Why Chaos Has Become an Economic Strategy — ft. Kyla Scanlon

Summary

Prof G Markets: Why Chaos Has Become an Economic Strategy — Featuring Kyla Scanlon

Podcast Information:

• Title: Prof G Markets
• Host/Author: Vox Media Podcast Network
• Episode: Why Chaos Has Become an Economic Strategy — ft. Kyla Scanlon
• Release Date: February 20, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Prof G Markets, hosted by Vox Media Podcast Network, Scott Galloway and guest Kyla Scanlon delve into the tumultuous strategies shaping today's economic landscape. Although Scott Galloway was briefly out, his insights alongside Kyla Scanlon, author of In This Economy: How Money and Markets Really Work, provide a comprehensive analysis of recent market upheavals and their broader implications.

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Shein's Valuation Decline

Overview: The episode opens with a discussion about Shein, the fast-fashion giant experiencing a drastic drop in valuation from its peak of $100 billion in 2022 to a projected $30 billion IPO. This 70% decline raises concerns about the company's sustainability and underlying business model.

Key Points:

• Investment Uncertainty: Scott Galloway, an investor in Shein, faces challenges as the impending IPO remains uncertain. The significant drop in valuation calls into question the company's future prospects.

• Tax Law Implications: The decline is attributed primarily to former President Donald Trump's suspension of the de minimis provision, a crucial tax loophole that allowed Shein and other Chinese companies to operate profitably in the U.S. without incurring taxes on shipments below $800. As Galloway explains, this tax exemption was foundational to Shein's business model:

  "Scott has invested in Shein, and with the de minimis provision under threat, it's a significant blow to their IPO plans." [04:51]

Notable Quote:

"Exploiting tax loopholes is a great business model until it isn't. And that's exactly what's happened here." — Scott Galloway [04:51]

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Deepseek Banned in South Korea

Overview: The conversation shifts to the temporary ban of the AI app Deepseek in South Korea due to serious privacy and security concerns. This move underscores increasing global skepticism towards Chinese technology firms.

Key Points:

• Security Flaws: Deepseek's encryption is notably weak, making it four times more vulnerable to hacks compared to ChatGPT. Multiple data leaks have already been reported.

• Government Response: South Korea's decision to block the app is seen as a proactive measure to protect its citizens, especially given the app's data being stored on Chinese government servers. This sets a precedent that may lead other countries, including the U.S., to follow suit.

Notable Quote:

"Deepseek is not worth the risk. South Korea's got this right." — Scott Galloway [05:01]

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Argentina's Meme Coin Scandal

Overview: President Javier Milei of Argentina found himself embroiled in controversy after promoting a cryptocurrency, Libra Coin, which led to a rapid spike and equally swift crash in its market value. This incident has severe implications for Milei's credibility and Argentina's economy.

Key Points:

• Rapid Inflation of Libra Coin: Initiated to support local projects, Libra Coin's market cap soared to $4 billion within minutes before plummeting by 70% as early investors sold off their holdings.

• Legal and Financial Repercussions: Milei now faces lawsuits and potential impeachment for his role in promoting what many perceive as a rug pull scheme orchestrated by anonymous developers.

• Economic Impact: The Argentinian stock index fell by 6% following the scandal, shaking investor confidence and necessitating a prolonged recovery period for Milei's administration.

Notable Quote:

"This loophole on which this entire business was built is now under threat." — Scott Galloway [04:51]

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Interview with Kyla Scanlon: The Economics of Gen Z

Overview: Kyla Scanlon joins the discussion to provide insights into how the current economic strategies affect Generation Z. Her expertise sheds light on the unique challenges faced by young people in today's volatile market environment.

Key Topics Discussed:

1. Phaphonomics – Chaos as a Strategy:

   • Definition: Kyla introduces the term "Phaphonomics," derived from "F around and find out," describing a strategy where chaos is deliberately employed to disrupt and realign economic systems.
   • Impact: This approach leads to rapid policy changes and market disruptions, creating an unpredictable environment for investors and consumers alike.

2. Gen Z's Economic Sentiment:

   • Labor Market Concerns: Gen Z is increasingly anxious about job stability, the relevance of their degrees, and the impact of AI on future employment opportunities.
   • Affordability Issues: Rising costs of education and housing make traditional paths to prosperity less attainable, leading many to seek alternative career paths such as trades or speculative investments like cryptocurrency.

3. Measuring Economic Well-Being:

   • Core Score: Kyla emphasizes the importance of metrics beyond GDP, such as housing affordability, healthcare access, and education quality, to accurately gauge economic health.

Notable Quotes:

"Young people are not sure what their place is in the economy anymore." — Kyla Scanlon [28:27]

"Gen Z believes a successful income is $588,000, highlighting a disconnect between reality and expectations." — Scott Galloway [26:41]

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Strategies for Gen Z in a Chaotic Economy

Adaptability and Continuous Learning: Kyla and Scott discuss the necessity for Gen Z to remain adaptable, continuously update their skill sets, and stay informed about technological advancements to navigate the unpredictable economic landscape.

Risk Management: They advocate for a balanced approach to career and investment decisions, encouraging young people to pursue passions while maintaining financial stability through diversified income sources and prudent investments.

Building a Resilient Economic Future: Emphasizing structural changes, the conversation highlights the need for increased housing construction, better access to healthcare, and educational reforms to create a more supportive environment for economic growth.

Notable Quote:

"Being adaptable and ready, being a learner and not a learned person is key." — Kyla Scanlon [30:48]

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Conclusion

This episode of Prof G Markets provides a sobering analysis of how chaos is being leveraged as an economic strategy, impacting major corporations like Shein, emerging technologies like Deepseek, and national economies as seen in Argentina's recent scandal. With Kyla Scanlon's insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the challenges faced by Gen Z and the critical measures needed to foster economic resilience in an era defined by uncertainty and rapid change.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• "Exploiting tax loopholes is a great business model until it isn't." — Scott Galloway [04:51]
• "Deepseek is not worth the risk. South Korea's got this right." — Scott Galloway [05:01]
• "This loophole on which this entire business was built is now under threat." — Scott Galloway [04:51]
• "Young people are not sure what their place is in the economy anymore." — Kyla Scanlon [28:27]
• "Gen Z believes a successful income is $588,000, highlighting a disconnect between reality and expectations." — Scott Galloway [26:41]
• "Being adaptable and ready, being a learner and not a learned person is key." — Kyla Scanlon [30:48]

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Final Thoughts

Prof G Markets continues to offer valuable perspectives on the dynamic and often unpredictable nature of global markets. This episode underscores the importance of understanding underlying economic strategies and their far-reaching effects, especially for the younger generation stepping into an increasingly complex financial world.

Transcript

[Snoop Dogg]

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[Scott Galloway]

Da da da da da.

[Snoop Dogg]

Yeah you can save on wireless and.

[Scott Galloway]

Streaming versus the other big guys.

[Snoop Dogg]

@T mobile.com/apple intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3. Will that be cash or credit? Credit. 4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting so you can do you get [e-mail] compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. This episode is brought to you by Nerds Gummy Clusters, the sweet treat that always elevates the vibe with a sweet gummy surrounded with tangy, crunchy nerds. Every bite of Nerds Gummy Clusters brings you a whole new world of flavor. Whether it's game night, on the way to a concert, or kicking back with your crew, unleash your senses with Nerds Gummy Clusters.

[Scott Galloway]

Welcome to Profgy Markets. Scott is out this week. I believe he is in Switzerland or Austria or somewhere. He's skiing. He's not with us. He's slacking. That's basically what's happening. So I'm filling in this week. I'm speaking with Kyla Scanlon, the author of in this Economy How Money and Markets Really Work. And we'll be talking about the economics of our generation, which is Gen Z. But before we get into the show, just a reminder, Scott and I will be recording a live episode of Prof. G Markets from the Vox Media Podcast stage at south by Southwest on March 10. We had an incredible time last year. I was just shocked by the feedback and also just how many of you showed up. It was incredible for us, but we need to make this year even bigger. So we hope you will attend. If you want more info on how to go to the recording, go to voxmedia.com SXSW that's voxmedia.com SXSW. And with that, let us get into the headlines. Now is the time to buy. I hope you have plenty of the wherewithal. Shein's shareholders are urging the company to slash its valuation to around $30 billion. That's down significantly from its peak of $100 billion in 2022, according to those familiar with the matter. Some shareholders believe the valuation cut is necessary to get the IPO over the finish line. South Korea has temporarily blocked new downloads of Deepseek over privacy concerns. Regulators said the app will be reinstated on Apple and Google app stores once Deepseek complies with the country's personal data protection laws. And finally, Argentina's president, Javier Milei is facing lawsuits and potential impeachment after promoting a meme coin on X. The coin briefly soared to a $4 billion market value, only to crash within hours of its launch. The coin's creators are accused of a rug pull scheme where developers launch and promote a token and then cash out as its value peaks. Okay, so let's start with Shein. Shein is down to $30 billion, reportedly. Valuation. The first thing I can tell you, Scott Galloway is not going to be happy. As many of you probably know, Scott is an investor in Shein. I actually don't know how much he invested. I also don't know what the terms were on his investment. I don't know what the valuation was. And we will find out. We'll make sure we ask him when he comes back. What I do know, though, is that the last time Shein was valued, it was worth 66 billion, and the year before that, it was worth 100 billion. So we're now looking at a $30 billion IPO that is a 70% decline in less than three years. This not good news for Sheehan. Now, why is this actually happening? We've heard a lot of people say that it's, you know, market conditions, there's supply chain issues, there's issues with the logistics on the ipo. Maybe that's true, but I think most of this is a distraction from the real issue, which is Donald Trump and more specifically, Trump's suspension of this tax law that we've talked about, known as the de minimis provision.

[Snoop Dogg]

American consumers will soon see the effects of President Trump's new tariffs on Chinese goods, especially if they shop online at discount stores like T and Sheen.

[Scott Galloway]

So what is the de minimis provision? This is a rule that we have in the US for any shipments that come into the US if they're worth less than $800 then you don't have to pay taxes. And this was originally designed so that Americans could go on vacation and go and buy souvenirs and bring them back and it would be duty free. But instead what happened is we had all these foreign e commerce companies who realized, okay, if we can make our products really cheap, if we can make sure that every order is below $800, then we can access the US economy, we can access the American consumer and not have to pay taxes. And so that is why in the past decade, the total value of de minimis shipments in the US has gone from $40 million to 40 billion dol. And more than 30% of those shipments come from two companies. And those companies are Temu, which you've probably heard of. And yes, Shein. So in other words, this tax law is the backbone of Sheehan's business model. So Trump has threatened to end this. He knows how important this tax exemption is to China. He knows how important it is to Chinese companies. And if he does end, would likely ruin Sheehan's business. So this has always been one of my problems with Shein as an investment is that their key differentiator isn't any form of technological innovation. Their differentiator is their willingness to exploit a loophole in the US Tax code. Now, as we know, exploiting tax loopholes is a great business model until it isn't. Until something in the tax code changes. And that's exactly what's happened here. This loophole on which this entire business was built is now under threat. And until we have clarity on what will happen to the de minimis provision, I don't think this company can go public because we simply can't know what the business is going to look like. So, Scott, if you're listening to this right now, I think it's going to be a long time until this company actually IPOs. It was supposed to IPO this April. That was the goal. It's now looking like it's going to be delayed a lot longer. And if I had to put my money on it, my bet would be that an IPO is probably going to come in 2026. But maybe I'm wrong. And let me know if you think so, and you can always hold me to account. Now, let's talk about what's happening with Deepseek in South Korea. So South Korea has temporarily blocked new downloads of Deep Seat. We don't know if this ban is going to last longer. I think this is the right move from South Korea, and I'm honestly surprised it didn't happen sooner. The reality with Deepseek is, yes, it's cheap, yes, it uses fewer chips, yes, its reasoning capabilities are highly advanced. But it is also unbelievably insecure as a technology. It's one of the most compromised technologies we've ever seen. Its encryption is the weakest in the industry. It is, according to research, four times more vulnerable to hacks than ChatGPT. We've already had multiple data leaks and Wiz has published some pretty concerning research on this, too. And on top of all of that, their data is stored in the servers of the Chinese government. And Deepseek has openly said this. So if you're a nation like South Korea that has even a slightly frosty relationship with China, there's practically no reason you shouldn't ban this. It really isn't worth the risk. There really isn't any upside in hosting a Chinese chatgpt that threatens the privacy and security of your citizens. And by the way, OpenAI's ChatGPT is banned in China. So South Korea is one of the first countries to do this. I think in the next couple months, we're going to start to see a torrent of other countries banning Deep Sea. And I think the first country we could probably expect this from is America. You know, if Trump wants to go through with this whole reciprocity thing, then Deep Seek is probably the best place to start. And in fact, we are starting to see some state legislation that is banning Deep Seq on government devices. So Greg Abbott in Texas, he issued a ban. Kathy Hochul in New York, she issued a ban. And so did Glenn Youngkin in Virginia. So to me, this is sort of a no brainer. I cannot see any meaningful upside in keeping this app around. But perhaps I'm missing something, and if I am, let me know in the comments and we can have that debate. But as of now, the stance for me is quite simple. Deepseek is not worth this risk. South Korea's got this right. Deep Seek should be banned. And finally, let's talk about what happened with President Javier Milei, the President of Argentina. This story is honestly insane to me. Let's just start with the timeline of what actually happened. So on Friday, a website was launched promoting this project called the Viva la Libertad Project. And the mission was, quote, to boost the Argentine economy by funding small projects and local businesses. Now, exactly how this would be accomplished was not clear. It wasn't really mentioned anywhere. And in conjunction with that project, there was a cryptocurrency that launched called Libra or Libra Coin. And just a side note, it was launched on this platform called FixFloat, which notably does not ask for any personal identification. Everyone is anonymous and it is most commonly used for, for scamming and rug pulling. So it's a very shady start. To begin with. None of this really mattered though, until half an hour later, the President of Argentina, Javier Milei, tweeted out the news of Libra and Libra Coin and He directed his 4 million followers on where they could go online and buy the token. And within 45 minutes, the market cap of Libra went from virtually nothing to four and a half billion billion. Now, to put that in context, that would make Libra, this cryptocurrency, the ninth most valuable company in Argentina. Within an hour, one and a half billion dollars worth of Libra Coin was transacted between buyers and sellers. Then all of a sudden, the early investors started to sell and the value of Libra plummeted. And after one hour, Libra had lost 70% of its value until eventually President Milei deleted his tweets and he apologized for what happened. He said, quote, I was not informed of the fine details of the project, and after learning, I decided not to continue spreading it. But by that time, the damage had already been done. 75% of the investors lost money, and according to the on chain data, many lost up to $10,000, some lost up to $100,000. So the financial damage here is once again just enormous. And the winners, of course, there are always winners with these crypto tokens. The winners were the developers of Libra, who sold at exactly the right time. Many of them made millions and one of them netted almost $9 million in profit. So I think what we have here is the same dynamic we had with Trump Coin, where the power of a presidency, in this case Argentina's presidency, was abused to essentially trick people into wiring their money to a handful of anonymous individuals with no financial protection, no recourse. And it's unlikely that these people will ever see their money back. I doubt it will ever happen. And this is exactly why I personally don't like crypto. I think it's one of the most useless and the most destructive technologies of our time. And when you put it in the hands of the wrong people, they can levy extreme damage on a lot of people who don't really know what's happening. And I think that's what happened here, probably. I don't think this was a malicious operation by President Milei. I don't think he was behind the scenes orchestrating this. I mean, he deleted the tweet. He eventually expressed regret. I think the most likely scenario is that he got tricked. And that's a shame because so far Milei has actually done quite a good job. He's brought inflation way down, he's brought wages way up, he's expanded the Argentine economy. I was with Argentinians this weekend and they were huge fans of President Milei. He's doing everything he really should be doing. But now that this has happened, this is a huge hit to his credibility because it basically means one of two things. Either he's a scammer himself, which I don't believe, but it's possible, or he's easily duped by scammers. And neither of those things reflect very well on him or on Argentina. It's a massive sign of weakness. And so what happened? As soon as the markets opened, the Argentinian stock index fell 6%. And this is exactly the kind of thing that rattles investors. So it's now being investigated in the courts. We'll soon find out what actually happened and what he actually knew about this Libra coin. But what is clear is that this is going to be a very long road to recovery and this is certainly the lowest point so far in the Javier Milei presidency. We'll be right back after the break for our conversation with Kyla Scanlon. If you're enjoying the show so far, be sure to give Profg Markets a follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Snoop Dogg]

Foreign.

[Kyla Scanlon]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Snoop Dogg]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Galloway]

So we're exactly one month into the Trump presidency. A lot has happened. We've had tariffs, Doge, we've had drama with Greenland. I mean, the list kind of goes on, I guess. What has stood out to you so far and what have been kind of your main takeaways from this presidency so far?

[Snoop Dogg]

I think the main thing that I've taken away is there's kind of this element of fafonomics is sort of what I calling it, where people are like really effing around and really finding out in a very big way. Like that's what you see with Doge, with some of these maybe hasty firings and then the subsequent rehirings that have to happen, like with nuclear safety workers. So I think what we're seeing is just an administration that's moving pretty fast and moving without maybe any acknowledgement of potential guardrails and just kind of a gutting happening at the, at the federal level at a pace that we really have never seen before. And I think a lot of people are a bit worried about what that could mean. A lot of people are excited because they want to see, you know, debt levels go down. But I think the underlying worry then is, well, you know, if you got the government from the inside out and have to rebuild it, it could be quite expensive. So I think right now everybody has more questions than answers. There's tremendous amounts of uncertainty and you can really just feel that percolating.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. You mentioned that term phaphonomics, which I've read about and which I love. Could you just spell out exactly what that means for us?

[Snoop Dogg]

Well, it means F around and find out. So the idea is chaos as a strategy. Right. And so you're just going to sort of go full steam ahead and see what you can unplug and then see what stops working once you unplug it and then maybe figure out a way to plug it back in. And so that's the general strategy is just effing around. And that's a very crude, introductive way to say it, but it maybe is a decent summary.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, chaos as a strategy sounds about right to me. Why do you think we have reached that point? Why do you think people are attracted to this chaos as a strategy system that we seem to be reverting to right now?

[Snoop Dogg]

I think that there's a lot of distrust in institutions. And so you see things like the Spring 2024 Harvard Youth Public Opinion Poll where they asked young people, what institutions do you trust in? And trust in? All institutions except for the United nations was down by double digit percents. Trust in the media, trust in the White House, trust in Congress. And so I think you have this base of people who just don't trust in the possibility of things getting done. And so that drives, you know, actions like Doge is able to take. Like people support that because it's like, well, nothing else seems like it's working. And so you have that lack of trust. And then you have the echo chambers that can be created by social media where people are hearing that, you know, this sort of strategy is the best way to approach it. There's a lot of misinformation flying around right now, like with Social Security payments and an understanding of what nuclear safety workers do. So I think it's that, like there's this, this lack of belief and that's compounded by the systems that we engage in every single day. You know, the algorithms perhaps perpetuating that even more.

[Scott Galloway]

One of the big themes you talk a lot about is this idea of the Vibe session. A lot of people love that term. And basically what that means is this disconnect between the reality of the economy versus the way people feel about the economy. And it was very relevant last year when you had low consumer sentiment. But at the same time, the economic data was actually quite strong. I'd just be interested to hear what you think about where we are today. Do you think we are still in a Vibe session? Is there still a disconnect between how people feel about the economy versus how the economy actually is going right now, or do you think we've kind of come to our senses?

[Snoop Dogg]

I mean, I think the big thing with the Vibe session is we did see, and I wrote about this in my newsletter, like, we did see aspects of the Vibe session show up in the electoral data. Like, part of the reason that people voted for Trump is Because they were like, I'm sick of this economy. I'm really tired. Like, I just wish somebody would make it easier to afford a house. And that's like so valid. Like, part of the Vibe session is the data might not be telling the whole story. Like, aspects of structural affordability, like housing and childcare and elder care are very important and they impact people's lives and they're extraordinarily expensive. And so with the Bob session itself, at least right now, those things are still extraordinarily expensive. And we also saw, of course, a partisan flip in sentiment. Like, Republicans are now feeling quite good about the economy. Democrats are feeling quite bad. This happens pretty much every election cycle. And we haven't seen things really take impact on the economy yet. Like now that so many workers have been fired and we could have inflationary pressure due to tariffs, that could create a bad economic environment where totally valid to have maybe negative consumer sentiment. But the whole goal with the Vibe session story is to really talk about what data are we using to measure the economy? Is it the right data? And so in that capacity, who knows if we're still in one or not? But I think that the sentiment has always been a bit strange to measure.

[Scott Galloway]

What would you say are the most important pieces of data that we should be looking at? I mean, I feel like, you know, when we say, oh, the economy's doing well, oftentimes we're saying, you know, GDP is expanding or inflation has come down. But then you look at the price of houses and the fact that none of our generation is even close to being able to afford a home. And perhaps that's what we should be looking at. Like, what do you think is most important when it comes to measuring or taking our temperature as a nation and checking in? How well are we doing?

[Snoop Dogg]

This is a good question too. The American Academy of Arts and Sciences has a new paper that they released last year called the Core Score. And I worked a little bit to develop some videos around it. But the whole idea is how do we measure economic well being? And it's looking at things like housing, it's looking at things like healthcare. And I think that sort of stuff is important because it gets beyond just gdp, which is like consumer spending and things like that, just outlays. And I think if we can sort of get a little bit more granular in how people are actually experiencing the economy, which is what the Core Score and nonpartisan effort tries to do, that's a better way to actually figure out what's happening and how people are feeling and then we can address the problems a little bit more head on. Clearly, housing is a massive, massive problem. You don't need the core score to tell you that. But then the question becomes, well, how do we build more housing? And I think that's also a measure of economic success. Not just how the economy is performing, but what are we doing in the future to make it perform even better? Things like building more housing, having more access to healthcare and education, et cetera.

[Scott Galloway]

People are very interested in Gen Z. All of a sudden it feels, I mean, they really want to know how we think. Probably because we're now entering the workforce and suddenly we're all a bit more relevant. I'd like to get your view. How do you think Gen Z feels about the economy right now? What do you think is most top of mind for our generation?

[Snoop Dogg]

So I have been on the road traveling for the past eight months talking about my book and I have had the opportunity to talk to a lot of young people across 25 different states about how they're feeling about the economy. And I think the main thing that I'm hearing is people are really concerned about the labor market. Like when you talk to kids and, or students, not kids in college, a lot of the times it's, you know, it's like, well, I'm getting all of these skills, but when I graduate, like this could be a totally useless degree. Like look at what happened with software engineering, which was supposed to be this really safe way to go. And so you see a lot of young people going into the trades. Like Wall Street Journal had this article called Gen Z is the Tool Belt Generation. And where I'm from in Kentucky, like you're seeing this massive move towards the trades. And so I think that is how young people are feeling about the economy is they're not sure what their place is in it anymore. They're not sure where they fit. Partially because, you know, the growth of AI, partially because we are seeing some dismantling of the and there's uncertainty about what jobs are going to be left there as well. And then you also have, I know you all talk about this a lot on the podcast, but like you have these get rich quick schemes that work like meme coins. And so when you look at these two things, like you have maybe the ROI on a college education doesn't seem as powerful as it once was. And then you have the ability to make a ton of money on what is, you know, essentially could be called a scam. It super confusing. And so I think that's what young people are really dealing with is the world is rapidly changing and the world is always changing, but it feels like it's changing really fast right now.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, just some stats we could point to here. I mean, the cost of college is just gotten out of control. And just this stat. For my grandparents, the annual cost of college was 13% of their income. For our generation it's 43%. And then if you look at housing, the average cost of a home for my grandparents generation was three times their annual income. For us, it's seven times. So it does just feel as if Gen Z is a lot poorer than our parents and certainly their parents. What do you think our generation can do about this? I mean, how are we supposed to navigate a world where we've been told, you know, these are the rules of the game and then suddenly we go out into the world and the rules appear to be completely different and completely irrelev and certainly not applicable to the lives that our parents led. What do we do about that?

[Snoop Dogg]

Yeah, I'm trying, I'm working on this piece right now, like trying to iron out those details. And I think the thing is like you can have a middle path. Like there's sort of this barbell effect where you have people like going into the trades and being like, I just hope this works. And like there's so much value in that. And then you have people who are going after, you know, the meme coins, cryptocurrency, trading, et cetera. And I think there's a middle path where you can use AI to enhance your job, use it to enhance your career, figure out where things are. Things aren't going to change that quickly, but I think what will be required over the next couple of months, and this is what I've said at the universities that I've been able to speak to, is you have to be adaptable. You have to learn new tools really quickly. You have to be on top of all the new technology that's coming out so you can figure out how to integrate it into the work that you're doing now or be prepared for when that job might change or shift. Vice President J.D. vance said that he hopes that their plan is that AI will be a compliment, not a replacement. So at least at the federal level that seems to be the goal, is not to have AI replace people. But I think people just have to be prepared for all possible outcomes and being adaptable, being ready, being a learner and not a learned person is key. Yeah, it's very soapboxy but that's where I've landed. Yeah. Do you have thoughts on that? Like, as a person who's also navigating the economy?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I think where you're also headed is you have to completely adjust your expectations. And I think one of the big problems for our generation is that from being online all the time, our expectations have been completely nuked about what we can actually expect professionally and in our lives. This survey that I just saw, which I just found crazy, they asked all these different generations what they thought a successful income is. And I just want to read you these stats here. So for baby boomers, the baby boomers believe that a successful income is on average $100,000. For Gen X, it is $212,000. For millennials, it is $180,000. And for Gen Z, it's, it's $588,000. That's what we believe success is. And this just tells me that, I mean, it tells me that something is broken in our brains, certainly about how we think about money. I'd love to get your take on what do you think is broken and maybe to what extent is this a function of the fact that we have lived the majority of our lives, pretty much our entire lives online.

[Snoop Dogg]

So I saw that survey too, and I think the main thing for me was like the cost of a house. Like, if you ever want to own a home, like it really is, it's so expensive, especially in city centers where I think a lot of young people either have to live or want to live for work. And so I think that's part of what we're seeing there. But then there's also, and this is more speculative, but there is a lack of kind of a social safety net in the US now more so than ever. Like, there is worries that Social Security will be. There won't be enough, so people are paying into a system that they might not benefit from. And so I think the idea is like, there has to be that extra income now because if you fall, you're falling so far and falling so flat. And I think people can really feel that, especially young people. We saw the government step up, like during the pandemic when people weren't able to work and there was unemployment, but then all those things were rolled back as well. And I think that's the other thing is like we, we have seen the government provide, and this was during Biden's era, and then stop all of that. And so I think young people just really feel that quite viscerally and also the path to prosperity. It's not as straightforward as it once was. Not that the boomer's path was like incredibly clear, but there was an idea that like you would have a a pretty predictable return on education. You'd have a predictable path to buying a house, like a predictable time in the labor market. Of course they dealt with stagflation and mega high interest rates, but there was more predictable wealth progression where I think for young people it's like, well, if I don't get in on the Argentinian meme coin, who knows what could happen.

[Scott Galloway]

We'll be right back and if you're enjoying the show so far, hit follow and leave us a review on Prof. GM Markets.

[Snoop Dogg]

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Now for up to 40% off site wide. Blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply. We're back with Prof. G Markets. You've also said that Gen Z can be broken up into three groups, which I found interesting. You said each one having, quote, a differing relationship to digital reality. What are these three groups in Gen Z in your view? And how do they behave differently?

[Snoop Dogg]

Yeah, so there this woman named Rachel Jonfaza posted a graphic on Twitter talking about Gen Z 1.0 and Gen Z 2.0. And then Derek Thompson of the Atlantic just published an article talking about Generation C, this like, subsegment of Generation Z, which is conservative. And so Gen Z 1.0 and Gen Z 2.0 is kind of like the pre and post Covid. So Rachel, has it broken up? You graduated high school pre Covid and Gen Z 2.0. You graduated high school post Covid. And when I read this graphic, I was like, well, I think there's actually three where there's the gen Z 1.0, which I'm a part of. Like I'm an old Gen Z. And so I remember a world that was analog. Like my first phone was a flip phone. And then there's the Gen Z 1.5, which is the COVID cohort. You know, their really formative years were shaped by Covid. For me, as a bridge generation, I graduated from college into the pandemic. So a little bit of a different experience than being in high school or college during the pandemic. And then there's The Gen Z 2.0s, which are the digital natives. They have never known a world without smartphones. And the digital infrastructure is basically reality. Right? Like, it's not a second layer, it's the. The full reality. And so that's kind of the way that I'm think thinking about it. And they have all had massively different experiences with digital realities and massively different development experiences too. And that's just shaped how they think about the world, how they think about their economic opportunity, and how they think about society at large.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, it's almost. There are varying degrees of how online each generation is, and we are becoming increasingly extremely online, which is. Is the technical term for it. And there's also, in that term, an implication that if you're extremely online, you have a tendency to overemphasize the importance of the digital world, or you see everything through the digital world and it sort of distorts your perspective. But, you know, I'm curious, from your perspective, as someone who has kind of built a career online and achieved a lot of success from posting on TikTok, from posting on social media, which has led to all of these other opportunities. How important do you think is it that we take digital seriously? Is this something that everyone our age needs to be thinking about? Do we all need to be getting out there on social media and living our lives online? Or do you think it's breaking us and causing us Too much of a distraction.

[Snoop Dogg]

I think it's both. Like, I always say that I'm a hypocrite because whenever I talk about social media, I try to talk about it from both angles. Like, I think of it as a tool. Like, the fact that I'm able to talk about economics to, you know, hundreds of thousands of people every day. Like, that's using social media as a tool, and it's reaching people that maybe wouldn't have had access to economics education wherever they're living. And so I think social media is a tool, number one, but then I definitely think it can shape us for the worse. The problem with algorithms is they really, like, rage and they really, like anger. And that's just what does. Well, because a lot of people respond and then everyone's yelling, and it's kind of counterproductive. And so I. I think that's what I worry about with social media is it just. It does fuel the. The rage and it fuels the anger. And a lot of people way smarter than I have have written about this and have documented this. Like, we are angry and we are lost and we are confused, partially because it is so easy to go get lost inside of an algorithm. And so I am a hypocrite. But I think there's a lot of power to social media. Like, I've learned a lot just from connecting with people. I have all of this opportunity because it exists. And I think I hopefully am doing good work to try and help people understand what's going on economically. But there's absolutely a bad side to it. And that bad side, if the incentives are misaligned, which you could argue that they are right now, can be very, very bad indeed.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, you get a lot of feedback from being online in a way that I think other financial media personalities probably don't. What are some of the main concerns people have, either maybe on your YouTube channel or on your social media? What do you think are the main things that young people are thinking about right now, and how are they responding to your content?

[Snoop Dogg]

A lot of the DMs I get are young people trying to position themselves. They're like, well, should I try and buy a house now and then be okay in the future? How should I think about my job? How should I think about my education? How should I think about inflation? And so I think a lot of people are trying to contextualize what's happening to the economy, to their real life. So I get a lot of questions about things like that and try to talk people through that. As much as I can. And so that, that's what I've noticed is there really is this beautiful, genuine curiosity from people to understand the system that we live in better. I think it's a total tragedy. I don't think it's kind of a tragedy that we don't teach economics, considering that it's all something that we have to live in every single day. And so I think most people are just trying to sift through the noise to figure out where the signal is.

[Scott Galloway]

What would your advice be for someone in that situation? I mean, you're 27 years old, you've written a book, you've been featured in Bloomberg and the New York Times and all of these other publications. You've kind of done it all at a very young age. What would be your advice, your career advice to any young people listening to this podcast right now?

[Snoop Dogg]

Yeah, I mean, I think the career advice is what I was talking about earlier. Like, being adaptable and then trying to do something that you love. Like, people say, don't let your passions be your job.

[Scott Galloway]

And Scott's guilty.

[Snoop Dogg]

Yeah, I know, yeah. Um, no offense to Scott, but I do, I actually think we talked about that when I was on the podcast last, but I, I, I don't know. I, I just, like, I think that if there's something that you really care about and you would like, it's sort of a regret minimization framework. Like, if there's something that you really want to do and there's something you really want to try, like, make sure it's stable for you to try it. Like, I, when I first started out, I made a total mistake where I had zero safety net. And I just was like, I'm gonna try doing social media, which was not smart. And luckily I was able to sort it out. But there's smarter ways and more risk minimization ways to approach it. But that's what I would say is try to implement regret minimization. Would you regret not trying this thing? Is there a way to try this thing safely? What do you actually care about seeing in the world at the end of the day? There's also totally a world where a job is a job and maybe that job helps you pursue your passions on the side, and the passions aren't the main focus. And so I think it's just figuring out where your own personal risk tolerance is, what you want to focus on on the day to day. And there's no wrong answer. It's just, do you have the framework in place to pursue what you want to pursue.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you think is the greatest misconception that older generations have about Gen Z, about our generation? What is it? What are we like that people don't seem to recognize?

[Snoop Dogg]

I get asked this a lot too, because that's the goal is like everybody just kind of wants to understand what everyone else is thinking about most of the time. And so I think for the older generation, they're like, I just don't really know how to communicate to younger people. I feel like I'm not getting through to them. I feel like they're not listening. I get a lot of people telling me that the younger generation doesn't work hard enough, that they're always distracted, that they're pretty lazy. And I think what's tough about that is it really is a carrot and stick kind of problem. Like, I think there has to be incentives in place for younger people to work, work hard. It isn't as simple as maybe it was when other people, boomers maybe were starting out where it was like, I'm going to stay at this company for 40 years, I have a sick pension. It's going to be amazing. The incentive model is different and so you have to create those incentives internally for people to have that same passion at work. So much easier said than done. But I think that's the main thing that people tend to miss out is young people are just living in a vastly different economic system and so they're going to respond very differently to workplace incentives because it doesn't feel the same.

[Scott Galloway]

Kyla Scanlan is the founder of a financial education company, bred and a creator. She writes a weekly newsletter, makes YouTube videos, hosts the let's Appreciate podcast, and posts almost daily short form videos about the economy and markets. Her first book, in this Economy How Money and Markets Really Work, is available now. Thank you very much Kyla. This was really fun.

[Snoop Dogg]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Galloway]

This episode was produced by Claire Miller and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our associate producer is Alison Weiss. Mia Silverio is our research lead, Isabella Kinsel is our research associate, Drew Burrows is our technical director and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Prof. G Markets from the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you liked what you heard, give us a follow and join us for a fresh take on markets on Monday.

[Snoop Dogg]

You have me in kind. Reunion as the World Turns and the.