← Proof: A True Crime Podcast
Proof: A True Crime Podcast
Murder at the Warehouse | Ep. 18 – Shortest Route Possible
00:29:27
Susan Simpson anxiously waits for a crucial update from Jake Silva’s attorneys.
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:31]
B
Hey, everyone, before we continue with this episode, I want to tell you about another podcast. Have you ever wondered what it feels like to watch your house burn down or be attacked by an alligator? Or learn that your spouse hired someone to kill you? If you're dying to know, then what Was that Like? Is the podcast for you? What Was that Like? Is filled with real stories about the most surreal experiences of people's lives. On the show, host Scott Johnson dives deep with his guests into the unbelievable situations they found themselves in, like animal attacks, plane crashes, winning, the Price is Right, and more. The show brings you tons of completely surreal, completely true stories, all told through the lens of the person who actually experienced it.
- [01:11]
A
Check out some of these episodes about wild and gripping stories to gain some insight on what it was like to say, be a professional bridesmaid or lose a leg in a shark attack.
- [01:20]
B
Susan, I think you'd be a really good professional bridesmaid and you'd be really.
- [01:23]
A
Good losing a leg in a shark attack.
- [01:24]
B
Oh, gee, thanks.
- [01:28]
A
So if you want to hear some disturbing and inspiring firsthand stories, you need to check out what Was that Like? Every story is thoroughly researched and fact checked. So, you know, even the most bizarre tales are someone's reality. Listen to what was that like on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Two weeks ago, I was impatiently waiting on a phone call from Jake's attorneys. They had an important update on Jake Silva's case that I couldn't wait to hear about. Finally, the phone rang.
- [02:01]
C
Hey, Susan.
- [02:02]
A
Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Good. Let me.
- [02:07]
C
Let me rope Lauren in quick.
- [02:09]
A
Just a second. Yep.
- [02:11]
C
Do you want a spoiler alert or.
- [02:13]
A
No, no, no spoiler. Let me.
- [02:14]
D
Okay.
- [02:15]
A
All right. I'm Susan Simpson and I'm here with a special Update on season two of Proof. In season two, we covered the murder of 18 year old Renee Ramis in Manteca, California, 24 years ago. Now her boyfriend, Jake Silva was arrested for her murder along with Ty Lopes, the uncle of one of Jake's friends. Proof is a Red Marble Media production in association with Glassbox Media. As you heard in our last update, Jake Silva is now represented by counsel. His attorneys are Audrey McGinn and Lauren Barbosa Finley. Audrey is an attorney with the Innocence center, and Lawrence with the Northern California Innocence Project. After hearing about season two of Proof, both organizations reached out and decided to represent Jake Silva and his claims of innocence and seek to have his conviction overturned. In the morning that I was waiting for their phone call, Jake's new attorneys had their first hearing in the case. It was a remote hearing. They didn't go to court in person, but they spoke with the court and a Prosecutor from the DA's office about Jake's recently renewed motion for DNA testing. At this hearing, Jake's attorneys would find out if the DA's office planned to oppose DNA testing or if they would permit it to go ahead, including the testing of the recently rediscovered evidence that Jacinda and I found in storage at the San Joaquin County Courthouse.
- [03:54]
C
Okay, I think you have both of us now, Susan.
- [03:56]
A
Yeah. So how'd it go, guys?
- [03:58]
C
All right. We just got off the phone with the Superior Court, and the DA said they are not going to oppose additional testing.
- [04:05]
A
That is a relief. And I wish they could have mentioned that sooner, but I'm glad they are now.
- [04:12]
C
Yes, it seems like there's a new person assigned there, but she said she'll allow us to draft up the order, she'll look it over, and hopefully she won't have any problems with that. And we've agreed on a couple additional things, you know, just to kind of protect Jake and the evidence. And we're rocking and rolling over here. Yes, it was really exciting.
- [04:33]
A
Is that common for you guys to have the DA not indicate ahead of time which way they're leaning?
- [04:38]
C
No.
- [04:39]
A
Yeah.
- [04:42]
C
It'S not. Usually we at least get a call if they're going to concede.
- [04:46]
A
Yeah, usually it's kind of like routine ish hearing. There's no pins and needles. You know what's gonna happen.
- [04:52]
C
Yeah, usually there's some kind of contact here. It seems like they aren't super interested in communicating with us, which is fine if they're going to concede on things. So I have no objection to them not contacting us if they're just going to do what we're asking the court to do. So it's fine with me, I guess. Yeah, absolutely.
- [05:10]
A
Fantastic news. What did you guys ask for? For testing in terms of protections?
- [05:14]
C
So we asked to be notified if they're going to consume a sample. So just in case there's a really small sample of something in the lab thinks that they're going to consume all of the DNA that's available, that they'll notify us first. That wasn't contemplated in the original order. And the original order didn't mention the necklaces specifically. And so we're going to add those in also.
- [05:33]
A
Oh, good. I'd hate to overlook that at this point.
- [05:38]
C
Yes.
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A
Obvious.
- [05:38]
C
Yes. So we're going to test the necklaces. We're going to do some STR testing and some YSTR testing on those. The difference between those is a YSTR testing is for male DNA only. So because they were Renee's necklaces and she was wearing them, we're expected to see a lot of her DNA on the necklaces, which is female DNA, obviously. But the technology allows us to separate male and female DNA now, which allows testing to get a profile in a lot of sexual assault cases or cases where there's a female victim to separate out the male and female DNA. And because we believe she was choked with the necklaces, we hope to get a good male profile. That's not fake, is the hope.
- [06:21]
A
I've talked to Jake about it before. I know you have too. But Jake is obviously aware that given his proximity to Renee and Packer living together on the streets, there's a non zero chance that his DNA is going to pop up there too.
- [06:33]
C
It's possible. And if his DNA comes back, it doesn't mean that he had anything to do with the crime. Still. It just means he had close contact with Renee and those necklaces previously. Right. Because you never know why DNA gets someplace. All you know is that it is there.
- [06:51]
A
For Jake, DNA testing carries a risk. Even if he had nothing to do with Renee's death, he and Renee were living out in the streets together, curling up beside each other every night. Small amounts of Jake's DNA could have ended up on Renee's clothing and necklaces just from their constant contact with one another. And with a sensitive enough DNA test, that DNA could potentially be detected. But the possibility of some of his DNA being found in Renee's necklaces doesn't worry Jake. What worries Jake is the possibility that no DNA will be found from anyone. For him, that's the worst case scenario. Here it is Jake's hope that the necklaces were preserved well enough that DNA still remains on them today, even if that were to include traces of his own DNA. Because although we can't know for certain, the evidence seems to suggest that Renee's necklaces were the likely murder weapon. In this case. And that means that even if traces of Jake's DNA might have been transferred to those necklaces just from incidental contact, well, whoever killed Renee definitely would have left their DNA behind there.
- [08:02]
C
So we can explain the presence of Jake's DNA. What we won't be able to explain is the presence of an unknown male.
- [08:08]
A
In terms of simplicity. I mean, the hope obviously is for just one male profile, or if it's two for one to be Jake, because Jake is known to be easy to eliminate. And then that'll make it easy to find out who the other one is.
- [08:20]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:22]
A
I guess sort of a medium range outcome would be a bunch of unknown male profiles popping up. In which case that would really hard.
- [08:30]
C
It's really hard to interpret a complex mixture. Labs are usually. You can go up to three. Usually is what a lot of labs kind of base their standards for. They will interpret samples for up to three contributors. And it gets really, really tricky after that.
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D
Yeah.
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A
And we know Renee's is there, so it's a hope is for a mixed profile, but. Yeah, a minimally mixed profile.
- [08:51]
C
Yeah, it gets harder and harder to exclude with more people contributing to the sample and much harder to compare it to anyone else. And we wouldn't be able to run it through codis. So the hope is for one male profile, compare it to Jake, it's not him, and then we can run it through CODIS and see if there's a hit that way.
- [09:11]
A
There are so many possible permutations here of what the lab might find that it's impossible to outline them all. But for Jake, and for our hopes of solving this case, here's the number one best case scenario. The necklaces come back with two profiles. One female, one male. The female profile will be Renee's, and the male profile turns out not to be Jake's. If we're lucky, it's a complete profile that can be run through CODIS and matched to a known prior offender. For instance, Jared Conway, the serial sex offender who lived near Renee and whose friend recalled him speaking about her case, was later arrested for kidnapping another teenage girl. Which means his DNA is already in the system. If he was the one who killed Renee, then that should result in a quick match. But that's only one possible scenario. And the second best case scenario here would be something like a mixed profile with one female contributor. Again, that would be Renee and two males, with one minor male contributor and one major male contributor. In that scenario, if it turned out the minor contributor was consistent with Jake's profile, that could actually make things easier in a way, by helping us untangle the mixture and isolate the source of the remaining profile so we can identify who it came from. But there are many more possibilities than that. And from there, things just get messier and more complicated. For instance, it could turn out to be a mixed sample where there are two male contributors but both of them are unknown. Or there could be more than three contributors found. Or some of the profiles could turn out to be partial with incomplete results obtained. These kinds of results can have forensic significance, but they're also more ambiguous and often wind up being disputed in court. First things first, though. Before worrying about all of that, we need to find out what DNA is there in the first place. What's the time frame here? What are you thinking might happen?
- [11:09]
C
This takes months, honestly. I mean, so we're going to get the order to the DA this week. They'll have time to look it over, and she'll be able to run it through her supervisors. We have another hearing in two weeks, and then the court has to send the evidence to the lab. The lab probably will have a turnaround of maybe six months for us to get it back. If there is a usable or comparable profile, they will have to order probably a reference sample from Jake, a new one. That's what they like to do. Then we can compare it to Jake if there's a male profile. If not, we'll have to do separate litigation to run it through codis. So this is not a quick process, unfortunately. There is a state data bank, but we want to run it through the national data bank, which includes California. And you have to have specific approval. There's a lot of regulations around who's able to upload to CODIS and under what circumstances. And so hopefully the DA would concede on that if the time comes to that, and then that can be fairly quick within a couple weeks. But these things do take a lot of time, unfortunately.
- [12:08]
A
Is there any possibility of checking against specific people who may or may not be in codis?
- [12:13]
C
Yes.
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B
Okay.
- [12:14]
C
Yes.
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A
What about genetic genealogy?
- [12:17]
C
Yeah, we can do that. Also, that takes a long time. Also, it all depends on how solid of a profile we're able to get from the evidence that we're testing and what we're able to do with it, because you can't upload a partial profile into CODIS either. And so it all just kind of depends on how this DNA comes back. We're ready for the long journey and hoping for the shortest route possible.
- [12:39]
A
Well, look, our listeners are used to hearing it can take years, so. So it's going to take months is good news.
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C
Months for the DNA. How we interpret the DNA is usually where the year's analysis comes into play.
- [12:57]
A
If all goes well, we should have results back from the lab in six months or maybe less, potentially even before the end of the year, if we're lucky.
- [13:06]
C
We're feeling hopeful. It's just a step by step thing and we've crossed this step and we're hoping for positive results and that we can do it as quickly as possible for Jake's sake. Absolutely. We're trucking along here and continuing that call out for any information or anything that the listeners might be able to provide us with. We're still, of course, always open to that.
- [13:27]
E
Yeah.
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A
Full steam ahead on the DNA, but other avenues continue as well. Well, thanks, guys, and I hope for new updates soon. After talking to Jake's attorneys, I called Jacinda and Kevin to give them the good news. The DNA testing is going ahead.
- [13:45]
B
That's just amazing. Kind of feels like it's right on schedule.
- [13:49]
A
Yeah. Whatever is going on. DA's office, I'm glad they're not opposing this. And hopefully before the end of next week, the evidence will be on its way to the lab and hopefully testing not too much long after that.
- [14:02]
F
The evidence that you two found sitting in a box in the courthouse.
- [14:06]
A
Yeah, the evidence that was quote, unquote lost. I mean, did we really find it, Jacinda, when it was always just there?
- [14:12]
B
I don't know. I mean, it felt like we found it because we were both surprised and super excited. So it did feel like a find.
- [14:19]
F
At a minimum, you two located it. At a minimum, I think you found it, but at a minimum you located it.
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B
Susan, do you remember we were trying to, like, keep her cool. Like, we weren't that excited.
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A
We were pretty cool. We'll be looking. I remember when the clerk was like handling the bag and we're both like, yeah, it's all right, let's get that there.
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B
She's like, should we open this one?
- [14:42]
A
No, no.
- [14:45]
F
You two have such great poker faces.
- [14:48]
A
We did that day, actually. We usually do. Not at all. But I feel like that day we were. We were very subtle.
- [14:54]
B
Actually, you know what? I have some pictures I'll post of you, like over the table, looking, looking at the evidence. I'll post a couple of those pictures.
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F
I have a question about the testing. So was it determined in the hearing what is going to be tested?
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A
Yes, they made a few changes. They made an order for specifically the Necklaces, making sure those were listed, itemized. No doubts whatsoever. They also made some changes to identify the two hairs that were at the courthouse by their exhibit number and evidence number. So there's no doubt about those being included as well. Her clothing, like jeans, underwear, bra, shirt. I believe that is all from the courthouse that we sent in.
- [15:39]
F
I mean, that's. That's amazing.
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A
It's what we hope for so far. You know, I. I hope the DA's office is more forthcoming in the future, but I'm glad they're not opposing it. And maybe there's just not very chatty as attorneys.
- [15:55]
B
Well, what you mean by more forthcoming is that they're kind of not giving any indication on how they feel about the case. Is that what you think?
- [16:04]
A
Yeah.
- [16:04]
B
I mean, not that they have to.
- [16:06]
A
No, they don't. It's just kind of surprising that.
- [16:08]
F
I mean. Yeah, it's hard not to read into that. Right. But you'll never know what they're thinking, and they could just be caught off guard by all of it, to a certain degree.
- [16:17]
B
Yeah. And who knows, once the items have been sent and results are back, they will probably start talking a lot more.
- [16:24]
A
Yeah. So now we wait and see what the lab's workload is like. And yeah, hopefully before too long, we'll get results back.
- [16:34]
B
In the meantime, Susan, you know, the DNA could take months to test and for the results to come back, do Jake's attorneys have a strategy to look for, you know, other avenues to overturn his conviction?
- [16:46]
A
Absolutely. And they are looking at other avenues in the event that the DNA doesn't give the conclusive, decided results we're hoping for or the DA disputes them. They're still investigating. I mean, it's a hard situation because technically we could have an answer to everything in a few months. So you don't want to start other processes that can take years to play out when you know, that might hopefully not at all be necessary.
- [17:09]
F
So this is a moment of great hope. Right. It's what could have been really hoped for when you all started looking at this case and we all started working on it, is to come to a moment where you can. Can bring this evidence forward and say, let's look at this. Yeah, let's hope that we get a good result for Jake, figure out what really happened, that.
- [17:44]
A
So we're obviously in the middle of the podcast season now. Things get hectic, and sometimes trying to figure out and shop for dinner is the bane of my existence.
- [17:54]
B
I think shopping and planning for dinner is the bane of your existence on any day. But yes, especially during the middle of our podcast season, I do not have.
- [18:03]
A
The emotional bandwidth or labor to be able to plan out healthy meals, which is why Green Chef is amazing.
- [18:08]
B
I agree. If it wasn't for Green Chef, I don't think we'd be eating dinner at night.
- [18:12]
A
We would not have eaten last night. But we had salmon and couscous, and it was hands down the best couscous I've ever had in my life.
- [18:18]
B
It's funny because I had the same one yesterday and it was really good. It was so good. So if you're like us and finding time to make meals and planning is a nuisance, or you just want to eat healthy, try Green Chef.
- [18:32]
A
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- [18:38]
B
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- [18:45]
A
My wellness goal is not starving to death. So right now go to greenchef.com proofgraza and use code proofgraza to get started with 50% off Green Chef plus free Graza olive oil set in your second and third boxes. This 50% off offers only available for a limited time, so don't wait. That's code proofgraza@greenchef.com proofgraza. This summer, when Cinda and I were investigating out in the field, we basically both lived in Quint's clothes.
- [19:18]
B
It is so true. I think everything I packed came from Quint's.
- [19:23]
A
Luckily, I wear color and you don't, so we didn't end up being twinsies, which would have been awkward, but, you know.
- [19:27]
B
Oh, you don't want to be twinsies with me, Susan?
- [19:29]
A
No, I prefer to have colors other than grayscale.
- [19:32]
B
Well, it's because you have Quince then. Because they have both black stuff for me and colorful stuff for you.
- [19:37]
A
The problem is it is now cold as heck and we need new clothes to go out in the field or I'm not going.
- [19:44]
B
Well, go back to Quint's. I just ordered some cashmere sweaters that are super warm and super comfortable.
- [19:50]
A
That's funny, because I'm actually literally about to buy the Mongolian cashmere sweatshirt.
- [19:53]
B
You should totally do that. I splurged and I got my husband the Mongolian cashmere pullover hoodie, which is really nice.
- [20:00]
A
And you're gonna steal it, I'm sure.
- [20:02]
B
I was gonna say I'm gonna start wearing it for myself.
- [20:05]
A
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- [20:14]
B
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- [20:21]
A
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- [20:30]
B
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com proof to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com proof.
- [20:42]
G
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H
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- [20:46]
A
Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
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G
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- [21:20]
A
The recent court hearing was conducted remotely, so no one was there in person, and the friends and family of both victim and defendants in this case were unaware of it until it was over. Jacinda called Mandy Tai Lopes daughter to let her know that things were finally in motion in Jake's case.
- [21:36]
B
No one was at the court. It wasn't a hearing that anyone attended. It was all done remotely. They said, yes, we agree, and let's get them tested.
- [21:47]
E
That's amazing. I know you can't see me right now, but I'm smiling so big right now. That's awesome. I'm happy. That's the best. And Jake's going to come home. That's amazing.
- [21:58]
B
That's what everyone's hope is, right? You know, DNA is not always conclusive, and we're staking a lot on it. But when Susan and I saw the items, they looked like they were still in good condition. They were still pretty bagged. They hadn't been open. So theoretically they should have the killer's DNA on them.
- [22:19]
E
It's so exciting. I can't wait for something to come back and see what it comes out. That's a little like. I don't know why I get nervous.
- [22:26]
B
But I understand that nervousness. Right. It's almost like you want to be optimistic, but you know better than anyone, every time you probably felt like there was a little bit hope or a little bit of progress, it just gets slammed in your face again. So.
- [22:40]
E
But this has never happened before so it's a little more exciting this time.
- [22:45]
B
I'm always really amazed that you are excited for Jake.
- [22:51]
C
Oh, of course.
- [22:52]
E
I think it's like family. I don't know him that well, but after all this, of course, it's too.
- [22:58]
B
Bad your dad's not around. But this is what he always wanted. It's what he always fought for.
- [23:04]
E
Yeah, for sure. I know he's happy.
- [23:07]
B
You know, we're hopeful that within the next six months, we'll get the results back.
- [23:11]
E
Oh, wow, that's really cool. I hope it's sooner. I'm gonna think about it all the time now, like, oh, is it gonna happen today? Oh, am I gonna get a call today? But, yeah, that's awesome. I bet Jake is really happy.
- [23:24]
B
He's excited and he's happy, but he's very guarded in those feelings because.
- [23:29]
E
Oh, yeah, I'm sure.
- [23:31]
B
You know, we were saying earlier, hope is good, but hope can also be dangerous.
- [23:36]
A
Yeah.
- [23:36]
E
With this one, you don't get your hopes up too much. But sometimes it's hard.
- [23:41]
B
Exactly. But, yeah, as always, we'll keep you updated when we learn new things. And, Mandy, thanks so much.
- [23:54]
A
Jake has been here before. Back in 2016, there was a motion for DNA testing. It was granted, but then Renee's clothing and necklaces and the hairs from the crime scene couldn't be found. The Manteca police department told the court that these items were all missing, so no testing of new evidence took place then. This time, though, we know exactly where those crucial pieces of evidence are located. They are not missing anymore. They are safe and sound at the courthouse. Still, Jake has learned the hard way that in cases like this, things can go wrong in ways you'd never expect, and nothing can be counted on until it happens. Donna Ramis, Renee's mother, has learned the hard way, too, just how difficult and unexpected these cases can be. For a long time, she thought she had answers to what happened to her daughter, only to come to the realization many years later that whatever the truth is, it is not the story that was told in court. After the recent court hearing, we spoke to Donna as well to update her on what was happening, and she indicated that they would not be opposing testing. So an order is being prepared right now, and I believe the plan is to file up by the end of the week to get the newly found evidence sent to a lab to be tested. Wow.
- [25:12]
D
That's great.
- [25:13]
A
Yeah, I mean, that was what we were hoping. That's what we thought would probably happen, but without any indication from the DA's office. We just didn't know. And we're not sure what exactly their thinking is at this point, but they're not opposing it, so testing will go ahead. Wow.
- [25:29]
D
Everything just. Or the necklaces?
- [25:32]
A
Only the necklaces for sure. Also the clothing, the two hairs that were at the courthouse. I know that Jake's attorneys were interested in having some of the other hairs tested possibly as well, but we didn't see them at the courthouse and we don't know for sure where they are. If the police do still have them, which they might, then they could be obtained from there. But as far as I know, at this point, they're still mia, but still the clothing, the necklaces to the important hairs, I mean, that's a fantastic start.
- [25:57]
B
Wow.
- [25:57]
A
Wow.
- [25:58]
D
We've been waiting for this, right?
- [26:02]
B
Yeah, we have been waiting for this. I mean, he's been wanting this tested for a long time. And finally it seems like, knock on wood, that it's going to happen.
- [26:11]
A
I hate to get my hopes up for anything, especially DNA. I'm never the DNA optimist. I'm always the one that, in all my cases, I'm like, well, we'll worry about that if it happens. But that's always the last chance I'm concerned with. But it's hard not to get my hopes up here.
- [26:26]
D
I think everybody who listens to the podcast are all in the same boat, like we are, like I am, because I don't see any. Anything going on. So I'm sure everyone that watches the podcast is ready for some news. A lot of people, I. I'm so surprised. All the amount of people to listen, it's just amazing. They're just all involved in it. It's really something else.
- [26:51]
A
And just knowing we might have an answer, a real answer, we could know within a few months.
- [26:56]
D
Yeah, that's great.
- [26:59]
B
Donna, were you surprised by the outpouring of support? From the comments I've read, a lot of people are like, they want justice for Jake, but just as importantly, they want justice for Renee, whatever that answer is. Were you surprised by that?
- [27:14]
A
Yeah, I was.
- [27:16]
D
I was surprised that so many people were like, justice for Renee. Justice for Jake and Renee. They want to get to the bottom of it just like you guys do. And everybody wants to find out the real story, but I just want to be able to hopefully see some justice in this. I don't want it to be for nothing. You guys did so much work on it. You did a lot of. A lot of hours. Your whole life was probably involved with it. I just want to be able to see something come out of it, something for Jake. I really feel for him that I really want to see justice. If Jake is actually innocent, I want that to come out well.
- [28:02]
A
Now we wait. Fingers crossed and hopeful for a relatively speedy resolution here. I mean, I don't want to get people's hopes up, but I really think for the end of the year, we may know what really happened.
- [28:13]
D
What really happened. So what does that mean exactly? Does that mean he's going to get a new trial?
- [28:22]
A
It all depends what the DNA shows. From there, there's so many, theoretically, there are some scenarios where the results are so conclusive and so ironclad that the DA just agrees to end the case. That's not a very common result. There's usually some level of something they can argue in which case will go for the courts. But that all depends on what exactly comes back from the lab.
- [28:46]
B
Yeah, you know, it's a waiting game.
- [28:49]
D
Hopefully there was some strong DNA that.
- [28:51]
A
Will be there, but the investigation continues in other avenues regardless. I mean, I'm hopeful for the DNA, but you can't count on it. And there are other things that need to be done. We are all hopeful that the answers we seek will finally be found when DNA testing is completed, but we're not counting on that. The investigation continues until we find out what happened, whether those answers are found in the DNA or whether they lie elsewhere. Still, it's hard not to be hopeful about the DNA. And now that the DA's office has agreed to testing, it should happen soon. As of right now, the court anticipates that an order for DNA testing will be signed on September 9 and the evidence will be shipped to the lab that same day. And as soon as testing is completed and results are known, we'll be back to update you. Hopefully not too long from now.
- [29:47]
B
You've been listening to Proof, a podcast by Red Marble Media in association with Glassware Box Media. Send us your questions and comments@proof crimepodmail.com follow us everywhere with the handle roofcrimepod and on our website, proofcrimepod.com thanks so much for listening.
- [30:14]
H
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