really has any economic bite to it, but. But at least that's how they framed it before with these tariffs on Brazil. They haven't used any trade issue to kind of underpin or underlie the decision because Brazil doesn't have actually a surplus with the US or rather the US doesn't have a trade deficit with Brazil. It's the opposite. The US Has a trade surplus with Brazil, so Brazil has a trade deficit with the US so by that usual logic, the 50% tariff doesn't work. And when people realize that the argument, the underlying argument was political in nature, there was a kind of a combination of, I would say, all of the above. So there was some entertaining aspects to that because, of course, people saw it as, no, you know, the US can't interfere in our business. So there was an element of that. There was an element of indignation. And that element is still present, given that, you know, there has been some turbulence way in the past. So we're talking here about the 1970s and the 1980s between Brazil and the US and also the US and other Latin American countries at that point. And that memory, you know, yeah, it was a long time ago, but it is still a very present memory to a lot of people. So whenever they see, you know, the US attempting to, in their view, interfere with things that are Brazilian, of Brazilian, you know, concern, and Brazilian concern only of course, that doesn't rub people the right way. So, you know, people get somewhat irritated by that. So there was an element of irritation. And then lastly, yeah, people are also scared, you know, because of course, the, the, the impact of a tariff of this size is very big and it can have a huge impact on many, many sectors of the economy and many, many sectors that the economy relies to grow. Agribusiness being at the center point of this when we speak of where the damages may lie, and so on. So I would say there's a combination of things going on at the moment. But I would underscore one thing. Before the announcement of the 50% tariff, the situation in Brazil was they're going to be general elections in 2026. These are presidential elections, congressional elections, and election for governor throughout the country. And so this is a pre election year. And of course, things are already gearing up for the election. And prior to the announcement, the current president, Lula Luis Inacio Lula da Silva, was actually not doing very well in the polls. What's happened since the announcement was made is that there's been quite a rally behind Lula. And of course, you know, not unlike what happened in Canada.
- [15:29]
Monica Deboll
In Canada, yeah.
- [15:30]
Scott Galloway
You know, he's, he's now doing somewhat better in the polls. And the, and the, the far right in Brazil, which is somewhat aligned with, you know, the current US Administration, they're kind of lost because they can't really make a case for why 50% tariffs would be defensible under any circumstance. So in a way, you know, the announcement has sort of, is sort of right now at least helping Lula politically.
- [16:02]
Monica Deboll
The reason he does them is largely to threaten another nation into getting something that he wants, or it's a negotiating tactic or whatever it is. It sounds like this isn't working at all because as you said, they're just gonna proceed with this indictment of Bolsonaro. And so what I'm hearing from you is there is an impact on enacting a 50% tariff on Brazil, but it's not nearly big enough for the government in Brazil to change anything about what they're doing or how they're proceeding with this lawsuit. In other words, it sounds like the threat is not working at all. Is that right?
- [16:44]
Scott Galloway
That's right. It's not working at all.
- [16:45]
Monica Deboll
Well, I just wanted to confirm that.
- [16:48]
Ed
I think it's likely to backfire based on what we've seen elsewhere. I feel as if I've been an evangelist for Brazil for the better part of the last 15 years. And since then I've been going to Brazil two or three times a year. And it just has all of the underpinnings and all of the assets of an economy and a society that should be increasing its role on the global stage in economic growth. Incredible natural resources, huge domestic market, incredible agribusiness, even some great tech companies. I've gotten to know the management team at nubank. Unbelievable natural beauty and tourism, potential leadership in renewable energy. And yet it. It feels like Brazil's always a nation that is on the verge of happening. It's always tomorrow and never quite seems to get out of its own way or command the space it could occupy. What do you think? Well, first off, do you agree with that? And two, what is holding Brazil back?
- [17:47]
Scott Galloway
I share that view completely. It is a country that gets in its way every single time. I think the, the reasons are many for why Brazil doesn't actually ever quite take off. It's always on the brink of taking off, and then something happens. A lot of it has to do with, you know, the country's very turbulent history. So Brazil has a history of political crises, economic crises, and, you know, crises that just keep on happening over and over again. Not quite like Argentina, because in Argentina, that situation, by and large has continued to the present day in a way that it hasn't in Brazil. So in Brazil, things have kind of stabilized. If we go back sort of, I don't know, 15 years or so, or maybe even a little longer. You know, it is a country that has by and large at least stabilized itself on the economic front. But politically things continue to be very, very complicated. It's a country that's undergone at least two serious impeachment proceedings, with actual impeachments of sitting president. And the country has been oscillating a lot in the last few years between different political camps. So you've got, you know, your kind of leftist political camp and your right wing political camp. Those two have become more extreme over the last few years. And whenever an election pops around, what we've been seeing in Brazil a lot is that from one election to the other, the pendulum just swings wildly. So it often goes from one end of the spectrum to the other. At least that's what we've seen since about 2018 or so, or maybe slightly before that, 2016, which was the year of former President Dilma's impeachment. So given those circumstances, given the very high levels of uncertainty that exist in the country with respect to the political situation, broadly speaking, and the economic situation, although less so I think that became and has become over the years a very serious impediment for more reforms or other things that the country needs to get a higher standing in global markets. Policy decisions have been very complicated by this ongoing political turbulence. And so all of that kind of underpins the sort of lackluster performance that we've seen in Brazil over, I guess, the last several, several decades at this point.
- [20:29]
Ed
And bringing it back to tariffs and this, I don't know, new complexion or approach to traditional trading partners that the US has adopted as Brazil, I would imagine, feels less of a bond with America and we have been great allies. Who's filling that void? Is it China or is Brazil similar to other countries? Our thesis is that Trump's tariffs or his threats of tariffs have, have, in fact, inspired a flurry of deal making. But our thesis is that the deal making is happening around us, not with us. Any thoughts? Is that a valid thesis? And what do you see happening in Brazil not only with respect to its trade relationship with America, but if and who else is filling that void?
- [21:20]
Scott Galloway
Well, that is definitely a valid thesis. We do see a lot of countries trying to reposition themselves when it comes to global trade and investment and partnerships with different countries around the world, especially as the US has proven to be more and more a kind of unreliable partner, in a sense. And certainly for Brazil, that has been the case this time, because, as I said, you know, the decision, the current decision on the 50% TRFC announcement, as it were, was a complete surprise. I think a complete surprise to everybody there. What Brazil has been doing consistently over the past several years, but that has certainly gained momentum more recently, is becoming closer and closer and forging ever stronger ties with China. So, yes, definitely there is a China element in this equation which absolutely cannot be ignored. And you know, the fact that the tariff announcement came at the heels of the BRICS summit, which was held in Rio, and I was there as that was happening, I don't think that's a coincidence. I mean, I realize that the rationale given for the 50% tariff had nothing to do with the Brics, at least it wasn't outwardly spoken that way. But certainly the fact that the summit was held in Rio recently, that there were a lot of communications about how these countries were trying to come together and form a group that would perhaps have some more significant trade relations in the future, since they don't have much of that now, with the exception of China, Brazil and China ties that certainly has, I believe, served to irk the US Administration somewhat. So I think there's an element here that, you know that that is, that is definitely present. But as for the ties, the economic ties with China, those, as I said, have been growing ever stronger. And in fact what we have seen over the past few years and very recently is a great influx of Chinese investment and Chinese direct investment in the Brazilian economy with the setup of Chinese companies in Brazil. So there are now a lot of Chinese companies that are competing with not only US Companies but also European companies that have been in Brazil for a long time for the domestic Brazilian market, which, as you said, is huge.
- [23:53]
Monica Deboll
We'll be right back after the break. If you're enjoying the show so far and you haven't subscribed, be sure to give Prof. G Markets a follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:10]
Ed
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- [25:40]
Scott Galloway
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- [25:49]
Ed
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- [26:05]
Monica Deboll
Rated T for Teen each year thousands.
- [26:08]
Ed
Of adults lose their shred.
- [26:10]
Scott Galloway
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- [26:17]
Ed
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- [26:18]
Scott Galloway
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- [26:25]
Ed
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- [26:27]
Scott Galloway
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- [26:30]
Ed
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- [26:31]
Scott Galloway
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- [26:41]
Monica Deboll
We'Re back with profit markets.
- [26:43]
Ed
I recognize Brazil is your focus, but I wanted to talk a little bit about Argentina. And that is, granted, it's. It's coming from a pretty bad place. My understanding is at the end of World War II, I think Argentina had the third largest economy. And Argentina has just been. I mean, Brazil, Brazil. While it's kind of the big engine that we keep or the sleeping giant, it feels that like Argentina is just in a coma and wakes up every once in a while to make a really bad decision and then drifts back into an economic coma. And it feels as if Mile is actually. Well, people such as myself, who are progressives are a little bit cringe at some of his statements. I think it's hard to deny that Argentina did need some sort of shock therapy and that he's applying it. And my understanding is that inflation has dropped dramatically and there's a certain amount of optimism around Argentina that we haven't seen in a while. One, do you agree with that? And two, how would you assess the situation, the economic situation in Argentina right.
- [27:44]
Scott Galloway
Now, the underlying structural situation in the Argentinian economy in particular, on the fiscal side, as well as on, you know, many things pertaining to the size of government and the way by which the provinces in Argentina have. Have a kind of autonomy that, you know, always brings about fiscal consequences which make the situation for the country overall extremely hard. There was a need to kind of get into these issues and try to do as much as possible. I'm. I'm avoiding the use of the word reform on purpose because I don't think what has happened in Argentina to date, although it's been a lot and Milei has indeed done a lot, but I wouldn't exactly understand, classify it as a reform as such, because the underlying issues, the underlying political problems between the provinces and the central government, the arrangements that exist between those entities that will eventually backfire on the fiscal accounts, in some sense, none of that is gone. I mean, all of that is still in place. What Milei has done is that he's managed to downsize some parts of the government that significantly needed that downsizing. And so far he's been very successful in sort of managing a fiscal situation that looked untenable two years ago or a little over two years ago. So that has meant. And you know, he's secured an IMF program and all of that has sort of given Argentina, you know, sort of some breathing room. I would say. Where does the country go from here? I think that's the big question, because I don't think anybody really knows. I mean, even for those people who are very optimistic about Argentina's prospect, I think most people realize that there are still significant vulnerabilities that remain in particular. And one thing that I will underscore is the fact that Argentina is a country that operates with two currencies. They have their own currency, the peso, but they use the dollar for everything. And the population at large is so used to the idea that they can count on the US Dollar that it's almost like the dollar is another currency, or almost like. No, I would say it is another currency in Argentina. So basically it's a country that functions with the currency that they issue and with the currency over which they have no control, that one being the dollar. And that is always a problem for them because whenever there's a scarcity of dollars or a lack of dollars in the Argentinian economy, the country flips into crisis mode. Things haven't changed enough for that not to happen. So that kind of crises that we've seen in Argentina over and over again is still a possibility in spite of the many reforms that Milei has put in place.
- [30:39]
Ed
Another one of our big theses for the year is that we would see, I mean, over the last 20 years, my sense is there's been capital flight from the majority of Latin American nations. And as a result, you've had kind of multiple contraction in the stock markets, which is. It's very difficult for any stock or any company to outrun multiple contraction. And you know, unless you're mercado libre, there's just very few stocks that have rewarded investors. And as a result, it's been kind of a doom loop where more and more capital leaves Latin America. And that's this is true globally. Everyone. One's basically been drawing capital out of the market and putting it in US growth. But it appears maybe that the rivers of capital might be reversing flow. 1 Do you see that? And how have markets responded in Latam? Is there a new sense of optimism across the region in terms of its own equity markets?
- [31:38]
Scott Galloway
The region as a whole is so difficult to sort of kind of put under one single umbrella, generalize.
- [31:45]
Ed
Yeah, that.
- [31:46]
Scott Galloway
I think it's more of a country by country story. Right. So when you look, you know, the, when, when you look at the two largest economies. So when you focus on Brazil and Mexico. Yeah, those two countries are very much influenced by global conditions. You know, it matters that global economic uncertainty is currently at an all time high. That of course affects a lot of things for, for both of these economies. But the two, the both of them had been doing actually somewhat better than was expected, I guess a few months ago. And therefore there is some optimism going on both in Mexican markets as well as Brazilian markets in view of this better than expected performance. So in the case of Brazil, which is the country that I'm most familiar with, what we've seen is that economic growth has actually surprised. It's not that great, it's still kind of lackluster, but it has surprised people on the upside. So it's been somewhat better than what was expected. The dynamic in labor markets and what's been happening in labor markets and unemployment in Brazil has also been surprising, surprising people on the upside. And there's also been a good inflation story. Brazil is also a country that faced, just like the US very high inflation a while back. And inflation, you know, kind of stayed at a very high level for a while, but over the past few months it has been coming down gradually. Mind you, Brazil has just about the highest nominal interest rates in the world. So in the central bank has been hiking rates. So interest rates currently stand at 15%, which is really a lot. And that of course is helping to bring down inflation. But having said all of that, the economy at the moment actually looks quite okay in spite of the big fiscal problems that it still needs to solve. But none of those are imminent. And so things are looking quite okay, which has led to this influx of optimism and markets have rallied and things have looked all right. The question is, is this going to continue now with this, with, with this tariff threat on the horizon? We haven't really seen any big moves in relation to that announcement or anything that has really spooked markets at this point. I think everybody sort of, as things usually go with these things, they're waiting it out to see if this is really going to stick or if this is again, one of those things that gets announced and then, you know, it gets back backpedaled or put on the back burner for a while or whatever it is. I think the expectation at the moment is that the 50% is never gonna come to fruition. But if it does, then I would expect to see a bigger impact on markets and also a bigger impact on the currency. The currency has suffered some impact in the last few days, but not nearly as much as would be justified if everybody's seriously concerned about the effects of these tariffs.
- [34:50]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, I'm just looking at the Brazilian stock market trading basically near record highs right now. It's up 13% year to date. Compare that to the S and P, which is less than 7%. So it's basically like doubled the performance of the S and P so far this year. What would you say are like the main tailwinds for Brazil? What are Brazil's main strengths? If you're making a bull case on investing in Brazil, what are you excited about?
- [35:20]
Scott Galloway
Well, there are lots of things actually to be excited about because Brazil is moving quite a bit on the climate agenda. And Brazil has a lot when it comes to opportunities in the energy sector, in renewable energy, or anything that has to do with climate adaptation and transition, Brazil is at the forefront of that game, or at least it's one of the countries, you know, one of the developing countries that should say at the forefront of that game. And it is a country that's very well positioned to do well on climate adaptation issues and on, you know, reforming the economy for climate adaptation. And we have seen that with the, you know, private interest that is coming from abroad in things like green hydrogen, you know, and the development of green hydrogen plants in the northeast of the country, which is something that has been happening and there's really not been any much, much government involvement in that at it's a complete private sector initiative thing that's. That's playing out there. So I think, you know, investors overall see these possibilities very clearly. I think they also see clearly that the. The stronger ties between Brazil and China are bearing fruit for both countries, but are specifically bearing a lot of fruit for Brazil. Brazil has always been dependent on a lot of foreign investment to get things off the ground, to get its own investments off the ground, its own investment agenda off the ground. And the fact that there's now such a big player as China interested and invested, in all senses of that word in Brazil, also gives the country a different footing going forward. And also with respect to attracting investment in capital from abroad, if you had.
- [37:06]
Monica Deboll
To identify the biggest problems for Brazil, I'd love to get your views on just Latin America in general, but I take your point that that is extreme generalization. But when I think about the issues that have ailed Europe as an example, probably. I think the first thing I would say is a lack of innovation. When I look at China, maybe it would be the housing market and perhaps having to be under this authoritarian rule, which has been good for them, but also bad for them at times. In America, probably polarization has been kind of like the big issue. What would you say is the big problem in Brazil right now? And if you can generalize it, in South America, Latin America at large, polarization.
- [37:55]
Scott Galloway
Is definitely a huge one for Brazil and for the region as a whole. And then I would include everybody. It's not even parts of the region. It's for everyone. Okay, so polarization is a big one. A very, very big one. The other one I'd say is pretty complicated as well. And it's more of an economic issue is the fiscal situation that these countries face. Because for every single one of them, what you see, I mean, to varying degrees, all of them have fiscal problems. The nature of the fiscal problem differs. So for some countries it's one thing, for other countries it's another. But by and large, all of them are running high deficits, and all of them have high levels of debt. And that's certainly the case in Brazil. Very high levels of domestic debt, very high deficits, fiscal deficits, which are quite difficult to control in the case of Brazil because there are a lot of expenditure items in the budget which are constitutionally mandated. So you can't exactly cut them down. You can't exactly cut spending in the usual fashion that you would do when you have so much of that spending that is being, you know, is directly linked to constitutional or things that are in the constitution, which obligate the Brazilian government and the Brazilian state to spend such amounts. So you would need a constitutional reform of sorts to properly handle these issues. And then, as I was saying before, the political situation in Brazil being what it is, there certainly isn't going to be any reform of that kind. So the fiscal problems are certainly a bottleneck.
- [39:41]
Monica Deboll
To what extent is that a reflection of the culture of Brazil? And the reason I bring that up is because. Because what you're describing is basically like the opposite problem in Germany, where they have a constitution which basically forces them to not spend. And they're trying to figure out how do we adjust the constitution such that we can spend more money? And we've talked about this on our podcast. We believe that that is very linked to this culture in Germany of austerity and being conservative and being generally worried about the future. So I'd be interested to hear how the fiscal picture in Brazil and in Latin America is reflective of perhaps a cultural scene and whether those two are.
- [40:28]
Scott Galloway
Linked, that's a perfect question, and it is an excellent one. And it has everything to do with the Brazilian case. Because the situation, such as it is, the fiscal situation, comes off of a very troubled history, in a very troubled past past. So the constitutional issues that I was mentioning just now, they go back to what was happening in the country in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s when Brazil had a 20 year military dictatorship, which, you know, stripped people of a lot of a lot of things, a lot of rights, a lot of access to things. And, you know, it was just a very difficult period in Brazil overall. And in 1988, after the country was redemocratized, that happened in 1985. So the military dictatorship was gone in 1985. But then Brazil sort of needed, after 20 years of military dictatorship, Brazil needed a new constitution. And then in 1988, that new constitution came about. And that constitution, which is the current constitution, is one that tried to fix a lot of the problems that Brazil has had had in its past. And in particular it tried to address inequality. It tried to address, you know, the lack of access for part of the population to things like education and health and, you know, giving. Also there was a concern about pensioners and giving pensioners their due. And, you know, so that after years and years of very high inflation during the military dictatorship, when these pensions were eroded so that this would not happen again in the future. The same applies to the minimum wage and to minimum wage legislation that was put in place and things that were enshrined in the constitution with respect to the minimum wage. So all of these things that the formulators of the constitution back in 88 tried to fix because of historical wrongs that were perceived, they kind of went overboard with a lot of that and thus much of the enshrining of spending that we currently see in Brazil that makes it very hard to adjust the budget that really comes from that history. So I'm very glad you asked that question because the link is direct and.
- [42:52]
Monica Deboll
It sounds like, I mean, Javier Milei, who comes out with the giant chainsaw and the idea is he's trying to reverse that trend in Argentina. It feels like he might be, I don't know, maybe an indication of what's to come for the nation surrounding Argentina. I mean, it sounds like that was Argentina's solution to their problem, which was specific, but sounds similar to the issues that you're describing. Do you think that we're going to see more Milei type politicians and leaders in South America.
- [43:29]
Scott Galloway
That is certainly already happening. And in fact, if you look at former president Jair Bolsonaro himself, he was sort of a Milei precursor of sorts. I mean, not exactly, but in some ways, yes, because he was a defender of the so called minimal state. So he really wanted to cut things down to the bare bones, which in Brazil is really hard because like in Argentina too, but in Brazil the situation is a little bit worse when it comes to inequality, the levels of poverty, the. The number of people who are completely excluded from anything. You might imagine. You just can't take a chainsaw to the state like that and expect that, you know, the population is going to be well served by it, because in fact it won't, you know, even given the fact that, you know, some things need to be done on the fiscal side. But how do, how does actually go about that in a country with such high levels of inequality and social injustices all around is not trivial. You know, it is really, really difficult and it needs a properly functioning political system for things to happen. And the lack of that is what kind of leaves Brazil hanging in this situation. And yeah, I mean, Milei like figures are popping up everywhere and I expect that we will see a lot of that going into the 2026 elections in Brazil.
- [44:56]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, I guess the, the distinction that we'd have to make with Milei and which I'd probably give him credit for, is like he campaigned on the. Yeah, he did, but it seems like actually his form of governance is not so much chainsaw and it's a little bit more strategic than that. And also he's not an insurrectionist and he didn't attempt a coup, which is, which is also good. Stay with us.
- [45:30]
Scott Galloway
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- [45:59]
Ed
You brought it back.
- [46:01]
Scott Galloway
Ranch snack wrap.
- [46:02]
Ed
Spicy snack wrap.
- [46:04]
Monica Deboll
You broke the Internet for a snack.
- [46:07]
Scott Galloway
Snack wrap is back. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun.
- [46:23]
Ed
If we made $15 bills, but it.
- [46:25]
Scott Galloway
Turns out that's very illegal.
- [46:29]
Ed
So there goes my big idea for the commercial.
- [46:31]
Scott Galloway
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com.
- [46:48]
Monica Deboll
We'Re back with Prof. G. Markets.
- [46:50]
Ed
So last question for me. If you were to go long, any one of the countries in Latin America, and I'll say, well, I was going to say not including Brazil because I think you, like me, have a bias because you have affection for Brazil. But what country do you think is set for the most success based on where they are at this moment?
- [47:11]
Scott Galloway
Chile, without a doubt.
- [47:12]
Ed
Huh. Was not expecting that.
- [47:14]
Scott Galloway
Well, you know, you Chile is a country, there's a lot of political issues there. There's a lot of political turbulence there. But when I look at Chile as a Brazilian, so as somebody who's from the region and kind of looking across and trying to see, you know, where things seem a little bit more stable, they do seem a little bit more stable in Chile. Now it's not a country that has nearly the same size as, you know, a Brazil or an Argentina or a Mexico. It's a much, much smaller economy. It is an economy that is very dependent, as you know, on mineral exports and in particular on metals and, you know, copper and whatnot, the things that they export. So they're very much subject to whatever is happening in global markets on that front. But all that being said, you know, they did do a very comprehensive reform or economic reform back in the day and they have reaped the fruits from that, you know, over the years. And in that way they have distanced themselves somewhat from the Brazils and Argentinas of the region. So they're a little bit farther ahead than most and I think they're a little bit more resilient than other countries. Now that resilience has, you know, has suffered over time. So it's not the case that, you know, Chile is the same economy or the same country that it was, say, 10, 15 years ago was certainly somewhat stronger at that point. So things have been degrading. But I would say it's still the country that to me looks more politically and economically sound than others, than some of its peers.
- [48:53]
Monica Deboll
If there was anything that you think America and Americans could Learn from Brazil and from Brazilians. What would that be and why?
- [49:04]
Scott Galloway
Well, it's ironic that I would say something like this, but I will say it. Look at our institutions. Our institutions have been working. That is actually something that we haven't seen very often in Brazil, you know, in the institutions working as well as they have been, but they have been working pretty well. And, you know, the fact that the country was able to withstand an attack such as it did in 2023 and kind of come out on the other side, I don't want to say completely, but at least in part is really impressive. And, you know, that does go back to lessons that we learned when we actually had a 20 year dictatorship. So there are things that, you know, have been learned in Brazil and that have been thus used to erect these institutions which are currently solid now. That doesn't mean they can't be destroyed. That can happen. And as a matter of fact, that's what was being attempted back in 2023, and it failed. But it could succeed at some point.
- [50:12]
Monica Deboll
What would those lessons be? What do you think Brazil has gotten right in terms of maintaining institutions, maintaining their integrity? What are they doing that perhaps the US is not doing?
- [50:25]
Scott Galloway
I think the one thing that is very clear is that autocratic regimes, they may actually do fairly well for a little while. So if we look at the experience in Brazil with the dictatorship, we did see a bit of an economic miracle in the late 60s and early 70s, which lasted for about five years or so as a result of this regime coming into being and thus controlling a bunch of things and trying to run the economy all on its own and doing this and doing that and sort of meddling with different things. That seemed to work for about five years. But then the country went into a period, a very lengthy period of more than 15 years because this outlasted the military dictatorship of massive economic turbulence and political turbulence at that. But massive economic turbulence. And that turbulence came in the form of extremely high inflation, very, very high unemployment, a lot of disenfranchising of people. You know, it was just a mass mess. It was a mess. I lived in Brazil while it was a mess. And I can't, I can't overestimate or exaggerate how much of a mess it was. So I do think that, you know, those kinds of experiences, people learn from that and they learn to see, you know, where things have functioned, where they have not, and why it is that, you know, fully autocratic regimes are simply not good. And they may, they may be okay in the short Run. But ultimately they'll bring the country down, and that's what happened there.
- [52:05]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much for joining us. Monica Diboll is the senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, and she's also the host of Policy for the Planet. This was great, Monica, appreciate your time.
- [52:20]
Scott Galloway
Thank you. And thanks so much for having me on the show. I enjoyed it a lot. And, Scott, I'm glad to hear that you're a Brazil fan.
- [52:29]
Ed
Every year. Every year I go with friends to Floripa. I love Sao Paulo. I'm a huge fan of not only Brazil, but there's no way to say this without it sounding douchey. My favorite hotel in the world now is the Rosewood in Sao Paulo. I love the. I used to go to Rio, now I go to Sao Paulo. I absolutely am in love with Brazil and Brazilian people and Brazilian culture and so very much rooting for your homeland.
- [52:57]
Scott Galloway
Thank you. Yeah, we're all hoping that, you know, this will. This will help us. It is helping so far.
- [53:04]
Ed
There you go. Thanks, Monica.
- [53:06]
Scott Galloway
Thank you.
- [53:16]
Ed
Ed, what did you think?
- [53:17]
Monica Deboll
Well, it was really interesting. I thought the most. Probably the most interesting point was this idea of the perils of an autocracy just being fresh in the minds of Brazilians and the idea that that resonates for them when they start to see dictatorship or authoritarianism. It's a lot more scary when you've seen it in your lifetime. And I just wonder if other countries around the world are looking at America and it's bringing up memories of when they were ruled by authoritarians. I don't want to get too pessimistic or doomsday about this, but it is interesting that that is one of the takeaways is that Brazilian institutions, there's more trust in them and more interest in them because of that. I wonder if that brings up any thoughts for you.
- [54:07]
Ed
Well, it's interesting. Brazil appears to have a more resilient democracy than we do right now. Its institutions are holding. They had sort of this Diet Coke insurrection and they immediately charged the president who incited the insurrection, which seems to me what you would need to do. So it's. They have. Obviously, it's an interesting thought. They have such an ugly history around dictators in Latin America and strongmen.
- [54:36]
Monica Deboll
Right.
- [54:37]
Ed
That I wonder if they're. Whereas it's kind of like new and interesting for us. It feels like, yeah, sort of, hey, let's see if this works. Whereas they've kind of been there and I think are having a healthier gag reflex in us right now.
- [54:52]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, it feels like in America we see that and we think, oh, this is forceful. This signifies strength. It's machismo. But I think for others, it's like this is a very slippery slope to a very dark path that has happened over and over again again in history. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Mia Silverio is her research lead. Our research associates are Isabella Kinsel and Dan Shalon. Drew Burrows is our technical director and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Property Markets from the Vox Media podcast network. If you liked what you heard, give us a follow. And join us for a fresh take on market markets on Monday.
- [55:50]
Scott Galloway
And kind reunion.
- [55:59]
Ed
Go. So, Ed, you're. You're taking your girlfriend to Sardinia. And I want you to know on that beautiful blue water and having romantic dinners, you're going to. You're going to think, you know, maybe I should be a more sensitive boyfriend, but I just want to tell you not to go there, that sensitive boyfriends, all that happens is you end up in the car. Are both of you crying in. That parallel parking spot is still empty. I'm on a roll of mediocre jokes today.
- [56:41]
Monica Deboll
Yeah, at least that one feels accurate. That's very true to me.
- [56:46]
Ed
There you go.