Murder at the Warehouse | Sidebar 16

Summary

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Proof: A True Crime Podcast – Murder at the Warehouse | Sidebar 16

Release Date: May 2, 2024
Hosts: Susan Simpson, Jacinda Davis, Kevin

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Overview

This episode, Sidebar 16, is the final sidebar of season two of Proof's investigation into the murder of Renee Ramos. The hosts reflect on new interviews, revisit pivotal moments from the case, and discuss recent discoveries that may indicate potential Brady violations—failures by the prosecution to disclose exculpatory evidence. Alongside in-depth analysis, the episode provides a candid, behind-the-scenes look into the people who have come forward, their motivations, and the labyrinthine structure of the original investigation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections on New and Returning Interview Subjects

(00:57–06:50)

• Victoria’s Perspective:

  • Victoria, who initially pointed the team toward suspect Tim Fisher, watched footage from his second interview. Her longstanding suspicions arose in part from an off-hand comment:

    "At some point, Tim even got away with murder." – Recapped by Susan (02:57)

  • Amber, Tim’s ex, denies meaning the phrase literally and doesn’t recall saying it.

    "She said that if she did say it, it was just because it's an expression...in no way would have been referencing Rene Ramis's case.” – Jacinda (03:15)

• Tim’s Behavior Under Scrutiny:

  • Victoria told the hosts to watch for Tim’s “selective yawning” as a possible tell, an observation the hosts debate playfully.

• Amber’s Memory of Early Accusations Toward Tim:

  • Amber recalls friends seriously confronting Tim about the murder shortly after it happened, though she didn’t believe he was capable.

    “She remembers that it wasn't said in a joking manner...but that he was adamant that he had nothing to do with it.” – Jacinda (06:07)

  • Amber was surprised to realize her relationship with Tim began so soon after the crime, not years later as she recalled.

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2. The Interview with “Junior” – A Key Figure in the Conway Angle

(09:42–18:18)

• Surreal and Tense Setup:

  • The near-calamitous journey to meet Junior set the tone; he arrived hours late, bringing bail money in case of arrest:

    “He was deadly serious, that that was a real possibility, and he did it anyway.” – Susan (11:05)

• Junior's Connection:

  • Junior, close friend of Jared Conway, believes fervently in Jake and Ty’s innocence and claims to know the true perpetrator.
  • He insists his motivation is to correct an injustice:

    "It's not fair that this kid...has been sitting in prison for 24 years." – Jacinda (12:28)

• Junior’s Experiences with Conway:

  • Junior recounts disturbing stories about Jared, including an attempt to coax a teenage girl into his car on the night his niece was abducted.
  • He describes Conway as brazen and methodical—possibly a repeat offender.

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3. New Testimonies: "The Source" and Attempts to Come Forward

(18:18–22:49)

• Reluctance, Repeated Attempts, and Frustration

  • The “source,” whose story first emerged via Kelly, tried to report evidence to police multiple times:

    “He tried to come forward right after this all happened.” – Jacinda (19:17)

• His account is described as bizarre and not fully comprehensible, even by himself—which the hosts feel lends credence to his testimony.

  • Susan emphasizes:

    “It’s clearly not a story he’s invented to try and point guilt at someone...He just remembers what he experienced.” (19:40)

• Potential Brady Violation:

  • If the source's attempt to contact police was ignored or withheld from defense, it would constitute a critical Brady violation.

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4. The Problem of Brady Violations and Hidden Police Records

(22:49–36:30)

• Defining the Legal Stakes:

  • Hosts clarify what qualifies as a Brady violation:

    “For a Brady violation, it also doesn't matter if. If what he is saying is true or not. Right. It's just the fact that he's presenting a different scenario.” – Jacinda (22:10)

  • Susan adds:

    “If defense attorneys knew what he had to share...they would have changed their investigative tactics and looked in directions they weren't looking at the time.” (22:22)

• Jesse Howlin’s Testimony Under Scrutiny:

  • Jesse Howlin, key prosecution witness as a teenager, now insists he only visited Ty’s house once—and it was before Renee’s death, contradicting his original statements.
  • A surprising court transcript suggests his sighting of Ty and Jake occurred during an unrelated April theft, not after Renee’s disappearance.

• Ty Lopes as Informant:

  • Investigation reveals that Ty was at one time a confidential informant for police on Renee's case, unknown to Jake and Jake’s defense, possibly shaping the investigation’s trajectory.

    “In other words, Tai Lopes was an informant for the police for this murder. Like, he was literally working...until at some point, Detective Souza changes his mind, decided his informant's actually a suspect, and arrests him.” – Susan (30:44)

• Discovery of Suppressed or Mishandled Evidence:

  • The paperwork, if found, would reveal major inconsistencies—a "smoking gun" in proving a flawed or manipulated investigation.

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5. Systemic Barriers: Stonewalled by Police and Record-Keeping

(39:19–40:20)

• Frustration with Access to Records:

  • The hosts bemoan the inability to access crucial police, court, and investigative files—California does not require law enforcement agencies to release such records.

    “Brady violations are hard to discover when an agency is not required to hand over their files, which is the case in California.” – Susan (38:32)

• Jacinda clarifies that blanket denials are bureaucratic, not conspiratorial.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When you're suspicious of someone, then everything they do and say, you see through that lens of suspicion.” – Jacinda (04:21)
• “[Junior] showed up with a lot of bail money...He didn't know Renee and her family doesn't know. Jake didn't know. Tai...What he believes is that Jake and Ty are innocent, and he believes he knows who did it. And he's like, enough is enough. I'll risk everything.” – Jacinda (12:28)
• “[The source] remembers what he experienced. And even though it sounds odd...that’s what he saw and thought and interpreted at the time.” – Susan (19:40)
• "If defense attorneys knew what he had to share...they would have changed their investigative tactics." – Susan (22:22)
• "In other words, Tai Lopes was an informant for the police for this murder...until at some point, Detective Souza changes his mind, decided his informant's actually a suspect, and arrests him." – Susan (30:44)
• “Brady violations are hard to discover when an agency is not required to hand over their files, which is the case in California.” – Susan (38:32)
• [On record denial:] "I don't think we send a request into Manteca Police department...and they looked at our requests and were like, 'oh, we shouldn't give them these files because this case is, like, shady or something.' It's just a blanket denial." – Jacinda (39:34)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:57 – Episode introduction, context for the last sidebar
• 02:03 – Recap of new and old interviewees: Victoria, Amber, Tim
• 09:42 – Introduction to “Junior” and the wild journey to his interview
• 13:01 – Junior’s certainty about Jake and Ty’s innocence and knowledge of Jared Conway
• 18:18 – Discussion of "the source," his attempts to come forward, and why his story matters
• 22:49 – Legal analysis of Brady violations in context of the source’s story
• 25:00 – Deep dive into Jesse Howlin’s testimony and the April theft
• 30:44 – Revelation that Ty Lopes was a confidential informant
• 39:19 – Frustration & explanation about roadblocks to accessing police records
• 40:20 – Closing thoughts and plans for final episode

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Tone and Style

The conversation remains analytical but personal, with Susan often expressing both legal precision and frustration, Jacinda bringing empathetic insights to people's motivations, and Kevin offering a skeptical, wry commentary. The hosts banter openly (e.g., about “selective yawning” or their wardrobe), providing light moments amid their meticulous examination of the case’s procedural failures.

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Conclusion

Sidebar 16 serves as a crucial synthesis before the season finale, highlighting the maze of faulty memories, suspect investigations, new leads, missed opportunities, and the ongoing hurdle of unreleased records. It underlines a core theme of Proof: that convictions, and even the core narrative of a crime, can often rest on far shakier ground—and be far more convoluted—than the legal system admits.

Listeners are encouraged to stay tuned for the season’s final installment and teased with the promise of future updates as the team pursues newly opened avenues.

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Transcript

[Reggie]

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[Susan]

Yep.

[Reggie]

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[Kevin]

You don't say.

[Reggie]

Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast. Wow. Way to go. So about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Jacinda]

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[Susan]

Hello and welcome to this week's sidebar. We're here to discuss episode 16 of season two of Peru. And this is actually the last sidebar for the season. Next week's the final episode. There'll be no sidebar after that. But I'm here today with Kevin and Jacinda to talk about the season, how it's going, and where we're heading after this. Hey, guys.

[Jacinda]

Hey, Susan.

[Kevin]

Hey, Susan.

[Jacinda]

Before you get started, Susan, I want to just say thank you to everyone who suggested that we do sidebars from dive bars. And I really wanted to make that happen, but we couldn't make it happen for today's sidebar. But maybe for a future sidebar.

[Susan]

Yes, at some point, we'll have an actual sidebar from a dive bar. And do it live.

[Jacinda]

And do it live.

[Susan]

No editing.

[Jacinda]

That would be scary. But there you go.

[Kevin]

That will certainly be something if we do that.

[Susan]

In this week's episode, though, we heard from some people who've not heard from before in the season. We also heard again from Victoria, who got a chance to watch some of what we filmed with Tim Fisher during our second interview. And you heard her reaction to seeing it. We also heard from Tim's ex, who confusingly is also named Amber, and about her relationship with him and what she knew of the case. And talking to Amber finally and hearing from her finally really helped put in perspective for me anyway, what Victoria told us, what feels like so long ago now. And Victoria was basically the first person to ever tell us to go look at Tim and kind of kicked off where we are now.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. And Victoria had very clear memories and reasons why she has suspected Tim was involved in some way. And talking To Amber put some of those reasons into perspective.

[Susan]

I think, like, one of them, of course, is Victoria says that Amber told her years ago now, at some point, Tim even got away with murder. And to her, with her suspicions, she, of course, thought that meant that Amber knew something about Tim and this case, and that's not the case at all.

[Jacinda]

Yeah, Amber explained that that was. She doesn't even remember saying that. And she said that if she did say it, it was just because it's an expression and she would not have meant it literally and in no way would have been referencing Rene Ramis's case.

[Kevin]

Yeah. And it brings home how strongly Victoria has thought for so long that Tim somehow could be involved, because that's how she's interpreting the comment. And having met her and been there that day of her interview when she was looking at the clips, you know, this is something that she has struggled with for a long time. It's been on her mind for a long time.

[Susan]

And she's been interacting with Tim for a long time. Like, even after. Long after these doubts first surfaced, she, you know, resumed relationship with Tim, hangs out with him socially. Not anymore, but, you know, in the past. And she felt certain in some sense about it, but had nothing to prove it. So she still. Still talked to him, still hung out with him, had good times with him, even. Yeah.

[Jacinda]

And I think, though, you know, the comment's a perfect example of how when you're suspicious of someone, then everything they do and say, you see through that lens of suspicion.

[Susan]

Yeah, that is 100% true. And I will also still stand by the fact that Toria is right, that Tim's selective yawning during our interview with him is possibly a tell.

[Jacinda]

The question is a tell of what?

[Kevin]

Yeah, I mean, he was clearly unsettled, but as someone would be if you're presenting that Eric Greer video to him. I took Victoria that day that we sat down with her, second day that you all did the first time that I did. And as she'd been waiting for someone for a long time to come along and hear what she had to say, and she was, you know, eager is not the right word. I think she was relieved to finally be telling it to someone other than inside her own head. And I think she was hoping that it would all go somewhere at some point.

[Susan]

And you heard as well that Amber, Tim's ex, talked about how she recalled back in 2000. So, you know, just. Just a few months after all this, how there were discussions about the case and people were even then accusing Tim or Not even accusing, Just saying, like, tim, what happened? Did you do this? What the hell? You took it too far. And this is her new boyfriend at the time, and she's, like, just listening and trying to process it. And she recalls him always denying it, like, she wasn't. She remembers it clearly, but she did not seem to think at the time that it was plausible he had done it. But she does recall people who are talking to him about it were his friends, and they seem to be very serious about these concerns.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. She remembers that it wasn't said in a joking manner that they were serious, but that he was adamant that he had nothing to do with it. She believed him, I think, you know, like, there was no reason for her not to trust that he had nothing to do with it.

[Kevin]

She was taken aback when you all pointed out that this was a few months prior to when she started seeing him. And that moment sort of stunned her a little bit, I think.

[Susan]

Yeah. In her head, it was clearly distance from her relationship with him. Like, she thought she. She had imagined it as her meeting him long after this was all over. Not as in they got together in the wake of it happening. And that he very possibly was up in the city where she met him because of all this.

[Kevin]

Right. He had left Manteca at this time, and that's when she met him.

[Susan]

This summer, when Jacinda and I were investigating out in the field, we basically both lived in Quint's clothes.

[Jacinda]

It is so true. I think everything I packed came from quints.

[Susan]

Luckily, I wear color and you don't, so we didn't end up being twinsies, which would have been awkward, but, you know.

[Jacinda]

Oh, you don't want to be twinsies with me, Susan.

[Susan]

I prefer to have colors other than grayscale.

[Jacinda]

Well, it's because you have Quince, then. Because they have both black stuff for me and colorful stuff for you.

[Susan]

The problem is it is now cold as heck, and we need new clothes to go out in the field, or I'm not going.

[Jacinda]

Well, go back to quints. I just ordered some cashmere sweaters that are super warm and super comfortable.

[Susan]

That's funny, because I'm actually literally about to buy the Mongolian cashmere sweatshirt.

[Jacinda]

You should totally do that. I splurged, and I got my husband the Mongolian cashmere pullover hoodie, which is really nice.

[Susan]

And you're gonna steal it, I'm sure.

[Jacinda]

I was gonna say I'm gonna start wearing it for myself.

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[Susan]

So we're obviously in the middle of the podcast season now. Things get hectic and sometimes trying to figure out and shop for dinner is the bane of my existence.

[Jacinda]

I think shopping and planning for dinner is the bane of your existence on any day. But yes, especially during the middle of.

[Susan]

Our podcast season, I do not have the emotional bandwidth or labor to be able to plan out healthy meals. Which is why Green Chef is amazing.

[Jacinda]

I agree. If it wasn't for Green Chef, I don't think we'd be eating dinner at night.

[Susan]

We would not have eaten last night. But we had salmon and cucumber and it was hands down the best couscous I've ever had in my life.

[Jacinda]

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[Jacinda]

It was. Yeah, it was crazy. We just getting to interview Junior was an experience. We almost crashed or almost forgot that. Yeah, had a near. I don't even know how to explain it.

[Susan]

It was whenever you're on a highway and you're looking into like, straight on, head on into the. Like, the windshield of another driver, you know, who was coming towards you're. We were in the right lane to clarify. We were. We were going the right way. The other person was not.

[Jacinda]

And everything is slow motion, and you're like, wow, that. That was really close. So just getting to the interview was a lot. And then we met Junior, and I agree, Susan, that was a pretty wild, wild interview.

[Susan]

He was able to put a lot of things in context that we hadn't expected, even beyond we heard in the show. Just general background information about some of the dynamics going on in Matika and Modesto in general. But I cannot stress enough, like, how serious this guy was and believing that he might be arrested and go to prison for years by showing up to tell us what he knew, like, he was deadly serious, that that was a real possibility, and he did it anyway.

[Jacinda]

And just to remind everyone, Junior came forward because he believes he has information about Jared Conway. And you're right, he came forward not knowing for sure what he was walking into.

[Susan]

He.

[Jacinda]

He thought we maybe had made everything up, and we were there to arrest him, which may explain why he was, like, three hours late to the interview. He probably was pacing back and forth wondering, should I do it? Should I not do it?

[Susan]

I walked out to meet him when he got the interview location, and, like, the relief in his eyes when he saw me walking out was very real.

[Kevin]

I was not there for the interview with YouTube, but Jacinda was giving me constant text updates, and I didn't think he was coming. I was like, well, this guy is either full of shit or. Or he thinks you guys are going to be, you know, there to arrest him or something. But he did, and he showed up with bail money, so.

[Jacinda]

Showed up with a lot of bail money. And. And this is someone who doesn't know anyone. He does. He didn't know Renee and her family doesn't know. Jake didn't know. Tai. You know, all he knows is what he believes, and what he believes is that Jake and Ty are innocent, and he believes he knows who did it. And he's like, enough is enough. I. I'll risk everything, because it's not fair that this kid now, man, has been sitting in prison for 24 years.

[Kevin]

The one thing that stood out about that is that has not been the case with many people in this story, and a lot of people haven't come forward. And we all know that there are other people out there with more information, but this guy who. Who has, you know, legal problems did Come forward. And I, I think on, on some level that's, you know, absolutely amazing that he believes that strongly in making sure that, that justice is done. And he certainly knows Jared Conway in a way that nobody else we've spoken.

[Susan]

To does that probably no one else alive does today. I mean, he was one of Jared's better friends and from what I can tell, he didn't have that many. And certainly no one else is claiming he was a friend today on the outside.

[Kevin]

Yeah. And he was, he was a long term friend. I mean, they would, if they lost track of each other for years, be it because of jail or something like that, they would still reconnect.

[Susan]

Yeah. Jared always came back from his trips to other states for undetermined and undisclosed reasons at times. Yeah. There's a lot about Jared that I wonder about and obviously Junior does too. But as Junior explained, by the end of it, he was done with Jared for various reasons. He'd had enough and was ready just. Well, he says at that time, ready to move on forever. Especially after Jared came and told him about this thing in Memphis that happened. And then of course, that night is when his niece is abducted and their relationship was really over for good. One thing we didn't mention in the show that's interesting too though, is that that night. So Jared goes over to Junior's house and says, hey man, I'm back in town. These cops in Memphis are trying to call my dad. Like, stuff's going on. Junior's like, bro, no, I'm over this. You gotta go. Go now. Well, what he finds out later is that on the way out at the next block over, Jared actually crosses a block party and tries to convince like a 17 year old girl to get into his car with him. And the people there like are like, what the hell? No, go, get away. And then he goes home and abducts Junior's 14 year old niece. So in Junior's mind, Jared was just out for anyone that night. He doesn't think that he was planning on doing that to his niece. We don't know. But what Junior knows is that Jared also tried to get some other teenage girl into his car before that happened and failed.

[Jacinda]

It almost sounds like, you know, Jared knew someone from Memphis had called looking for him. He was feeling the pressure, like maybe.

[Susan]

His gig was up, which we know from the brother. We spoke to one of Jared's brothers. He also recalls being told that Memphis police were trying or Tennessee police were trying to reach Jared to ask about some kind of homicide case there.

[Kevin]

Yeah, I Think he knew the walls were closing in on him, that's for sure.

[Susan]

Except we now know for that case, they weren't. Or at least they haven't yet. He's now in prison, of course, for the abduction, but he's never, as far as we're aware, faced any legal charges in Tennessee for or anything. Jared did not admit to Latoya's murder, but I don't think we have many slash any doubts that he was involved in her death and possibly the only one involved in her death. And we already know he admitted disposing of her body, so I hope found out more about what happened in Tennessee. But it is very probable that he is a murderer, and I find it somewhat unlikely that this is the only time he's done something like that. I mean, the. The whole method is very bold, very brazen, and definitely, to me, as indicators of experience.

[Jacinda]

I think what's interesting about Junior is that what he shared with us is not evidence of Jared's guilt when it comes to Renee's case. Right. But Junior is someone who knows Jared really well and feels so sure. He feels so positive based on everything he knows, based on the way Jared talked about Memphis, based on, you know, prior crimes. Like, there's just zero doubt. Junior basically was like, you guys, you know, you should stop your investigation. Like, I know who did this. Like, he's so sure, and he's not.

[Susan]

Making the story up. I 1000% believe that. Because it's not a story that proves guilt. Like, this is not something you'd make out to prove someone's guilty. It's something he experienced. And also, there's. I mean, okay, look, it's isolated incidents, isolated events he recalls, but this is, like, years of him making jokes about him killing, about Jared killing Renee and seeing Jared's reaction and it building up over years of this. And as he says, it was a joke, but, like, it. It's kind of not a joke. At some point, you keep making jokes about your friend murdering a girl and watching their reaction. It ain't really a joke.

[Kevin]

He really wanted to go to that bank, that's for sure.

[Susan]

Yeah. When I heard the story the first time, like I said in the show, like, I was like, I don't know if I believe. Like, why are you so certain he's upset and losing it because of Renee's case. And when my map popped up where the bank of the west had moved to by 0708, I was like, okay, okay. Well, I believe this is possible now because he was taking you to the Home Depot. We also heard the episode from the source, whose existence we first learned about several episodes ago now from Kelly, who told us about a story she'd heard from the source way back when about how her friends at the sister's house had a pair of backpack and shoes and what happened when she went over there to confront the younger sister, Jamie, about it. Yeah.

[Jacinda]

And again, this is someone who has come forward and said, not by his own admission, someone who has.

[Susan]

Want to come forward. Ever. Come forward. Yeah, it's not comfortable or like, it's. It's not. Him and Junior both are people who would have sworn they'd never come forward, and yet here they are.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. I remember, Susan, when we first talking about the source and after you had found him and sort of thinking like, well, why now? Why is he coming forward now 24 years later? And that, in fact, is not the case. He, as you heard in the episode, he tried to come forward right after this all happened.

[Susan]

I also feel very confident this is not the only time that. That is not the only time. And talking. That's not the only time he's tried to come forward. There are other people we've spoken to who have talked to him over the years, and it made it clear to me that this is. This is something that has bothered him on and off for a couple decades now. And there are parts of his story that are strange and don't entirely make sense. And he himself was, like, the first to admit, like, I got no idea what that's about. I don't know what was going on there. Like, it was weird as shit. That's why I was so freaked out. Here's what happened. And again, like, it's clearly not a story he's invented to try and point guilt at someone, because that's not a story you can make up if you want to have, like, a clear explanation of someone's guilt. He just remembers what he experienced. And even though it sounds odd like that that's the reality he experienced that. That's what he saw and thought and interpreted at the time. And if parts of it are weird, he doesn't know how to explain it because he doesn't know enough to. To understand what all was going on.

[Jacinda]

So in the episode, Susan, we talk about how if the source did, in fact try to come forward and report this to Sergeant Harris, that would be a Brady violation. How 24 years later does one even go about proving that he tried to report this?

[Susan]

I mean, if it ever came up, it would be in A court of law and you'd have testimony, any documents that exist. And it would require a fact finder to weigh the evidence figure out, I mean, Sergeant Harris had a partner who was closely involved with him in his work and possibly could know more about it, but we were not able to speak to him either. So it is possible there are people out there from the law enforcement side who do know something about this we don't know. But I will also just say that, like, I can guarantee you the source did not know that a Brady violation is a big deal or that what he was telling me was one. Like, this is not a story he was crafted like he was just explaining what he did. He had no there's abs. Like it can only hurt him. It will only like admitting that he talked to cops is not something that he wanted to do. But he knew that Sergeant Harris had some involvement in this case. And when he found out, like they'd arrested two other guys, he was like, yo, yo, you should know you got the wrong ones here. And it didn't even matter.

[Jacinda]

And for a Brady violation, it also doesn't matter if. If what he is saying is true or not. Right. It's just the fact that he's presenting a different scenario.

[Susan]

What matters if it's exculpatory, immaterial, like, is there would this make a material difference? And based on everything the source told me, I am very confident that yes. If defense attorneys knew what he had to share, including things that weren't aired on the show, they would have changed their investigative tactics and looked in directions they weren't looking at the time. And yeah, it would have mattered a whole fucking lot, right?

[Jacinda]

If they had heard that there was a pair of white tennis shoes left in his garage that probably would have made a difference.

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Watch it work.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

You want to send me to Michael Thompson, who bucked the whole ab, dropped out and testified against them, and you think I'm gonna go there and convince him to recant?

[Susan]

He has created this illusion of who he is.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

I was just stunned that I would have a conversation like this with an ex gang leader.

[Susan]

I was in the hearing and I thought, oh my goodness, these girls are falling for his bullshit. I think they're gonna let this guy out.

[Unknown Male Speaker]

The world would be a much better place with this man out. It's like a light just kind of pours out of him. And I was determined to help that light get out into the world.

[Susan]

Blood Memory, a new podcast series from Love and Radio. Search for Blood Memory wherever you get your podcasts. So next week is the final episode and there will be a lot to cover then. But in advance of that, there's one issue we'll talk about now and not in the episode because quite frankly, we were not able to secure recorded interviews with some of the players involved. And that has to do with a matter we discussed early on in the season about one of the key witnesses against both Jake and Ty. And that was a guy named Jesse Howlin. He was a teenager, younger teenager, who was friends with Jake. And according to the prosecution, he was the evidence that Jake and Ty were still friends after everything and were hanging out after Renee's death. And he has a story about going to Ty's house with Jake and like Jake and Ty find like a 13 year old girl. And all this stuff that's never corroborated, never proven, but just comes from Jesse and his statements to the police. We were hoping to interview Jesse and unfortunately that did not happen. We did talk to him by messenger and asked him questions and he's willing to do that, would never get on the phone. And his position now is he insisted he had no real knowledge of anything he said. Over and over again he's like, Jake wouldn't hurt a fly. I don't believe any of that bullshit. I think he actually called him like a. A punk or something. But the important thing he said is that like, I only went to Ty's house one time, didn't even know Ty, I went to that house one time, and it was way before all this happened, way before all this was with Renee, is what he said, which goes back to what Jake has said all along, which is that after that incident where he and Renee crashed at Ty's house and Renee woke up with Ty trying to feel her, Ty and Jake were not friendly. They were. It was quite literally on site with them. They were not hanging out. They were not being friends. Jake and Ty hanging together just would not have happened after that. And Jesse Howland did not know any of this. He did not understand those dynamics. But what he told me, unprompted, he was like, why are you asking about that? That was all way before this Renee thing. It's not relevant. I'm like, well, that's. That's why it is relevant. What this also goes back to is sort of a complicated side story about something that happened in one of the preliminary hearings, where the lawyers are before the judge and they're talking about why or why not the jury should hear evidence of certain prior bad acts by tylops. Tai Lopes did have a prior record. Nothing violent really, but definitely some theft charges here and there, a number of them. And the prosecution wants to get the evidence in to explain what a bad person Ty is and make the jury, you know, more eager to convict him. The defense is trying to fight that and not allow it to come into before the court. So they're going back and forth. And there's one recent arrest on Ty's record. It was from April of 2000, so about a month before Renee's parents, where he had a stolen debit card from a man who had recently died, and he used it to go to ATMs and get money. Now, at first, the prosecution was trying to get this admitted to show, you know, Ty's a bad person. He steals from old, dying people. Let's have the jury hear what bad person he is. But the problem is this case never actually makes it to court. Ty is never convicted of it. Like, it just disappears. The prosecutor, Charles Schultz, is like, oh, you know what? I decided not to bother with that. No big deal, given everything else going on. Like, we just kind of didn't worry about that theft charge that happened right back then. But he makes a comment that he's sitting there at the table with Detective Ken Wells and they're conferring. And at some point, the defense attorney, Ty's defense attorney, hears Charles Schultz, the prosecutor say something, and he jumps up in court. This is all transcripts, mind you. So we can't see exactly how went down, but from transcripts, we know the defense attorney, like, jumps up and it's like, your honor. Your honor. Your honor, I just heard the prosecutor say something that sounds really important. Like that's. He just said that Jesse Howland was a witness to the April theft case. And the prosecutor gets up, he's like, yes, I was just talking to, you know, Tech Wells here, and Jesse Howland was a witness to this April theft thing, but we're not going to pursue that. We're not going to tell the jury about it, so don't worry about it. And it's just dropped, forgotten forever. Except this is a really fucking big deal because Jesse Howland only ever goes to Ty. Ty's house once. One time. Everyone agrees on that. He's there one time. And here we are having the prosecutor tell the judge that Jesse Howland's somehow a witness to a crime Ty committed in April, which would strongly suggest there's some exculpatory evidence there. And another Brady violation, that there is evidence that what Jesse Howland was talking about by hanging out with Jesse and Ty had nothing to do with Renee's murder.

[Jacinda]

That it's something that happened back in April.

[Susan]

In April, a month before Renee went missing, when Jake and Ty were still on friendly terms. And somehow there's a night where Jake and Jesse Howland are hanging out, and Ty apparently uses a stolen debit card to get money from ATM, which he did like 14, 15 times. So, you know, it could have been any night, but it was in April, not May. And, yeah, like, that paperwork, if found, would absolutely be a Brady violation. And it's hard to imagine from the transcripts what else could be going on here. The prosecutor is overheard by the defense attorney talking to Detective Ken Wells about how Jesse Howland's a witness to an April incident with Tyler. Anyway, that's what started me down the path of trying to find out what the hell was going on here and looking more into the theft in April that Ty was charged with but never prosecuted for. And that's what led me to the victim in that case, his daughter. Now, the victim died. That's how Ty got the debit card. But I reached out to her and talked to her about it, and she gave me a call and said, yeah, that was so weird. Like they were going to prosecute Ty for it. And the first hearing, I went there and Detective Tony Souza came up to me and said, would you mind us not pursuing this charge right now? Tai Lopes is an Important informant for us on an important major investigation, and we need him to help us with that investigation. So would you pretty please not object to us not prosecuting him for the theft right now? And she said, yeah, of course. I'm not going to get in the way of the major investigation thinking that, like, he's an informant for a drug deal and does not find out until she sees the news two months later that it was actually had to do with Renee Ramos's case. So in other words, Tai Lopes was an informant for the police for this murder. Like, he was literally working with Tony Souza. Tony Souza to help solve Renee's murder. Until at some point, Detective Souza changes in mind, decided his informant's actually a suspect, and arrests him.

[Jacinda]

We heard early on from Ty's sister and brother that he was an informant.

[Susan]

That he was happy to talk about it, that he thought he was safe. He was convinced he would never get in trouble for real for this because he'd literally been helping them solve this case.

[Jacinda]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

You know, he's witnessing an act that takes place before the murder, and it's. It's sort of moved either intentionally or not down the calendar to a time that would matter. To a time that would matter.

[Susan]

Jesse Howlin. Yeah. But I also think it's interesting that Tai Lopes be an informant on this case because, again, Jake and Ty weren't getting along. So how exactly was Ty being an informant? I think it's quite possible that even though Ty obviously couldn't save himself, couldn't, you know, stop suspicion falling on him, I think it may explain some of the investigation that was not totally clear before about how they proceeded and why, for instance, Ty's nephew, Rapi Mendoza, was never questioned for more than a couple minutes, and why he never became a suspect, despite the fact that Josh Burroughs claims he was part of the murder conspiracy.

[Jacinda]

Right. Meaning that. Not that he is a suspect or should be a suspect, but if they were going down this. This road, and Jake and Robbie are best friends and Josh names them all.

[Susan]

Then why is Robbie never seriously examined? And I think it's possible that Ty's role as informant on this case could explain that they didn't need to talk to Robbie because they're talking to his uncle about it. And I think it's likely that Ty's information he was giving to the police didn't come from Jake directly, necessarily because, again, they weren't on good terms. But what he's hearing from his nephew about what Jake is telling him, which.

[Jacinda]

Is sort of nothing.

[Susan]

Yeah. They don't get. But it's not even useful. In the end, they get nothing from him. That actually helps.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. In Ty's interrogation, I mean, he has nothing to say, he has nothing to offer.

[Susan]

He even tells them. He's like, man, I'm not even convinced Jake did that. I also think it's possible that kind of could explain why they got Tyranny. And it might not just be about Ty himself, but the fact that they were so convinced Jake did this. And when Ty failed to give them evidence about Jake, I think that may have made them suspicious of Ty, too. I think they felt or could have felt that, like, okay, well, Jake's obviously guilty, and our informant has close ties to Jake. So if our informant's not giving us real info on our suspect, they must have done it together.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. It's hard to know what they were thinking. Right? Like, but maybe. Yeah.

[Susan]

I mean, it's a convoluted mess. But also, the fact that the co defendant was a literal informant trying to solve the case for the police should have been disclosed to Jake, too. And without knowing what Ty was saying, it's hard to say if it was brighter or not. But, like, I think there's a very strong chance it was. If we had those files to show what exactly went down.

[Jacinda]

Meaning, just to spell it out, if there was paperwork showing that the credit card theft happened early in April, which there is, but that if there's some sort of paperwork showing that Jesse Howland was at Ty's house in April with Jake, then clearly not after Renee is missing. That would be a Brady violation.

[Susan]

That would be, too. But also the fact that. That Ty Lopes was an informant giving them info on Jake Silva, depending on what he said, we don't know how those conversations went down. We don't know what info was fed to the police from Ty. But if Ty was, like, passing the information about conversations he and Robbie had with Jake, they were all exculpatory. Yeah. There's possible room for a Brady violation there, too.

[Jacinda]

But again, you would have to imagine that Ty is telling his attorneys, guess what, guys? I was an informant.

[Susan]

Yeah, Right. So he didn't though. What we know from the files that he did not say that till after his sentencing. Really? After his conviction? Yeah, because the only documents we have. So we had. We had the statement. When I spoke to the victim's daughter from the theft case, she's the one who told me that, like, Detective Souza personally asked her to agree to push off the. The trial for that case to help Them so they could use Ty as an informant. So she knew. But I do not think Ty's own attorneys knew till after his conviction. Because they come up and say, then, shit, we have paperwork here showing this happen, your honor. And the judge is like, why? Why do I care? Which. Which, quite frankly, yeah, makes sense. Like, he's the informant. It's not going to help him any. But I truly believe that Ty's own attorney was not told about this till after the fact.

[Jacinda]

Or do you think Ty's own attorney didn't believe him? Like, how could Ty not tell him?

[Susan]

We don't know. All we know is that the attorney apparently did not find the paperwork proving it until after the fact, which he did and tried to present to the court. I'll back up. What we know is that Ty's public defender for the theft case, not for the murder, but for the theft case from April. She knew about it. She had the paperwork, and somehow that got to the defense attorney for the murder case after his conviction, before sentencing.

[Kevin]

Ty tells his attorney that. That he's working as an informant on that case. Doesn't she just raise her hand in court and say, your honor is. Got a problem here.

[Susan]

How's it going to help him, though? Like, they're just going to. I mean, it might make things awkward for prosecution of Jake, but it's just going to be for Ty's purposes. Doesn't really help him. They're just going to be like, oh, look, he. He was trying to mislead police about his own role in a murder.

[Jacinda]

So in that sense, the defense attorney might have known and said, this is actually going to look bad for us.

[Susan]

Like, it's possible we don't know what happened there.

[Jacinda]

We don't know.

[Susan]

But what we do know is that Jake didn't know, and Jake's attorneys didn't know, and that's the problem.

[Jacinda]

So it mattered for Jake.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Jacinda]

Yeah.

[Susan]

And also just. It shows, like, how incompetent and ridiculous the whole investigation was. Like, Detective Sousa's own informant is literally his suspect later on. Like, he, for months, thought he was trying to get his murder suspect by working with the guy that he later decided was actually the murderer.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. I mean, we also don't know, like, Sousa could have said to this woman, hey, do you mind if we don't press charges because I'm working with an informant? He could have been lying to her. And really, why would he be lying about that? Because he didn't want to say, hey, I'm working with him as a Suspect in a murder, rape case. Right.

[Susan]

Like, how would you work with him as a. If he was a suspect, by then, they should have had some sign of it, and there was none. This was, like, in June or July. It's early.

[Jacinda]

Sometimes they just watch for a while because they. You know, they're watching to see if someone makes a mistake.

[Kevin]

I think it's just another example of there are lots of blind spots because nobody will turn over the files.

[Susan]

Yeah, true. Yeah. Again, Like, Brady violations are hard to discover when an agency is not required to hand over their files, which is the case in California.

[Jacinda]

They can if they want to, but they're not required to.

[Susan]

They can, but they're allowed to choose not to.

[Jacinda]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

The fact of the matter is, most people don't like you, too.

[Susan]

I don't see them giving files to you, Kevin.

[Kevin]

I think I. You know, maybe.

[Susan]

You'Re welcome to try. Please be our guest.

[Kevin]

Put my charm on.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. So charming.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Susan]

That.

[Jacinda]

You know, a lot of people write in about your charm, but we didn't want to, like, feed your ego, so.

[Kevin]

We'Ve been hiding those people around the office find me charming, too.

[Susan]

Yeah, well, unfortunately, the charm has not been enough to get files from the Manteca police or from Stanislaus county who would not give us records about Jared Conway's conviction there. All the files we have from the court, and the court doesn't keep transcripts of sentencing, so they're pretty limited.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. It feels like we're always hitting roadblocks with records. It's not unique to California or Manteca. It happens everywhere. Some places it's easier than others. I do want to make something clear, though. I don't think, you know, I don't think we send a request into Manteca Police department, for example, and they looked at our requests and were like, oh, we shouldn't give them these files because this case is, like, shady or something. It's just a blanket denial. They're just denying every request that comes in.

[Susan]

Yeah. There's no conspiracy behind it. There's no plan. It's just, like, they don't have to gonna.

[Kevin]

Yeah, no, that's. That's a fair point. Everyone should understand, because, I mean, it's happened to us a lot. It certainly happened a great deal in California.

[Jacinda]

Yeah, it's just a. It's just the response.

[Susan]

Anyway, that is all for the last sidebar of the season. And next week is the last and final episod. Well, no, it's the last episode, but not the final one. We know how this goes.

[Jacinda]

Yeah. You know, we'll be back. And we are planning to come back as we get more information and learnings. We will definitely be back. And we're planning a few special episodes in the coming months, too.

[Susan]

Yeah. So stay tuned for next Monday. Yeah.

[Jacinda]

What are we gonna do, guys? We don't talk to each other every day. Susan, you're silent. That's the first time Susan has had nothing to say, ever.

[Susan]

Sorry. I had a stroke and a seizure and I have amnesia and forgot who y' all were.

[Kevin]

Yeah, it's a lot what it'll be like. Yeah.

[Susan]

I'm sorry. That's a great excuse. That's like the. Like a top 10 all time. Excuse me.

[Jacinda]

It is pretty good.

[Kevin]

It's. It's absolutely, breathtakingly fantastic. I mean, I'm gonna use that next time I need to cancel something.

[Jacinda]

I'm gonna use it tomorrow when I don't show up for work.

[Susan]

All right, well, we'll be back Monday with final episode. See you then. Foreign.

[Jacinda]

You've been listening to Proof Sidebar, a podcast by Red Marble Media in association with Glass Box Media. Send us your questions and comments@proof, crimepod Gmail.com. follow us everywhere with the handle at Proof crimepod and on our website, proofcrimepod.com regular episodes drop on Mondays and you can find sidebars on Thursdays. Thanks so much for listening.