Professor Game Podcast

Episode 418: Design With Audiences: Mister and Mischief’s Playful Guide to Engagement

Host: Rob Alvarez
Guests: Andy Crocker & Jeff Crocker (Mister and Mischief)
Date: November 10, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the power of designing with audiences—rather than just for them—through the playful, analog philosophy at the heart of Andy and Jeff Crocker’s zine, Infinite Right Answers. Rob chats with the duo (collectively known as Mister and Mischief) about their transition from large-scale immersive productions to the tactile simplicity of self-publishing a zine. Listeners get actionable insights into audience collaboration, permission for imperfection, and a design philosophy centered on confidence and generosity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is a Zine? (03:18)

• Definition & Ethos:
  • A zine is typically self-published, handmade, and distributed with a DIY ethos.

    “Sometimes a zine is as simple as a piece of paper that’s folded and stapled and hand photocopied... There’s infinite ways you can make a zine. This one is somewhere between a zine and a book.”
    — Andy Crocker (03:43)

• The Infinite Right Answers zine is fully analog—not distributed digitally—and intentionally tangible and textural.

Why Make a Zine Now? (04:58)

• Andy and Jeff chose making over theorizing:

  “…either you become a thought leader and tour around... or... you make the thing. And we keep choosing to make the thing versus talk about making the thing.”
  — Andy Crocker (05:00)

• The analog format keeps the experience physical—mirroring the hands-on, experiential nature of their work.

Moving from Large-Scale to Lo-fi (06:55)

• Transitioning from immersive, in-person productions to printed form wasn’t about unlearning but rethinking how to present ideas:

  “This was everything right in front of you on a page that has to be printed out. I think required... changing how we approached presenting our thoughts.”
  — Jeff Crocker (07:57)

• Unlike interactive experiences, a printed zine offers just “one baton pass”—inviting but not controlling the reader’s interaction.

The Philosophy of Infinite Right Answers (09:29)

• Originates from dissatisfaction with binary interactions (e.g., traditional scavenger hunts) and platitudes like “no wrong answers.”

  “There are so many wrong answers in... improvisational setting... being racist, hurting somebody, breaking a thing... those are wrong. Don’t do it.”
  — Andy Crocker (10:45)

• The key realization: you can design for “infinite right answers” while still protecting boundaries and vision.

Designing With Audiences (12:56)

• Shift from “creating for” to “creating with” by initiating co-creation as early as possible:

  “If you can find it in yourself, how early can I pass this baton and how much can I trust them to pass it back to me?”
  — Andy Crocker (12:58)

• Tabletop roleplaying examples highlight how inviting player ownership leads to richer, more resonant experiences.

Navigating Collaboration and Boundaries (15:21)

• Not all aspects are open for co-creation; determining what to protect upfront is essential:

  “You have to decide: What are the things that you want to protect? …I’m not going to pass the baton for you to paint over a painting I’ve already made.”
  — Andy Crocker (15:21)

Learning from Failure: The Library Art Installation (17:11)

• Playtesting can still surface unexpected challenges—like people being too gentle with an interactive exhibit:

  “People were astonishingly overly gentle with it. They were so respectful of the library environment that they were not moving at a pace we expected them to.”
  — Jeff Crocker (19:22)

• Solution: Adjust the mechanism and expectations, recognizing that environment profoundly shapes user behavior.

The Importance of Imperfection (21:41)

• Imperfection signals approachability; it invites audiences to join in, not just spectate.

  “If you come off polished and controlled and perfect, then it’s a lot less easy to engage with the piece.”
  — Andy Crocker (21:41)

• The zine is intentionally filled with scribbles, unpolished diagrams, and prompts that say, "now you try."

Honoring Weirdness & the “Cutting Room Floor” (24:34)

• Nothing is wasted; even content that doesn’t make the zine is kept for “compost.”

  “I think we very much subscribe to, like, nothing gets thrown away. Everything is part of compost or ready for the next.”
  — Andy Crocker (24:34)

• Example: A difficult-to-explain core concept was eventually, with help, distilled into a simple metaphor: a bicycle.

The Essential Takeaway: Confidence & Generosity (27:42)

• If you remember one thing, let it be "the bicycle":

  “The bicycle represents... the two key elements... confidence and generosity... When people are not feeling confident, that is when they are the least generous.”
  — Andy Crocker (28:04)

• This principle applies everywhere: with collaborators, playtesters, and the audience. Cultivating both leads to healthier, more creative collaborations.

Universal Application (31:24)

• The philosophy of Infinite Right Answers extends beyond immersive theater—to blogs, recipes, dinner parties, and any creative endeavor.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Co-Creation:

  “How early can you engage with an audience and make sure that they have a little bit of that ownership?”
  — Jeff Crocker (13:27)

• On Audience Gentleness:

  “People want the library to love them as much as they love the library, and they just want to do right by the library…”
  — Andy Crocker (19:42)

• On Imperfection in Design:

  “We wanted it to feel like the way that we talk to each other… So pretty early on, we say in the piece, ‘now you try’ and there’s… a place for you to interact…”
  — Andy Crocker (23:31)

• On the Core Message:

  “If you practice generosity and you go like, okay, I’m going to play test this. It’s not ready yet… But I’m going to force myself to be generous in this moment. And then you get through that, you will be more confident, and then the next time you will be more generous…”
  — Andy Crocker (28:25)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:18 — Defining a Zine; Analog Format
• 04:58 — Why Self-Publish? Making vs. Talking
• 06:55 — Shifting from Live Experience to Print
• 09:29 — "Infinite Right Answers" Origin
• 12:56 — Audience Co-Creation & Passing the Baton
• 15:21 — Setting Boundaries for Collaboration
• 17:11 — Failure Stories: The “Too Gentle” Library Install
• 21:41 — Valuing Imperfection in Play
• 24:34 — Creative Editing and Metaphors ("The bicycle")
• 27:42 — The Lasting Takeaway: Confidence & Generosity
• 31:24 — Universal Application ("Not Just for Theater")

Resources & Further Exploration

• Mister and Mischief Website:
  www.misterandmischief.fun
• Instagram: @misterandmischief
• Newsletter: Occasional and informational; sign-up via their website.

Conclusion

This episode invites creators, teachers, and innovators to embrace imperfection, co-creation, and a design mindset that balances confidence and generosity. Through tactile analog creation, open-ended engagement, and stories of both success and failure, Mister and Mischief share a potent philosophy for meaningful audience engagement.

For more episodes, resources, and the Professor Game community, check the episode description. Listen. Learn. Apply play to your strategy!