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Professor Game Podcast
Tom Vorselen On Why Effort Isn't the Problem (Your Learning Systems Are) | Episode 429
00:37:19
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- [00:00]
Tom
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- [01:19]
Rob
Night before and hey engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Gaming Podcast. As you know, here we interview people who like to talk about the amazing world of gamification, game thinking and other related ideas so that we can add value to your day by their experiences. And as you know, I am Professor Game. I am Rob and I am a consultant. I'm a coach. I do many things nowadays. I'm also the head of Engagement Strategy at the oftalysis Group, a leading gamification consulting consultancy around the world. And today we have a very special guest, we have Tom with us and this connects very well to also a significant part of how I started in gamification. A lot of the experience I've had which has to do with education and learning. But Tom, first we need to know, are you prepared to engage?
- [02:16]
Tom
I am ready to engage for sure.
- [02:18]
Rob
Let's do this. Let's do this Tom. Let's go. Because we have Tom with us today who is the founder of of the Study Coach, a global coaching and brand helping students and working professionals overcome things like Procrastination, Master Time Management and Study Smarter with proven science based methods. And after struggling with poor grades and burnout during university transformed his own approach using evidence from cognitive psychology and neuroscience, eventually graduating with top marks and turning his system into a full time mission. And he as a study coach supports learners in over 40 countries through personalized coaches coaching online programs, workshops focused on efficiency, focus and mindset. His methods have helped thousands of students from medicine to business to engineering achieve higher results in less time and especially regain that confidence in their ability to learn, grow and perform at their best. I see many shared topics we could be diving into today, especially on the whole science backed neurocog, neurocognition, cognitive psychology and all of that. But Tom, is there anything we should be saying in that intro that we haven't mentioned yet?
- [03:24]
Tom
Oh yeah. Before we kick this off, Rob, I just want to say thank you for having me on. I've listened to a couple episodes and what you're building is super special and I just wanted to acknowledge that because I know what effort it takes to create so many episodes every single week. It's not easy, it requires a lot of hard work. So just you're creating real impact and I'm very happy that I can be part of that. And the last thing before we jump in, for everyone listening, do me and Rob a huge favor and go leave a five star review if you haven't done that yet for Rob on the platform that you're listening to, because it can impact even more people. I already did mine on Apple podcasts so you'll see that coming in soon. So yeah, join me and I'm ready to dive in.
- [04:11]
Rob
Let's do this. So Tom, when it comes to your day, right, we had a little bit of a chat in the pre interview about your team and stuff you're doing. But when it comes to your day or maybe your weeks, I don't know, if we were to sort of follow you around, what would it look like? What would, you know, the engagers feel if they were, you know, in your sphere or following you as a shadow or something like that?
- [04:33]
Tom
First of all, I think they are, they would think that I'm crazy because when I look at, when you look at my time schedule, it looks like a huge Tetris playing board where there's a bunch of color coded time blocked events which almost looked like indeed the biggest Tetris game, but then in real life and yeah, next to that, I'm just obsessed with what I'm building at the moment, which means I'm putting in a ton of hours and taking only a couple of days off each each month because I love what I'm doing so much. Which yeah, sometimes people can't resonate with. Maybe the engagers are high achievers, like minded people, so they can, but the normal person would think like they see my calendar and think wow, what is this?
- [05:23]
Rob
Yeah, amazing. It reminds me of a past guest, Nir Eyal of Hooked and also indistractable. I don't know if you've read that book. And he talks a lot about time boxing. Like many techniques I've heard in other places, his whole sort of system and his mind goes around like time boxing is an essential component of his method. So it reminded me of, of our chat, I think it was episode like 100 or 101 or something like that a long while ago. Yeah. So Tom, let's, let's dive right in because we like to sort of hit our guests very quick with a fail moment or a first attempt at learning. And of course if it has to do with anything playful, gameful or using these, you know, cognitive patterns and psychology and all these things, neuroscience that you've been studying that would be especially interesting because it allows us to not only, you know, sort of, oh yeah, this is all the amazing things we've done, but it's also like what have we learned from what are the mistakes that we've also made? And it allows the people to say, well you know, maybe not the exact same mistake, but in that area we can take those lessons and probably apply it better to our, to our own spaces.
- [06:35]
Tom
Yeah, for sure. What the listeners should know is that becoming confident and effective in learning or in business because once you start business, it's like the biggest learning journey you will go on in life. It's tough. So many students, working professionals, entrepreneurs, they all struggle with procrastination, weak habits, whether that's learning or study habits, constant overwhelm of all of the things that they can do and they end up feeling stuck, stressed and disappointed with the results. Which I also had. Right. In my first year of my academics I failed 50% of my courses. And that was not due to me not putting in the effort, but it was basically because my methods compared to high school were trash. So what the goal is right now is that we help again students, working professionals and entrepreneurs master proven learning time management methods so they can perform better, feel more in control and reach their goals without like the burning out or wasting hours on tactics that don't work. And one of the failures that I experienced there was indeed the methods, the tactics that I used in my first year of Uni. They were bad. They were bad. Like they were just the average student rereading and highlighting approach and cramming one night before. But once you start doing courses like anatomy or physiology, Rob, I'm going to tell you, like you can't get away with one or two hours of studying before a big exam. So that was my biggest failures. And once I started figuring out that it was not my effort, it wasn't an effort problem. But my parents also saw that it was a method problem. They always got me tutors on everything. But these tutors didn't work or. Well, they worked for a specific course. However, once you start going into university or life and business, there's no one type of tutor that can solve that. So you need to change the fundamentals of your learning to ensure that you can get good results. So we then hired a learning professor learning coach and he was going to break us down. The science of learning. And then let's try to make a link to the gamification there. He taught me all kinds of tricks and methods that made learning A more easy and B more efficient and effective. And if you want, I can go into detail around all of them. But it included for example, a five minute rule or a Seinfeld strategy where you check boxes in a row and you create the crawls and you don't break the chain. Things like that. That ultimately helped me to make the daunting process of the learning anatomy and physiology way more fun and eventually also passing the courses for sure.
- [09:32]
Rob
That sounds amazing. Love it. Because that's one of the things sometimes I know Yukai Chow and the optalysis framework in general likes to talk a lot about function focused design versus human focused design. And you can be super efficient and focus on all the efficiency. Everything is super efficient. But if you don't account for your motivation, what actually drives you, what are the things that can keep you consistent, build up those habits. Then no matter how easy it is, how much you reduce friction, which is important, don't get me wrong, especially for studying, if you don't account for that, then eventually it just, you know, that motivation that, that drive, that push, that nudge, not going to be enough. You really have to deliver it in a systematic way, accounting for that in the right moment, etc. Etc. Etc. So I love that approach that that learning coach gave to you and, and you were saying that and I remember when I met Barbara, you know, Barbara Oakley, the I think it's learning how to learn. The MOOC course is one of the most popular courses in Coursera. We had the, the, the massive opportunity to meet her actually twice in my, my couple of roles ago.
- [10:38]
Tom
Yeah, I watched her course like four years ago or something.
- [10:42]
Rob
So, you know, it speaks kind of to, to, to the, it kind of speaks a little bit to the kind of things that you're, you're talking about, of course, with a, you know, MOOC sort of very, very zoomed out perspective with all, you know, a lot of science as well. And it's precisely that. It's, it's, you know, how variety and all kinds of things are allowing your brain to, to be able to better focus and learn. And another thing I love about what you're saying is he was not teaching you how to learn biology better or how to understand, you know, math in a better way or, you know, how to write better paragraphs. It's, you know, it's, it's a more essential skill, which you, I'm sure you will agree with me, is something that, that should start, start to be a part of school curriculum. Like everybody should be able to have these things on their minds and as early as possible because no matter where you go into, you will, you know, there. It's quote unquote mandatory to go to school, at least to a certain level. So the sooner you get at least the gist of this thing, the more everybody will benefit from that, including your teachers.
- [11:48]
Tom
Can I chime in on that for a bit? The most fascinating statistic that I've ever heard. It was from Gino, a Dutch educator in the Netherlands, and he shared that on average we spend around 13,000 hours at school between the age of 5 and 22. And when they did that research, and this was a couple of years ago, so maybe the numbers has changed a little bit, but on average, zero hours are dedicated towards learning how to learn. We only bombard our students and people with things that they have to learn, what they have to learn, but we rarely teach them how to learn, which then creates this big gap of everyone doing whatever they think is good, rereading and highlighting, even though that all of these methods have been debunked by science over and over and over. But still, 84% of people use these methods as their main learning methods. And that still applies to people then in later stages of life. So if someone is listening to this and they are, I don't know, in their 40s, in their 50s, and they think, hey, I'm picking up a course again. But I started to realize that I've never learned how to learn and you're going to reread your notes again and you're going to go to that exam, I'm going to tell you honestly right now, you're setting yourself up for failure. What you should be doing is a completely different approach for learning which engages active learning, spaced repetition, like principles from, from indeed a learning science that will yield them way better results. But if they've never learned that, you can't expect from them that they can apply it right away.
- [13:36]
Rob
I teach at the university, I can tell you my, you know, 19, 21, 22, 23 year olds have no idea what you're talking about mostly. So I couldn't agree more. So, Tom, speaking about all that success that it has brought and how you understand all the science better and I'm sure you know, as, as research progresses and as you gain even more experience with all that you've done, all your, the amazing students you've had, this is something that keeps on evolving. So I'd like to dive into one of those times when things did work that did go super well and it sort of showed as a shining example, you know, again, as much as you can share, you know, I don't know if you can share how much you can share about individual cases and whatnot, but we want to be there, you know, we want to sort of celebrate that success and as well perhaps take some of the, some of the key lessons, some of the things that, like, oh, I think this was very successful because we did all of these things, for example.
- [14:27]
Tom
Yeah, for sure. There's multiple, multiple situations of students that I worked with that were on the edge of academic probation and just by slightly changing their learning approaches from indeed passive learning to active learning. For the listeners, active learning means actively retrieving information from your memory, which forces your neural pathways to come up with the information. Even though that this is more difficult, it strengthens your neural pathways. But what we've seen is literally, indeed students who were on their last retake and if they were to fail that one retake, they will be kicked out of the program. And one of my students, I'm not going to share his name, but dental students from the US and he had two retakes, he had clinic rotations, he was a dental student and he had his most difficult course coming up. And in his university they had to pass everything with 90% and above as a passing rate, which is insanely high. So he had those two retakes, he had his rotations, and he had his current classes to take care of when he Called me. He was so stressed. He was on his holiday with his parents, but he couldn't relax. I could see in his face that he was about to break down and cry. That's how bad it was. And we started working together. And in the three months that we worked together, his grades were 94, 98, 95%. He passed the retakes, he passed the initial course, and he could finish the rotation. So that is just one of the many success stories. But where he went from so stressed, so overwhelmed, to feeling super confident and eventually texting me six months later, Tom, I graduated. I can now go into the next dental program, my master's, and pursue his dream of becoming a dentist and having his own practice. So that is one of the coolest stories. But, yeah, so many more like that.
- [16:33]
Rob
And what, of course, again, with the details that you can share, what are. What were some of the things that he might have been struggling with and how did that change? Like, what was that? What were those things? That's like, oh, change these things. And of course, you know, you spent three months with this student in 10 minutes in a podcast, we won't get even 10% of that. So what could be some of the ideas, some of the seeds that you started planting so that he changed his approach?
- [17:02]
Tom
Very good question. What I think people underestimate is their mindset regarding challenges and the future. So whenever we start with students, we always focus on their mindset first. Is it growth or is it fixed? And the majority of people have a fixed mindset because they've experienced failure in the past. So they're going to project that failure into the future, which is completely fine. However, we have to break that pattern because that negative thinking is preventing them from actually taking action and moving forward. Because negative thoughts create negative feelings. Stress, anxiety, overwhelm. And these feelings make people avoid or procrastinate because we want to feel good, we want to feel happy. And that was the first, most important step because he had those retakes and he failed. In the past, we first had to do some mindset work there where I said, hey, dude, you have to start trusting yourself and trusting this process that we are going to go through. And if you don't trust that and you don't believe in yourself, it's going to be a hard one. Once that was set that foundation, we started to look indeed, at first of all, it's time management. Because, Rob, you will be surprised if I ask people to share with me what their timetable looks like. Nine out of ten times, I just Get a completely empty calendar. But they do say, I'm so busy. I'm like, you're busy doing nothing because your calendar doesn't tell me any. Yeah, but I have this to do. I have that to do. All right, so let's block it out and see where all of your time goes. And then they figure out that they have a spare three to four hours each day that they're just wasting on their phone or any other unnecessary activities. And the last thing that we then focused on was his learning methods because he was one of these students that would only reread and, and highlight and go over his notes. And we changed that, especially for a dental student, into mind maps, which is basically. Well, probably everyone has heard about a mind map, a web of all of the concepts. And most important is that we try to create those from memory. So not just copy pasting when you're watching a video or a lecture, but trying to force yourself and create that web from memory. And next to that, it was a lot of terms, so flashcards that sound daunting but worked really well, and retrieval practice questions, which basically means creating practice questions, mock exam questions for ourselves and testing those and that yielded the results that he needed.
- [19:37]
Rob
Sounds amazing. I love that. I just had one thing because again, I mentioned near at the start with the whole time boxing and all of that. Yet I know there are people who say, and I can kind of vouch a little bit for that. So sort of two things, right? There's two sides of this. There's people who say, you know, the whole time boxing and that stuff, I'm super productive, you know, everything goes well. But for me it doesn't work. Having everything on the calendar, it just doesn't work for me. I'd like to have your perspective on that one. And then on people who say, well, maybe that could be better. Problem is I have a very unpredictable schedule. There are many things sort of shifting and moving at the same time. And let me give you a small example. At home you look at least very, very young. I'm 40 and we have a three year old daughter just having that element there of, oh, I planned for today, all these things I have to get done. But then, you know, the easy example is she gets sick, she can't go to school now, she has to be at home. So things have to change, right? Like for example, I try to avoid having interviews at certain times where she might be napping because she's, it's the room next door. And you know, things would not go go well, but beyond that. Yeah, like for example, her mom might need to stay at home for that. Like, things have to change. So two challenges, right? One, yeah, that kind of doesn't work for me. I'm still super productive. And two is like, well, you know, timeboxing sounds great, but how do I actually implement that?
- [21:02]
Tom
Yeah, for sure, very good question. I think the majority of people benefit from time blocking. The majority, because what science has also shown is that people who followed simple time blocked schedules saw an increase in productivity as well as the quality of their work improves because there's a reduction in multitasking, which is actually bad. So for the majority of people, it works. For some people, indeed it doesn't work because they start to feel like super overwhelmed. What we normally see with students where it doesn't work, there's some either a type of ADD or ADHD underlying that makes it harder for them to follow through and like have all of the distractions. However, this is an important note. For some of the students with ADD adhd, it works wonders because finally they have structure and overview in their head and in their calendar. So it is really a custom approach for each student that we work with. We do highly recommend that everyone starts to do it and try it such that they can analyze what works, what doesn't work. And same as with playing games. All right, so let's figure out, let's see if we can make the connection here to playing games and how we can relate that to real life. If you play a video game and you fail, you're going to ask yourself, okay, what should I stop doing, what should I start doing and what should I continue doing? And these are the three questions that we ask every week to our students based on their time management experiences. Because if you fail a level in a game, apparently either or you're not good enough or you have to change your tactic, which is the same with life and time blocking. So that is the first principle. And then of course you can change your time schedule. You can reflect each day and say, okay, what worked? What didn't work? So what am I going to do tomorrow? So that is my take on time blocking. Yes, for some people works. For some, there needs to be more custom tailored advice and revisions to say so. The second question that you have reminds me of one of my students, a 42 year old surgeon with a 2 year old toddler. We just finished working together with him and what worked really well for him was indeed not having everything written down and not everything locked in. But each morning we gave him the exercise to fill out an Eisenhower matrix, which is basically a matrix that has different components where you figure out what is urgent and not urgent and what is important and not important. Highly recommend everyone to check this out on the Internet or Google it. And he was going to block his tasks in this Eisenhower matrix each morning. And based on that, he was going to fill his day. So what is the most important and urgent? He would start doing those. And if something happens, for example, the child got sick, there's one box in this matrix that is called delegate. And there his partner came in like he could delegate the taking care of his toddler such that he could focus on his coursework and vice versa. Right. If his partner had something, then he would do it instead. So with him it was more of a daily reflection. Okay, so filling out this matrix every single morning, he sent that to one of his accountability coaches from team and then he would start working on it. And he accepted. Hey, if something doesn't go well or I don't finish it, I look at my priority list. Can I like fit it in tomorrow and knock it out? And that is also what I think life is about. Too many people expect themselves to finish everything that they have scheduled. But if you finish about 75% on a daily basis, you're doing an amazing job. Like an amazing job.
- [24:54]
Rob
Yeah, love that, love that. Thanks for that one. It kind of, kind of looks like what I tend to do nowadays. Things that need to get done and, you know, adapting and doing as much as possible. 75% is a good target. I haven't, I haven't achieved that too often lately, but it sounds like a very, very good one for sure. So, Tom, when somebody comes to you, I'm guessing that you have some sort of process, some sort of like, oh, I'm having these struggles for studying. In your case, how do you, how do you start? What, what are the thing, kinds of things that you look into? What, what, what does that process look like?
- [25:29]
Tom
Essentially, yeah. The process is fairly simple. We always first start with a deep dive, free consultation call where I'm going to figure out what their challenges are. And the three most common challenges in this specific order are procrastination, bad time management, feeling overwhelmed, and bad learning methods. 95% of the people that we work with experience these, whether it's students or working professionals. The working professionals, they're the adult learners. They also procrastinate. They don't know how to manage their time and their energy after work, and they apply bad learning methods. So they have to retake bar exams, law exams, CFA certificates, you name it. So basically we figured that out first, then we look at what their goals are. Because I think it's really important that we have something very clear that we're working towards. And then based on every conversation, we start with a personalized plan. We always apply and assign one on one coaches, whether that's me or someone from our team, such that we make sure that it's not a one size fits all. Because I don't believe in, in that. Especially when we work with the variety of people that we work with. We can have an 18 year old student or we can have a 50 year, 52 year old entrepreneur. Like the difference between their needs, their schedules and their challenges is insane. So we always have one on one coaching in line to make sure that it's personalized and custom. But we also do have general resources right in a video vault where people can grab their nuggets, get the content. Because the principles that we do teach can be applied to the majority. However, the implementation might vary from person to person.
- [27:16]
Rob
That makes absolute sense. Love that. And Tom, you mentioned that you've heard a couple of episodes as well. You know you've been enjoying the podcast and after hearing some of these questions, is there somebody that you would be curious to hear or to see on the Professor Game podcast in the future? A potential future guest?
- [27:34]
Tom
Oh, I would actually be one of my team members because his name is Dan. He's a, I think he's now 20 and he is very much into using AI for our students and gamifying stuff. So he's working on the development of our personalized AI tool that we use for our students and he's doing all of the research calls and he is trying and he's applying like way more gamification principles into the coaching than I do personally because I'm usually a very straightforward person and say like hey, just submit your stuff and make sure that you take the action. But he also tries to make it more, more fun. So he will be a very interesting guy I think for his age. And this is also what some of our students say about him. He's so, well, he's so knowledgeable for his age and he's been going through a bunch of things that got him to the place where he is right now and he's getting incredible results for indeed people in our program. But yeah, he's just, he's amazing for what he's doing. He's like young but good. Good.
- [28:48]
Rob
Yeah, sounds great. How about Keeping those recommendations still top. But talking about a book, which book would you recommend and why?
- [28:58]
Tom
I don't know if people can see the bookshelves but there will be too many books that I would recommend. I think the do you want one that is close to like gamification and stuff or what. What are you looking for?
- [29:13]
Rob
Well it's. It's up to you. Of course gamification is always close to our hearts but whatever, whatever you think.
- [29:18]
Tom
Would be most useful to align with gamification. It's called level up. Level up from Rob Dial how to get focused or procrastinating and upgrade your life. He was my first mentor in business so I learned a lot of from him in terms of mindset and working on oneself and once when he came out with the book there's a bunch of very valuable journaling prompts in there because I personally believe if you do self reflection and you you learn how to look at your own behavior and see life indeed as a video game where you are a person who's capable of leveling up as soon as you slay your your dragons and you beat the next level. This book is very very much recommended. It's an easy read, very practical examples in it and I've already read it twice and probably going to read it the third time. So highly recommend.
- [30:21]
Rob
It definitely sounds like a top book to recommend. And in this world of learning and perhaps even a slight side of fun to that learning as well and using neuroscience and all that what would you say is your superpower? That thing that sets you apart from at least most other people that I.
- [30:39]
Tom
Know how to learn. And the reason why is because I think I've. I've for everyone who's listening. I've been in business for three years now and I started already with DID 2021 but I started to execute on it more through roughly in 2023. It's when I quit my full time job and decided to go full in and I think my ability to grasp content very fast and apply it which is the most important plus create new things from what I learn is giving me an unfair advantage in business and the development of our brand. And with that we've grown almost 250% compared to last year and the year before. We also grew close to 500% because we're still startup. But yeah like the implementation and learning things fast in terms of sales, in terms of marketing, in terms of leadership I think that is the unfair advantage that I have over other entrepreneurs.
- [31:51]
Rob
Amazing Tom. And now we get to the difficult question of the day, what would you say is your favorite game?
- [31:58]
Tom
I've always been a huge fan of two classic games, FIFA and Call of Duty. And the reason why I think Call of Duty, I think once I looked at my hours played and it was like 24 days playtime because you have that aspect of leveling up and upgrading your weapons, figuring out which which kid is best and being too addicted to those two games, FIFA and Call of Duty actually also made me fail that first year of university that I referred to earlier. I was just too bus playing those two games instead of playing my live game. But yeah, they are definitely my favorite games that I used to play.
- [32:43]
Rob
They are definitely amazing games for sure, for very different reasons. And FIFA, by the way, I think now it has a different name for fc.
- [32:51]
Tom
Yeah, fc.
- [32:52]
Rob
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Indeed, indeed. So Tom, I don't know if there's anything you want to share with the audience before we take off. Of course, let us know where we can find out more about you, your approach, your coaches, your coaching, whatever it is that you're doing in this world so that we can the way we can find you. And I don't know any final words, any wisdom, anything you want to say. It's. It's your time.
- [33:13]
Tom
Yeah. Sweet. So again, one of the things that I like is that you're continuously showing up and you've been making so many episodes. How many have you created by now, do you know?
- [33:24]
Rob
I don't know what number this will be, but by the time we're recording, we launched, I think episode 420 if.
- [33:30]
Tom
I'm not mistaken, 420. So that 420 is probably longer than I've been doing my content game and value online. So very much inspired by that. So I want to do the same. That's why I was thinking about giving away something that I've never shared before. And I shared this with you before we started this podcast. I've created something specifically reserved for your listeners, the engagers, I think you. You call them. And I'm going to give them a study breakthrough bundle which consists of basically two things. And they can be applied for students, it can be applied for working professionals. And before I tell what it is, let me explain exactly who it is for such that they can see if they resonate. It can be for a student, working professional entrepreneur who's experiencing challenges with procrastination, feeling overwhelmed or time pressure, and they want to learn more efficiently and effectively, get the same unfair advantage as I just shared with you, staying More consistent and actually remember what they learn and apply it. And right now it might feel like you're working super hard and they don't see the results. That probably has them frustrated, doubting their abilities. They might think that they are slow learners, which you are not. Because if you apply the right methods, you can do so. And what you really need is indeed science backed systems to manage your time, to focus and to retain knowledge, like way faster. So that's what I'll help you with. What I created is something that we first call a PACER studied blueprint. And it's a step by step framework that helps you learn more with active recall, which is the thing that I talked about earlier. It has a guaranteed way to remember things that you read a lot faster so you can be more in control, confident and learn things from business, from your work or maybe in your, in your studies. And the second thing, as I shared earlier, the biggest challenge that people have is eventually procrastination. So we created the Anti Procrastination Masterclass series and it's a video training and a workbook. So also some actionable steps that they can fill out on the worksheet, which helps with the name.
- [35:50]
Rob
Action on what they're learning.
- [35:51]
Tom
Exactly, exactly. The, the name gives it away. They, they stop procrastinating and they plan their week like top performers. Ultimately what they will help is eliminate procrastination, staying more consistent, leveling up their life. There's principles from the book that I shared such that they can start to be more proud and feel more confident in what they do. So if you want to access that Study Breakthrough bundle, I put together a bundle on my Instagram page. My Instagram page is very simple. You go to my Instagram, which is the study coach and if you send me a DM with the word professor based on this, this podcast, you can grab it. So once again, if you want the PACER Study blueprint and the Anti Procrastination Masterclass series, just go to Study Coach and DM me the word professor, which I set up exclusively for this podcast. And you'll get immediate access with the link inside of your DMS. We automate and gamify our DMs and the whole shebang a lot there as well.
- [37:00]
Rob
Let's do this. Amazing. Tom, thanks very much for taking the time, for investing your time, your experience, your knowledge into the engagers because basically they are getting a lot of this value that you're offering right now. I loved connecting sort of back to some of my roots with education. You know, but sort of everything started for me with education, with learning. Talked about Barbara, Dr. Barbara Oakley some point, like many of these things brought back so great memories for me. However, Tom and the engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it's game over. Hey Engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you're interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement, loyalty using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community at Professor Game On School. You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to click there. Join us. It's a platform called School. It's for free and you'll find plenty of resources. There will be up to date with everything that we're doing, any opportunities that we might have for you and of course, before you go onto your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.
- [38:23]
Tom
Hey y'. All. As a growing family, my husband and I love game night. Especially when it's Wayfair Edition. Let's do it.
- [38:29]
Rob
You gotta name as many Wayfair furniture.
- [38:31]
Tom
And decor categories as you can. Ready? Go.
- [38:35]
Rob
Sofas, bar stools, beds, ottomans, outdoor seating, bookshelves, kitchen tables, garden sheds, mid century modern lamps. Time.
- [38:43]
Tom
Nice.
- [38:43]
Rob
You got nine out of a lot. Not too bad.
- [38:47]
Tom
Keep practicing by visiting Wayfair.com where you can shop every style for every home. Wayfair Every style, every home.