← Professor Game Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
If you work with education institutions, they want to throw the whole textbook out and they want to say, I want to do a full year's worth of lessons into this one game and I don't care about plays.
- [00:16]
B
So. Hey engagers, welcome back to the Professor Game podcast. We are the number one gamification podcast and we explore how games gamification, game thinking and game based solutions boost engagement, maximize loyalty and build stronger products. I'm Rob, I'm the founder of Professor Game. I'm also the head of Engagement strategy of the Octalysis Group, which is the leading gamification consultancy and I'm also a professor of gamification game based solutions at top global institutions like IE Business School, EFMD and EBS University. And before we dive into today's conversation, if you're struggling with anything that has to do with retention, churn engagement or adoption in your product or service or business. We want to turn that around. So take a look at our free guide, Core Driver in the Wild and see how we have successfully been using motivation and non successfully as well with all our commentary in business situations. So all you have to do is click on the link in the description and Alan, welcome to the Professor Game podcast. We definitely need to know, are you prepared to engage?
- [01:18]
A
Yes, I'm prepared to engage. Thank you for having us on.
- [01:20]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. We have Alan Yeats. Yeats, is that right?
- [01:24]
A
Yes.
- [01:25]
B
It was the CEO of Pocket Sized Hands, a co development game studio based in Dundee, Scotland. And he Left school at 16 to work on games, dropped out of the university and founded the studio nine years ago. And since then Pocket Sized Hands has helped him ship titles including Pocket Mortys for Adult Swim, Oddworld, Soulstorm and the Brandy franchise, working with clients ranging from indie developers to major publishers. And the studio specializes in co development, in particular porting, networking and live ops. So Alan, is there anything that we're missing about you or Pocket Sized Hands that we should know before we get started?
- [02:04]
A
Yeah, we've also supported a lot of universities and local societies developing gamification games for them, bringing new ways of learning into their world.
- [02:16]
B
Sounds absolutely amazing. Thank you for bringing that up. And before, before we dive into this sort of difficult questions, let's start with an easy one like what does your day look like? What are you doing in these days? Maybe a typical day, if that makes sense in your case.
- [02:32]
A
Yeah, so I actually recently moved over to the CEO role, so I used to be the cto. So it's been a bit of a change recently. I'm less so in projects, developing the software and more, you're talking to perfected clients and talking to the wider ecosystem about how, how we can help and how we can, you know, similar to yourself, how we can bring new ways of learning to people and new ways and new solutions for their products. So very much, yeah. Going out there and talking about all things games.
- [03:01]
B
Wow, so you're basically a business developer now.
- [03:04]
A
Pretty much. It's fun though. I enjoy being able to spend my day talking about games. I don't think anyone could complain about that.
- [03:12]
B
Okay, so from game developer to business developer in games, for sure, that makes a lot of sense. You know, now you're also the CEO and I'm sure you also keep getting many of these stories. But we, we always kick things off in, in that sense with a story of what we call your favorite fail or first attempt at learning. Especially when it has to do with games, meaningful games, gamification, gamified strategies or whatever you want to go for. Because we want to be there with you, we want to feel a little bit of that pain and hopefully sting us enough not to do the same mistakes that, that took you there and take away some lessons.
- [03:45]
A
Yes, I said we've worked on a lot of, a lot with charities and developed products for them to bring out new engagements to school kids, young people. And we've developed a lot of jackbox style experiences. The kids can play in the classroom, facilitator can develop that experience and you live through that, that gameplay. Biggest one we've done is a knife crime charity here in Scotland. There is a large knife problem here in, in the UK where young people get into that sort of world and these charities are trying to tell youths about how to not engage that and some of the dangers around there. So we developed a really nice jackbox style experience where a facilitator can bring experience in the TV and then the kids can engage on their phones. And we play tested it and we really made a really good experience and really proud of it and then took it into schools. And the challenge with schools is they have a lot of firewalls. So when you're having a live experience where the young people are experiencing it on their phone, it's connecting to a network. The schools block all that. So trying to go through the process of working with local institutions and IT teams who don't know games, don't know games at all, don't want to know games, are trying to, okay, we need to take through the firewalls and this is not playing a game. This is a learning experience and you're taking through that experience was an up world challenge. This sort of thing you don't really think about when you're making the experience for the core experience for the end users, it's all the other users and all the other documentation you need to create alongside that.
- [05:23]
B
Yeah, big challenge. And it's something that I'm guessing that if you do a new project in that same area, you'll have, you have new things to do. And how would you go about it differently nowadays or how have you gone about it differently after that? Yeah.
- [05:37]
A
So I think when we realized that that was a large issue, we need to take a step back and think about who else needs to interface with the product we're working on. You normally you think about, okay, it's the end user, how's that core user experiencing the product? But you kind of also need to think about all those other people in the line who's hard for saying off project. But what is the IT team going to have to think about? If I'm developing this product, what's the. Yeah, the firewall policies, I need to make sure that they unblock or are okay with and the facilitator can have that conversation with the school or with the IT team. Say, I want to use this experience, this solution, and this is what I need you to do to allow me to do that. Thinking about the larger step through decision makers and participants in that project and how can we make sure it's as smooth for everyone as possible, not just the end user we're really trying to create the product for.
- [06:30]
B
So just to summarize, in a, in a, in a funny way, I guess it's just. Make it more complicated, right? Yeah. Making things more difficult in a way. No, you know, but it's important, you know, there's, there's always something else that could happen. There's always something, quote, unquote, worse. I remember I didn't get to live through this, but I was, I was just very recently getting into this role where, you know, we were developing stuff for business school and well, we're the internal department. And the situation was this professor who had been developing all these things. Usually she was not a techie, is not a techie at all, but she was very keen on new things and innovating and she had used all the products that we had developed with her. She was the co author, of course, she knew the content and so on. And there was a time when things really dropped through and the servers and had all These issues. But eventually that was solved and things were going smoothly until one day, literally, electricity went out. So it's like, you know, you can't really plan for that. Like, yeah, you need a screen because it's, it's happening on a screen and students need, you know, maybe they can stay. Their computers can stay on, but if electricity goes out, guess what? Internet goes out as well. So, you know, it was funny in a way, because it's like, well, there's nothing we can really do and we cannot even plan for it. Like, oh, what do we do if the electricity goes out? It's like, well, you know, know, hope it comes back very soon. And nothing broke, basically. But it was, you know, it's one of those things that, where, yes, you have to plan ahead for many things, then you realize, but there's some others that is like, well, you know, if this happens, there's nothing we can do.
- [08:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, you got to think about where's your level of influence? Yeah. How can you influence the problem?
- [08:07]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And to flip it entirely around, what would you say is a time when things actually did go really well? It doesn't have to be in the first try. It's kind of a success story or a proud moment that you would like to share with the, with the engagers.
- [08:21]
A
Yeah. So we developed a game for Cambridge University. So they approached us to create something to better educate people about what the stem stem cell science actually is. So they were kind of. The new people had a lot of concerns and, you know, misinformation about what. What's involved with being a stem cell scientist? And they were like, well, how do we solve this problem? They didn't know if they wanted a game. They just, we want to solve this problem and we want to do it in an interactive way. What can we do? And so we went all the way back to basics, running through workshops with them, thinking about what do they actually want to get across? What's the real message they're trying to get across? How can we best take that experience through? And so we created a full game for them that wasn't throwing the whole textbook at the problem. And that's the problem we, anyone kind of working gamification has always seen is you. If you work with an institution, and especially education institutions, they want to throw the whole textbook out. And they want to say, I want to do a full year's worth of lessons into this one game, and I don't care about plays, but slow down. Let's. Let's make the Game fun first and make it a good game. You're really thinking about the play and then start to add the textbooks and learnings into it so people actually engage. And that's kind of what we did. We created this really beautiful game experience where they can take it out to schools or more in undergrads and they can get a better understanding of what's the, the real reality of working in that world and maybe just you know, discerning some of the difficulties that maybe come up, the ethical and physical dilemmas. And it's a beautiful game that I really proud of what we created in the end because yeah, it's a fun game and it has kind of learned they wanted to get across which is ideal for the type of things that I want to make and also that they wanted to create.
- [10:10]
B
Absolutely. It sounds fantastic. For sure. You know, this connects really well with the next question we'd like to talk about process. How do you approach these challenges? So you were saying that you want to start with building a game that's really fun and then sort of injecting the learning objectives or something along those lines. I'm not sure if I'm misquoting you, but precisely to make sure that we have an idea of what does it look like for you? What would you say is your process like again, somebody comes in like Cambridge University or school, whomever, we want to build this, how do you go about that?
- [10:41]
A
So big proponent of co design. I think you can't build something like this independently in your own kind of funnel. We don't like getting a project that is, here's the spec. Come back to us in three months when you found the solution because you never. You're always going to have a misalignment. And I think when you create a product this, you want to have everyone point in the same direction so they can get the best use of it. So we at the very beginning of the project have a workshop with the facilitators and hopefully some of the target audience. They want to push this product to and work out what's the core problem they're trying to actually solve, not what they're asking the solution to be. What's the problem? Taking a step back and asking, okay, why? Why are we doing it this way? Why are we doing it this way? Why would we do it that way? And really trying to get to that core. What are they trying to solve with that problem? And then let's go backwards. That's this problem to try and solve. How do we create experience to Match that problem, finding the fun and the play within that, because it's all about play. And I think that's kind of how you really get a really nice experiences. How are the players engaging? How are they playing with it? So we run that workshop, create the why we're doing it and then we kind of drill an mvp. Sometimes that's paper. If it's a core experience, we can really get on out of it in the paper. Sometimes it's in a very MVP gray box software type. We found the fun. We can go back to the facilitator and say, was this what you can invent? Are we, are we in the right direction? And then it's kind of iterating. It's you keeping the people who are facilitating the evangelists of the product there. And so it's their product, not a product they've commissioned. We want it to be their product. They're really evangelizing it and helping you push it to the maximum level, develop solution. And then finally we can go back and test it, make sure we're hitting those key points that we said at the beginning when we went through that workshop, did we hit what we wanted to hit? And then bringing out to the end users.
- [12:33]
B
Amazing, Amazing. The whole co creation, co development process as you mentioned, is something that I've seen as a trend in many ways. The way we tend, not tend, because it always depends on the involvement of clients at the actuality group is what we recommend that where we see the best results is exactly when people really get involved. Because like even the best briefing a business can give you or a school or a university, since they don't do this for a living, they're not living and breathing this. They don't really know what you need. And it's not something you just send, oh, like fill out this document and that's gonna be enough. Very, very, very rarely is that going to be sufficient. And also there is a creative component of, you know, is this the direction we're going? Are you, is this something you envision? One of the things that I like to discuss and that I think is very important is we have like a, a, you can almost spin it around like, oh, do you want it to be like very, very clean and corporate? Like this is just a progress bar like the one that they have on LinkedIn. Something like very, very corporate. It's not very gamey all the way to a very magical, fantastical experience. Where do you place yourself right? And even with that decision being set up front, then you're still testing like oh, do you, you say you want to go kind of magical. Like this is a magical world fantasy, you know, I don't know, Middle Ages kind of thing. Is this too far? Is, are you expecting more? So, so that kind of co creation, I completely agree that is is definitely required to, to see both what is on their mind but also how much can you push their limits because it's typically, it's, you know, if you're doing a good job, usually is they're pushing back, saying no, no, no, it's too much, it's too much, too much fun, you know, or too much, it's too magical and we have to cut it back and still achieve the same objectives and engagement, learning, whatnot. So I love that.
- [14:30]
A
It really depends on the end user as well. If your end user is, you know, young people, you're going to have a different type of aspect compared to people who are not up to speed with technology. And you can only do, you know, most part impressed that's, that's the maximum input you can do because everything else is too complicated.
- [14:45]
B
Yep, definitely part of the strategy dashboard. We understand our players really, really well. We need to understand where they're at, what they're familiar with, what they're comfortable with, for sure. So Alan, in, you know, in your world of game development and making these meaningful games and so on, is there any kind of best practice or something you say, well, you know, this is not going to be a silver bullet, but it's going to make your project better, going to help you achieve some things that otherwise you wouldn't.
- [15:12]
A
Yeah, I think it's focusing on the play, not necessarily the game, but the core underlying play. Because sometimes it doesn't have to be a game. It can be something physical in, in person. What's the, what is the play we're trying to get out of it. So you're taking everything step backwards, drawing everything backwards of what the solution we're trying to create, what's the play that that solution can be the experience. So you know, how is the player going to engage with it? And that's not going to be reading a book because that's not the best way that most people, a lot of people learn. So what's the, the play to kind of ask ascertain that.
- [15:44]
B
Absolutely. It makes a lot of sense. I, I'm not sure if we're referring to exactly the same thing, but I, and I've been trying to look up some more, some more stuff for, for my students that is not just sort of proprietary internal material from the consulting in terms of game loops.
- [15:58]
A
Right.
- [15:59]
B
If once you find the right game loop so people keep coming back, everything else becomes at least easier or clearer because, you know, this is the direction that you're taking. So, so I, I definitely agree with that. And game loops can be digital, they can be physical, they can be just pretty much anything. But it's. So it's, it's. What is it? That thing where users, players keep coming back to because they want to, amongst other things. That, that's a key, that's a key part of that. You know, games being voluntary and all, all this. Alan, after hearing these questions, and I know you've also seen a, a few episodes of the podcast, is there somebody that you would be curious to hear on the podcast in the future? A future guest, Somebody you know, at this point with AI, you know, it could even be somebody who's not alive anymore. I've been considering this for a while. I'm not sure if the technology is still in place, but it could be an interesting thing to bring. You know, just an easy, easy quote, unquote. One Steve Jobs, right. He's modern, he has a lot of videos and all that. So you can make a debate between him and Napoleon Bonaparte. Why not with. With us, right? And see what they think of, of our strategies. But any, Anybody comes to mind?
- [17:07]
A
I'm not sure it's a really good question because I think thinking someone who's not necessarily in games and working in games, it's thinking about the end users of who's engaging with it. So I think it'd be really interesting to hear someone from, you know, a charity or a kind of a educational institute of who wants to bring gamification in and they haven't engaged it yet. What's their thought process? What's their kind of thinking around it rather than the other side of people who are actually creating it? What's their thoughts on it? Something with a very outsider's view who wants to get more in.
- [17:38]
B
You want to do some customer research now that you're a CEO, you're looking into business development. That makes sense. Smart move. I like it. Alan. Keeping up with the recommendations. Is there a book that you would say, look, maybe this doesn't have everything, but this is one of the best things I can put forward to help people enter this world or get better at this or wherever you want to go for.
- [18:00]
A
Yeah, I think maybe taking a step backwards. And what's the challenge? I find personally and I found throughout my career of when you're making these sort of products. And I always found a challenge of actually focusing on what I'm trying to do. And when working in games, if you work especially know, you know, more traditional games, it's very easy to tink around with lots of things. So I really recommend Deep Work by Cal Newport, which kind of goes into how. How you kind of separate your brain to really focus on one thing. Because really, yeah, in games it's so easy to just tinker around with lots of different things because lots of things are important in the game. What's the most important thing? What is the thing that solves everything? The next kind of priority thing. Because you can never have really one priority. You can't have lots of priorities. So really recommend kind of, yeah, Deep Work.
- [18:52]
B
That is an amazing book. You know, it's Amazon bestseller or bestseller in so many places, I'm sure. And Cal is a massive, massive author. So definitely a very good book to recommend indeed. And in this world of gamifying experiences, creating meaningful games, what would you say is your superpower, that thing that you do at least better than most other people or at least in your company, if that's what you want to go for?
- [19:19]
A
I think it's digging into the why. That's what we've always found that's the best solutions we've always found is because we can understand the actual underlying why, not just, I want to make this game, why do you want to make the game, why do you want to solve this problem? And that's a really. It's one of those skills that's really hard to quantify of how to get better at that finding the why. And it's also very hard to quantify being the best at it. But it's also such a really key skill to understanding when you want to deliver something for a client or for anyone for an end user, why do they want to engage with this thing ever? Or why do you want to do it in this solution that you're trying to create?
- [19:57]
B
Very, very important indeed. So now we get to the difficult question. And ideally this would not be part of your own personal professional catalog. What would you say is your favorite game?
- [20:09]
A
Ratchet and Clank Tree. It's. I've played so much as a, as a youth, and it's such a great game. It's one of those games that I can keep going back to even now and enjoy it.
- [20:19]
B
Ratchet Clank three. Got it. Got it. Ratchet Clank three. I haven't played it, so I can't have any opinion on it, at least not yet. But I've heard good things for sure. And before we, you know, we, we move on and go to, to our next appointment, I'm sure you have business development waiting for you. Is there, are there any final words, any piece of advice that you want to leave the engagers with? And of course, please let us know where we can find out more about you, about pocket sized hands and whatnot.
- [20:50]
A
Yeah, I think it's always trying to think about how you resonate with your audience. What is the audience trying to achieve when they create that solution? Always. That's why why again and why why why I try and really unduly under Ravel that Onion. You can find me on Alan Yates games on all platforms and poxishangs on poxishangs.com or PTT and all social medias.
- [21:14]
B
Amazing. Alan, thank you so much for your engagement, for everything you've brought in today to the podcast and engagers. Remember, if you're facing any kind of, you know, problems with retention, engagement, adoption, like what we've been discussing today with Alan in your service, your business, your school, there is something that can help you turn that around for absolutely free. Just go the link in the description, get our free guide Core Drives in the Wild and see how to successfully or also unsuccessfully use these strategies so you learn from that and are able to do it by yourself. Just go ahead and click click on the link in the description and at least for now and for today, Alan and engagers, as you know, it is time to say that it's game over.