Murder at the Warehouse | Ep. 16 – Junior and The Source

Summary

Proof: Murder at the Warehouse | Ep. 16 – "Junior and The Source" Summary

Main Theme

In this penultimate episode of Season 2, hosts Susan Simpson and Jacinda Davis deepen their investigation into the murder of Renee Ramos by exploring overlooked leads centering on two key figures: "Junior", a former friend of prime alternative suspect Jared Conway, and "the Source", a figure from the fringes of the main suspect group. Through harrowing firsthand interviews and the unearthing of long-suppressed testimonies, the episode explores the web of mistrust, fear, and indifference that allowed the true circumstances of Renee’s murder to remain obscured—possibly resulting in the wrongful convictions of Jake Silva and Ty Lopes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jake Silva’s Cautious Hope ([01:26]–[02:35])

• The hosts reflect on Jake Silva’s emotional distance from new developments in his case, emphasizing his reluctance to get his hopes up after years of disappointment.
• Quote (Jake/Kelly):
  “I can't get excited about this… If you don't get your hopes up, it can't be crushed.” ([01:39])
• Jake’s focus remains getting justice for Renee and closure for her mother, rather than his own exoneration.

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2. Investigating Tim Fisher and the “Sister’s House” Group ([04:52]–[15:44])

• Victoria, mother of Jake’s friend Louis, is revisited as the first to urge the team to consider Tim Fisher as a suspect. Her conviction—shared by others—rests on years of coincidences and rumors within their social circle.
• Quote (Victoria):
  “Anybody with half a brain and that many coincidences you think would come to the same conclusion?” ([05:32])
• Victoria claims Tim’s ex, Amber, once blurted that Tim "got away with murder," and confided his penchant for choking partners, which Amber confirms as a regular and concerning behavior. Amber, though, denies she meant the 'murder' comment literally ([08:30]–[14:15]).
• Amber describes her 10-year relationship with Tim as violent and disturbing, remembering rumors that Tim had once been suspected in Renee’s case.
• Despite these suspicions, Amber observes that Tim, a habitual storyteller, never actually boasted or shared stories implicating himself in Renee’s case, making her doubt his direct involvement but not his capacity for violence ([15:22]).

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3. Junior’s Testimony: The Jared Conway Connection ([20:59]–[47:40])

• Junior, a former close friend of Jared Conway, comes forward, risking his own freedom and safety (as a wanted man) to share crucial memories.
• Quote (Junior):
  “I don't care one bit. …Telling what he knows about Jared Conway is that important to him.” ([21:30])
• Junior describes Jared as odd but not immediately perceived as violent—until the abduction of Junior’s 14-year-old niece revealed Jared’s predatory side ([23:20]).
• Crucial recollections tie Jared to the time and area of Renee’s murder—e.g., Jared’s peculiar knowledge of crime scene details and unprompted references to Renee’s strangulation ([24:35]–[25:44]).
• Quote (Junior):
  “He goes, ‘that's where that [girl] got strangled.’ …That really caught my attention.” ([25:21])
• Junior recounts growing suspicions and inside jokes among their friends about Jared's involvement, which, over time, became serious concern ([29:17]).
• Jared’s apparent need to revisit places near the crime scene—the Home Depot and the neighboring Bank of the West—further unsettled Junior ([31:08]).
• The aftermath of Jared’s abduction of Junior’s niece, his suspected involvement in another murder in Memphis, and his eventual confessions are discussed, raising the possibility he could have also confessed to Renee’s murder to the authorities—though, due to withheld records, the team can't determine if this ever happened.

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4. The Source: Internal Accounts from the Sister’s House ([51:28]–[66:14])

• Kelly, an informant, relays the story of “the Source,” who directly interacted with key members of the “sister’s house” group the night of Renee’s murder.
• The Source recounts Jamie (one of the sisters) and Tim arriving home from a supposed party at Home Depot acting distraught and frantic ([54:03]).
• Quote (The Source):
  “...she looked distraught. She looked like scared, nervous. And I was like, what's wrong Jamie? And she just like shaking her head no, like she couldn't talk, like tears coming out of her eyes…” ([55:48])
• The Source discovers strange, unfamiliar white tennis shoes at the house shortly after their return. These may have matched a secondary pair Renee was known to own ([56:46]).
• Attempts to return the shoes and a backpack to other group members are rebuffed with evasions, fueling suspicion ([58:28]–[61:04]).
• The Source and others (notably Eric Greer) began to suspect the group was hiding something.
• Quote (The Source):
  “He goes, ‘They won't let me off the roof, bro, because I know too much.’” ([63:06])
• The Source ultimately went to police prior to Jake and Ty’s convictions, saying they had the wrong suspects, but was ignored—a potential Brady violation ([69:30]–[71:35]).
• Quote (The Source):
  “I went to the police and told them that they'd arrested the wrong people. …they told me I needed to just let it go.” ([69:09], [71:35])

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5. Challenges of Truth and Coming Forward ([45:04], [49:06], [68:47])

• Junior and the Source both emphasize the personal risk and ostracism that comes with telling the truth in their social worlds.
• Quote (Junior):
  “That almost cost me my life just for saying that. Even though it's the right thing to do. But those people in there, they don't think it's the right thing to do…” ([44:52])
• The Source observes the moral apathy that pervaded the group.
  Quote (The Source):
  “Why would you just roll with something like that? ...What happened was wrong. It was so wrong. And at the time, I didn't give a shit. And I knew I was risking my ass full blast.” ([68:47])

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6. Critical Takeaways and End of Episode Developments ([74:10]–[76:23])

• After the team confronts Conway (via prison correspondence) with news that Junior has spoken out and questions about another possible victim ("Mary" in Memphis), Conway claims—unconvincingly—that he’s had a stroke and cannot remember them, a move the hosts believe is an attempt to dodge further questions ([74:37]–[75:36]).
• The hosts prepare to follow up in Memphis with the cold case unit for the season finale, still seeking definitive links between Conway and Renee’s murder.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Junior, on why he spoke to the podcast team:
  “Because, you know, it's like, look, I live my life. This kid's been—he's took [it]... If I got here, then I got cuffed... I brought $3,000 in my pocket to put on my books...” ([46:44])
• Susan Simpson, on the gravity of the source's ignored tip to police:
  “If what the source says about telling Sergeant Harris what he knew is true, that's a Brady violation and if proven, would likely have been sufficient to overturn both Jake's and Ty's convictions. ...the police ...never disclosed it.” ([70:00]–[71:35])
• Eric Greer’s predicament, related by the Source:
  “They won't let me off the roof, bro, because I know too much.” ([63:19])
• Susan Simpson, on what these testimonies mean:
  “What Junior knows is far short of being proof that Jared Conway was involved in Renee's murder. But we owed it to Junior to take what he told us seriously and to do everything in our power to find out if Conway really was responsible for this crime.” ([44:01])

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• [01:26] – Jake Silva’s struggle with hope and the justice system
• [05:22] – Revisiting Victoria and emerging suspicions about Tim Fisher
• [14:15] – Amber’s harrowing account of her relationship with Tim
• [21:30] – Junior’s story begins: his friendship and ruptures with Jared Conway
• [25:21, 31:08] – Jared’s suspicious “confessions” and odd behaviors
• [37:39] – Junior sacrifices his own safety to rescue his niece and alert police
• [44:01] – Considering the Memphis murder and gaps in the investigation
• [51:28] – Introduction of the Source and his key testimony about the “sister’s house”
• [55:48] – The Source describes Jamie and Tim’s post-party distress
• [61:04] – Odd evidence: shoes and backpack left at the sister’s house
• [69:09, 70:00] – The Source alerts police about Jake and Ty’s innocence, is ignored (Brady violation)
• [74:10–75:36] – Jared Conway’s dubious excuse after being confronted with new evidence

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Conclusion and Looking Ahead

This episode exposes critical overlooked leads, suppressed evidence, and the profound personal risks borne by those trying to correct wrongful convictions. As Simpson and Davis prepare to explore the Memphis angle in the season’s final episode, the tangled web of unreliable narrators, ignored witnesses, and legal oversights underscores the difficulty—yet real possibility—of discovering the truth and achieving justice for Renee Ramos and the men still imprisoned for her death.

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For further case files, photos, and transcripts, visit proofcrimepod.com. If you have information about this case, contact the Proof team via their website or voicemail at 929-267-3172.

Transcript

[Junior]

Reggie, I just sold my car online.

[Susan Simpson]

Let's go, Grandpa. Wait, you did?

[Junior]

Yep.

[Susan Simpson]

On Carvana.

[Kelly]

Just put in the license plate, answered.

[Junior]

A few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.

[Susan Simpson]

You don't say. Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow.

[The Source]

Talk about fast.

[Susan Simpson]

Wow. Way to go. So, about that picture frame.

[The Source]

Ah, forget about it.

[Susan Simpson]

Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Jacinda Davis]

Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

[Amber]

You want to send me to Michael Thompson, who bucked the whole ab, dropped out, and testified against them? And you think I'm gonna go there and convince him to recant?

[Susan Simpson]

He has created this illusion of who he is.

[Amber]

I was just stunned that I would have a conversation like this with an ex gang leader.

[Susan Simpson]

I was in the hearing, and I.

[Jacinda Davis]

Thought, oh, oh, my goodness, these girls.

[Susan Simpson]

Are falling for his bullshit. I think they're gonna let this guy out.

[Amber]

The world would be a much better place with this man out. It's like a light just kind of pours out of him. And I was determined to help that light get out into the world.

[The Source]

Blood Memory, a new podcast series from Love and Radio. Search for Blood Memory wherever you get your podcasts.

[Susan Simpson]

For well over a year now, we've been investig investigating Jake's case, turning over every stone we can, and talking to every witness we can track down. Jake has remained cautious, though, about what this might all mean for him.

[Kelly]

I've been thinking a lot about what you said and everything that's been going on. I don't know. I can't get excited about this. Everybody's wondering, like, how come you're not excited? I can't.

[Susan Simpson]

I don't know.

[The Source]

I just.

[Kelly]

Jaded.

[Susan Simpson]

I don't know. If you don't get your hopes up, it can't be crushed. You know what? You don't need to be excited. I can be excited for you.

[The Source]

Wow. Right on.

[Susan Simpson]

You've had enough. Regardless of what any of this may mean for him personally, though, Jake has been excited to hear every new update we have and to find out about every step closer we've gotten to finding out what happened to Renee.

[Kelly]

I'm just glad it's finally the truth is starting to come out. It's a release.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah.

[Kelly]

Huge weight off my chest. I'm more worried about Renee.

[The Source]

Thank you.

[Kelly]

Than anybody else. Like her getting real justice. Her mom deserves it very much as well. You know.

[Susan Simpson]

I do think in the course of our investigation, we've been able to untangle the messy story of how Jake Silva And Tai Lopes got convicted. And how bad evidence put two innocent men behind bars for life. But the question of what happened to Renee remains unanswered.

[Kelly]

It's not secured and solid. It's just floating. I hate that feeling. That's the last thing I ever want this to be. Is an open case, like a cold case or whatever.

[Susan Simpson]

There are answers out there, though. If we're certain of one thing in this case, it's that a lot of people know a lot of things that could end up mattering a lot.

[Jacinda Davis]

If people are out there with information, what would you like to say to them?

[Kelly]

Why wouldn't they come forward? Just out of respect for Renee and for the truth. And I've been sitting here for 20, going on 24 years. I was 18, I'm 42 year old, type 1 diabetic now with a walker. Why wouldn't they come forward? You know, I don't see why they wouldn't come forward.

[Jacinda Davis]

What if they're worried that it would look bad for them or they'd be turning in a friend or something like that?

[Kelly]

I mean, does it matter? The truth is the truth. Even if it's your friend and he did that. I mean, doesn't Renee deserve that justice? Don't I deserve to be free? I mean, what's right is right. What's wrong is wrong.

[Susan Simpson]

It's not that simple, though. Or maybe it is that simple, I don't know. Either way, it doesn't change the reality that for a lot of people, coming forward would be a bigger sacrifice than they're able to make. But with every person who does come forward, we get a little bit closer to finding the truth. I'm Susan Simpson.

[Jacinda Davis]

And I'm Jacinda Davis.

[Susan Simpson]

Proof is a Red Marble Media production in association with Glassbox Media.

[Jacinda Davis]

New episodes are released on Mondays and on Thursdays. You can catch our sidebar episodes where we talk about the case and tell you more about what's going on behind the scenes.

[Susan Simpson]

You are listening to the second to last episode in season two of Proof. This is episode 16, Junior and the Source. The very first person who told us we needed to look at Tim Fisher was Victoria, the mother of Jake's friend Louis. And after our second interview with Tim, we met with Victoria again as well. The truth is, the first time we talked to her, we'd been pretty skeptical of what she'd told us. But we told her we understood now why she'd been concerned.

[Jacinda Davis]

It sounds like you've been waiting a long time to find someone who would Listen to what you have to say. Yeah, but you're not the only one who suspected him.

[Victoria]

Well, anybody with half a brain and that many coincidences you think would come to the same conclusion?

[Susan Simpson]

After talking to Tim for ourselves, I too strongly suspected that he knew more about what happened than he was saying. But withholding information about something that happened is not the same thing at all as being responsible for what happened. We still needed to figure out what exactly Tim might know. And one place to start with that was by talking to people who knew him. We'd had some more questions for Victoria, but when she heard we'd filmed our most recent interview with Tim, she'd wanted to see it for herself.

[Victoria]

Oh, that is Tim. Dim. You see that? Little almost a yawn. Not to tell. As far as he goes, he's turning red. Look at him flushing.

[Kelly]

He's very, very forceful on women when.

[Susan Simpson]

It comes to sexual things. And he's very vulgar.

[Victoria]

He's upset. He's getting out into what I see from knowing him.

[The Source]

Somebody put something in his head too.

[Victoria]

Yes, it does. I could tell. Can I watch that again?

[The Source]

Sure.

[Susan Simpson]

We found it very curious that he did not have any questions for us about this.

[Victoria]

Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

Do you think he didn't ask us who made it?

[Victoria]

Where did he.

[Susan Simpson]

Nothing. Who has it? Why was this made? None of that.

[Victoria]

Yeah, that's what I mean. He'd be much more adamant and forceful. From the tomb. I know.

[Jacinda Davis]

Okay, go ahead and hit that space bar.

[Susan Simpson]

Oh, you thought it was an accident? Maybe.

[Junior]

Well, yeah.

[The Source]

Was he like, you know.

[Junior]

Shut the fuck up.

[Victoria]

I think that's what happened with him and her. I don't know. So freaking sad.

[Jacinda Davis]

I see you're getting upset.

[Victoria]

Well, knowing it and dealing with the reality is.

[Jacinda Davis]

Were you hoping you would hear something today that would convince you you've been wrong?

[Victoria]

No, I didn't hope that. That's how much I think I'm right. Hoping otherwise didn't even enter my mind. I'm hoping that I did it by accident.

[Susan Simpson]

One of the reasons Victoria suspected Tim was because of conversations she'd had with Tim's ex, Amber, while Amber and Tim were still together. And just to be clear, the Amber we're talking about here is not Renee's friend Amber. It's a completely different woman who never lived in Manteca. But Victoria had told us that one night when she and Amber were hanging out and having some drinks together, Amber had made a comment that caught Victoria off guard.

[Victoria]

And all of a sudden she just burts out. Yeah, Tim even got away with murder.

[Junior]

But you think she was talking about Renee?

[Victoria]

Yes, I do. That's what I took it as. Oh, Tim told her.

[Susan Simpson]

Victoria told us that Amber had confided in her about something else as well.

[Jacinda Davis]

We asked him about rumors that he liked to choke people.

[Victoria]

Oh, this will be interesting. See, you deny that.

[Jacinda Davis]

If someone's having sex and they like to strangle people and it goes too far, you end up killing the girl you're probably not gonna finish.

[The Source]

I've never been into that.

[Junior]

I've heard girls say they like shit like that. And that's so fucking creepy.

[Jacinda Davis]

People have told us you are into it.

[Victoria]

Oh, my gosh.

[Susan Simpson]

No.

[Victoria]

As soon as Amber, like, she started confiding in me when we were alone how Tim likes to choke her out. And I was like, everybody has their thing, but if it's something you don't like, then put a quick end to it.

[Susan Simpson]

So why do you think he's denying it there?

[Victoria]

Why? Because he doesn't want anyone to know. You need to talk to Amber.

[Jacinda Davis]

We did talk to Amber. She told us that she first met Tim after he'd left Manteca and was living up in Stockton.

[Amber]

I met him November 3rd of the year 2000. So I don't even know when this case occurred, but I know it all happened before Tim and I. When did this happen? Do you know what year this happened? Obviously you do.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yep. This was June of 2000.

[Amber]

Oh, my God. That was the same year I met him. I thought this happened like, in 96.

[Susan Simpson]

Wow.

[Amber]

I'm in shock by that.

[Jacinda Davis]

Amber had heard about the case. She remembers it being talked about not long after she and Tim first got together.

[Amber]

What I was told I'd heard it from a few of his friends that at some point he had become a suspect. I didn't even know about the case, to be honest. I just remember them talking about it.

[Victoria]

Once in a while.

[Amber]

And him denying was alarming. But he was so adamant about. I wasn't there. I hardly knew her. But fast forward, being with him for 10 years. It turned out to be a very violent relationship that I had to get out of safely.

[Jacinda Davis]

I asked Amber what she remembered Tim's friend saying about the case back when she and Tim first started dating.

[Amber]

It was just maybe a total of three conversations at the very beginning of our relationship that I overheard with his friends.

[Jacinda Davis]

Was it kind of like a joking way that they would talk about it? Like, as him as a suspect?

[Amber]

No, actually, they seemed more serious. And he would just be like, well, that's crazy. But his Friends seem to be pretty serious about the allegations.

[Jacinda Davis]

Do you remember his friends names?

[Amber]

It was his close circle of friends.

[Jacinda Davis]

Amber told us a few names. Among them was Lewis, Jake's friend, the one who referred to Tim as his brother. Lewis would not answer questions about Tim, but he'd also never discouraged us from looking into him. Things made a bit more sense now. All along, maybe Lewis had been wondering about Tim too. We asked Amber what she remembered of Lewis's mom and dad who had been like family to Tim when he was growing up.

[Amber]

He looked up to them like parents and she was very much a mother figure to him. And she was pretty furious over hearing these things about him.

[Jacinda Davis]

Do you recall any details about that?

[Amber]

It was hey, you know, they're talking about you being there, you took it too far type of thing. And he was just, I wasn't me, I wasn't there. I didn't do it.

[Jacinda Davis]

I also asked Amber what Victoria told us she remembered Amber saying many years ago how there was a night she and Amber had been drinking daiquiris and Tim had stepped out for a moment when Amber made a comment like Tim's even gotten away with murder. I asked Amber about this. No, she said she never had the thought that Tim had killed anyone. Gotten away with murder is just a figure of speech. Amber said she would never have meant that literally. And if Amber ever did make an offhand comment like Victoria remembers, she wouldn't have been talking about Renee. She probably would have been talking about herself and the things Tim had gotten away with doing to her. But Victoria had told us about another conversation she'd had with Amber. About how Amber had told her Tim was choking her during sex. About how and that she didn't like it and was concerned that he might go too far. That conversation had happened. Amber told me she remembered it clearly. What was going on with Tim had alarmed her. So much so that at one point when she and Victoria were alone, Amber had confided in her. Tim had denied to us that he was into that, but Amber said that's not true. It was his go to move, she said. But that was not the only problem in their relationship.

[Amber]

There's times where I ran for my life. When I called the police In January of 2009, I was hiding under a semi truck next door and he was out walking the streets looking for me, telling me he was going to kill me.

[Jacinda Davis]

Tim was arrested and ordered to take domestic violence classes. And that's where apparently Tim had watched the video on domestic violence that features Renee's murder. And shown the photos of her body lying on the floor of the Home Depot. One thing Amber did warn us was that we shouldn't take everything Tim says seriously.

[Amber]

Tim's kind of a blowhard, you know, he just likes to talk shit.

[Jacinda Davis]

So that's also a reason why she was so shocked to hear what Timmis had to say on the podcast. After being with him for a decade, Amber thought she'd heard all of Tim's stories. But the stories she's heard him tell on proof, she'd never heard him talk about before.

[Amber]

Every time his friends would bring up this whole case, he had nothing to say except, oh, she was my friend. I wouldn't do that. And Tim is that type of guy that if he had a story and he was connected to it, he wants to talk about it. So he would have said, oh, yeah, I have this. I had him in the car this one time, and da, da, da, da. And I've never heard him say those things. I don't know.

[Jacinda Davis]

I just.

[Amber]

When I hear what he has to say on the podcast, it's. Listen, how do I describe it? How do I say this? Okay, so I know him so well that I know the tone and his nervous laugh when he lies. And most of what I hear, he's lying.

[Jacinda Davis]

We've heard this from several people who know Tim. If Tim was lying, though, then why? I mean, there's the obvious answer. Of course, he could be lying to cover up some involvement in the crime, but we're not so sure it's that simple. What if Tim wasn't being entirely forthcoming with us to cover up something else? What if he was trying to hide something that he knows looks bad for him, even if he wasn't actually involved at all? That'd be equally consistent with what we'd learned so far. And Tim is far from the only person in this case we've spoken to who we believe was less than truthful. For example, Jared Conway, the serial sex offender, told us he'd never even heard about Renee's case, but that was absolutely untrue. So why had Jared Conway lied to us about that?

[Susan Simpson]

This summer, when Jacinda and I were investigating out in the field, we basically both lived in quints. Close.

[Jacinda Davis]

It is so true. I think everything I packed came from quints.

[Susan Simpson]

Luckily, I wear color and you don't, so we didn't end up being twinsies, which would have been awkward, but, you.

[Jacinda Davis]

Know, oh, you don't want to be twinsies with me, Susan.

[Susan Simpson]

I prefer to have colors other than grayscale.

[Jacinda Davis]

Well, it's because you have quints then, because they have both black stuff for me and colorful stuff for you.

[Susan Simpson]

The problem is it is now cold as heck and we need new clothes to go out in the field or I'm not going.

[Jacinda Davis]

Well, go back to quints. I just ordered some cashmere sweaters that are super warm and super comfortable.

[Susan Simpson]

That's funny because I'm actually literally about to buy the Mongolian cashmere sweatshirt.

[Jacinda Davis]

You should totally do that. I splurged and I got my husband the Mongolian cashmere pullover hoodie, which is really nice.

[Susan Simpson]

And you're gonna steal it, I'm sure.

[Jacinda Davis]

I was gonna say I'm gonna start wearing it for myself.

[Susan Simpson]

Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. They're designed for layering and mixing and each piece helps build a timeless wardrobe made to last winter or summer.

[Jacinda Davis]

And quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying the brand markup, just high quality clothing.

[Susan Simpson]

Refresh your wardrobe with quints. Go to quince.com proof for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

[Jacinda Davis]

That's Q-U-I-N-E.com proof to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com proof.

[Susan Simpson]

So we're obviously in the middle of the podcast season now. Things get hectic and sometimes trying to figure out and shop for dinner is the bane of my existence.

[Jacinda Davis]

I think shopping and planning for dinner is the bane of your existence on any day. But yes, especially during the middle of our podcast season, I do not have.

[Susan Simpson]

The emotional bandwidth or labor to be able to plan out healthy meals. Which is why Green Chef is amazing.

[Jacinda Davis]

I agree. If it wasn't for Green Chef, I don't think we'd be eating dinner at night.

[Susan Simpson]

We would not be eating last night. But we had salmon and couscous and it was hands down the best couscous I've ever had in my life.

[Jacinda Davis]

It's funny because I had the same one yesterday and it was really good. It was so good. So if you're like us and finding time to make meals and planning is a nuisance or you just want to eat healthy, try Green Chef.

[Susan Simpson]

With Green Chef, you can trust every bite with over 40 clean, customizable weekly recipes designed to give you peace of mind.

[Jacinda Davis]

And you can reach your wellness goals with options like Mediterranean, high protein, high fiber, plant based and more.

[Susan Simpson]

My wellness goal is not starving to death. So right now go to greenchef.com proofgraza and use code proofgraza to get started. With 50% off Green Chef plus free Graza olive oil set in your second and third boxes. This 50% off offer is only available for a limited time, so don't wait. That's code [e-mail] proof proof graza. We know Jared Conway was lying because we spoke to a former friend of his, Someone who had known him most of his Life. And in 2014, that friend had written an anonymous comment accusing him of Renee's murder. Discovering the friend's identity was tricky, and finding him was even harder. He is not an easy man to track down. But when I finally did locate him and told him I wanted to ask about his old friend Jared Conway, the first thing he asked me was, that kid they convicted for killing that girl in Manteca, Is he still in prison? Yes. I told him he's still there.

[Junior]

It's crazy. All these years, and that's the thing that bothers me. It's like 20 years of this kid's life, man. 24, dude. It's insane. Poor. I mean, God dang, you ain't never gonna get that back.

[Susan Simpson]

Jared's former friend did not remember Jake Silva's name. But over the years, he's thought about him a lot. What happened to Jake has weighed heavily on him. That's why he agreed to meet with us and tell us what he knows. So we are recording now?

[Jacinda Davis]

Yep.

[Junior]

No.

[Susan Simpson]

Did you state your name for the record? Junior, do you want us to use your name?

[Junior]

I don't care one bit. Don't bother me one bit.

[Susan Simpson]

For Junior, there are a lot of reasons it's probably a bad idea to go on the record with what he knows about this case. In doing so, he risks serious consequences to himself. But Junior does not care. He wanted us to use his name, consequences be damned. Telling what he knows about Jared Conway is that important to him. However, we will not be using Junior's real name here. Not to protect him, but to protect the identity of his 14 year old niece, who was Jared Conway's final victim. But Junior and Jared's friendship dates back long before that awful event. They met when they were kids, running wild on the streets of Modesto.

[Junior]

And we just became good friends. Great friends. It was ongoing for, gosh, probably from when we were 13 to 19 years old.

[Susan Simpson]

What was he like back then?

[Junior]

Jared was cool, man.

[Susan Simpson]

At 19. There had been a hiatus in Jared and Jr. S friendship when Jared went to prison, though. Until I talked to him. Junior had not known what Jared had been in there for.

[Junior]

They arrested him for statutory rape. But she was 17, he was 19, she was 19.

[Susan Simpson]

It wasn't statutory.

[Junior]

We thought she was 17. That's the story that we knew.

[Susan Simpson]

After Jared got out of prison in 1997, he moved in with Junior, who by that time was living out in the Bay Area.

[Junior]

Anytime Jared was out or anything, no matter what, he'd always get in touch with me. I've always accepted him as a friend. Up until 2008, I didn't know that he was a goddamn. Excuse me, A goddamn ra.

[Susan Simpson]

2008 was when Jared Conway abducted Junior's 14 year old niece and held her overnight. That's the crime he's still in prison for today. But even before the abduction of his niece, Junior had known there was something a little off about Jared. Or at least he knew anyway, that women seemed uncomfortable around him.

[Junior]

I knew he was always creepy. Girls say he's creepy, but he's never done anything remotely that would make me not be his friend.

[Susan Simpson]

So girls you knew, who knew Jared told you he was creepy.

[Junior]

Sometimes they just say, you know, he gets some dark eyes.

[Susan Simpson]

Shark eyes is how Junior described the look that Jared would get. But he also said Jared wasn't always like this. It was only when he used meth that things would get weird.

[Junior]

His demeanor changes so much because Jared not on drugs. You would never intervene. He's so proper, he's so polite to women. He's real, well, soft spoken. But then he gets some black eyes, and on them, drugs. Shark eyes, dude, it's crazy.

[Susan Simpson]

Around 1999 or 2000, Jared went back to the Central Valley. Not to Modesto, though. He moved in with his mom and siblings in Manteca, near the Indies car wash that his brother now owned. And Conway was using meth again. Junior knows this because he's the one who was giving it to him.

[Junior]

He calls me up, hey, what the fuck did you put in that shit? And this is at the house of Mantega mine. He goes, fuck you. And I go, fuck you. Who you talking to? He goes, I'm talking to this Amish ghost. I go, amish ghost? I go, what the fuck is wrong with you? I said, I told you, Jared, don't shoot up that stuff. I said, he'll snort it.

[Susan Simpson]

It's hard to pinpoint exact dates, but from what we know, this time period is roughly around early summer of 2000. Because not long after that, Junior recalls having a conversation with Conway. Based on the timeline, It's. It's very shortly after Renee's murder.

[Junior]

Oh, yeah, that's. That's the day that he said, I need help, man. He goes, can you help me come fix my mom's car? And I go, yeah. I go with the neighbor.

[Susan Simpson]

Jared and Junior were driving back to Jared's house, where Junior was helping replace some parts in his mom's car.

[Junior]

All right, so we go back to my mom. She got the parts for a car. So we're driving back Mantega. He goes, here, take this road. And it's Austin road. I go, why? He goes, it's shortcut. And I go, shortcut. I go same way. Because Austin road's just a little bit longer of a way to get to you. Send me the manteca. And he goes, that's where that got strangled. And I'm like, what? I go, you mean that little girl? What the are you talking about? Excuse my language, but that's quote unquote. But for him to say, well, that's what that got strangled. What really caught my attention.

[Susan Simpson]

And also calling an 18 year old girl a bitch.

[Junior]

A.

[Susan Simpson]

Did he usually talk about girls that way?

[Junior]

Not really. He said, you know, that one girl, you know, that chick, you know, I mean, he was never rude. He was never mean to women. You know, he was just creepy around him.

[Susan Simpson]

From what Junior remembers, it was only a couple of days later that Jared brought the case up once again. It all started when he and Jared were hanging out at a friend's house in Modesto.

[Junior]

We go to my friend's house, we're all over there, and we're all doing drugs, whatever. We're all talking about things, and they're talking about rewards for somebody seeing a murder. Well, I was talking about another friend. Somebody had killed somebody in front of him.

[Susan Simpson]

The conversation had been about a case of Modesto, nothing to do with Renee. But apparently Jared had missed that part, because while Junior was driving Jared back to Manteca, Jared began quizzing him on it.

[Junior]

So that's when he goes, hey, man, was that reward you guys talking about having anything to do with that Manteca girl? And I look at him, I'm like, what the are you talking about?

[Susan Simpson]

So y' all heading back to.

[Junior]

Heading back? Yeah, from over there, talking to all these people about all this stuff, and just. We're all just randomly in yards, and I'm trying to.

[Susan Simpson]

And they're. They're talking about reward money to something.

[Junior]

Totally different that had nothing to do with them. But then that's when I Went, why would he say that?

[Susan Simpson]

Junior told some of their other friends about Jared's weird and paranoid reaction.

[Junior]

Got really paranoid. And then later on, I was sitting there joking around about it. You know, he probably killed that girl, man. It was a joke.

[Susan Simpson]

When Junior would say that Jared had probably killed that girl in Manteca, it was a joke, but not entirely. So Junior was genuinely weirded out by the way Jared reacted to the Home Depot case.

[Junior]

You know, it's not a bitch. She was somebody's daughter, and she got killed. And then the reward part, like you said, there was a reward. I didn't know that there was a reward. See? So he knew that. He obviously had to know that, because I didn't.

[Susan Simpson]

Junior had concerns, but there was also a reason. He didn't think it made sense that Jared would have done this.

[Junior]

That's what I want to ask you. I don't understand how she ever got in his car. How he lured her to that building. Because he's creepy.

[Susan Simpson]

Junior obviously believes that Conway is capable of doing some terrible things. But he also doesn't think it likely that Conway would have just grabbed a girl off the sidewalk. He thinks Renee must have gone willingly with Conway somewhere. At first, though, he doesn't know how that could have happened. But the fact this crime was apparently committed at a Home Depot makes perfect sense to Junior, because Junior hadn't even lived in Manteca. And he remembers eyeing the new Home Depot building as a place you could go to not be noticed.

[Junior]

You know, it's perfect right there. They were building Home Depot. His brother's car was there. Just dump her right over there. You could drive right inside the place because it was so big. And I remember the construction site. I could see right at it. Drive by it all the time.

[Susan Simpson]

Did someone just drive her right in?

[Junior]

That's what he had. Because it's always, always wide open like that. I ain't gonna lie. You know, it's like I always said, oh, that'd be a good place to go over and do some shit, you know, like, you'd have to worry about cops or anybody pulling up on you. And it's cheaper than a motel. I mean, that's how life was back then. It was nuts.

[Susan Simpson]

Another thing that seemed to make sense to Junior, though, was that Renee may not have been raped at all.

[Junior]

Did they have any other DNA on her either? No, nothing.

[Susan Simpson]

Or what?

[Junior]

Because, like, you know, obviously you can't hold his mud with the escorts.

[Susan Simpson]

Hold his mud?

[Jacinda Davis]

I've never heard that expression.

[Susan Simpson]

And that's why? Junior explained he had not been surprised to find out there was no DNA found in the rape kit.

[Jacinda Davis]

Looking back now, Junior thinks there were signs all along Jared was involved in Renee's death.

[Junior]

I mean, there had been hints, but we didn't. It. It just didn't piece together. Like, at the time. When you're going through this lifestyle, you're doing all things. You're not thinking that he's throwing hints out, but he is.

[Jacinda Davis]

Jared Conway never admitted involvement in the murder or anything like that. But Junior says there were enough comments from Jared over the years that he started to wonder. And this is why Junior is certain that Jared Conway knew about the Renee Ramis case. Because Junior and some of the other people Jared knew would sometimes joke with him about being responsible for the crime.

[Junior]

Up until that point, that it was like little jokes, like, you know, man, he probably killed that girl, by the way.

[Susan Simpson]

So, like, the whole time in the back of your head, it's there. You're not, like. You don't say, my friend Jared is a rapist murderer. Thought has somewhere.

[Junior]

Yes. Because I would make jokes about it in a way, like, you know, like, yeah, if you have to do that to that man.

[Susan Simpson]

So the thoughts. The thoughts in your brain already.

[Junior]

Big time. Yeah, it was there.

[Jacinda Davis]

It wasn't too long after that, though, that Jared Conway left California and moved to Oklahoma for a while. Junior wonders if it was his joking about Jared killing the Manteca girl that made him decide to get out of town.

[Junior]

So he left and he went to Oklahoma. So that was in probably 2001. So he took off there, and then he came back.

[Jacinda Davis]

For the next seven years, this pattern would continue. Conway would move out of the state for a year or two, and then he'd come back again. And each time he was back, he'd call Junior and they'd pick up again where they left off. Jared started in Oklahoma and finally landed in Memphis. But he always came back.

[Susan Simpson]

One time when Jared was back in town, he came to Junior with a strange request.

[Junior]

And he goes, I need you to go to the bank with me. And I go, what? And he goes, do you need to take me to the bank of Manteca? I said, what?

[Susan Simpson]

I remember we were talking before, and you were saying, like, I don't know why he wanted me to go to the bank of Manteca. They go to the west of Mantego. We're in Modesto. We got banks here.

[Junior]

Yeah, weird like that.

[Susan Simpson]

Did he say, why Mantego?

[Junior]

I thought it was because that's where everything happened in Manteca. Because I think in Jared's mind, he knew I knew, but I didn't know.

[Susan Simpson]

On this day, when Jared tried to get Junior to go with him to Manteca. Renee's name was never mentioned. But Jared was acting paranoid. He started talking about delusions he was having. And Junior recalled a night years ago now, back in 2000. When Jared had been living in Manteca. And Jared had called him because he was seeing Amish ghosts. While in the car on the way to the bank. Jared was having the same delusions he'd had back then. That's one of the reasons Junior thought to himself, oh, man, Jared thinks I know he killed that girl in Manteca.

[Junior]

In his mind, he knew I knew. I'm telling you, he knew I knew. And then he's looking down. There's a razor knife right here in the center console. But he kept looking at that razor knife. I think that something was going to go down that day if we went to Manteca.

[Susan Simpson]

Junior had told me the story the first time I called him. And as he was describing Jared's demands to go to the bank of Manteca. And how paranoid Jared was acting. I remember thinking to myself, okay, but why is Junior so sure this incident is about Renee? Renee's name is never mentioned. So why is Junior so sure that's what this is about? Maybe Jared isn't the only one being paranoid in the story. And then as we were talking, I pulled up Google Maps and looked for the bank of the West, Manteca. And saw that it was right there next to the Home Depot.

[Kelly]

And I said, why Manteca? They got one right over here, bro.

[The Source]

You know what I mean?

[Kelly]

Like, why do we gotta go Manteca?

[Susan Simpson]

Doesn't make sense.

[Kelly]

But he kept them shifting on Manteca.

[Susan Simpson]

Wait, so the bank of the west of Manteca?

[Kelly]

Yeah, the bank of the West.

[Susan Simpson]

It's right next to Home Depot.

[Kelly]

Yeah, see, and I didn't know that.

[Susan Simpson]

That's the one right across from Home Depot. He wanted to go there.

[The Source]

See?

[Kelly]

And so? So he said he wanted to take me back to that scene, is what.

[Junior]

He wanted to do.

[Kelly]

That's what I felt. See, I didn't know bank of the west was next.

[Junior]

Don't be both.

[Kelly]

That didn't make more sense to me.

[Susan Simpson]

In fact, he wanted Junior to go right next to the place where Renee's body was found. So maybe Junior is right about what Jared was thinking that day. In the end, though, nothing actually happened on this trip. To the bank. While they were in the car together, Jared's dad happened to call, and that seemed to defuse the whole situation. They ended up going to the bank of Modesto after all, and everything was fine. But Junior feels certain that Jared's paranoia that day was due to him thinking Junior knew he'd killed Renee Ramis. That bank is right next to the Home Depot.

[Junior]

There you go. See? See? Because he wanted to go. He wanted to go reminisce that day. I'm telling you, if his dad wouldn't have called, it probably could have changed for the worse.

[Jacinda Davis]

After that. The possibility that Jarrett had killed Renee Ramis was no longer a joke or a thought in the back of Junior's mind. It was something he was actively concerned about. Junior wasn't going to hang out with Jared anymore after that. And anyway, Jared left town again, maybe back to Oklahoma or somewhere else. Junior didn't see him again until July 4th in 2008.

[Junior]

It was probably about 8 o' clock that night. 4th of July was pretty much over. We let off fireworks.

[Jacinda Davis]

Jared pulled up at Junior's house hoping to talk to his old buddy. Jared was upset and worried because a detective from Memphis had called Jared's dad and was asking questions about him.

[Junior]

He goes, well, they called my dad's house for me. I go, why don't you talk to him? I go, whatever. He goes, make. I had a little trouble in Memphis. And I go, so what, you gonna be on John Walsh or some? He goes, I don't know. Maybe we had the strip club meeting. These guys were doing a little bit of whatever. We get to my place, and then they say, hey, here's 50 bucks. Go to the store and get some liquor. When I came back, they was all gone, but there was, like, blood on my phone. I said, what'd you do? He goes, I clean it up. And he goes, and I bounce and I'm here. I go, did you think the girl was dead or what's the problem if you seen blood on there? What if they punch her in the nose? What if she had a period? So I go, that ain't John wants, unless you know something. What happened to the girl? He goes, I don't know. I go, well, then you ain't got nothing to worry about. But if you do, then maybe we'll see you on there.

[Jacinda Davis]

It hadn't been all that long since that trip to the bank had left Junior feeling certain that Jared killed that girl in Mississippi Manteca. And now Jared was showing up again with a sketchy Story about why homicide detectives in Tennessee were looking for him. Junior was done with Jared.

[Junior]

I said, I don't even want to hear your bullshit, bro. You have to go. He goes, oh, come on. I go, where you staying at? He goes, my mom's new house in Rippon.

[Jacinda Davis]

What Junior didn't know was that this was a lie. Jared was not staying at his mom's new house in Ripon. Jared's mom didn't even have a new house in Ripon. In fact, Jared wasn't staying with his mom at all. At that time, Jared was temporarily staying with Junior's brother in law who was also friends with Jared. Jared returned to the house where he'd been staying and where Junior's 14 year old niece was asleep in her bed. How did you find out that your niece was missing?

[Junior]

I get a call and it's my niece's aunt. She's all jiren, missing. I go, okay, so what do you mean when they're missing? Okay, so what, like missing as in what, like they ran off together? I didn't know what the was going on. Jared was saying, I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean? Stand there? Yeah. And he kidnapped. I go, kidnapping? What do you. Whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean? They go, can you please come over here, please? I said, okay, I'm going over for sure. So I went over there and I started talking to cops.

[Jacinda Davis]

For Junior, this was a big deal. What he agreed to do was go over to his niece's house and try to help in whatever way he could, including by talking to the police in public. Standing in the front yard of the house there, that's not something someone like Junior is supposed to.

[Junior]

By this time, you know, I got street cred. That's crazy. And I didn't give a. I didn't care who knew, you know, but I didn't give a, it's my niece, I don't care what's going on.

[Jacinda Davis]

Junior was going to talk to the police anyway if it helped his niece. But to Junior, it felt like the police were not that concerned. They seemed to think that the missing 14 year old must have run off voluntarily. So the police weren't treating this as the emergency it was.

[Junior]

They're not wanting to do nothing. They don't want to do ambulance, they don't want to do nothing. I'm like these people. I go over to my brothers and I'm calling radio stations, I'm doing whatever. I go, what are you guys going to do, man? Like we're running out of time.

[Susan Simpson]

That's when Junior told the police. You don't understand. Jared Conway is dangerous. I believe he murdered a girl in Manteca and murdered another girl out in Memphis. And if my niece is with Conway right now, her life is in danger too.

[Junior]

This guy's looking at me going like he's looking at my rap sheet. And he's going, yeah. He said, maybe you should bring down Manteca. I said, I'm bringing up with you now. That's when I brought up the Memphis shit too.

[Susan Simpson]

At the same time, my suspicion is that when he told them about. About Renee in Manteca and the girl in Memphis, they did not believe him.

[Junior]

Yeah, with me, of course, because with my whole history, like, look, I mean, my history is. It's got some good spurts in and bad spurts, but I mean, I've never been a bad person, but I've done some bad things, you know?

[Susan Simpson]

Not long after that, Junior was standing there in the front yard when he saw a familiar Honda pull down the street. It was Jared. And he seemed to be alone in the car.

[Junior]

It's daylight now, working this, driving up. He looks at me and I go, what's up, dude? And he goes, what? I go, what the. Because I don't know. And I go, get out of the car. And he went, took off. So he was just come back one last time to gloat, I think. I don't think he knew that anybody knew that he had got her.

[Jacinda Davis]

So was he returning her?

[Junior]

He was returning to the scene. She was in the trunk, she was duct taped. He tied her hands up with her bra and duct tape her mouth and had her in the back of the trunk of the car. And I never asked her. I don't know if he sexually assaulted or not.

[Susan Simpson]

He did not.

[Junior]

Yeah, I didn't think so. But he was, he was gonna. I told the cops, what the fuck. They're all just standing there watching me talk to him. I'm like, here's the suspect. None of me even reacted. I'm like, there goes motherfuckers. Like he's driving off now, what the hell? I go, hey, you know, go chase the guy.

[Susan Simpson]

There was a brief high speed chase before Conway's car crashed. He tried to run and he struggled with the officers, but they tased him and subdued him. And when they opened the trunk of his car, they found Junior's 14 year old niece, injured but alive.

[Jacinda Davis]

Despite the overwhelming evidence against him, Jared Conway was adamant that he was going to take the case to trial. The victim's Family did not want that. Because if that happened, Junior's 14 year old niece would have to testify. And she'd already gone through so much.

[Junior]

The day that we were going to court for my niece. He says he's not gonna do it, he's gonna fight it because he didn't do nothing and blah, blah. I said, okay, whatever. Then that's when the DA came back and the DA's like, hey, you, come here. Guess what? What you talked about to that cop, it paid off. I go, what do you mean? Well, he was a suspect in Memphis, and somebody had found the girl's body in a shallow grave, I guess, or it got washed up or something, I don't know. How was that girl's body found? The one in Memphis?

[Susan Simpson]

Her bones were found.

[Junior]

Yeah, See, that's what it was. So somebody had found it. So they said, guess what? And he's the number one suspect.

[Jacinda Davis]

Junior doesn't know exactly what was going on behind the scenes, but this discovery about Conway being a murder suspect in Tennessee seemed to play some kind of role in his negotiations with the DA's office.

[Junior]

Because I guess what happened in Memphis, they threw at Jared. And that's why Jared didn't go through the trial, because whatever she told him made him take the deal.

[Susan Simpson]

So something about Memphis made Jared agree to the deal?

[Junior]

Yeah. She goes, we got news up there. There was a body found, shallow grave, and he's suspect. And she goes, we got his ass no matter what.

[Susan Simpson]

After hearing from Junior, Jared Conway's confession to the murder in Memphis suddenly seemed much more important because of the possible implications it had for Renee's case. Modesto police were told about two possible murders Jared Conway had committed. Junior told them he thought Conway had killed one girl in Memphis and one in Manteca. And Junior turned out to have been absolutely right about the murder in Memphis. When Conway was asked about it, he confessed. Which raises an important question. I mean, if you've been told that someone committed two murders and when you ask that person about one of them and they straight up confess, you'd probably go ahead and ask him about the second murder too, right? So did that happen here? Did officials in Modesto ask Jared Conway about the murder in Manteeca as well? Did they ask him about Renee? We don't know. Stanislaus county officials have denied a records request, so they're not going to tell us what happened. But if they did ask him about Rene's murder, what did Conway tell them? Is it possible he could have confessed to that too? Well, if he Did I do think it's absolutely possible we'd have no idea about it today. And that officials in San Joaquin county would never have been told. Because Conway did confess to latoya's murder. And as far as we could tell, the police in Memphis were never told about that. Here's something else worth noting, though. Since we don't have access to Jared Conway's actual confession, technically we don't know who Conway confessed to killing in Tennessee. We've been assuming it was Latoya Lusk, because that case matches the details in Conway's letters to us. And some of what Junior recalls Conway telling him back in 2008. Not all of it matches up, though. Some of what Junior remembers, both from Jared Conway himself and from what the prosecutor told him, seems to take describe a different murder altogether.

[Junior]

The DA just went out and said, hey, guess what your girlfriend found. Because he told me it was a girl he was dating that was named Mary or something up there.

[Susan Simpson]

Mary?

[Junior]

Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

He told you when he came to your house, he said it was a girl named Mary?

[Junior]

Well, he said he was dating some girl named Mary there, so I thought the girl that he was telling me the story about the apartment was Mary.

[Susan Simpson]

But as far as we know, Latoya Lusk was not Jared's girlfriend. And she was definitely not named Mary.

[Junior]

You know, I don't know. That's the name he gave me. That's the name I remember. You know, somebody. Mary. Even when maybe Mary was a fake person. Because he told me, maybe think that Mary was the girl I thought when he told his story, there was actually his girlfriend he killed. You know what I mean? He killed him.

[Susan Simpson]

Mary, too.

[Junior]

Yeah, it's possible. I don't know.

[Susan Simpson]

We should ask about Mary, his girlfriend in Tennessee, and see if we can debate for that. What Junior knows is far short of being proof that Jared Conway was involved in Renee's murder. But we owed it to Junior to take what he told us seriously and to do everything in our power to find out if Conway really was responsible for this crime. Because to Junior, this isn't just speculation or rumors or a hunch he has. He feels certain, based on what he knows of Jared Conway, that Jared killed Renee. And Junior is so certain of this that he was willing to risk everything in his life to tell us what he knows. These risks are not theoretical. Remember how Junior went over to his 14 year old niece's house after the abduction and told police there what he knew about Jared Conway? Well, there had been consequences for that. After it became known what he had.

[Kelly]

Done, that I spoke to the detectives, like, that almost cost me my life just for saying that. Even though it's the right thing to do. But those people in there, they don't think it's the right thing to do, you know?

[Susan Simpson]

That's why, even after Jared Conway's conviction for his niece's abduction, Junior did not initially come forward with what he thought he knew about Jared's other crimes.

[Kelly]

Started weighing all me over the years, and finally, man, I mean, I don't know how many years ago, because it was right after the uncle got killed, I said, man, I don't care about what people think of me on the streets.

[Susan Simpson]

It was too late for Tai Lopes, for there to be justice for him, but that kid was still in prison for a murder that Junior believed his former friend had committed.

[Kelly]

Being called a rat in jail. So be it. You know what I mean? This kid don't deserve it. All these years of it's. If I gotta be that for that, whatever, I didn't give a shit. Or more if people knew about it, I didn't care. Call it whatever you want. I call it justice.

[Susan Simpson]

Jacinda and I are obviously not law enforcement, but that's a distinction with little difference. If Junior ever ended up back in prison, talking to us would put him at risk. And by showing up to an interview with us, there was a real chance that prison is exactly where Junior would be going. Because, see, Junior is a wanted man, the kind that has a bounty on his head. And he thought Jacinda and I might be bounty hunters who were posing as podcasters. And our quest to interview him about his old friend Jared Conway was actually just the world's most elaborate sting operation. Did you think we were. Might be a setup?

[Junior]

I didn't know, but I didn't care. I was willing to take a look. I tell you, honestly, I brought money just in case I was gonna go, so I had money to take care of myself while I was gone. I'm not lying. There's $3,000 in my envelope. Like I said, I got an active warrant out there. I had bounty hunters that were chasing me.

[Jacinda Davis]

But you're. You're willing to risk that because why?

[Junior]

Because, you know, it's like, look, I live my life. This kid's been. He's took a. Like, it ain't going to kill me. And I said, if that was a day, if I got here, then I got cuffed. I brought $3,000 in my pocket to put on my books to kill me. I sure Did. I'm not lying.

[Jacinda Davis]

Junior wasn't lying. He showed us the envelope he had carefully prepared with what definitely could have been $3,000 in it. He brought that money with him to the interview so that if we did arrest him, he'd have that money put on his books right away. So at least things would be a little more comfortable in jail for him. Junior was willing to risk his freedom to tell us what he knows because he believed that was the only way there might be a chance for justice in the in this case. Both for the poor girl who was killed in Manteca and that poor kid still in prison today for a crime he didn't commit. That's how convinced you are that Jared is guilty of this.

[Junior]

Oh yeah? Come on, you guys know I'm not here. Bullshit. There's no way that this wasn't the guy. I promise you.

[Jacinda Davis]

Why choose a Sleep number? Smart bed? Can I make my site softer?

[Susan Simpson]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[Jacinda Davis]

Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your Sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. And now during our President's day sale, take 50% off our limited edition bed plus free premium delivery with any bed and base ends Monday only at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com. After our interview, I wrote to Jared Conway once again. This time to tell him that we'd met with his friend Junior and that according to Junior, and contrary to his prior letter to us, he had known all about the Renee Ramis case. And I also wrote, junior thought you had a girlfriend in Memphis named Mary. Tell me about her. Just to see if he'd elaborate on why. Junior remembered Conway saying that whatever happened in Memphis had something to do with a woman named Mary. Then we waited to see what he'd write back.

[Susan Simpson]

Junior decided to come forward with what he knew, despite the great personal risk to himself, because he believes it's the right thing to do. Even if he knows that in his world lots of people aren't going to agree with him on that. In most circumstances, if Junior had information about a murder, he'd never think to involve the authorities. But to paraphrase his explanation for why he's talking now, I'll ride with you all the way. Unless you rape and murder an 18 year old girl, in which case I'm not riding with you anymore. There are a lot of people out there, though, who know something or think they know something and have decided it's just easier to not get involved. Besides, as I was told by someone who'd known many of the people at the sister's house, the only person who wasn't scared of what would happen to him if he talked was Eric Greer. And look where he is now. Despite that, though, some people have decided to talk to us. One of them was someone we hadn't even been looking for. We'd met her by a chance encounter, and she'd asked us to call her by the name Kelly.

[Jamie]

I feel bad for the guy in prison because he's not guilty. But it's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

[Jacinda Davis]

Kelly is right about that. It's not what you know, it's what you can prove. And if you're trying to figure out what actually happened with the sister story, here's the number one thing we've learned. Ignore everything people say they've been told by others and focus on what they actually saw and did themselves. Because if you listen to what people say they were told about the sister story, what you end up with is. Is a hot mess of contradictions that no one has ever wanted to spend time to investigate. But we've realized if you focus just on what the people involved say that they themselves saw or heard or did, their stories start to fall into place. And one thing Kelly told us she herself did was to talk to a man we're calling the source. And based on what Kelly me told, told us the Source had to be someone who had at least a little firsthand knowledge of what had happened to Renee.

[Susan Simpson]

How'd you hear about it the first time?

[Jamie]

Well, actually, a person started telling me the story because of the group that Renee had gotten associated with just for that night. And when he was telling me the story, I was like, I have no idea who this girl is you're talking about, but I heard about the Home Depot thing, right?

[Jacinda Davis]

The source told her that her friends at the sister's house had somehow been involved in the murder and that they had the girl's backpack and shoes. And if Kelly didn't believe him, which she did not, then she should go ask him for herself. So Kelly had gone to ask Jamie, the younger sister, about what the source had said.

[Jamie]

And so I went and asked her about it, and she shut down, Just shut down. And I asked her where a couple things were. And her quote to me was barbecue pit Burr.

[Susan Simpson]

Eventually, and with the help of someone else who was familiar with the sister's house, I was able to figure out who the source Was and tracked him down. I sent him a message asking to talk. He was hesitant at first, but then one day he finally called at around midnight when I was already asleep in bed. When I saw who was calling, though, I was instantly awake. So forgive the recording quality of this call. It's not one I had time to prepare for.

[The Source]

I remember this. I remember this pretty clearly. And like, I often think about this. For you to reach out like that, I was like, wow, this is crazy.

[Susan Simpson]

Much like Junior, the Source has been haunted by this case for a long time. There is a weight that comes with knowing that an innocent 18 year old has spent the last 24 years in prison. And the source told me that he believes Jake is innocent because he thinks the people at the sister's house were actually responsible for what happened to Renee. But Renee didn't really know any of this group.

[The Source]

Not at all. Not at all. And she couldn't have went to more. Wrong place, wrong people. You know, I would have never thought this would be like this. And it is shocking and sickening and all kinds of things for me. Here's the thing. Even though I know it's the right. Right way. Right. And they might not see it that way. In fact, I know they won't. Do you want the story right now?

[Susan Simpson]

I do.

[The Source]

Just something happened one day and that's where I'd start the story and tell you how this.

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah, start from there.

[The Source]

Okay. So I remember when I, Jamie came with a guy named Tim, I don't know his last name. He was a tall, skinny guy. And they said, they're like, what are you guys gonna do? And they said they were gonna go to a party at the Home Depot warehouse. And I said, yeah, well, that's weird. That's strange, right? And so as you come out our front door, it's like there was a field there and you could walk across. So they were going to cut across the field always, you know, to go to Home Depot. And it's kind of weird, but whatever. They said you guys would probably get arrested, but. So I guess it was about 7 in the morning, someone knocks at the door and it was Jamie and the guy Tim. So I opened the door and she looked distraught. She looked like scared, nervous. And I was like, what's wrong, Jamie? And she just like shaking her head no, like she couldn't talking, like tears coming out of her eyes and something wrong with her. And she just kept looking straight and shaking her head. And then she covered her face with her hands. And then that guy Tim, he came In. And I said, hey, what's going on? With what? What happened to Jamie? And he goes, I don't know, man. It was just like kind of drama. Kind of drama night. And I go, yeah, kind of drama. I mean, she looks like she, like, seen something bad, like some bad happened. And he goes, oh, no, it's not like that. It's just things got weird, but I was a little concerned, actually. And he said, she'll be fine. So he talked to her. So I backed off. And eventually they took off, Actually abruptly took off, because I didn't even know they were going to leave. And they were gone. So.

[Susan Simpson]

To the source, it wasn't weird that Tim and Jamie would be hanging out together, but the way they'd been acting when they came back was very weird. And then later on that day, the source noticed something else weird when he went outside to smoke a cigarette.

[The Source]

And I'm like, I see these shoes, right, Just sitting on the shelf. And I'm like, what the. You know, like, what. Where did those come from? I go, those are your ladies. He goes, probably. And I go, well, ask her. So she came down and seen them. She said, no, they're not mine. You guys can't put them there. We're like, no. And I was like, well, that's weird, man, because I was just smoking a cigarette in here before Jamie and Tim came, and those were not there. Right. So what happened was somehow, like, one of them put those shoes in there. They put those shoes in the garage. And why. I do not know. I could not tell you to this day why they had them or why they put them in there.

[Susan Simpson]

Do you remember what kind of shoes they were?

[The Source]

They look like, like, kind of kids maybe looking. It looked like. It seemed like they had, like, a larger white rubber part of the toe.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah.

[The Source]

You know, so I think I thought that was hella weird.

[Jacinda Davis]

When Renee's body was found, she hadn't been wearing any shoes, and the backpack she always carried was nowhere to be found. A week after she was discovered, police put out a press statement requesting information about Renee's missing Jansport backpack and brown and black Vans. The shoes the source says he found at his house clearly were not those vans he remembers white shoes that kind of look like Keds maybe. But Renee had another pair of shoes, and it's possible she had them with her when she went missing. And those shoes were a pair of white Adidas, not Keds, but at least potentially something that could be mistaken. As such, we did reach out to Tim Fisher for a comment he quickly responded that what the source was telling us is a lie. And it's far from clear that these shoes the source says he found had anything to do with Renee. But they do sound very similar to another pair of shoes. In this case, the shoes that Eric Greer says he saw at the sister's house thrown into a closet with a backpack he'd never seen before. And there's good reason to believe that the shoes the source found and Eric later saw are the same pair of shoes.

[The Source]

So the next day it was. I heard that something happened to a girl, the Home Depot warehouse. And I go, hey, dude, Jamie was acting hella weird. Something happened there, okay? Something happened there. Because the way she was acting, I go, I'm gonna find out what the hell is going on here. There's some weird, right? I don't know. Why are these shoes in our garage? And I said, they're going back with her. These are not going to be here. I don't know what the hell is going on, but I don't like it. I had the shoes in a bag, and I went to. To the door, and I knock, but then nobody comes to the door. I knocked harder, and I knocked on the window and all that good stuff. And finally Julie answers the door, and she goes, oh, hey, what are you doing? I just came by to see what's up. And she goes, it's kind of a bad time. And then I hear Liam say, hey, wait, is that. I need to talk to him. He goes, hey, come out in the backyard with me. So I go out to the backyard, and he's. He's different, too. They're all different. Acting real secretive. And he said. He tells me, hey, what do you. What's in that bag? And I go, I want to know. I think Jamie left these or Tim lefties when they came to the house then from the party. Or you go, you guys went to. Or whatever. And he goes, I didn't go to no party. And I go, okay, well, whatever the case, these shoes are left by one of them. So I'm bringing him back here. Some weird. Because that girl that found dead over there. And then these shoes are here is some weird dude. And he goes, it's on the news. I'm like, well, yeah, you didn't know that? And he goes, no, man, I didn't know it was on the news. And he goes, oh, I don't know, man. I wasn't there. And I said, okay, well, whatever, dude. And he goes, hey, man, can you do me a favor? And I Go, what? He goes, I have this backpack that I'm trying to get rid of. I don't want it. It just has a bunch of grill shit in it. I mean, you give it to somebody or sell it or whatever. And I go, liam, sit down. And I go, what's going on, bro?

[Victoria]

Really?

[The Source]

What's really going on? And I go, where the this backpack come from? And he goes, I don't know. Somebody brought it over, they were trying to sell it and left it or whatever. One of the girls. You know how it is, you know, and that kind of stuff does happen.

[Jacinda Davis]

The source told Liam he was absolutely not taking the backpack with him and he was leaving the tennis shoes with Liam too.

[The Source]

And I don't know what you guys did or what, but something happened weird. And I don't like the taste of it, bro. And so in the backpack, you keep it, bro. I don't want any of this because it's not mine. And it's weird. And he's like, why you say it like that? I go, it's weird, man. I don't know what's going on, brother. Something wrong with you. But I'm just gonna go right now because I'm getting like lightweight mad.

[Susan Simpson]

Did the idea. Was the idea in your head then that something had happened, that they'd done something? Oh, yeah, Already.

[The Source]

Already, Already. It was already there. I knew something happened or they seen something at the very least. Right. I never would have thought that it was going to be anybody I knew to do something like this.

[Jacinda Davis]

The source's story would explain why Eric Greer saw a girl's backpack and tennis shoes over at the sister's house. According to the source, Liam already had a girl's backpack for some reason. And the source had left the pair of girls white tennis shoes with him as well. But still, there's no actual evidence it was Renee's backpack and shoes that the source and Eric saw over at the sister's house. Even if they both came to that conclusion, though, it wasn't until a day or so later that the source found out Eric knew anything at all.

[The Source]

Then Eric gives me a call. He says, bro, I got a problem. And I'm like, so what's up? He goes, I don't know, man, I. I need to talk to you. So he comes and talks to me and doesn't really elaborate on anything other than that there's going to be a problem there. You know, there's something going on I can't quite tell you about yet. Right. And I don't know what's going on? It makes no sense.

[Susan Simpson]

Like what kind of problem we're dealing with. What are you talking about?

[The Source]

Yeah. He goes, hey, man, keep an eye out. And I go, for what? He goes, just keep an eye out, okay? It's bad, bro. It's really bad. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'm really like tripping out now.

[Jacinda Davis]

If you're confused right now. Well, the source was just as confused about what was going on, and he was stuck in the middle with all of this weirdness going on around him. And things just kept getting weirder.

[The Source]

So the next day, Eric calls me, says he's on top of the roofs, they won't let him off. And I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, they won't let me off the roof, bro, because I know too much.

[Jacinda Davis]

The source does not know what exactly happened on that rooftop. But whatever it was, the situation seemed to resolve itself.

[The Source]

He goes, oh, dad came home, so I think I'm going to get off. So I guess he gets off unscathed. I see him the next day, he's telling me they're trying to frame him. They're trying to pin that. That thing that happened to throw on him. I know, Eric. And this guy was terrified. And I've never seen him that way, ever. I mean, terrified like a kid. He goes, bro, you gotta find out something. And I go, eric, well, how's that gonna help? How does that help you? He goes, you gotta find out something, you gotta ask questions. And I knew that this was something super bad, and I gotta get in there and try to figure out something.

[Jacinda Davis]

So the source did just that. He went and talked to people, he pieced things together. And he thinks he knows which of his friends were involved.

[The Source]

Like what? What the fuck, you know, you guys whose killers around here, nobody. But apparently you are. It was bad.

[Susan Simpson]

Here's the thing, though. The source doesn't know what happened. All he knows about who actually killed Rene is what he's been told. And this goes back to what we said earlier about ignoring everything people say they were told about what happened and to focus instead on what they actually saw and did themselves. Because the source knows what he was told. But here's what I Back then, this group of people was not being truthful with one another. They were varying degrees of confused and concerned and freaked out and also generally not sober. They were lying to each other about a lot of things. But to be fair, the source had good reasons to think that what he was hearing was credible and that the People he was hearing it from would not have had a reason to lie about the particular things they were saying. In the end, though, what he knew or thought he knew didn't matter.

[The Source]

I thought, oh, yeah, I cracked the case. Good shit, right? Not so much.

[Susan Simpson]

Now, I know I just said to focus on what people saw and did themselves and not in what they were told by others, but I'm going to break that rule now because here's one thing the source was told that we think is worth sharing.

[The Source]

I think the police think this happened at the Home Depot warehouse, right?

[Susan Simpson]

They do.

[The Source]

Okay, yeah. Well, it did not happen in that film. People were asked, they questioned all these guys and they kept. They all had the same story. Tight. Tight as shit.

[Susan Simpson]

What was the story that you think they told?

[The Source]

I think the story that they told was they did go to a party at Home Depot warehouse. There wasn't a party there.

[Susan Simpson]

Didn't they tell you there's gonna be a party there?

[The Source]

They told me there was gonna be a party there, but there was no party there.

[Susan Simpson]

Is it a few days before or like, what's the timeline here?

[The Source]

Okay, so she found the day after that. So.

[Susan Simpson]

So you think she was already dead when the quote, unquote party?

[The Source]

Yeah, she's already. She was already dead before they went to that party that happened two days prior. Because, you know, this is what I'm being told.

[Susan Simpson]

The source has no idea what the purpose of the story about the Home Depot party was or why Jamie and Tim were lying about it that night when they came over to his place. But he believes the story was something they were also telling the police.

[The Source]

Now, they think they killed her at the Home Depot. That's not how it happened. It happened in the garage at the house. It happened at the garage in the house with all those people inside not knowing until afterward.

[Susan Simpson]

Do you think the people in the house knew what happened?

[The Source]

They knew it happened afterward.

[Susan Simpson]

The source believes that most people at the sister's house had nothing to do with Renee's murder. But afterwards, he says, they had to have figured out what actually happened. They had to have known who did it. But I'm not sure he's right about that. My sense is that there are a number of people out there who, based on circumstances they're aware of, believe that someone in that house must have killed Renee. But they don't know which of the people in the house it was. Which could explain why afterwards they were all paranoid and lying to each other because they didn't know who they could trust. The thing Is, though I'm also not convinced that anything directly related to Renee's murder actually happened in that garage in Pistana Avenue. I can't say it didn't. And I get why some people have concluded that's what happened. But I think they could be wrong about that. The source had been shocked that someone he knew could be involved in a murder. But he'd also been shocked by how many people he knew and considered friends were fine with doing nothing about it. And from what he believes, even helped to cover it up.

[The Source]

I mean, why would you just roll with something like that? Like, I wouldn't roll with this shit like this. I don't care. I was ready to say what I had to. What happened was wrong. It was so wrong. And at the time, I didn't give a shit. And I knew I was risking my ass full blast. I knew I was.

[Susan Simpson]

When Tai Lopes and Jake Silva were arrested for Renee's murder, the source did something dangerous. Something that in the eyes of the circles he runs in, he knows looks really bad for him. He did it anyway because he thought it was the right thing to do. He went to the police and told them that they'd arrested the wrong people.

[The Source]

Well, they didn't listen to me.

[Susan Simpson]

That's just to him before the convictions.

[The Source]

Excuse me.

[Susan Simpson]

You talked to Steve Harris before the convictions?

[The Source]

I did. Personally, yeah, I tried, but it didn't matter. In the end, they went with their hunch twice and failed both times.

[Susan Simpson]

What do you mean? Who went on their hunch and failed?

[The Source]

The cops. They got the wrong guys both times. I mean, that's sad.

[Susan Simpson]

The officer that the source went to was Sergeant Steve Harris. The source had known Harris was involved in the investigation in some way because he thought other people had told Sergeant Harris that Eric Greer was somehow involved. So that's who he tried to pass his information onto to try and correct the record when they arrested Jake and Ty. Unfortunately, Sergeant Harris has since passed away, which means he's not around to confirm this. But I need to pause for a moment and stress what an absolutely huge fucking deal this is. What the source is saying here. If what the source is saying is true, that would mean the source gave Manteca police evidence that would point towards Jake and Ty being innocent and they never disclosed it. Law enforcement may have known of a witness who had credible information that Renee's death had nothing to do with Josh Burroughs story and never told Jake or Ty about it. Police and prosecutors aren't allowed to do that. The constitution requires them to hand over Evidence favorable to a defendant's case. When that doesn't happen, that's a violation of the defendant's due process rights. It's a brady violation. If what the source says about telling Sergeant Harris what he knew is true, that's a Brady violation and if proven, would likely have been sufficient to overturn both Jake's and Ty's convictions. Because I can guarantee you that if the defense attorneys had known about the source, Jake's and Ty's trials would have looked very different. But the source says that when he told Mateika police what he knew, they told him he needed to just let it go, to forget everything he knew.

[The Source]

They ignored, because I think they didn't want to look dumb again. That's why Steve told me to back off.

[Jacinda Davis]

Back when this happened, the source talked to a lot of people at the sister's house, including people we were not able to speak to. So we're left with no way to verify what the source says those people told him. But there's one person in this case the source himself never heard from. That's Jamie, the younger sister. The sources always wondered what she'd have to say about it.

[The Source]

There's a couple times I talked to her after all this happened. I hit her up like Jamie. What? Like what happened? And she'd be like, no, I'm not. I'm not doing this. She'd get real irate and shut it down.

[Susan Simpson]

In the stories I've heard, it's consistently Jamie being the most emotional.

[The Source]

Oh, yeah, she was. She was shot out. When she came over that morning. I knew her good, and this was not her.

[Jacinda Davis]

Although the source had important information for us, he himself does not know what actually happened. And going solely off of what people have said they themselves saw and experienced, we feel confident in saying this. A number of people connected to the sister's house believe that she was killed at that house by someone who had been there. And their reasons for believing this are plausible enough based on how they're interpreting the events they experienced. But no one we've spoken to has been able to tell us that they themselves saw Renee's body there, not with their own eyes. This gap in the sister story makes us confident that if we're looking for answers, we have to look beyond the sister's house, because there's a number of ways to interpret the events people remember happening there. Maybe someone simply left a random backpack at the sister's house, Much like the source says someone left a random pair of shoes at his place. Maybe Renee was at the sister's house and left her backpack there, expecting to return for it later. Only she never did. Maybe she did hang out with people connected to the sister's house. And then later on, she ran into someone dangerous. Maybe someone like Jared Conway.

[Susan Simpson]

In Jacinda's last letter to Conway, she had told him that we had talked to Junior and that, according to him, Jared had known about Renee's case. She'd also asked Conway about Mary from Memphis. A week or two after that, I got a text message from Jacinda that had me calling her immediately. Hey, you can't text me. You got an odd message from Conway and not expect me to call.

[Jacinda Davis]

Well, I mean, literally, it just. Are you recording? Yeah, it literally just came in. I'm still trying to process it. All right, this is the message. Hello, Mrs. Davis. My name is Mike. I am currently being housed in the medical unit with Mr. Conway. On March 11, Mr. Conway suffered a seizure, which led to a stroke. He has partial paralysis and loss of memory.

[Susan Simpson]

Keep going. Sorry.

[Jacinda Davis]

He showed me his tablet. He does not know who you are, but he wanted me to write you and thank you. He should be moving to a medical facility soon, so thank you for your message.

[Susan Simpson]

What the. Is this?

[The Source]

What?

[Susan Simpson]

It's. It's from Jared's account, correct?

[Jacinda Davis]

It's from Jared's account. I mean, he says he's using Jared's tablet.

[Susan Simpson]

We did some checking around, and from what we can tell, no, Jared Conway did not have a stroke seizure that gave him amnesia. We feel pretty sure that was just his way of avoiding answering any more of our questions. Still, we were left to wonder what exactly it was that had spooked him. Because there were two things in the last letter that we thought it could be. The first was a question about Mary in Memphis, and the second was about how his friend Junior had been telling us what he knew about Rene Ramis Manteca. So which one was it that had freaked Jared Conway out? Mary or Renee? To try and find out, it was time to go to Memphis and to meet with the cold case unit there.

[Jacinda Davis]

Tune in next Monday for the final episode of this season of Proof Murder at the Warehouse. Proof is produced by Red Marble Media in association with Glassbox Media. Send us your questions and [e-mail] we'll respond during our bonus episodes. Proof sidebar on Thursdays. Kevin Fitzpatrick is our executive producer, our webmaster is Clayton Brawley, and our theme music is by Ramiro Marquez. Audio production for this episode is by Michael Ulatowski, Steve Rental and Jesus Orbaez. Our archivist is Amerie Davis. Our social Media manager is Skylar Park. And thank you to our sponsors who make this podcast possible. Check out the show notes for special sponsor deals and follow us everywhere with the handle proofcrimepod and on our website.

[Susan Simpson]

Proofcrimepod.Com and lastly, a note to our listeners. If you have any information related to this case, we'd love to speak to you. No matter how small a detail it may seem, it just might be more important than you realize. You can reach us by email or leave us a voicemail at 929-267-3172.

[Jacinda Davis]

That's all for this week. Thanks so much for listening.