Murder at the Warehouse | Ep. 17 – The Butterfly

Summary

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Proof: A True Crime Podcast

Murder at the Warehouse | Ep. 17 – The Butterfly (May 6, 2024)

Hosts: Susan Simpson & Jacinda Davis

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Overview of Episode Theme

This emotional and revealing season finale centers on the reinvestigation into the 2000 murder of 18-year-old Renee Ramos, focusing on the implications of long-overlooked evidence and the impact of wrongful convictions. Simpson and Davis give fresh voice to the experience of Renee’s friends and family—especially now that many believe the two men convicted for her murder, Jake Silva and Ty Lopes, were innocent. The episode features forensic analysis, powerful testimony, and new witness accounts, and closes with hope that recently rediscovered evidence could finally exonerate Jake and reveal the truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reflections and Emotional Toll on Families

[01:12 - 06:09]

• The anniversary of Renee’s death is marked by memories, grief, and hope. Her mother, Donna, reflects on coming to believe in Jake and Ty’s innocence after years thinking justice had been served.

  “And now I'm. I'm totally thinking that they are both innocent. ... It just makes me cry. I just cry so much because I feel for Jake.” — Donna Ramos [05:17]

• Families express gratitude to podcast hosts for reopening the case, despite the pain it brings.

Long-Standing Legal Obstacles for Jake Silva

[09:03 - 10:33]

• Jake still lacks legal representation; efforts to find pro bono help have failed due to the case’s complexity.
• Plea put out on the podcast for any attorneys or innocence projects willing to represent Jake.

The Ripple Effects of Wrongful Conviction

[10:33 - 12:04]

• Ty Lopes’s daughter, Mandy, describes connecting with Renee’s family and the importance of continuing to fight for justice, reflecting on the healing (but also the uncertainty) brought by newfound information.

  “I just want to know the truth. I do feel like it’s closer. You guys found out so much more. ... But I am excited, and I can’t help feeling that excited.” — Mandy [11:40]

The Search for Missing Evidence & Police Records

[12:04 - 13:48]

• Suspicion lingers that key video surveillance and evidence may still exist within the Manteca Police Department. Mandy and Donna submit a joint letter urging police to release full case records for independent review.

Expert Forensic Analysis: Medical & Entomological Insights

Dr. Eric Peters (Forensic Pathologist) [14:03 - 20:29]

• Dissects the official autopsy and refutes prosecution’s claim that Renee was pregnant at time of death:

  “Dr. Cooper’s testimony about Renee’s pregnancy was wrong. ... There was evidence she had been pregnant before, but not that she was pregnant when she died.” — Jacinda Davis [15:27]

• Details support for ligature strangulation (using Renee’s own necklaces), possibly with manual strangulation as well.

  “...those little oval areas kind of fit with, like someone using their thumb and forefingers around someone’s neck.” – Dr. Peters [16:27]

• Time of death likely closer to her disappearance, but with uncertainty due to decomposition factors.

Dr. Crystal Hans (Forensic Entomologist) [22:23 - 26:39]

• Explains that fly larvae could have narrowed the time of death, but samples were never analyzed.
• Based on available data, Renee could have died any time from the night of May 29 to as late as June 4.

  “Based on the limited data available... it is possible Renee’s body was placed at the Home Depot as late as Saturday, June 4, or as early as the evening of May 29.” — Jacinda Davis [26:06]

Timeline Implications & Jake Silva’s Alibi

[29:07 - 30:45]

• Jake was surrounded by many people during the week of Renee’s disappearance; hosts are certain he could not have been responsible.
• Raises question: Where was Renee in the days she was missing, if not with any of her friends or family?

New Witness and Key Testimony

Introducing “Wes” [42:07 - 52:29]

• A listener, Wes, comes forward after hearing the podcast, claiming to have seen Renee with another man, Tim Fisher, during the crucial period she was missing.

  “She was over there with Tim. ... That’s how she could be missing and not really missing at all.” — Wes [45:48]

• Wes’s sighting places Renee in an unfamiliar social circle, shedding new light on possible suspects and timelines.
• Tim Fisher later denies this account vehemently:

  “Both of those statements are lies, hun. You are dealing with a lot of crazy idiots and can leave me out of it.” — Tim Fisher, via text [53:00]

Continued Barriers—Uninterviewed Witnesses & Community Silence

[56:46 - 58:23]

• Several key figures, such as “Liam”, were never interviewed by police and remain unreachable.
• Community wariness toward police and the stigma of drug use rendered some witnesses silent for decades.

The Parallel Conway Confession & Memphis Links

[59:34 - 67:42]

• The hosts recount a trip to Memphis, investigating whether Jared Conway, a man who confessed to killing a different woman (Latoya Lusk), could be connected to Renee’s case.

  “As far as they’re concerned, Latoya’s case is closed. They sent it over to the DA’s office and recommended that Jared Conway be indicted. So their job was done.” — Jacinda Davis [63:41]

• The hosts emphasize inadequate inter-agency communication and lingering doubts over unresolved connections.

Rediscovery of Crucial Physical Evidence

[70:53 - 74:03]

• At the courthouse, the team discovers that several key pieces of evidence (unidentified hairs, Renee’s clothing, and—most importantly—the three hemp necklaces likely used in the murder) have remained sealed, untested, and well-preserved for 23 years.
• The excitation and hope surrounding DNA testing:

  “...you wouldn’t have wanted [DNA] tested sooner because the technology wasn’t where it needed to be.” — Susan Simpson [73:46] “Yeah, I can’t wait. I can’t wait to see the DNA pops up.” — Jake Silva [74:42]

Final Pleas and Calls for Action

[75:01 - End]

• Susan and Jacinda urge the San Joaquin DA’s office to review the case proactively and pursue DNA testing even before Jake secures legal representation.

  “They don’t have to wait for Jake to find an attorney. ... They just have to recognize the injustice that was done here and decide to take action.” — Susan Simpson [75:47]

• The hosts vow to continue their investigation and support for Jake, expressing gratitude to families, witnesses, and listeners.

  “The more people who hear this story, the more likely we can help both Jake and Renee get the justice they deserve.” — Jacinda Davis [79:46]

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Notable Quotes & Key Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I always believed that they were guilty... and now I’m totally thinking that they are both innocent.” — Donna Ramos [04:37, 05:17]
• “I do feel like it’s closer. You guys found out so much more.” — Mandy Lopes [11:40]
• “There’s just too much that went wrong here, which you’ve obviously realized by now if you’re listening all the way to episode 17.” — Susan Simpson [09:32]
• “Dr. Cooper’s testimony about Renee’s pregnancy was wrong... there was evidence she had been pregnant before, but not that she was pregnant when she died.” — Jacinda Davis [15:27]
• “Based on the limited data available... it is possible Renee’s body was placed at the Home Depot as late as Saturday, June 4, or as early as the evening of May 29.” — Jacinda Davis [26:06]
• “She was over there with Tim. ... That’s how she could be missing and not really missing at all.” — Wes [45:48]
• “Both of those statements are lies, hun. ... I’ve heard enough of your crap, Ty.” — Tim Fisher [53:00]
• “You don’t have to wait for Jake to find an attorney. ... They just have to recognize the injustice that was done here and decide to take action.” — Susan Simpson [75:47]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [01:12 - 06:09] – Emotional shift for Renee’s mother & families’ reflection
• [09:03 - 10:33] – Jake’s ongoing search for legal help
• [14:03 - 20:29] – Dr. Peters on autopsy and medical forensics
• [22:23 - 26:06] – Dr. Hans on forensic entomology and timelines
• [42:07 - 52:29] – Critical new witness (Wes) describes seeing Renee with Tim Fisher
• [70:53 - 74:03] – Discovery of preserved murder evidence in courthouse
• [75:01 - End] – Powerful plea for justice and closing thoughts

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode balances methodical, detailed investigative work with a compassionate, sensitive exploration of grief and hope. Conversations are unflinching yet empathetic—conveying urgency, frustration, and a longing for justice.

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Conclusion

Episode 17 ties together two seasons’ worth of dogged investigation with new testimony, expert forensics, and a rediscovery of potential DNA evidence—offering genuine hope for exoneration and justice. Susan and Jacinda reaffirm their commitment to seeing the case through, calling on the legal system and the community to step forward.

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For tips or to get involved, contact: [e-mail] | 929-26731
Website and resources: proofcrimepod.com

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Transcript

[Hank]

Hey, Sal.

[Susan Simpson]

Hank. What's going on?

[Hank]

We haven't worked a case in years.

[Susan Simpson]

I just bought my car at Carvana.

[Hank]

And it was so easy.

[Susan Simpson]

Too easy.

[Hank]

Think something's up? You tell me.

[Susan Simpson]

They got thousands of options, found a.

[Hank]

Great car at a great price, and.

[Susan Simpson]

It got delivered the next day.

[Hank]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it.

[Susan Simpson]

Easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right.

[Jacinda Davis]

Case closed. Buy your car today on Carvana.

[Susan Simpson]

Delivery fees may apply. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again.

[Jacinda Davis]

But if you've forgotten to get that.

[Susan Simpson]

Special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it.

[Jacinda Davis]

An early present for next year.

[Susan Simpson]

What do you have to lose? Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

[Jacinda Davis]

50% off regular price for new customers.

[Susan Simpson]

Upfront payment required.

[Jacinda Davis]

$45 for three months, $90 for six.

[Susan Simpson]

Month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees.

[Jacinda Davis]

Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms. This month marks the 24th year since Renee's friends and family last saw her alive.

[Susan Simpson]

There's been times where I'm dreaming that she was just away for a while, and then she came back, and I'm.

[Jacinda Davis]

Like, oh, my gosh, where have you been?

[Susan Simpson]

I have missed you.

[Hank]

And how do you feel when you.

[Susan Simpson]

Wake up from those dreams?

[Jacinda Davis]

I feel good because I feel like she did come back to say hi.

[Susan Simpson]

It's sad because I know it's not, but it feels real, you know?

[Jacinda Davis]

On one of our early trips to Manteca, Renee's friend Amber took us out to visit her grave site.

[Susan Simpson]

I typically don't get sad out here. Out here is peaceful to me. We come out here to think about her. This isn't where she's at.

[Jacinda Davis]

A smiling photo of Renee is etched on her headstone above her birthday. April 17, 1982. A couple weeks ago would have been Renee's 42nd birthday. Her date of death is listed as June 5, 2000. Even though we know that's not the day she died.

[Susan Simpson]

June 5th was just the day they found her, which has always kind of made me a little sad that they don't really even know. Usually it was a group of us girls that come out here. When we first came out here, you would always see a little bluebird.

[Jacinda Davis]

It would just linger while we were.

[Susan Simpson]

Here, this little tiny bird. And then if the bird wasn't there, there would be a butterf it would be like her spirit would come and visit us while we were here.

[Hank]

Did that make it easier or harder?

[Susan Simpson]

It made it easier to know she lingers.

[Jacinda Davis]

For Renee's friends and family, the process of having a podcast reinvestigate this case and reexamine their friend's far too short life and tragic death has not been an easy one. It would have been understandable if Renee's loved ones had not wanted to go through all of that again. But instead, they've welcomed a second chance at finding the truth.

[Susan Simpson]

We were talking last night. We're definitely feeling like she's bringing all of us together right now. I just really felt like that because lately we just all of a sudden, we just find each other without trying. So I just feel like there's something good going on here. I'm Susan Simpson.

[Jacinda Davis]

And I'm Jacinda Davis.

[Susan Simpson]

I'm an attorney and investigator.

[Jacinda Davis]

And I'm a true crime TV producer.

[Susan Simpson]

Proof is a Red Marble Media production in association with Glassbox Media.

[Jacinda Davis]

You can find additional materials about this case on our [e-mail].

[Susan Simpson]

You are listening to the final episode of Proof Season 2, Murder at the Warehouse. This is episode 17, the Butterfly. I always believed that they were guilty, Jake and Ty. I always believed that the police arrested the right people. I know the evidence was not.

[Jacinda Davis]

Wasn't very good as long as Josh.

[Susan Simpson]

Burrows, but I still believe that. That they got them.

[Jacinda Davis]

For over two decades, Donna Ramis believed her daughter's killers had been brought to justice.

[Susan Simpson]

And now I'm. I'm totally thinking that they are both innocent. I just feel like they didn't do it. And I think someone out there did it. Gosh, I just. It just makes me cry. I just cry so much because I feel for Jake. I really feel for Jake. Every time I think of Jake, I'm crying and I feel so bad for Ty that he was murdered in prison and he didn't get a chance. I just feel so sad and I just cry. You know, it's just making. Just talking about it right now to you. I'm crying again. Just like the other day when I talked to you, I was crying my eyes out.

[Jacinda Davis]

The first time we reached out to Donna, she'd been hesitant, but she wanted to know more about what we were doing and what we thought we might find. At that point, though, we couldn't give her an answer because we had no idea ourselves. I know it's so hard to open this up and turn everything upside down. So I do thank you for Being so open with us sometimes not easy.

[Susan Simpson]

I know, but I said, I'm going to talk to them and see what this is all about. I was open.

[Jacinda Davis]

You were open. I think in the back of your mind, you even said you still had some questions. Not so much about Jake's guilt or Ty's guilt, necessarily, but just questions about, well, who else was there if the state's theory was correct, like, you didn't have all the answers. And it turns out that there's way more questions than any of us ever realized. Donna has not just had to deal with the pain of realizing that two innocent men were wrongly imprisoned. She also now knows that her daughter's killer has escaped justice for nearly a quarter of a century. What do you want to say to anyone out there who may have information about what really happened?

[Susan Simpson]

Come forward and just, let's get this solved. Because now Jake is sitting in prison for a crime he didn't commit, and then Ty's loved ones have to. They lost Mandy, lost her dad.

[Jacinda Davis]

Before Susan and I went to Manteca, before we began working on this podcast, Donna had answers to what happened to her daughter, or at least thought she did. Now she's left only with questions, but she has no regrets about that.

[Susan Simpson]

Thank you. Thank you to both of you. And, Kevin, I just want to thank all of you for doing so much work on this. It's just something else. It's amazing.

[Jacinda Davis]

We thank you for being so open and keeping an open mind and going on this journey. And you know that that is huge. You've shown such grace and kindness to us, and we can't thank you enough for that.

[Susan Simpson]

Thank you.

[Jacinda Davis]

Let's. Let's not make this all in vain. Let's see if we can get some answers. You know, Jake still doesn't have a lawyer or representation, but I hope something good can come from all of this.

[Susan Simpson]

We've tried to help connect Jake with an attorney and take his case on. He can't afford to pay for one, obviously, but we were hopeful there might be an organization out there who would consider taking him on pro bono.

[Hank]

Were you able to locate or find someone, an attorney that would be interested?

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah, we're working on it.

[Hank]

Most people that look at this. Get a look at this case and see how tangled up it is and everything, they lose interest in it real quick.

[Susan Simpson]

Jake's not wrong about that, unfortunately. After over a year of trying and failing to find someone interested in taking on Jake's case, I connected with an experienced California attorney to ask for advice and ideas on what to try next. The attorney gave me a cold dose of reality. I don't know of any attorney or innocence project that has any bandwidth at all to do this pro bono. And those who would charge, no one could afford. And those you could afford, you'd never want, because they would be lying if they claimed they could do it at an affordable price. After everything has been turned up in our investigation, I believe Jake has a ton of viable challenges to his conviction, but in some ways, that may be working against him. There's just too much that went wrong here, which you've obviously realized by now, if you're listening all the way to episode 17 of a podcast about it. So we are putting the plea out now. If there are any attorneys who are interested in representing Jake Silva, please get in touch.

[Jacinda Davis]

Getting Jake an attorney would bring us one step closer to righting the wrong that's been done to him. But this case isn't closed for Ty's family either, because even if it can no longer help Ty, finding answers is still important to them, especially for Ty's daughter, Mandy. I talked to her recently about what it's been like to hear her dad's story finally get told. Hey, Mandy.

[Susan Simpson]

Hi.

[Hank]

How are you?

[Jacinda Davis]

I'm good. How are you?

[Susan Simpson]

I'm actually really good lately.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

Do you and Renee's sister have been talking? You and who? Renee's sister.

[Hank]

It's really nice.

[Jacinda Davis]

That's so great.

[Susan Simpson]

Weight off my shoulders.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah. Oh, that makes me, like, tear up. I'm really, really happy to hear that.

[Hank]

I know. I cried when I talked to her. We've been kind of keeping each other.

[Susan Simpson]

A little sane during this thing, giving.

[Hank]

Each other a little bit of comfort. I just want to know the truth. I do feel like it's closer. You guys found out so much more.

[Susan Simpson]

You know, brought so much to life.

[Hank]

I'm getting excited, but I don't want to get too excited. But I am excited, and I can't help feeling that excited.

[Susan Simpson]

And just.

[Jacinda Davis]

Just because. So, you know, just because the podcast is ending like we're coming to a close, we're not going to stop investigating.

[Susan Simpson]

Mandy and the rest of Ty's family want to see Jake's conviction overturned so that he has a chance at freedom. But for both Ty's and Renee's families, getting Jake's case reopened may be the best shot at finally getting justice for Renee and Ty both. Because one of the frustrating things about investigating this case has been the knowledge that the answers we're seeking might have been available all along. Since sitting on a shelf somewhere in the Manteca police department, Possibly in one of those surveillance tapes that were collected from locations around Manteca. We have no idea what those tapes show. We don't even have confirmation from the case file that all those tapes were ever reviewed by someone. I still think they could be important. But since the Manteca police has declined to produce its records, we just don't know. Nor do we know what else might be there in the police files. That's one reason why last week, Renee's mother, Donna, and Ty's daughter Mandy. Submitted a letter to the Manteca police Department. Seeking reconsideration of their refusal to make those records available. Here's Mandy reading from a portion of their letter. We write to you jointly because both of our families have known immeasurable loss. As a result of the horrific crime committed against Renee. And the subsequent convictions of Tai Lopes and Jake Silva. The pain of the families involved in this case have been compounded by the fact that we still do not know the truth of what happened to Renee. The investigative records in this case Are vital information that will lead us closer to knowing the truth of what happened. And we are writing to request that the Manteco police department make available for independent review. All records, recordings and material related to this case.

[Jacinda Davis]

Should those records ever become available. We will be back with more episodes. We're also hoping those files contain records that could help forensic experts figure out what happened in this case.

[Hank]

My name is Dr. Eric Peters. I'm a forensic pathologist. I am the retired deputy chief medical examiner for Pima county.

[Jacinda Davis]

You may remember Dr. Peters from season one. When we interviewed him about the limited records we had about the death of Brian Bolling. We spoke to him again for this case. And this time, at least, we actually had an autopsy report to give him. Unlike in Brian's case, A medical examiner actually had examined Renee's body. Unfortunately, the medical examiner's conclusions had sometimes been questionable.

[Susan Simpson]

So the medical examiner testified that she was eight to 10 weeks pregnant when she died.

[Hank]

Well, that's odd, because she indicated that the microscopic tissue was negative for pregnancy.

[Jacinda Davis]

We showed Dr. Peters the testimony from Dr. Cooper, who said in court that he had suspected Renee was pregnant. And had later confirmed it by microscopic examination.

[Hank]

Okay, that doesn't fit with the autopsy report. You don't have fetus under the microscope, but you do have some reaction of the lining tissue. So it's evidence of a pregnancy, but not evidence of being pregnant because you don't have a fetus.

[Jacinda Davis]

Dr. Peters was able to confirm medically what basic math had already told us. Dr. Cooper's testimony about Renee's pregnancy was wrong. There was evidence she had been pregnant before, but not that she was pregnant when she died. Which means the prosecution's entire theory of this case, that Renee was killed after being lured to a party to celebrate her pregnancy, was based on an error. Dr. Peters did agree, however, with many of Dr. Cooper's other conclusions. For instance, Dr. Peters also concluded that Renee's cause of death was ligature strangulation and that she had very possibly been strangled with the three hemp necklaces she was wearing. But Dr. Peters said there was also evidence of something else going on, too.

[Hank]

I think there's clearly a ligature strangulation. There are some irregular abrasions on her neck that might suggest there may be an element of manual strangulation. And you have across the neck and then little oval, variably sized bruises on the neck. That that's strongly suggests there's a manual component to it, because those little oval areas kind of fit with, like someone using their thumb and forefingers around someone's neck. So there may be a component of manual strangulation, but almost certainly ligature strangulation is the cause of death.

[Jacinda Davis]

In other words, although Renee was ultimately killed through strangulation by ligature, potentially her necklaces, before she was killed, someone also probably had strangled her using their hands.

[Susan Simpson]

Doctor Peters also didn't disagree with Dr. Cooper's initial assessment of when Renee was likely killed. So he says one to four from when she's found.

[Hank]

Okay, well, you know, we discussed this previously when we discussed other cases, but the time of death is a little bit in the eye of the beholder only insofar as there's no real biological clock that you can look and say, you know, here's where the just like a stopped watch would stop and you could see what time it was on the face of the clock. So we have to kind of use our training and experience, but not necessarily scientific methods to indicate how long someone may have been deceased. Typically, when forensic pathologist testifies in court, the most honest answer is to say, when were they reported missing or last seen or spoken to alive, not from a specific scientific basis, but from experience. It's more likely that someone who just goes missing is killed closer to the time when they're reported missing. Usually they're deceased not that long after that.

[Susan Simpson]

It is rare for a missing person's body to be found and for the estimated time of death to not roughly correspond with when that person was last seen alive. It's possible, though, that this is one of those rare cases. The last confirmed sighting with, like, no doubt whatsoever Is from eight days before autopsy. Do you think it's possible she'd been.

[Hank]

Out there for eight days with those temperatures? Not likely.

[Susan Simpson]

Dr. Peters said that he couldn't tell us with scientific certainty that Renee couldn't have died on May 29, the day of her last confirmed sighting. But for Renee to have been there at the Home Depot for seven days before she was found, While not impossible, does seem very improbable. She looks to me, I know nothing. But just eyeballing it, she looks like she's not that decomposed.

[Hank]

I agree with you. She doesn't look markedly decomposed, that's for sure.

[Susan Simpson]

Every crime scene is different, and various factors can affect the rate of decomposition. Some things are likely to slow it down, some things to speed it up. So when she was found, she had been totally covered with the insulation?

[Hank]

Well, insulation is insulation, and it will protect against some of the cold. It would actually increase heat.

[Susan Simpson]

More insulation means more heat retained, and more heat retained means likely faster than normal rates of decomposition, not slower. Though the exact impact that may have had in this case is hard to predict.

[Hank]

However, I am confident that you die. Let's see if she was found the 5th of June, 2000, and I don't think she died on the 5th.

[Susan Simpson]

Doctor Peters thinks the initial estimates of Renee's time of death, which would place her murder over the weekend before she was found, Seems reasonable Based on the forensic evidence we have. It also seems consistent with some of what we found while investigating this case. Like the plumber we spoke to who'd been working at the Home Depot. He was certain that the pile of insulation Rene was found under had been moved sometime that weekend after he left work on Friday and before he returned on Monday morning. There was also the security guard we talked to who was working at the hotel across the street the weekend before Renee was found. Late Friday or early Saturday, he'd heard some kind of disturbance Coming from the direction of the Home Depot. He didn't know exactly what he'd heard, but it bothered him enough that he called police to check it out. There's also the person we spoke to that we've called, the source, who remembers Tim Fisher and Jamie, the younger sister, Acting strangely After returning from a trip out, apparently to the Home Depot. The source said that he thought this had happened sometime about a day and a half before she was found. There's something Else we were told, too, that I couldn't help but think about. It was something Tim Fisher said the first time we talked to him. So part of the problem in this case was that they never decided when the party happened or when she was actually killed. That kid didn't have a night.

[Jacinda Davis]

It was Friday night.

[Susan Simpson]

No, they didn't know what night it is.

[Jacinda Davis]

There's only so much a forensic pathologist can determine about likely time of death. Medical science can give us an estimate, but cannot tell us with certainty when Renee died. There are other forensic techniques, though, that in the right circumstances, can offer more definitive answers. Where medical science can't give answers, sometimes insects can.

[Susan Simpson]

My name is Dr. Crystal Hans. I'm a member of the American Board of Forensic Entomology. So I'm one of 23 board certified forensic entomologists in North America. Did you say one of 23, like two three?

[Hank]

Two, three.

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah. It's a small field.

[Jacinda Davis]

Forensic entomology.

[Susan Simpson]

Just a really simple definition is the.

[Jacinda Davis]

Application of insects in an investigation.

[Susan Simpson]

Most of the cases that I work in are death investigations and using insects as a form of evidence to determine how long the insects have been developing on the remains. And that gives us an estimate of the minimum amount of time that someone.

[Jacinda Davis]

Has been dead and has been colonized by those insects.

[Susan Simpson]

At trial, the medical examiner, Dr. Cooper, testified that at autopsy there had been some fly larva present on Renee's body. Which means this was theoretically the kind of case where a forensic entomologist like Dr. Hans could have been invaluable had she been consulted and might have been able to provide answers about Renee's likely time of death. Unfortunately, no forensic entomologists were consulted. And without any specimens from the crime scene available for examination, all Dr. Hans is able to do is provide a rough estimate of time of death based on assumptions and educated guesses about the probable species involved and their possible size. In this case, we know that the larvae present couldn't have been too large because they're small enough to not be visible in the crime scene photos. So if they had been collected, we could look at them under the microscope to determine what life stage they're in. Someone had been at the scene and collected this and preserved it properly. What's the latest or earliest you could have been there? So based on the temperature data that you provided, I just did some quick calculations to figure out potentially how long these could have been developing on the remains.

[Jacinda Davis]

And depending on the stage of insect.

[Susan Simpson]

She could have been there on June 4th if they were first instars for.

[Jacinda Davis]

Them to have been deposited as eggs.

[Susan Simpson]

Hatched out and started to develop in these temperatures. If the specimens found at the crime scene Were all recently hatched and in their first developmental stage, Called the first instar, then potentially, Renee could have been placed at the home depot the day before she was found there. But if the insects found there were larger and more developed, that would push back the likely time of death by several days. So for second instar, what is the latest her body could have been placed there.

[Jacinda Davis]

It would have been the 31st.

[Susan Simpson]

So the range for the second instars is between the 30th and the 31st. Based on what we know about the insect activity at the crime scene, it is possible that Renee died as early as Wednesday, May 31, or even Tuesday, May 30, just a day or two after she was last seen at labor ready. And actually, that means that Renee could have theoretically been killed as early as the evening of May 29, the evening of the same day she went missing. And so I noted that there was some discrepancy about timelines. And so one of the things about our insects is, even if the body's.

[Jacinda Davis]

Sitting out at night, they're not going to colonize it. They're not going to show up at night.

[Susan Simpson]

They typically are active during the day, and they're laying their eggs during the day.

[Jacinda Davis]

So if there was a question about.

[Susan Simpson]

If she was killed on the 29th.

[Jacinda Davis]

It'S possible that those eggs could have.

[Susan Simpson]

Been laid on the 30th once the insect showed up and had access to the remains.

[Jacinda Davis]

To summarize what Dr. Hans told us, Based on the limited data available and educated guesses about the insect's species involved, it's possible Renee's body was placed at the home depot as late as Saturday, June 4, or as early as the evening of May 29. In short, the possible range of dates for when Renee may have been killed Spans almost the entire time period during which Renee was missing.

[Susan Simpson]

Oh, so we just don't know. Yeah, not without having a sample to be able to properly analyze and figure.

[Jacinda Davis]

Out what life stage and what species as well.

[Susan Simpson]

But there's one quick note at the bottom that says insect larvae collected and repackaged in bpv. Then what? And then where did they go? And what? I don't know. But it does say that they were collected at some point. Were they packaged? Were they kept? Were they stored somewhere? Decent chance they were. From what we can tell, so far, they haven't tossed the files and evidence out. Okay, if I had to guess whatever they collected and repackaged is still sitting there somewhere. Okay, well, the. The hope, I guess, is to find it and that the maggots are still usable.

[Jacinda Davis]

At this point, finding any of the preserved insects from the crime scene is probably a long shot, but Dr. Hans told us if we ever did manage to find them, she'd be willing to give it a look and let us know if any more answers can be found there.

[Susan Simpson]

I'll definitely let you know how the search goes with other bugs, but that would be great.

[Jacinda Davis]

All of this means that without access to more records and evidence than is currently available to us, forensic evidence cannot give us a more definitive answer as to when Renee died. Still, based on what we learned from Dr. Hans and Dr. Peters, it does seem like we can say with some confidence is that it's unlikely Renee died during the day on Monday, May 29. At a minimum, she was likely alive until that evening. And that's actually pretty important. While that doesn't do much to narrow down the time frames involved, it would indicate that the entire day after Renee walked away from labor ready, she was still alive. Whatever happened to her didn't happen then. But if Renee was still alive, then she had to have gone somewhere. So where was she and who was she with?

[Susan Simpson]

She was not with Jake. We're certain of that. Much too many people were hanging out with Jake that week for her to have been missed. If she was with him for any length of time, one of the dozens of people he'd been hanging out with would have noticed. So Renee was not with Jake, but she was also not with her friends or family. And at first, this hadn't made any sense to us. If Renee was alive even for just a few days after leaving labor ready, she had to have been somewhere with someone. Where was she sleeping? Where was she hanging out? There are only two probable options here. Either Renee died shortly after leaving labor ready, or. Or she was still alive, and she was hanging out with people who have never been identified. There were times we thought that the former is more likely, that Renee must have been killed shortly after that day at labor ready. Because how else to explain why no one reported being with her during that time? But as our investigation went on, we began to realize that maybe we had things backwards. Maybe the reason no one called the police to say they'd been with Renee that week wasn't because she hadn't been hanging out with anyone. Maybe it was just because the people she'd been hanging out with were not the kind of people to call things into the police. This summer, when Jacinda and I were investigating out in the field, we basically both lived in Quint's close.

[Jacinda Davis]

It is so true. I think everything I packed came from quints.

[Susan Simpson]

Luckily, I wear color and you don't, so we didn't end up being twinsies, which would have been awkward, but, you know.

[Jacinda Davis]

Oh, you don't want to be twinsies with me, Susan.

[Susan Simpson]

I prefer to have colors other than grayscale.

[Jacinda Davis]

Well, it's because you have quints then, because they have both black stuff for me and colorful stuff for you.

[Susan Simpson]

The problem is it is now cold as heck and we need new clothes to go out in the field or I'm not going.

[Jacinda Davis]

Well, go back to quints. I just ordered some cashmere sweaters that are super warm and super comfortable.

[Susan Simpson]

That's funny, because I'm actually literally about to buy the Mongolian cashmere sweatshirt.

[Jacinda Davis]

You should totally do that. I splurged and I got my husband the Mongolian cashmere pullover hoodie, which is really nice.

[Susan Simpson]

And you're gonna steal it, I'm sure.

[Jacinda Davis]

I was gonna say I'm gonna start wearing it for myself.

[Susan Simpson]

Quint is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. They're designed for layering and mixing, and each piece helps build a timeless wardrobe made to last winter or summer.

[Jacinda Davis]

And Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying the brand markup, just high quality clothing.

[Susan Simpson]

Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com proof for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

[Jacinda Davis]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com proof to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com proof.

[Susan Simpson]

So we're obviously in the middle of the podcast season now. Things get hectic and sometimes trying to figure out and shop for dinner is the bane of my existence.

[Jacinda Davis]

I think shopping and planning for dinner is the bane of your existence on any day. But yes, especially during the middle of.

[Susan Simpson]

Our podcast season, I do not have the emotional bandwidth or labor to be able to plan out healthy meals. Which is why Green Chef is amazing.

[Jacinda Davis]

I agree. If it wasn't for Green Chef, I don't think we'd be eating dinner at night.

[Susan Simpson]

We would not have eaten last night. But we had salmon and couscous and it was hands down the best couscous I've ever had in my life.

[Jacinda Davis]

It's funny because I had the same one yesterday and it was really good. It was so good. So if you're like us and finding time to make meals and planning is a nuisance or you just want to eat health healthy, try Green Chef.

[Susan Simpson]

With Green Chef you can trust every bite with over 40 clean, customizable weekly recipes designed to give you peace of.

[Jacinda Davis]

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[Susan Simpson]

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[Jacinda Davis]

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[Susan Simpson]

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[Jacinda Davis]

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[Susan Simpson]

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[Jacinda Davis]

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[Susan Simpson]

We don't know what Renee was thinking that day when she left labor ready. But from everything we've learned about her from her friends and family, it seems plausible, at least, that the reason Renee failed to meet back up with Jake that day was not because some outside force had stopped her. It's possible she didn't meet up with him again because she decided not to.

[Jacinda Davis]

You described her as strong willed, right?

[Susan Simpson]

A mind of her own?

[Jacinda Davis]

She was a little strong willed, yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

Like if she didn't like something, she had a feisty side to her. Renee's friends and family remember her as a bubbly, carefree Valley girl, but one who wouldn't back down from something after she made her mind up about it. She was a free spirit with a stubborn streak, and if she didn't like the way something was going, she'd move on to the next thing. Like how when she'd had that job at McDonald's, she'd never actually quit. She just stopped going. I wonder why she quit. Probably because it was constricting for what she wanted to do.

[Jacinda Davis]

That would be my guess.

[Susan Simpson]

She probably just got sick of it. It was one of those things that if she didn't like it, then she wouldn't do it. Renee's boyfriend, Josh Matthews, who she dated while still in a relationship with Jake, described Renee in similar terms.

[Hank]

I mean, she was, you know, a little thing. You know, she was pretty dainty, but.

[Susan Simpson]

She was physically tiny. But she wanted something. I get the impression she went for it.

[Hank]

She did. She was determined that way. Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

She wasn't just letting stuff drift her around.

[Hank]

Not at all. At least not in my perception. She wasn't.

[Susan Simpson]

From your memories of Renee, was she, like, cautious about things or she heard a party was happening, Would she just show up? Oh, yeah.

[Hank]

She. She'd go in a heartbeat.

[Susan Simpson]

So to you, it's in character for her to hear the party happening and being like, sure, I'll be there.

[Hank]

Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

Even if she knew only people, A couple people there or something.

[Hank]

Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

So in figuring out what happened to Renee, I don't think we can rule out the possibility that wherever she was, it was somewhere she had decided to be. But if Renee had still been alive that week, wouldn't she have gone to her friends? Wouldn't they have seen her? Well, I'm not sure we can assume that either. In the last weeks and months of her life. Renee's friends describe how she seemed to be peeling away from her old life. Not in a normal growing up kind of way, but in a concerning way. They were worried, and they'd been trying to find a way to bring her back. I know I certainly did. I was that pushy. I was the pushy one. And I feel like maybe I was too pushy because she didn't like anyone telling her what to do, so. But we did try to bring her back. Amber and Renee were close friends, but at that precise moment in time, things between them may have been a little tense, because the last time Amber saw Renee was when Amber had been punching Jake in the face in retaliation for him hitting Renee. Punched him in the eye because she always would say that.

[Jacinda Davis]

She.

[Susan Simpson]

She couldn't break up with him because if she looked him in the eyes, then she just, like. She couldn't leave him. So I punched him in the eye.

[Jacinda Davis]

And she was there, right?

[Susan Simpson]

Yes. I'm sure she was not happy with me.

[Jacinda Davis]

I bet there was a part of her that was. Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

But it wasn't very much longer after that that she disappeared. Many of Renee's friends we spoke to described how complicated and confusing this time was, trying to navigate this whole situation. Her friend Jackie told us how Renee's decision to stay with an abusive partner had impacted their friendship. I feel like that's kind of where My relationship with Renee got really hairy. The last day I saw her was, you know, an English class. And she sat behind me, and she taps me, and she, hey, can I have paper? I don't have any. And I was like, yeah, here. And I didn't even look at her. Just tossed it over my shoulder because I was just like, I'm so mad.

[Jacinda Davis]

Like that you're staying in this.

[Susan Simpson]

I felt like at that moment, that was my disconnect with her.

[Jacinda Davis]

That's why I was like, you're choosing this.

[Susan Simpson]

Do you think she felt that judgment from you? Oh, I was not. I was not discreet with it. Yeah. It wasn't.

[Jacinda Davis]

I wouldn't yell at her.

[Susan Simpson]

I didn't. It was just.

[Jacinda Davis]

I became very cold. But she knew it was coming from a place of concern and love.

[Susan Simpson]

I mean, probably. Yeah. And it's not that there's too close. Oh, yeah. We all had. You know, it was just.

[Jacinda Davis]

I think she knew that everyone was.

[Susan Simpson]

Concerned, you know, from talking to Renee's friends over the past year. I know them well enough by now to know that if Renee had ever called them for help, they would have dropped everything to be there for her. And I'm certain Renee knew that, too. But at that particular moment on Memorial Day in 2000, I could believe that Renee might have hesitated to reach out to them and decided to go somewhere else instead. We don't know what Renee was thinking that day when she left labor ready or where she went after. But based on everything we know now, here's something we think is pretty likely. When she left labor ready, Renee was probably in search of a place where she could go take a nap. In the past 24 hours, it doesn't seem like she'd slept much at all the night before. She, Jake, and Ray had spent most of the night running around, skating and hanging out. That morning, Ray had been so tired that he didn't even try to get a job at labor ready. He needed the cash for court the next day, but he decided instead to go straight to the park to take a nap. Jake stayed there with Renee for a couple more hours, but then he, too, left and headed to the park to take a nap as well. Well, leaving Renee by herself to try and earn money to pay off his court fines. While waiting to see if she got a job, Renee kept falling asleep in her chair until, apparently, she was woken up by a man with a handlebar mustache. One witness who was there that morning told us that he remembered Renee and this man getting into some sort of argument or tense Discussion. He didn't know the context, but Renee had seemed uncomfortable. All of this is why, when Renee left labor ready a little while later, I think she could have been annoyed and frustrated and was probably looking for somewhere to go sleep. Maybe somewhere more comfortable than under a bush at the park, which is where Jake and Ray were. Renee's friend Tim Fisher had spent time in the streets as well. He knew exactly what that would have felt like. Well, because when you're on the streets.

[Hank]

It'S really not that comfortable. It's kind of cool when somebody says, I got a bad. I got a couch. It's like, I kind of want to stretch out. I want to go to sleep, you.

[Susan Simpson]

Know, just to have one warm, good night.

[Hank]

Yeah, it feels good.

[Jacinda Davis]

After leaving labor ready that morning, it's possible Renee decided just to go off and hang out somewhere else for a few days to get some space from Jake and do her own thing for a little while. And actually, something like that is exactly what Renee's friends thought had happened when they first heard Renee was missing. Well, no.

[Susan Simpson]

Like, she's got to be somewhere. She's, you know. Well, and it's like, maybe they've gotten a fight, and she just doesn't want to talk to him, and she doesn't.

[Jacinda Davis]

Want to talk to us about it.

[Susan Simpson]

So she's just cooling down somewhere.

[Jacinda Davis]

Like Dr. Peters said, it's rare for someone to go missing and then to be killed at a later date. But maybe in this case, Renee wasn't ever really missing at all. Or at least not until shortly before she was found.

[Susan Simpson]

Did you hear about her being missing before she was found?

[Hank]

Renee missing?

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah, because she was missing for a week. You remember that?

[Jacinda Davis]

No.

[Susan Simpson]

She was missing for a long time before her body was found.

[Hank]

Well, I knew that because, like, they didn't kill.

[Jacinda Davis]

Kill her, and they found her overnight. Right after episode 10 was released, we got a message from one of our listeners. He'd heard us talking on the podcast about how there'd been these rumors about Tim Fisher, but how they hadn't made any sense to us at the time because we had no reason to think Tim and Renee even knew each other. And the listener wrote in to say there was something he thought we should know.

[Hank]

I knew Renee because she was just a little bit younger than me. I didn't really talk to her too much, but I knew Tim pretty good, and I seen him in my buddy's house, and they were. They were there. Like they were together.

[Jacinda Davis]

What do you mean by that?

[Hank]

Like they were an item.

[Jacinda Davis]

Wesley Is from Antigua. Back then, he didn't know too much about this case, but he's never forgotten it. He's always remembered how not long before Renee died, he saw her at a house with Tim Fisher.

[Hank]

It was right before all this, all that happened with her. You know, it could be that. It could have been the time part when she was missing, like the week before she got killed. They were there. They had, like a. They had, like, a bed made up.

[Jacinda Davis]

And did it seem like she was, you know, just hanging out for a bit, or were they there for.

[Hank]

They were obviously there for the night. The night before that.

[Jacinda Davis]

Can you give me an idea of where the house was?

[Hank]

It was over in Powers Track. It's like with the. It was a circle of people that none of her friends know or nobody that she would hang out or anybody that you talked to would like, be hanging out with at all.

[Jacinda Davis]

Powers tract is a neighborhood on the south side of UC Avenue. It's over behind the home Depot, though, about half mile away and separated from it by what was at the time, a vast and empty dirt field. Wes didn't know the house's address, but from his description of where it was, we thought we recognized it. And our guess turned out to be right. It was a house where, according to database records, Tim Fisher had been residing in2020.

[Susan Simpson]

And you see him and this girl.

[Jacinda Davis]

There was nothing particularly significant about what Wes saw. Renee was just there with Tim, standing by a mattress made up on the floor in the room where Tim was staying.

[Susan Simpson]

Did it seem weird to you at the time, even before all this happened?

[Hank]

It didn't seem that weird, but it just seemed like. I mean, their little mismatch. There she was. He was 28. She was 18.

[Susan Simpson]

But you don't recall her seeming uncomfortable or anything?

[Hank]

No, not at all.

[Jacinda Davis]

Wes thought from context that Renee and Tim had been together as a couple, that they'd had a romantic relationship.

[Hank]

It wasn't just like she's riding in the car with him or something. I mean, they were there together. That was just my assumption from the way they were acting in front of me, like she was standing right next to him.

[Jacinda Davis]

Wes told us he doesn't think Renee was hiding or anything like that, not from what he could remember of the situation. It wasn't a secret that she was there at the house on Powers Tracked.

[Hank]

She was over there with Tim. And the circle of people there were all a lot older than her. Nobody over there really knew her. And so that's why her friends or anybody else that you talked to didn't really know anything about that part of what she was doing.

[Susan Simpson]

That's how she could be missing and not really missing at all.

[Hank]

Yeah, it was just an isolated incident, but I just know that that was her with him there in that capacity. I only remembered or seen her there because of what happened after, you know? Well, I mean, it had to be right around the time that. I mean, it was. It was summertime.

[Jacinda Davis]

Obviously. The identity of the girl that Wes saw is of extreme importance here. There are other girls Tim hung around with after all. Other young blondes, even. Wes told us he knew those other girls, too. And the girl there with Tim that day wasn't any of them. He's sure it was Renee?

[Hank]

No, it was her. Definitely her. Because I knew who she was. I knew who she was and I knew that I didn't know she had a little boy. The other little boyfriend, Jacob, or Jason or whatever his name is.

[Susan Simpson]

Is there any doubt in your mind this girl was Renee Ramos?

[Hank]

No. No doubt. I know who it was.

[Susan Simpson]

Did you know, like, Jake, her boyfriend or anything, or.

[Hank]

I didn't know him at all. Like Ty. Ty? I wasn't a big fan of Ty.

[Susan Simpson]

Oh, you knew Ty?

[Hank]

Yeah.

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah, I knew Tyler at the time.

[Jacinda Davis]

When this all happened. It never occurred to Wes that what he'd seen could have any significance.

[Hank]

I mean, I didn't really think too much of it. Everybody said it was a boyfriend and Ty.

[Susan Simpson]

So did you think about Tim?

[Hank]

You know, I really. I didn't at the time. There's a lot of other rumors going around.

[Jacinda Davis]

At that time, Wes hadn't known Renee was ever missing, and he hadn't known Tim Fisher had ever been called in as a possible suspect. So he hadn't known what he'd seen could matter. Not until he listened to the podcast, anyway.

[Susan Simpson]

Wes told us that others at the house would have seen Renee and Tim together, but he doesn't know if any of them would have realized either that what they saw might be significant. Even if they had realized it, though, he said it doesn't surprise him that no one came forward to tell the police about it.

[Hank]

Yeah, you gotta take into account that all these people were on drugs. So cops and talking is like they're not trying to do it.

[Susan Simpson]

The first time we talked to Wes, he told us it hadn't been long after he saw Renee and Tim together, that he'd heard about Renee's body being found. But he wasn't sure exactly how close in time these two events had been.

[Hank]

It could have been A week it could have been, you know, but I feel like it's relevant, you know what I mean? Because that changes everything. The dynamic between those two.

[Susan Simpson]

People can be really bad about remembering dates. And there were a lot of people in this case who told police they'd seen Renee sometime during that week after labor ready and turned out to have been wrong about that. They had actually seen her the week before and mistakenly thought it happened later. So Wes could definitely be wrong about when this happened. It's possible the time he saw Renee and Tim together was sometime before she apparently went missing, sometime before that trip to labor ready. But regardless of the exact timing, Wes memory here is still significant. If he's right, that would show that Tim and Renee had a relationship beyond what Tim has admitted. And also there aren't a ton of possibilities for when this could have occurred. It had to have been during some time when Jake and Renee were separated. But Renee and Jake were usually together. Except for the week after that trip to labor ready. They weren't together then.

[Jacinda Davis]

After my first phone call with Wes, he'd gone and called the friends he'd been hanging out with back then to find out what they remembered. The next day, Wes called back and said he'd found out something else he thought might be important.

[Hank]

Yeah, I talked to my buddy in one of the. He did clarify for me was that the next day after I seen her is when Rick Bolling came over to the house and said that girl that was over here was the one that they found at Home Depot. He kind of put me up on a couple things about that. Like that I didn't remember. Just like that Tim was living there and Rick had come over. He'd give me the timeline, you know what I mean?

[Jacinda Davis]

Wes says that based on what others told him they remember. It was very shortly after Wes says he saw Renee at that house on Powers Tract, that Rick Bolling came by the same house and told the people there that he'd found a body at the Home Depot.

[Hank]

This is second hand. He went over there and told the people that were there that what's his time?

[Susan Simpson]

So his timeline is like, could have.

[Hank]

Been a couple days that he came over, but it seemed like the next day.

[Susan Simpson]

There's someone else we spoke to too who remembered Rick Bolling telling him about finding Renee's body. And that's Tim Fisher, though Tim didn't tell us where this had happened. And at the time, we didn't know to ask.

[Hank]

I can come up, dude, I found Renee.

[Susan Simpson]

I was like, what?

[Hank]

Yeah, I'M the one that found her. I was like, oh fuck, where at?

[Susan Simpson]

He said, under a pile of debris, dude. I was like, oh my God.

[Jacinda Davis]

He was in shock.

[Hank]

He had this look on his face.

[Susan Simpson]

If Wes is correct about what he saw, then he's not the only one who would have seen it from what he describes. Tim and Renee weren't in hiding. They weren't trying to keep anything a secret. There were others who would have seen them at that house. Someone I talked to told me that they were surprised that you came forward.

[Hank]

Well, yeah, yeah, they thought you were.

[Susan Simpson]

One of the last people who would come forward.

[Hank]

Yeah, that's not my mountain. Still completely about it myself. I mean, I'm not. I'm not really looking forward to, but I don't really. It doesn't matter to me.

[Susan Simpson]

So. So why did you come forward?

[Hank]

Because, man, I was starting. I was listening to the. Started listening to the podcast and just messed up, you know. And yeah, the reason I called in is because I didn't. I wasn't sure if you guys were making that connection there. Like she used to hang out with him.

[Susan Simpson]

Not like that.

[Hank]

Yeah, well, he was like that.

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah.

[Hank]

As far as everything goes, like what happened, I can't ever say for a fact, but I've seen her with him and that's. I was just trying to connect that thought for you guys.

[Jacinda Davis]

How does it make you feel that other people won't come forward to. To share what they know?

[Hank]

It's whatever, man. It's on them. I mean, they gotta live with themselves if they know more. I mean, sure, there's plenty of people know more than I do, so I don't really know nothing, but I'm going try to tell you what I do know.

[Jacinda Davis]

A few months back, we'd reached out to Tim Fisher, but he told us he wasn't interested in talking to us anymore. But recently we had to reach out to him once again. After talking to Wes and hearing what the source had to say, we needed to ask Tim about it, find out what he had to say. It could be that Tim has a good explanation for what both these witnesses told us. I reached out to Tim Fisher for a statement about the new information we've learned. Yeah, and he replied to me. He said, both of those statements are lies, hun. You are dealing with a lot of crazy idiots and can leave me out of it. I've heard enough of your crap, Ty, which I think means thank you. As of now, Wes is the only one who is willing and able to say that he Saw Renee Ramis at the house in powers track with Tim Fisher. So it is Wes's word against Tim's. Wes is willing to say what he remembers publicly under his own name, and if ever requested to do so under oath under penalty of perjury.

[Susan Simpson]

Obviously, it's a big deal if Tim was there with Renee in that time period.

[Hank]

If I was him, I wouldn't want to admit that either. You know what I mean?

[Jacinda Davis]

Wes is right. Even if he had nothing to do with Renee's murder, you can see why Tim might not want to admit being with her. The way west remembers it doesn't look great for him.

[Susan Simpson]

At the same time, though, what west says he saw doesn't tell us anything about how Renee died. It just tells us more about where Renee was during the week after her friends and family last saw her. It's also worth at least mentioning here that when it comes to the unverified manteeka rumor mill, most people who think they know how Renee died don't actually think Tim did it. Even people like the source who remembers Tim acting real sketchy in connection with the home depot doesn't think he was responsible for this crime. And he. How did he get involved in this? Tim Fisher?

[Hank]

Well, he so much. I don't know, so much involved other than showing up at the home depot with Jamie. He moved away sometime a little bit after or something.

[Susan Simpson]

He moved away right away.

[Hank]

He did, huh?

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah.

[Hank]

Yeah, I think he knew what was up. I could tell he was nervous. Well, he was out. He was there. He knew something, right? At least at the home depot end of things.

[Susan Simpson]

But you never heard that he was involved in the actual murder?

[Hank]

No, not at all.

[Susan Simpson]

According to Tim, he never left town.

[Hank]

Oh, no, he left town. I remember clearly. He left town. I don't know where to, and I don't know for how long because it looked bad when he did. I remember it clearly.

[Susan Simpson]

For the most part, the rumors about that house in Pastana avenue aren't actually about Tim. Even Eric Greer, in that video statement he made, never says that he personally thinks Tim was responsible. He just says that people thought Tim was the one who did it. As for who these people supposedly are, Eric only ever named one of them, and that's Liam. His girlfriend was Julie, the older sister. And he lived over there, too, at that houseana Avenue. When I talked to the source, Liam was someone he'd been curious about. He wanted to know what Liam had told the police about all this back then.

[Hank]

Yeah. How about Liam? Did they ever give him any?

[Susan Simpson]

They Never talked to him. Never talked to him.

[Hank]

They never talked to him.

[Susan Simpson]

They never talked to Liam.

[Hank]

They left him out of it.

[Susan Simpson]

In the reports, the only time he shows up is there's a quote. So Eric goes, the police, he's like, Liam says that Tim Fiser did it. And that's the only time Liam's name really gets brought into the file.

[Hank]

Not even the case. Not in case.

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah, but they never talked to Liam.

[Hank]

See, they protect him like that.

[Susan Simpson]

I don't know what it was. I don't know.

[Hank]

I don't know. I don't know why the police never.

[Susan Simpson]

Got a statement from Liam. And unfortunately, we never talked to him either.

[Hank]

Hey, what's up?

[Susan Simpson]

Hey.

[Jacinda Davis]

We just knocked on Liam's door, and he wasn't home, but his wife and his mom were home. But essentially, his wife, she wasn't very friendly towards us. She said he left everything behind from that part of his life and not to get our hopes up, that he wouldn't talk, that she doesn't think he'd ever talk to us, that that's the past and he wants nothing to do with it.

[Hank]

Well, that's an awfully strong statement for someone.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah. And she's like, well, why? Why would he talk to you? And I said, because he might know something that could be helpful. And, you know, even though it was a long time ago and he's changed his life, maybe he'd still want help if he could. And she shut that down like she didn't want to hear anything at all.

[Susan Simpson]

When Liam didn't call, we sent him a letter explaining who we were and why we wanted to talk to him, but we never did hear back. You want to send me to Michael.

[Jacinda Davis]

Thompson, who bucked the whole ab, dropped.

[Susan Simpson]

Out, and testified against them, and you.

[Jacinda Davis]

Think I'm going to go there and.

[Susan Simpson]

Convince him to recant? He has created this illusion of who he is. I was just stunned that I would have a conversation like this with an ex gang leader. I was in the hearing, and I thought, oh, my goodness, these girls are fallen for his bullshit. I think they're gonna let this guy out.

[Jacinda Davis]

The world would be a much better.

[Susan Simpson]

Place with this man out. It's like a light just kind of pours out of him. And I was determined to help that.

[Jacinda Davis]

Light get out into the world.

[Hank]

Blood Memory, a new podcast series from Love and Radio. Search for Blood Memory.

[Susan Simpson]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jacinda Davis]

After Jared Conway's friend Mike told us he no longer remembered who we are due to an untimely stroke seizure, he'd suffered. We figured our odds of getting any more information out of him were pretty low. But there was someone else out there we hoped might have information on Conway. The Memphis police. After all, Conway had confessed to killing a woman there. A woman we'd been able to identify as 22 year old Latoya Lusk, whose last known location before she went missing was Jared Conway's apartment. I'd called the Memphis Cold case unit to tell them we had some information for them about one of their unsolved cases. A sergeant called me back and suggested we come down to Memphis to talk to them in person. Okay, we are recording, and we are getting ready to head over to the Memphis Police Department to talk to the homicide team.

[Susan Simpson]

Yeah, it's funny. It's the only time I think the cops have wanted to talk to me.

[Jacinda Davis]

It's unusual for you. Not us. We talk to cops all the time. We'd brought our records on Conway to share with the cold case team. In particular, they'd wanted to know if they could have the letter Conway had written to us confessing to helping dispose of a woman's body after she'd been murdered in Conway's apartment. We were also hoping that the Memphis detectives might be able to tell us more about a previous confession Jared Conway made while in jail in Modesto in 2008. Because we knew Conway had confessed that he had murdered the woman killed in his apartment. But we also believed it was likely he'd been asked about Renee's murder as well. We were hoping Memphis might know what Conway had said about both. But also, we just wanted to figure out how Jared Conway had confessed to murder and gotten away with it. Why was he never charged for killing Latoya Lusk?

[Susan Simpson]

Hopefully, we're going to get an answer to that today. Find out what's really going on. Yeah, there's a lack of communication between Tennessee and California. Or someone didn't see the big picture.

[Jacinda Davis]

Or they could have tried to indict him with only knowing that she was last seen going into his apartment and there was no evidence in his apartment.

[Susan Simpson]

Or maybe there's something we don't know about what happened in California that made this case not prosecutable in Tennessee. Maybe something California told them made Tennessee think they couldn't actually charge him for latoya's murder. The interesting thing is going in to speak to the police. They will learn a lot of information that you two have uncovered that they don't know. And it's quite possible that we'll leave with a lot of Information about Jared Conway. Well, I'm hoping they will. I'm hoping they'll tell us things. I mean, hopefully this is a two way conversation.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah, I mean, I have no reason to think it won't be. When I spoke to one of the detectives, he was very interested in what we had found out and asked if we could come down and talk to him and share our information and that they had information in return to share with us. So I'm very hopeful that, yeah, we'll leave with a lot more information that than we even have now. We were far too optimistic. There was no two way conversation. As we had hoped. The detectives accepted the information we had about Jared Conway, but there wasn't much they could tell us. Okay, so we are back.

[Susan Simpson]

We met with the Memphis Cold Case Unit. They had five detectives there talk to us. They were happy to hear from us and hear what information we had to share. Maybe not so much on sharing information with us, but we did learn a little bit more. They confirmed that Jared Conway was their suspect in the case. He was the one who was referred to the prosecutor's office. And for reasons we still don't know, the DA's office here in Memphis declined to indict him for the murder of Latoya Lusk.

[Jacinda Davis]

One thing the detectives in Memphis did tell us was that as far as they're concerned, Latoya's case is closed. They sent it over to the DA's office and recommended that Jared Conway be indicted. So their job was done. But the Shelby County District Attorney's office had declined to indict him for reasons unknown.

[Susan Simpson]

The sergeant we met with today, one of them at the Cold Case Unit said, you guys need to go talk to the prosecutor's office. Here's a number. See if you can get a meeting scheduled for before you leave Memphis.

[Jacinda Davis]

So we're on standby for that meeting and hoping that happens. And hopefully he can tell us a little bit more about what happened and why Jared wasn't indicted. The Memphis Police Department was apparently never told that while in Modesto, California, Jared Conway had confessed to murdering a woman in his Memphis apartment. The detectives we spoke to seemed completely unaware of it, but that doesn't mean officials in California never told Tennessee about Conway's confession. It's possible the prosecutors in Modesto did contact Memphis, but they spoke with the prosecutors there, not the police.

[Susan Simpson]

So whatever information was exchanged between Modesto and Memphis, it was with the prosecutors. And the police department was not apparently involved in that. We also mentioned to them another case we've been looking at. That's Mary Nelson, who was murdered in 2006 in circumstances that sounded eerily like what we know of Renee's case. And, you know, I wouldn't normally say that's a connection, exactly, except for the fact that Junior has always remembered that when Jared would tell him about whatever trouble he has had in Memphis, the name Mary came to him like he always thought it was. Mary was the name of the girl. That was something happened there. Now, he also remembers Jared telling him a story about the apartment, which very much seems to be Latoya.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah, it could be that he, for some reason thought latoya's name was Mary. We don't know. Or it could be there's a second person, and that's what we're trying to figure out. So stand by for prosecutor meeting. We did meet with the DA investigator, but he either knew nothing about the cases we were looking at or wasn't willing to tell us anything he did know. So, as of now, we still don't know any details about Jared Conway's confession in Modesto, California, or whether he was asked about Renee and if he was, what he said. Nor do we know if Conway had any role in the 2006 murder of Mary Nelson, a 19 year old girl who was strangled and left in an abandoned building in the same southeast Memphis neighborhood where Jared Conway lived. But if Conway was involved there, that one won't be hard for investigators to figure out. DNA of Mary's probable killer was found on the Shore shirt that had been pushed up around her neck. And sometime after 2008, that profile had a hit on CODIS, the federal DNA database. Though we don't know who it matched to, as Memphis declined to prosecute whoever it was. We also don't know if officials in Memphis plan on pursuing any further investigation or prosecution on Conway for his role in Latoya Lusk's murder in 2007. But in the event Conway ever does get paroled in California, I hope Memphis will strongly consider reopening the case. We asked the Memphis Police Department for an update on latoya's case and Mary's case. They said they were working on a statement for us. We have not yet received it.

[Susan Simpson]

We're still investigating Jared Conway for a few reasons. There are some cases in Tennessee we'd like to know more about, but we're also still interested in what he might have known about Renee's case. And here's one reason for that. It has to do with what Junior said about the time Jared told Him. That's where the bitch was strangled. Because Jared hadn't made this comment about the Home Depot. He'd been talking about some other location. He and Junior were coming back from Modesto, heading to Jared's mom's house in Manteca. Junior was driving, and on the way, Jared had asked Junior to pull off the highway and take a shortcut up Austin Road. Though the route he told Junior to take was actually longer.

[Hank]

We're coming from Modesto, and then Austin Road is in between Manteca. And he just took me down to shortcut. And then all we did was just come back up.

[Susan Simpson]

And on Yosemite, the Austin Road car is confusing. Can you actually see the Home Depot from Austin Road? No.

[Hank]

No, he just told me to take that exit.

[Susan Simpson]

It was just a.

[Hank]

A longer way to go. And then you can take Austin Road and it'll run right into Yosemite.

[Susan Simpson]

The route Jared Conway told his friend to take that day put them up on Yosemite Avenue to the east of the highway. And it took them past the racquetball club, the one the Sister sisters live behind. In that house on Pastana Avenue. Maybe that's a coincidence and it's just by random chance. The time Conway told his friend that's where the bitch was strangled. It was after asking his friend to take a detour that took them past Pistana Avenue. But maybe that's not a coincidence at all. Maybe Jared Conway knows more about Renee than he's admitting. Maybe he has a connection to the sisters house that we don't know about yet. Right now, we just don't know. There are a lot of things in this case we don't know. That's okay, though. We may not have all the answers yet, but I think we will soon. All right. We are at the Stockton courthouse. I feel like it is 7:30. Why did you make us get up so early?

[Jacinda Davis]

And usually I'm the one who's rolling out of bed at the last minute. Should I circle and see if I can find parking?

[Susan Simpson]

We'll just walk. We got time.

[Jacinda Davis]

I brought an extra laptop, hoping it helps speed up things because this, the VHS and stuff, is real time. We were there at the courthouse to make copies of the VHS and cassette tape statements from Josh Bros. Interviews. Those tapes had been entered as exhibits at trial. We set up in a quiet conference room and began going through the evidence cart that one of the court clerks wheeled in. There were photographs and diagrams, and then tucked into some paperwork, there was a little manila envelope that was taped shut the clerk picked it up, trying to puzzle out what it could be, and said, sorry, I don't think this one is going to open. Oh, you know what? You might not be able to tear.

[Susan Simpson]

Oh, don't touch it. Don't touch it.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah, they have the hair still here.

[Susan Simpson]

They didn't test it then in 2016, it's still sitting here in the file. It was not sent to the lab.

[Jacinda Davis]

One hair from the area of insulation number three.

[Susan Simpson]

That's the one with the root still on it. Heck, yeah.

[Jacinda Davis]

I do not want to touch this. The bag containing the unidentified pubic hair found near Renee's body was sealed tight. We definitely left it that way. And just behind it was a second small manila envelope. This one contained hair number four, A, a possible body hair found near Renee's body and once had a tiny piece of skin still attached to it. Jake's attorney had requested these hairs be tested back in 2016, but at the time, they couldn't be found. We now knew why. Turns out they'd been here at the courthouse all along. They'd never really been lost at all. The chain of custody forms just hadn't been correctly updated. But it wasn't just those hairs that were at the courthouse. We found Renee's bra and underwear next, still sealed in plastic. And there was more behind it.

[Susan Simpson]

Oh, it's a shirt.

[Jacinda Davis]

Looks like blood.

[Susan Simpson]

It does. It's a little bit of blood. Get good pictures of all of us. I did.

[Jacinda Davis]

Renee's red Limp Bizkit shirt and lace up front. Jeans still look pretty much exactly the same as they had in 2000. The items of clothing were all carefully preserved, sealed in plastic, and packed into an evidence cart. Oh, there's one more. Oh, it's Susan. What?

[Susan Simpson]

What?

[Jacinda Davis]

Inside a ziploc bag were three hemp necklaces. Two had shiny metal beads woven into the hemp, while the third was more colorful. It had a large blue bead at the center with a brightly colored butterfly drawn on it.

[Susan Simpson]

These weren't just Renee's necklaces, though. These were the probable murder weapons. And they were our best hope of finding who killed Renee. They were thought to be lost, but now here they were, safe and secure, zipped inside a little plastic sandwich bag. And we had every reason to hope that the killer skin cells were sealed inside there with them.

[Hank]

I don't know why those necklaces are. Any other items from her were never tested for DNA.

[Susan Simpson]

I don't remember. Here's the good news. They're still there. They're sealed up. And honestly, you wouldn't have wanted to be tested sooner because the technology wasn't where it needed to be.

[Hank]

Exactly. I was just thinking it. I was thinking it.

[Susan Simpson]

So, I mean, honestly, it could be for the best that they have not been tested before now. Jake was excited, but also somewhat confused. If Renee's clothing and necklaces have just been sitting in the courthouse all this time, how come his attorney hadn't been able to test them back in 2016?

[Hank]

Does it say in the paperwork, or did he say that he tried to find it? Yep.

[Susan Simpson]

I think they couldn't find them and didn't realize they were at the courthouse all along.

[Hank]

What was it doing at the courthouse?

[Susan Simpson]

They were. They were exhibits. They were trial exhibits.

[Hank]

23 years later, they're still sitting there. Yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to see the DNA pops up.

[Susan Simpson]

We will know the truth of what happened to Renee. I believe that one day anyway. It'll take some time, but it can be done. Jake needs an attorney first, and once he finds one, he can seek DNA testing from the court. We're hopeful prosecutors won't oppose that. After all, they didn't oppose testing back in 2016 when it turned out the evidence was missing. So now that it's been found, I hope they haven't changed their minds. There are never guarantees with DNA testing, especially in a case that's 24 years old. But from all appearances, the evidence here has been preserved. Well, I am optimistic that the answers we're seeking are there and will be found. But before we end, I would like to put out a personal plea to the san Joaquin County DA's office. Please take a look at this case for yourselves, review the evidence, talk to witnesses, and fix what happened here. The DA is fully empowered to right this wrong if they so choose. They have the power and obligation to affirmatively see the justice be done. They don't have to wait for Jake to find an attorney. They don't have to wait for DNA testing. They just have to recognize the injustice that was done here and decide to take action. Jake has survived so far against all odds. But the odds run out for everyone eventually. And the longer this takes, the more likely it is that, as already happened for Tai Lopes, this injustice will become one that can never be remedied. So that's it for now. This is the last regularly scheduled weekly episode of season two. But it will not be the last episode of season two. Our investigation is not ending here. We don't know what the path ahead for Jake looks like. We don't know how long it might take, but Jacinda, Kevin and I will collectively keep banging our heads against the wall until something finally gives and the recently rediscovered evidence can be tested for DNA. In the meantime, we'll still be here working on the case, still trying to find people, still talking to anyone who wants to talk to us. And when Jake finally does win his freedom, there's something I'll be getting that I never planned on doing before.

[Jacinda Davis]

You know, Susan said she's going to let you do her first tattoo.

[Hank]

Yeah, she don't even know if she wants to.

[Jacinda Davis]

I think she said a bat. Remember the story you told her about, like, saving the bat?

[Hank]

I've saved a few of them over the years.

[Jacinda Davis]

Yeah, I was thinking I should get a bat, too. A bat or a tarantula I can.

[Hank]

Just draw that with. I don't need a pattern or nothing because everything I use in here is all homemade, you know, so you're gonna.

[Jacinda Davis]

Have to practice on a tattoo gun. Proof is produced by Red Marble Media in association with Glassbox Media. Kevin Fitzpatrick is our executive producer and our theme music is by Ramiro Marquez. A special shout out to Michael Ulitowski, who edited every single episode this season. Additional audio production for this episode was provided by Steve Rentas. Our archivist is Amory Davis and our webmaster is Clayton Brawley. We can't thank Skylar park enough for managing our social media and supporting what we do at all hours of of the day and night, no questions asked. Thank you to our sponsors who helped make this podcast possible. Follow us everywhere with the handle proofcrimepod and on our website, proofcrimepod.com Send us your questions and [e-mail]. And we'd like to take a little time to thank some people who helped make this season of Proof happen. First, to all of Renee's friends and family who went on this journey with us and trusted us to look into this case no matter where it led us. Thank you. And to Jake Silva, who for 24 years has been holding on to hope that someday someone would take a look at this case. Thanks, Jake, for trusting, trusting us to do that. To Tai Lopes's family, especially Mandy, who has always wanted to know the truth. To Kat for bringing us this case and to Joey for keeping it alive for all these years. And to all the witnesses who spoke to us, no matter the risk, we thank all of you. And thanks to Amber, who helped us figure out the expression is actually frying balls. Although I think some of our listeners disagree about that. And to Renee S. She knows why. Shout out to all the bartenders in Manteca for keeping us sane. And to Kevin for paying our tab. And to Ted and his sister. Glad we ran into you guys. Sorry I bumped your song. And to the staff at the Holiday Inn Manteca, thanks for being so accommodating. And to our families but back home who hold down the fort while we're on the road, sometimes for weeks at a time, making it possible for us to do what we do. A huge thank you to you and to all our listeners. Thanks for the messages and posts and words of encouragement and thank you for listening week after week. The more people who hear this story, the more likely we can help both Jake and Renee get the justice they deserve. And lastly, to Kevin and all his charm who makes it all happen whatever it takes because he believes the truth is worth it.

[Susan Simpson]

If you have any information related to this case, we'd love to speak to you. No matter how small a detail it may seem, it just might be more important than you realize. You can reach us by email or leave us a voicemail at 929-26731.

[Jacinda Davis]

That's all for now. Thanks so much for listening. We hope to be back soon with an update.