← Profits with Pajak
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- [00:01]
A
Have you ever walked onto a property and thought this lawn needs to be completely redone, but the customer just wants you to spray the weeds and make it look better? What do you do when the right answer isn't the answer the customer wants to hear? Today I got a real situation for my buddy Joe depace. He's out of Michigan. He has a lawn full of nibblewill and a decision that every one of us is going to have to make at some point. You tear it all out and start it over. Or do you try to work with what's there and manage expectations along the way? So let's get into it.
- [00:37]
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Today's episode is brought to you by Yardbook, the all in one CRM for your lawn care business. And as an exclusive partner of this podcast, you can get started today and begin simplifying your business and maximizing your profits. Sign up now@yardbook.com the link is in. The show notes Time now for Profits with Paycheck, an essential podcast for you in the green industry who are looking to unlock the full potential of your business. Hosted by John Pajac, your certified financial coach, the show features in depth discussions with successful entrepreneurs, thought leaders and industry experts. Providing practical advice and proven strategies on financial planning, operations, marketing and sales. Profits with Paycheck has valuable insights and action steps that you can implement today for creating long term success. Now here's John Pak.
- [01:39]
A
Welcome to Profits with Paycheck, the podcast where we talk about business strategies and financial insights for the green industry. I'm your host, John Pajak. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about a real world situation that unfolds in real time. This is in theory, this is no textbook answer. It's just two operators looking at a lawn and trying to figure out the best path forward. Not just for the turf, but for the client. So I, I got a text from my buddy Joe depace. He sends me some photos of this property he's working on in Michigan and cool season grass. And right away I could see it. It's nimble will. It's all through the front lawn. Now if you've been in this game for any amount of time, you know that this is not your typical weed problem. This isn't something you hit with a standard application and call it fixed. You know, at this point, this is one of those situations when the lawn, you know, is basically compromised because once you start removing that nimble will, you're not just revealing the a beautiful thick turf that's hidden underneath most of the time you're going to be exposing bare ground. And that's where this whole thing starts to shift and where this leads into a problem. Because now the client's expectations are going to be changing, okay? Because now it's no longer just a weed control job. Now it becomes a renovation conversation. And here's where a lot of us run into trouble. You know, the client's thinking, hey, I hired you to take care of my lawn. Just spray it and make it look better. But what they don't understand is there may not be enough desirable grass there to recover. So if we do what they're asking, we might actually make the lawn look worse before it gets better. And if we don't communicate that clearly, guess who gets blamed? Yep, it's us. So Joe's looking at this lawn and he's thinking through the options. On one hand, you've got a full renovation route, killing off everything, you know, starting from scratch, reseeding it, rebuilding it the right way. It's just a nice clean slate. But that comes with cost and time inconvenience, and it requires a full buy in from the client. On the other hand, you've got a more gradual approach. You know, something that works with the lawn as it sits today. It improves over time, but it, you know, it also, it big builds towards a, a bigger transformation later, but it's not fast, and they're going to have to deal with it until, you know, they, they have to let some things happen first. Now, neither option is wrong, but they lead to two very different conversations. So here's the part that made this situation even more interesting. You know, Joe had reached out and told them previously about the renovation option, and the client didn't respond. Joe laid out what he was thinking and got silence. Now you're stuck in a weird spot. Do you move forward with what you think is right? Do you wait? You simplify the message? Do you change the recommendation? You know, and this is where being a technician isn't enough. You've got to be able to communicate, educate, and guide the client through a decision they were not expecting to make. So I, as Joe and I are going back and forth, I have a slightly different approach in mind. Something that didn't involve tearing the entire lawn down all the way. We weren't going to nuke it per se, but it's something that could improve their what's there now while setting up the lawn for a strong recovery late in the season. But more importantly, it was a, I think it's going to be a Way to bridge the gap between what the client thought they were buying and what the client actually needed. So it started, you know, just to set this up, you know, Joe again, Joe sent me some texts. So instead of trying to hash this out over text, I told Joe, hey, let's just jump on a call. We hit record, and what you're about to hear is a real conversation between two operators working through what the right move actually is for the lawn. We discuss how to communicate to the client and how to move forward with the best solution. A lot of times the best solution isn't the easiest one to sell. So we're going to dive right into that after we get this, after we go through our, our little ads here, just real quick, you're going to hear one about Equip Expo. And I'm telling you today is when you hear this, it's going to be May 27, and these tickets are about to go out of their super low early bird price and they're about to have a price hike. So if you're interested in going to Equip Expo, the best opportunity for you to get the cheapest tickets is right Now. Because by May 31, the prices go up. So keep that in mind. Back when I was getting my lawn care business off the ground, I was juggling routes, invoices and customer notes with paper and prayers. It was chaos. Until I found Yardbook. Yardbook gave me the structure. It helped me track chemicals, route efficiently, invoice faster, and most importantly, it helped me grow a profitable business. If you're tired of duct taping your systems Together, go to yardbook.com and sign up for free. And if you're ready to go premium, use promo code PAYJACK to get your first 30 days on me.
- [07:36]
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Are you mowing lawns, running crews, and still wondering where all the money went? You're not alone. Naylor Taliaferro of LCR Media has been there. And that's exactly why he created Profit Accelerator Live. Join Naylor and expert speakers John Pajak and Eric Triplett for two powerful days of hands on workshops designed specifically for lawn care and landscaping business owners in Richmond, Virginia, June 26th and 27th. This isn't a conference where you'll sit in the back and take notes. You'll leave with an actual business plan in hand, knowing exactly what to charge, how to manage your time, and how to attract better customers. Tickets are just $299, but right now you can bring a partner or fellow business owner free with our two for one special. Tickets are just $299, but right now you can bring a partner or fellow business owner free. With our 2 for 1 special, only 75 spots are available and they will fill up fast. Use the link in the show description or go to profitacceleratorlive.com to secure your spot today. Put more money in the bank and more time in your schedule with profit
- [08:47]
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accelerator Live Equip Expo 2026 is coming up October 20th through the 23rd in Louisville, Kentucky. If you're serious about growing your business, this is where you need to be talking. Live equipment demos, the latest technology, and thousands of contractors all in one place, sharing what's actually working right now. And here's the deal. Tickets are normally $120, but right now you can get them for $12.50 when you use promo code PAYJACK. That's 50% off the already discounted early bird price. But this deal expires May 31 and prices go up after that. So don't wait on this. Lock in your ticket now get in the room and I'll see you there. Use promo code payjack. The link is in the show notes. And grab your ticket today. Hello? Hey, bud, what's up?
- [09:38]
C
Yeah, I just, I just texted you a quick picture. I was able to ID type of grass growing in someone's lawn, and it looks like it's a nimble weed and just having a little bit of trouble figuring out ways to approach it. It's not necessarily, you know, some, some types of grasses like sedge grass and crab grass, they're covered in our program. But a grass like this that's taken over predominantly clay lawn, just kind of having a little bit of trouble about the best way putting your next foot forward and communicating that to the customer.
- [10:13]
A
Yeah. Is that where you're finding that nimble weed or nimble. Sorry, nimble will is that is like kind of like a thin area where it's like, it gets wet a lot.
- [10:27]
C
Yeah. And it's also mo. It's mowed very short because it's the front.
- [10:31]
A
Ah, yeah.
- [10:32]
C
You know, when you're kind of going from sidewalk to the street, so you're kind of coming up that curb, you know, and you're. You're not level. I guess your mower, they push, mow it, you can tell it's cut, it's cut shorter. Usually people who push mow do. So you know, what they've noticed, initial contact for them is that it just keeps growing and getting worse. They actually called it crabgrass at first and I reached out to let them know, because that was in April, that it's not crab grass. You know, more than likely it's not because, you know, we're getting the 40, 45 at night. It wouldn't thrive and you know, or when it wouldn't be alive in temperatures like that. It turned purple at that temperature. So kind of. You ever have a lawn where it's just so many weeds, if you spray it, there would be no lawn left. Pretty much that Nimble Will kind of. Kind of the same thing. If I spray that whole lawn, there's not going to be much lawn left. So that would entail renovation work. And it's tough because they're on the expectation, you know, they have an existing lawn and they want that gone. And, you know, if you spray, whether that's the correct herbicide or total kill, you're going to be. You're going to be looking at some kind of, you know, what was once there is now closer to dirt than it is closer to turf.
- [11:58]
A
Yeah.
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C
Yeah.
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A
You know, like, for me, like I would, you know, to just to kill that stuff. You know, you could use mesotrione the tenacity. But it's going to take a couple applications. You're going to need like 2. I don't know how bad the infestation is usually 2, but it. Sometimes it might take 3. And that nimble Will is going to turn white. Some of the surrounding turf might turn a little white too, but it's not going to kill it. The big thing with Nimble Will, you definitely want to mix it with a sticker. I would, I would use that stuff that you. Yeah, that Old Spice stuff that you guys use. I love that. I love that adjuvant. Forgot the name of it. But anyway.
- [12:49]
C
Fresh cut.
- [12:50]
A
Fresh cut. Yeah. That stuff's awesome, man. I swear. It's just Old Spice. But it's labeled for the lawn.
- [12:57]
C
Yeah. It smells more like a cologne than it's supposed to smell like fresh cut grass.
- [13:01]
A
Yeah. If not, like, if you, you know, there's another. But yeah, I mean, I would probably come at it with two or three rounds of that because you know, it's going to thin out and you know, when you're using me as a trion, you can still. There's still a window where you could overseed it too, so.
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C
Right.
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A
It's not going to.
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C
A lot of people use that as a pre. And they also want to seed in the spring. They use. They use that tenacity.
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A
Right. You know, there's.
- [13:33]
C
So they can do both.
- [13:34]
A
I think it's new farm. I think new farm came out with it. But there's a. Basically there's this like, trip. If you got other weeds too that are kind of hard to take care of, they've got this, it's called Sublime. It mixes Mezatrione with triclopyr and dicamba too. So that thing that.
- [13:59]
C
That's a top mix.
- [14:00]
A
That's a great. Yeah, but it's because they mix it themselves, you know, like, we're not mixing it. I mean, I can get. I. I really can't get dicamba by itself. But, you know, they mix those three and it will basically clean up most cool season grasses, like, really well. The thing is, again, like you're saying, like their lawn is kind of already. They've got an established lawn, but they're just trying to get rid of the weeds. But they, I don't think they realize that getting rid of the weeds is also going to leave bare spots that need to be filled in.
- [14:37]
C
So it's like spray it. We want it gone. Well, what, you know, it's like, well, what's left? You know, like if you had a peanut butter jelly sandwich and you're like, well, I don't like jelly. And you're scraping all the jelly out and next thing you know you got two pieces of bread.
- [14:52]
A
Right.
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C
You know, you got no more filling.
- [14:54]
A
Yeah, we kind of had to take out the. We had to take out some of the peanut butter too, because the jelly was sticking to it. You know, I don't know if this will help you, but I would preface this with your, your, your customer. I would tell them, I'd be like, listen, the state, you know, set expectations. I would say, listen, this is where you, the state of your lawn is right now. You have a lot of weeds. We can kill the weeds. What's going to happen is you're going to have a lot of bare spots because those weeds are going to die and it's just going to perpetuate. You know, we can, we could fill in smaller areas. Like, you know, if you have a 2, 3 inch gap with Kentucky bluegrass, that could fill in with proper nutrition. But you know, if you have bigger, like pie plate size or bigger, it definitely going to have to talk about seeding. And you know, I would probably let them know that, yeah, we could kill the weeds, but you're also going to need overseeding and maybe, maybe pick like a. I mean, you're in Michigan and you've got mostly Kentucky bluegrass. I know you have turf type, tall fescue. I would probably. What's your mix? Your grass mix that you generally use
- [16:19]
C
like a rye and a fescue. A rye, fescue and Kentucky blue.
- [16:24]
A
Okay.
- [16:24]
C
That way with the fluctuating temperatures, you can maintain, you know, green lawn. Because a lot of people that, you know, get like a Kentucky bluegrass sod laid down on a new construction home and it won't green up till the end of May, and they're looking around left and right on established lawns and they're thinking, well, my lawn's dead. It's not dead, it's storming.
- [16:45]
A
Right, Right.
- [16:47]
C
A lot of. A lot of lawns that are older, like 10 to 20 years. Especially in this area. It's very clay. The base, everything's clay. I mean, all these developments here, they strip the top. So everybody knows that story. For new for these subdivisions. Right. Built 20 years ago, Nimble will, timothy grass, orchard grass. And a lot of it is because of that clay. And just improper mowing, you know, just mow it real short. Mow it real short. Crowding out their old sod, turning into those, you know, undesired grasses. I did mention in my email response to them, I just identified that it's not crab grass. Yes, that is undesired grass. I mentioned there's so much, you know, because usually you can either just dig it out mechanically, you know, try to take the less chemical approach, less pesticides the better, you know, if you have some. But it's just so written on the front lawn that, you know, I didn't initially offer, you know, the mess of the tenacity, a few applications of that. I was more of the route, hey, if we're not going to do it mechanically and there's so much of it, we can start over, total kill and reseed. And I said, if you want me to take a closer look or even come out this week to take a closer look and see our options, let me know a day that works. I'll be happy to help. And I didn't get a response. Right now I'm kind of in this limbo. It's like, okay, I'm going to continue the program with this undesired grass without any green light to change the program or have a different approach for this grass. And I just don't want them to be unhappy or end up firing me. Even though the communication was made or stride to made for a solution.
- [18:53]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, ultimately, it's the customer's choice. We know what we want to do. I Mean, if you, you know, honestly, I trust your opinion. If you looked at it and said, hey, I think we should do a total restart. You know, that's. Sometimes that's a hard one to pull. Like, not. It's not a hard assessment to make because there's a lot of lawns that I take over that are. I'm like, man, we, we'd be better off just killing this off and then starting from scratch because it's just. There's so little grass and the, the grasses that are there are not the ideal grass types anyway. You know, they. So many, so many times I've come to a property that's, you know, a newer build and it's, you know, they got sod in the front, they got the seed, those, those damn haymail hay bale mats or whatever they call them. I forgot what they are. They're actually, they're really more for, you know, slopes and everything. But, you know, they tend to put those down even on flat ground. And then the seed that's in it doesn't germinate very well. And it's kind of like you don't know what it. Because I'll, I'll get those lawns and they'll have every. I mean, you'll have like, it looks like weeds, but it's like a bad and not a. I shouldn't say bad. It's not the appropriate, like fescue growing in there. It's like orchard grass or it's, you know, something that you'd put out into pasture like K31 or K32, you know, and it's like, those are not ideal for home lawns. Those are actually meant for foraging and, you know, like, if you got horses and stuff. But, you know, there's been times when I tell them, I'm like, I think we'd be better off just, you know, killing this all off and then receding. And, you know, that's a, A lot of times that's a really, that's a hard sell because that's out of their budget. They just thought, yeah, oh, you know, you could come in and spray it and you know, so I think it's
- [20:59]
C
going to look like next door. It's like when you look at the cost of it, it's honestly almost 10% of what it would be for sod, if sod for a normal subdivision home is 8 to 15,000, depending on square footage, quality and the contractor putting it in. You know, builders, you know, always advertise like, you know, 5 to 10 on the cheaper side. And then, you know, 10 to 15 seems to be like a sweet spot for quarter acre, third acre. I mean, just roughly speaking, right? You know, you're, let's say you're at 10,000 for an average, you know, reseeding, you could get, you know, close to 10 to 15% of that. And not only are you starting over, but you're clean, slating. It's like, imagine trying to cook in the kitchen. We've all done it. There's mail on the table, keys, your kids, backpacks from school on the chair, and you're trying to, you know, make your five, six step family recipe. And then you end up saying, all right, I'm going to pause, let's stop. I'm going to just take every, everybody's stuff and belongings that isn't, isn't even supposed to necessarily be in the kitchen and put it over here so I have a clean table to work on. It's kind of how it goes with these undesired grasses. And, you know, there's been times where you've, I've lost customers because it's not what they wanted to hear, or maybe I didn't communicate it properly. I'll admit that, you know, there's times I've handled it wrong, or there's times where the customer says, well, I'm just going to hire someone that will tell me they can just spray it and it'll grow back in fine without any renovation. Haven't followed up with those people. But.
- [22:36]
A
Yeah, I know, I, you know, again, it's, I think it is about education as well as, like, hey, you let me do what I, I do best, trust me, and we'll get this looking good. But you know, some of the things too is like if they don't change the environment, they're gonna get it again. You know what I mean? It's like, right, you can, you can
- [23:02]
C
spray it and some of it can come back. It's not, it's not always a permanent or an indefinite thing as well.
- [23:10]
A
Right. So I mean, you know, you kind of have to let, you know, as a professional, we kind of have to lay it all out for him and say, listen, the reason Nimble Wills, you know, this specific, you know, grass, or it's, I mean, it's technically, technically it's not a weed. It's just like another kind of grass. Even though we, we classify it as a weed. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's like, okay, if you start getting this again, it's like, first of all, I would Say, hey, if this is like a, you know, it thrives in shady, damp areas, it's like if there's a way that we can, if it's like a low area, maybe hit that filled in a little bit so that it, that doesn't become the, you know, target area for this stuff again. Maybe you gotta aerate the soil or maybe get some, you know, other drainage to make sure that that stays normal, you know, within the parameters.
- [24:10]
C
Right. You start putting that out there and the customers hearing dollar signs. Dollar signs, right. That's really what it takes. Same thing like when the doctor tells you like, well, if you don't want me to pump you up with drugs, you got to do this approach and this approach in your life. And it's, it's not always, you know.
- [24:27]
A
Yeah. Hey, listen, you know, not to get off on a tangent, but like we give you Ozembic, which yeah, you're going to lose weight but you're also going to lose muscle mass and all these terrible, your face is going to look terrible and all this other stuff. But yeah, you're going to lose weight or you could change your diet, exercise, get some sunlight, do some, you know, lift heavy things and you know, it might take longer or who knows, maybe, maybe it'll be the same speed, I don't know. But you know, you're going to get better results long term. You're not going to have side effects and stuff by doing it naturally. But you know, I guess in a nutshell it's like, you know, one we'd have to specifically nimble make sure that, you know, that the soil gets drained. Right. So it doesn't come back. They got to make sure they're not cutting it so low, you know, 3 to 5 inch, 3 to 3 to 3, not 3 to 5. 3 to 3.5 inches is ideal for Kentucky bluegrass and you know, a turf type tall fescue. Sometimes we cut it higher, but you know, at least a business I. My rule of thumb with that is like if you turn a business card on its end, it should be that tall.
- [25:37]
C
Yeah, this is about half the business. It's about two inches. Two and a, or two and a half inches.
- [25:42]
A
Oh yeah, that's too short.
- [25:44]
C
You can see, you can see the ground displays the grass.
- [25:49]
A
So you know, what you might want to just suggest is be like, look, we're going to get everything cleaned up and then in late, late summer, early fall, that's the best time for us and you know, Michigan and kind of the Midwest to overseed and you Know, just be like, look, this is what we're going to do. We're going to get everything cleaned up, then we're going to make room for the new seed and then, you know, move on from there. You know that just to temper their expectations.
- [26:19]
C
That sounds like a good approach. I like that. I'm going to try maybe to reach out to them again. It's been about a month now and see if that's still something that's bothering them, looking at their lawn every day, or if it's something that the solutions I already previously offered. They're like, well, we can deal with it. We'll just keep chugging along.
- [26:42]
A
I would lay out the master plan of, you know, whether you do a total kill or you just spray it all out, but just be like, these are the steps and just lay it out for them. You know, be like, we are going to take care of it. We're going to take care of the weed. We're going to get it removed. You're going to notice bare spots, thinner areas. We're going to wait, we're going to feed the lawn to try to get it, to rejuvenate it by itself. And then we will plan late summer, early fall, the overseeding, and then make sure that they understand that there's a watering obligation that they have to meet. So they say, yes, then, hey, you're good. If not, then customer gets what they want, you know.
- [27:25]
C
Right.
- [27:26]
A
But anyway, man. Any other questions?
- [27:31]
C
No, I think that was it. Glad you could take a look at that. And for anyone, you know, for anyone, it's like nimble weed is like, to everyone, it's like it's crab grass.
- [27:42]
A
Yeah, I know.
- [27:42]
C
Thicker blade, it's growing on the edges. It's growing in the same environment that people would see crabgrass.
- [27:50]
A
Right. Yeah.
- [27:52]
C
Looking at it right now, I picked a piece.
- [27:54]
A
There's no way it's crabgrass because, I mean, we just came out of like 58 degree weather with, you know, lows of, you know, in the upper 30s. There's, you know, anytime it freezes, it's like a restart and we've, I can't. I mean, it was probably, I don't know, maybe three weeks ago. We, we, we hit a freeze overnight again and we're in May. So.
- [28:18]
C
Yeah, no, everybody's Mother's Day flowers didn't get planted. Yeah, they didn't get planted right away.
- [28:23]
A
Yeah.
- [28:24]
C
But every, every, every undesired grass is crabgrass in the fur world. Exactly is what you hear. And that's okay. It's just job to educate and figure. Figure, figure out what to do moving forward. So I like that plan. Give that a shot.
- [28:43]
A
Yeah. Well, hey, man, I'll let you get back in the field. I know you're out there right now, but I just wanted to, you know, help you out there. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll put this in the show, huh?
- [28:53]
C
I, I'll be listening. I'm listening. I'm doing my, my afternoon one one to five is my, When I listen nice shows. I'll be throwing stuff on.
- [29:05]
A
All right.
- [29:05]
C
All of Marty shows.
- [29:06]
A
I say all of Marty's shows. Yeah. Mr. Producer, you've gotta give, give Marty his flowers, you know, Mr. Producer. So. All right, man. Well, thanks for, thanks for giving me a call and everything. I'm glad I could help you out. I just thought this would be a good one to talk about real stuff that people are facing. And it's like, you know what? Let me just, let me just touch the button. Let me touch the button, sir. All right, my friend. This was Joe to Pace. He's up out of Michigan. Beppy's Lawn Care, one of the best fertilization weed control companies in the area. Good friend of mine. I'm glad I could help him with his issues. So anyway, people, we will talk to you soon as always, God bless. Keep pushing through and we'll catch you on the next one. Thank you once again for listening. If you've enjoyed the show, please leave a review and share it with fellow business owners. Your support means the world to me and helps keep the show going strong. I want to give a special shout out to our friends at Yardbook. Their continued support has been instrumental in bringing this podcast to you week after week. If you haven't checked them out yet, visit yardbook.com and see how they can give you the tools to streamline and manage your lawn care business. Also, don't forget to explore the resources and upcoming events that I've collected just for you in the show Notes. These are curated to help you stay ahead in your business with the latest tips, tools and networking opportunities. Whether it's a new tool, an insightful article, or an event you don't want to miss, I've got you covered. Until next time, keep pushing through and God bless. Sam.