Rob Alvarez (1:15)

Hey, this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I'm Rob Alvarez, I' consultant, I'm a coach and I'm the founder here at Professor Game. And I'm also a professor of gamification and game inspired solutions at IE University, IE Business School, efmd, EBS University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, you're struggling with engagement in your business and are looking to find out how to make your users stay with you. You will find our free community full of resources quite useful. You can find it for free in the links below in the description.

Podcast Host (1:58)

So engagers. Welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And today we have Matt with us. But Matt, we first need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Matt Dalio (2:09)

I am already engaged.

Podcast Host (2:12)

Let's do this. Matt Dalio. Dalio. How should I say? Dalio Dalio Dalio, the founder of Endless Studios, which is fighting for a world in which every kid is a creator. Endless Studios is a youth game making studio built to introduce youth to 21st century skills like coding and design. And his mantra is that if you can engage them, then you can actually.

Matt Dalio (2:35)

Teach them that word engage. It's in there.

Podcast Host (2:40)

His second mission is to make that available to everyone in the world by addressing the device and Internet gap, which is the work of Endless Foundation. He dreams of a world in which every kid can shape their technology instead of being shaped by the technology. Does that make sense? Am I missing anything on your intro?

Matt Dalio (2:58)

That's it right there. There's a lot in there, but that's a good summary.

Podcast Host (3:03)

So, Matt, what would your day look like if we were sort of shadowing you around or your day or your week? I don't know, whatever you want to go for. Typical day, typical week or in general, like, if we were to follow you around, what would that feel like?

Matt Dalio (3:18)

My, my life is a little bit of chaos because there are just so many parallel threads going on. We have a company, we have a nonprofit that runs programs, we have a grant making nonprofit and we have just started doing a little bit of investing and all of that around the same core thesis that building games can teach. But what the result of that is is that there's just kind of this, like, it's this juggling act. Someone once described it as like, you know, that those, like chess masters that go around the circle playing 20 games of chess at once. I'm by no means a chess master, but often my life feels like going around the circle and like, you know, kind of every day is just, you know, every meeting is, you know, playing another, another move on a different chessboard. And it's the same, you know, 20 chess boards, but it's going around in a circle playing those chess boards and including, you know, I'm probably lead salesperson. So it's everything from internal kind of team management to going and getting people excited about this. So we could do what we do in more places.

Podcast Host (4:18)

So how about we, we dive right into a story where, you know, one of those times when, you know, you're juggling all these things and something just didn't go, you know, building games or using games as a strategy for learning as you were describing and you know, you went, you're going north, things just went south. We want to be there with you and take away some of those lessons. You know, perhaps what would you do differently?

Matt Dalio (4:37)

If anything, it's funny, I am thinking of 15 examples across the 15 year journey that in the various things we've done, we've been on. Maybe I'll describe a big one, which is we started maybe just to talk a little bit about why we're doing what we do, which then makes it a little bit easier to understand kind of that this inflection point. A world in which every kid is a creator, in other words, which every human grows up able to make and contribute to the software. In our world, whether they're a coder or a project manager or product manager, people in Silicon Valley are driving so much of the world's value. And then it's like everyone else just kind of receives what they have. And a world in which everyone else is capable of creating in the same way as them, again, not just in code, but in all the many disciplines of entrepreneurship. In an AI world, it's become even more important. A world in which everyone has those is a better world because it's a world in which people become power users, can have jobs, and then can also solve bigger problems and make the world better across all the other problems. And so what we realized was that almost all of today's tech entrepreneurs, so many of them at least, especially on the coding front, learn to code by hacking their games as kids. So like Elon Musk learned this way, Mark Zuckerberg learned this way. Both of them say that most of their best engineers learn this way. We have an operating system team focused on device access in emerging markets, which is a whole other story. And most of those engineers learned that way. And so we had an idea which is, let's go build a game that you could play and you could hack. And in the process of hacking it, you would learn how to code. And we'll build thousands of hours of questline in order to make, you know, this experience that takes you from novice to NSA level hacker. I still want to build that game, by the way, which I've given kind of the little clue that it died. And we spent a lot of money and a lot of time trying to crack this insight of like, how you would build the systems that make it easy to hack and how you make something that's easy on ramp and how you build a compelling narrative that brings people in on this hero's journey adventure story. And AI was part of it. Funny enough, we started, we were building this 2018 and AI was at the epicenter of it. So it's only become more relevant today. And we just thought we had to just keep Building more content. And we, we. Content is one of those things that you need breadth of content, and you also need quality of content. And with a limited budget, it's like, you know, the taffy can only stretch so much in so many directions. And, you know, at some point, we realized we needed a thousand times more than we were able to inadequately do on the budget that we had. In other words, you know, we realized it was just impossible to build the thing we were trying to build. And at that point, we had this awesome team working on it, and we were, you know, working our butts off and years into it and billions of dollars into it, and we just had to face the reality that there was no way to build the thing we were trying to build. But we realized this huge kind of like, whoa, insight that the people we were trying to teach these skills would learn more if they were able to build a game than by any game that they could ever play. And we also realized that if we taught them how to build a game, we. We could have them come and help us build the game we were trying to build. Like, they could become the creators of the game that we wanted to build. And then from there, we realized that they could build any game they want and learn. We don't need to be building a game. They can be building whatever game they want. Let's throw them in the professional tools and get them off and running and teach them how to do that. And then what we realized was that the professional tools were impossible for any of them to use. Like, you take your average human and you throw them in Unity and they just can't use it. And yet every kid in the world can use Minecraft. And so we realized there was this giant gap between Minecraft and Unity. And in the same way as a game tutorializes people, in other words, it brings you through this kind of long and exciting engagement journey of teaching you how to use, in some cases, really, really complex tools. Some games are really complex, and yet they never feel complex because you systematically learn how to use them over a long period of time. That we could build a tool that did the same thing for Unity, in other words, a tool that sat on top of Unity. It was a game. It is a game experience that lets you build games in a really simple way. As simple as Minecraft placing blocks, but with much more complicated mechanics. I could pull the lever and then press the pressure plate, and then those open the door. And then now, all of a sudden, I have a multiplayer puzzle. And by the way, all of it had to happen multiplayer, because we live in a multiplayer world. The original game we were trying to build was single player. So we realized out of this that with that tool we could then scaffold people into being creators. And so out of the kind of, you know, the ashes of this thing that, you know, imploded and burned down, what we realized was the right way to do it, and the right way to do it is teach people to build. I don't care what tool they build in, I care that they're building. And then that's frankly the most important thing about it. Like often I describe about the tool that we are building, our job is when we're effective, we are getting people off of the tool we're building because our job is to get them into professional tools. Unity, Unreal, Godot, I don't care what it is a Roblox studio. But in order to do that, we also realized that we had to build a tool to do it. And we were able to take all of the learnings from that original game we built called the Endless Mission, which is still there in steam. Early access as a kind of submerged ship, you know, sunken treasure at the bottom of the ocean. But it's full of all of the mistakes we made, which became all of the insights that we had for how you would build a tool correctly. So, for example, we would see students use this, and it was 3D object placement, and they'd line up all the platforms to jump, and then they'd rotate in 3D space, which, by the way, most people struggle with. And then they'd realize it was, you know, lined up from, you know, one axis, but it was all wonky on the other axis. Like, you know, literally just 3D placements hard. So many examples like that. And we had the chance to redo it and think about like, okay, well, let's make it block based, just like Minecraft. So it's a grid and you place it and, you know, the character will be able to jump. There's no question whether the character could jump because they could jump two blocks. And I put it two blocks. So that is, you know, we've had again, 15 years worth of examples like that. But probably the best example of really what got us to where we are today. If we hadn't done that, we wouldn't have the insights that we have today.

Podcast Host (11:32)

So, you know, I think this is both the story of favorite fail or first attempt at learning. Right. And also a story of big success. I just wanted to dig a little bit deeper on because it ended up in a success. Right? I don't know. Like, oh, I wouldn't do that anymore. Right. But maybe there is something you would do differently.

Matt Dalio (11:50)

Great question.

Podcast Host (11:50)

Or learn faster or, I don't know, like, looking back is always 2020, right? With that 2020 view that you have nowadays, is there something, if something, you know, relatable could come up, would you approach things differently? Would you not do some things, do some things that you didn't do? I don't know what would change?

Matt Dalio (12:10)

It's a great question. Again, there, There are so many. You asked about kind of my. The array of things that I'm working on, what my life looks like each day. And it's like, each one I could, I could point to examples. I'm also, you know, for better and worse, you know, kind of my wife credits and discredits me on, on this one, but I literally believe this is like a religious mission. And it's like, if there's a mistake, it was for a reason. And so it's like I had to go through that to get to where to, to where we are. And so I'm happy with where we are. But I think the biggest thing is just test your assumptions cheaply. I wish we had not spent so much darn money on something that, you know, didn't work. And I, you know, I spent a lot of money in prior lives on stuff that doesn't work. And, you know, our philosophy today is it's like, if you could be profitable, even if it's just barely profitable, then it allows you to live forever and then it allows you to grow and crescendo upon something very real. One of the best podcasts I've listened to recently was about the founder of Ikea. And it's fascinating story in the acquired podcast, highly, highly recommend it. But he talks about how the only financing the founder of IKEA ever got was when he was, I believe, like 16 years old. He was selling ballpoint pens and he got a $250 loan, the equivalent of a $250 loan to buy ballpoint pens. And from that he was able to generate enough profit to then start selling other things and then more other things through his catalog. And then one day he started selling furniture and that was profitable. And then one day he started a store and that was profitable. And they have not taken an ounce of financing since that $250 loan. And I like that. I like that a lot. And it requires a more patient attitude for some markets and industries. It doesn't work like if you're chasing to be the next social network or the next, you know, it's Uber versus Lyft. There's no question of which one you need to do. But in our world, that's just not the case. And so the notion of building a real business and then building upon a real business is probably the single biggest lesson that I've had from kind of the prior endeavors that I've done, you know, and you said it's a success. You know, to be really blunt with where we are, we are very much on the journey. We are a success and that we are profitable at the moment and we are, you know, success and that we have, you know, learned a lot and we have a lot of really cool things under our, our belts, but we have a long way to go before the dream is fulfilled. And so who knows, maybe even that core lesson changes in five months. But right now I am really, really liking the results of living that life.

Podcast Host (15:00)

Sounds amazing. Love it. So, Matt, we've been talking about these things and you clearly have just barely those 15 years of experience and all those things that have happened, good and bad. So I'm guessing that when you approach a problem nowadays, especially in this game world where you're, you're pretty immersed, you have some approach, framework, steps, process, I don't know how to call it depends on the person and what they're actually doing. Can you share some of that?

Matt Dalio (15:28)

Of course.

Podcast Host (15:29)

You know, the five minute version of the sitting on a, on a workshop for a few, a couple of days to be able to do it like you.

Matt Dalio (15:34)

Right.

Podcast Host (15:35)

But I don't know, like we would. We. I'm, I'm very curious to know how that looks like. And the audience usually also wants to see what they can incorporate in their own, their own professional life.

Matt Dalio (15:43)

So I never lose sight of the reason and the North Star and then never lose sight of the fact that if you don't have a stable step towards it, then you die and you never get to it. And I think too often people either focus on the short term and what they need to do now and then forget why they're doing it in the first place, where they're trying to go. Or the inverse. I was guilty of the inverse, which is chase the vision and kind of, you know, run off a cliff in the meantime, you know, and so a lot of that, I wrote a blog post called Shape the Mountain. It was talking about how you get to the top of the mountain. And there were a couple of them, but, you know, one of Them was called Shape the Mountain. And the beauty of entrepreneurship is that you can shape the contours of the thing that you're trying to build. And so, for example, we do contracts in different parts of the world. And those contracts can be structured in ways where they are divergent from getting us to the goal or where they are aligned with getting us to the goal. And the irony of the aligned with getting us to the goal is obviously it gets us to the goal, but also when everything we do is aligned to that, then it actually becomes better for everything else that we're doing. In other words, all the other contracts benefit from that core value proposition because we get better and better at the thing that we ultimately want to be doing. And so I think it's, you know, it's the idealism. And pragmatism is another way of putting it. You know, what, what is the ideal? What's the whole point? And then never lose sight of the fact that if you're not pragmatic about it and from it back to the point before, from a cash perspective, you know, you will not get to the ideals.

Podcast Host (17:20)

Cool, cool. It's principle based, so to speak. That's lovely too. I've recently been talking about, you know, you know, the product sort of product vision, Marty Kagan Silicon Valley Product Group and that kind of stuff. It's more than steps. It usually is more about principles. It's like, oh, you do things in a certain way and thinking it through certain lenses more than do 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. That's interesting too. That's very, very useful oftentimes to think through, through the lenses of, oh, when I do this, does this fit, you know, this principle? Am I sort of violating any of the, of the overarching principles and that, that, you know, gives you a good, a good strategy to move on if, of course, if the principles are sound, which after some experience I'm sure you have built up that, that capacity. And Matt, when.

Matt Dalio (18:12)

Yeah, go ahead. Just a kind of quick comment on it. What I've also found is that when you have a North Star, it makes it so much easier to align everything that you do towards it. Everything becomes a lot clearer when you don't forget what you're actually trying to do. And you know, so, yeah, I found that to be so central. I, you know, I would not be here if I had forgotten why I was doing what I'm doing and therefore what we had to do.

Podcast Host (18:39)

Amazing, amazing. So, Matt, in this world of building games and, or helping kids build games for learning Sort of generally games learning, building games and learning. Are there any best practices, any, any good stuff that you say, oh, you know, do this and whatever you're doing, it's probably going to be at least better, not perfect, any silver bullets, but you know, any, any again, principles, best practices, whatever you want to go for.

Matt Dalio (19:04)

Yeah. So what we do is almost what I should say, what I do is almost a meta layer around it, which is to create a vehicle that allows our mentors and game makers to be able to do that teaching. The core kind of premise of what we do is the best way to learn to do a job is to do the job. And so if our job is to prepare literally entire country's worth of kids, like we're working in a handful of countries on pilots which are intended to scale to potentially reach every kid, you're trying to teach an entire country worth of kids the skills that will get them a job, then the best thing we can do is to bring them into an environment that operates exactly like the real world. And the, the version one of that. In other words, step one is bring them into the mimicked version, not yet the real version. In other words, we're going to put you on teams and we're going to have you build together. But the real best thing is to get them onto professional games and give them the opportunity to participate in the real development process where professionals are trying to deliver a real product. And we learned this insight again because we are building a Linux operating system that's very much our roots, which is an open source operating system. So I've spent a lot of time in the open source community where I realized what an incredible learning environment the open source world is, what an incredible learning environment GitHub is. In many ways, I consider GitHub to be the best school in the world. In other words, it teaches you the skills, it does it at massive scale, and it gives you an incredible portfolio on the other end to get hired. And so what we are in the process, ultimately kind of the epicenter of what we are trying to build at Endless, which is what all of this is building towards, is a place where professional studios are building games and students are inside of those games, contributing, contributing art assets, contributing levels, contributing game mechanics, giving playtest feedback. And so that creates the opportunity for them to literally be in the real development process for a real game. So my encouragement, that's a long way of saying that my encouragement is first of all, go build, get together with the team, and it doesn't matter what the tool Is we have a tool on endless studios.com, it's called nStar. It's made for beginners to be able to basically scaffold into Unity. So it's worth checking out if that would be of help. But I don't really care what the tool is. If you could go to Unity or Unreal or Godot, even better, and make with your friends and then to the degree possible, go join a community of other makers. Maybe it's a modding community where you go and join others who are trying to mod a game and be with people who are more advanced and more sophisticated than you are, because you will learn by being side by side with people who really know what they're doing, even or in reality, if they're one step above you, they have something to teach you. And so go find others like that and do that would be my suggestion.

Podcast Host (22:06)

Sounds like an amazing suggestion. Looking for others who are doing what you are looking to do. And I've found, at least at this point, that the community of people, you know, creating educational games, doing gamification, tends to be very open, very collaborative. Like, people are very open and willing to, you know, look at your work and see, like, I can help you with this or you should look into that. In general, I think it's a very open and collaborative community. So definitely, definitely a good one.

Matt Dalio (22:32)

Matt, there are also just a quick one on that. There are a lot of game studios that are like, there's small studios that are scrappy and hungry. It could be five people who are saying you want to contribute and the opportunity to, I'll call it volunteer. But to offer help means that all of a sudden it's free capacity at the studio. So the studio's thrilled. On your side, you learn. You learn how to really actually build from professionals. So again, you know, that's kind of the epicenter of what we focus on. So that would be my feedback for the thing that, you know, I know a little bit about.

Podcast Host (23:06)

Amazing. Amazing. And after hearing these questions, seeing sort of what the vibe of the podcast is about, you know, all that stuff. I know you've saw a few episodes as well. Is there anybody that comes to your mind that you would like to listen.

Matt Dalio (23:18)

To on an episode like this one.

Podcast Host (23:19)

Like being interviewed on the podcast.

Matt Dalio (23:22)

Great question. Yeah. There was a great video from an interview with one of the lead maintainers of the Linux kernel who works directly with Linus. I wish I remember his name. I wish I could remember it. I would love to understand, like, from a perspective like that the perspective that understands open source and how open source has made its way into every. It's basically in every tech stack in the world. Right. Even LLMs. Open source LLMs are, you know, chasing these, you know, OpenAI with its tens of billions of dollars and yet games have not been open sourced. Why? And there are good reasons, a lot of them just pure financial. People want to build the thing and monetize them. And that's what, you know, how studios make money. But I think that someone who understood open source and also understood games and could speak to the overlap between the two and why there's such a gap, why it really is the tech stack that hasn't been touched by open source for me would be fascinating.

Podcast Host (24:26)

Interesting, Interesting.

Matt Dalio (24:28)

I like that.

Podcast Host (24:29)

So, Matt, talking about recommendations, how about a book? Anything the engagers should be reading at this point.

Matt Dalio (24:37)

So how much of engagement is creativity? So much of creativity is passion and there's a great. I'm just going to make sure I quote the name correctly. Yeah. The two books I'd recommend, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Eat Pray Love, is basically about this. It's this ode to creativity. It is this beautiful, inspiring, soul moving piece for anyone who has had their creativity stifled or needs a little bit of kind of a blowing on the flames or on the embers. It's just a wonderful piece. The other one is kind of the corollary to it. It's called the Artist's Way. And I heard about it because I was watching a podcast on listening to a podcast on a showrunner for a bunch of big shows and they were asked, have you ever had a writer's block? And he said, never, because I have read and acted on the exercises in the Artist's Way. And at the end of the day, it's really just about the power of journaling. But I have just had such a creative release and quite frankly productive like productivity release through the journaling that I have started doing that was inspired by that book.

Podcast Host (25:59)

Sounds amazing. Thank you very much for that. In this world of game creating and educational games, what would you say is your superpower? Sort of that thing that you do probably better than most other people. It doesn't have to be absolutely 100% unique, but you know, you're well above average in that specific aspect.

Matt Dalio (26:18)

It's a great question. I would say two things and it's really the two each alone wouldn't do it. I have big crazy visions, crazy dreams that matter for how you make people's lives better. I started a Foundation working with orphanages in China when I was 16. Like, lived in China for a year when I was 11. So for me, this is, like, you know, deep. You know, this is me authentically. You know, I want, you know, very much embedded into the deep recesses of my brain is this desire to make people's lives better and then. And then being pragmatic about how you get there. So that kind of vision setting is the first for something that matters, and the second is finding really, really good people and getting them excited. So, like, in that array of things, of activities I was just describing, like, we have such incredible people. We're in the process of interviewing a very senior person to come and lead one of those teams. And he was like, literally right before this was just doing a debrief with him. And he's like, I'm just shocked at how aligned everyone is. And what we're doing is big and bold and messy, and there's a lot of pieces to it. And so for him to be like. And it's. Everyone is saying the same thing, and he wants to be part of it, you know, is a statement of just, you know, both how compelling it is and then both, you know, how aligned these incredible people are. But, yeah, I. I often get to, you know, meet these really interesting people who. Who are, you know, kind of anyway, you know, highly successful in life. And I always ask the same question because I'm, you know, stunned by it. It's like, how the heck do you do everything you do? How do you do it? And the answer is the same almost every single time. Just, I have good people. I have good people. So a good vision with good people will get you a long way.

Podcast Host (28:07)

That makes sense. And I think they're. They're sort of. They go together very well. If you don't have a vision, people can sort of adhere to. You won't get. Get access to those people anyways. So I do think it's sort of, in a way, sort of a one thing, right?

Matt Dalio (28:23)

Yeah, exactly. The Bible says, where there is no vision, the people shall perish. You know, it's. You need a vision, and then you need the people who will go and actually make it. So.

Podcast Host (28:35)

So talking about favorite and interesting stuff that you have quoted, what would you say, Matt, is your favorite game?

Matt Dalio (28:42)

My favorite game? So here's the irony, the secret confession that I don't like to make. I don't get time to play games. I am so swamped with everything I just described, you know, plus three kids and young kids that Need a lot of time that I don't get to play as many games as I want. The games, though, that set me on my way. Civilization and SimCity, for me, were just such, like, foundational. I mean, I've just played so much of those games as a kid, and they set the course of how I today even think about how games can teach. Right. Civilization teaches a lot about history and dynamics and diplomacy and politics. SimCity about, you know, I literally went into real estate and urban planning because I like, for me, there wasn't A, then B, but like, I'm sure it was A, B, C, D. In other words, there was, you know, dominoes and, you know, from one passion to literally many years of my career in real estate. But also it teaches complex systems and kind of multivariate equations effectively where, you know, you have multiple factors that shape systems. Incredible, incredible learning experiences. There are other games that I've really, you know, enjoyed. Like, I remember playing Plague before. Plague is a game where, like, you were, you play a virus and you have to kill the world. That's real. And I played it before COVID And I remember when Covid came along being like, oh, my gosh, like, this was like when there were like 10,000 cases. And I was like, I've, I've played this game before. Like, literally the maps, I've seen the same maps, I've read the same news headlines. And people don't understand the power of exponentiality because, like, the beginning of that game is really boring because it goes like, one infected, two infected, four infected, eight infected, and you're like, there's nowhere you're going with this, right? And then 10,000 infected, and then a hundred thousand affected and a million. And I just saw that same curve happening with the same maps happening. And so it was just yet another example of, like, how good games are at teaching if you, it's the right game and it's teaching the thing you want to teach. Like, if you want to understand exponentiality in, you know, on a global scale. For example, specifically with, you know, epidemiology and, or, you know, with, with, with, with viruses. Look. Wow. It's. I, I, I felt like I was one of the few people who could see what was coming because I played a video game.

Podcast Host (31:06)

Can you, can you say the name of that video game again?

Matt Dalio (31:08)

It's called Plague. Plague. Gotcha.

Podcast Host (31:12)

Gotcha. So, Matt, thank you very much for all the insights, all the cool stuff you've been discussing here on the podcast. Thank you for your time. Is there any, is there Anything else you'd like to say, like any final words? Of course. Let us know where we can find out more about you. Endless and whatever you want to point us and then we will take off.

Matt Dalio (31:30)

Yeah, we are looking for game studios that want to build games in this kind of open source type way. So it doesn't literally mean the code has to be an open source license, but the notion of inviting your community into the creation process, whether it's, you know, importing their art assets or having them build levels with your level building tools, you know, or literally opening the code base to them, at least to be able to contribute kind of like an intern or an apprentice, but doing it at a larger scale for especially the small studios that are hungry and looking for kind of capacity and resource. You know, it's the inverse advice of what I was saying before. If you're a student, go and do that. Go find a studio who's willing to do that. If you're a studio who's willing to do that, you know, please reach out to me. Mattmlisstudios.com Send me an email and I would, you know, I'd love to see if we could work together, potentially invest and see if we could send students your way because that's, you know, I believe so central to, from my perspective, the future of gaming. I think if you, if we crack that it is, it unlocks entire categories of games that could, could not have been built before because there are some games that literally just will never raise the budget to build the game, but that can all of a sudden be unlocked with a swarm of talent and really creative and passionate talent. So, you know, if you're a studio that has an old IP and you want to revitalize it and it's hard to get money these days and you know, and you have big visions for it, the ability to build games this way, that's a great example of the type of game that's really good for this. So I would make that call to the universe, so to speak, to come and find us.

Podcast Host (33:16)

That sounds amazing. So, Matt, thank you very much again for sharing with us today your story, your struggles, your successes, your key spots and directions for people entering the space or in the middle of their journey. However, Matt and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it's game over.

Rob Alvarez (33:36)

Hey Engagers and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you're interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement, loyalty using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community community at Professor Game on School. You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to click there.

Podcast Host (34:00)

Join us.

Rob Alvarez (34:00)

It's a platform called School. It's for free and you'll find plenty of resources there. We'll be up to date with everything that we're doing, any opportunity that we might have for you. And of course, before you go on to your next mission, before you click Continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game.

Podcast Host (34:20)

See you there.

Ryan Reynolds (34:21)

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T-Mobile Representative (34:45)

$45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow 135 GB of network busy taxes and fees Extra CM marketing is.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (34:52)

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Matt Dalio (35:08)

And.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (35:08)

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