Jacinda (2:21)

The city of Manteca Police Department received your emailed letter requesting that we reexamine the matter regarding the tragic loss of your daughter, Renee Ramis, following a comprehensive reexamination of the case by the Manteca Police Department Investigations Unit sergeant and consultations with the San Joaquin County District Attorney's office, along with the original detective assigned to the case, Tony Souza, who is currently an investigator for the Stanislaus county district attorney's office, Bureau of investigations. We have every confidence in the accuracy of our investigation and the prosecution of the individuals implicated in this matter. Our diligent efforts have led to the rightful conviction of those responsible for Renee's untimely death. Though we are absolutely sympathetic to your concerns, it is imperative to emphasize that our commitment lies in adhering to the factual evidence rather than conjecture or speculation alone. As law enforcement professionals, our duty is to uphold the integrity of the judicial and criminal process by basing our actions on verifiable facts.

Susan (3:23)

So, yeah, basically, in two days, the Manteca police department did a comprehensive re examination of the case, which apparently consisted of consulting with detective Tony Souza and then concluding that they have no doubts they did everything correctly in this case.

Hank (3:39)

I mean, I was gonna say it took us how many years and months to fully reinvestigate this case, and they were able to do it in two days, so.

Susan (3:50)

And they're very confident that everything was on the up and up. That's apparently the position they're taking now. And of course, it's the victim's mother, so they're being sympathetic. But to me, the tone is like, don't listen to the lies you're being fed. Of course, we did everything right. We believe in truth and accuracy, and you're being fed bullshit by someone with an agenda.

Jacinda (4:11)

One of the things that stood out to me, I remember the sort of disappointment I had when you all first showed me the letter when it first came in, Is that this is the victim's mother who has had a change of heart through the process of this season of the show. I think it's very powerful when you get the sort of loved one of the victim in a murder case to start saying, I don't think that the people who were convicted of this crime are actually guilty. And the fact that she's, you know, sort of joined forces with. With Mandy, with Ty's daughter, trying to get answers is, you know, it's emotionally moving, but it's a powerful statement to police. Like, we think something went wrong here. It takes a lot to get a family member to say there's something wrong with this murder conviction. So I think that was disappointing to me.

Susan (4:57)

And even if you felt confident in your case, you'd think if you got a little like that, you at least step back and say, I want to understand why she feels that way. Like, something must made her think this. So, like, we need to at least have a vague grasp of why there might be problems in this case, even if we don't ultimately agree. Right.

Hank (5:14)

Like saying we stand by our investigation and we think it concluded in the right way, but we'd like to talk to you and find out what, you know, what you're thinking and why. I mean, they couldn't even have listened to the podcasts in that amount of time, Right? So what, did they reinvestigate or what to. They don't even know what the problems are.

Susan (5:35)

They called Sousa, and he said, oh, it was all good, and that was it. That's my guess, anyway. Now, interestingly, Tony Souza, the detective who investigated this case, is now working at the DA's office over in Stanislaus county to the south. So, you know, he's at the agency that has all the files on Jared Conway that we were denied access to as well.

Jacinda (5:55)

It's. You know, I understand the police perspective in the sense that, you know, they must get letters all the time and people saying that, you know, my family member was wrongfully convicted. The fact that it's the victim's family, I think stands out. But, you know, it'd be nice if. If one of the people sort of involved in the case could just take an honest look at it. I don't think that we go knocking on everyone's door. Right. There are a lot of cases that people submit to us, and a lot of cases that two of you sort of vet, and then we talk about them. And, you know, if after all that investigation, they don't want to take a look at it, that's. That's disappointing because there's certainly some questions there at the very least.

Susan (6:34)

So that was the response from the police department to the request from both Mandy and Donna to review all the files, given that the case, you know, is long over. However, the Mantequis department did agree to give Donna the documents that they were required to produce under California law. So they recently completed that production and handed over several hundred pages of documents, which is fantastic. And we're still going through those materials now, and there is some interesting new information in there that we plan to follow up on. Unfortunately, most of the new documents, the ones we've never seen before, were redacted, apparently, because they did not include witness statements. So we do know for sure now there are at least a couple dozen police reports that we've never seen, but we still don't know exactly what they're about. So we'll be looking at that further. There's one thing in those files, though, that we did want to highlight now, and that's the records that mpd gave Donna Ramos include inventory sheets showing chain of custody logs for various pieces of evidence in the case, including chain of custody logs for Renee's clothing, like her jeans, shirt, bra, underwear. These are Items that, in 2017, when Jake's attorney requested testing of those items, the manteca police department responded that they were lost, couldn't find them, can't be tested. And the chain of custody logs show that the police department did, in fact, lose track of these items. Their inventory records were wrong and said that these items were in possession of manteca police, which wasn't accurate. We found them in the courthouse. That's where they were. So for those items, Manteca police is right that they had lost the items, lost track of them with their own records. But there were also inventory records for Renee's necklaces, Three hemp necklaces she was wearing when she died, as well as some of the hairs at the crime scene. And the chain of custody logs for those items record that they were being held at the courthouse, which is. Right. That's exactly where they were. The necklaces and the hairs were never actually lost because manteca police's own inventory records told them exactly where they were all along. But for some reason, they told Jake's attorney in 2017 that those items were gone, too, and couldn't be found. Finding that was frustrating, Especially because when I saw it, it was kind of a gut punch for me, For Jake, knowing that they could have been tested seven years ago, those necklaces could have been. Their location was known. They were findable right there in black and white. They could have been tested seven years ago and could have had an answer back then. But antika police department instead thought they were missing. I guess they never checked their own records.

Hank (9:12)

Yeah, it's heartbreaking. The custody lodge says clearly that those items are at the courthouse. And they could have. Which is true because we found them there. And they could have been tested seven years ago. That seven years he's been sitting in prison waiting for testing on these. And it could have been done all along. Susan, can you. Just to help clarify things, I. I think it's a little bit confusing about how the records request was denied, but yet they gave Donna some material. So what's the difference between what was denied and what they turned over?

Susan (9:46)

So even before the season started, Donna Ramos signed a letter requesting, under California law, as the victim's representative, as Renee's representative, production of documents that are not available to the general public, not available to defendants, even under records Requests like, they're not available under California's record request law, except for victims and representatives who are entitled to them. At the time, the Antique Police Department denied the request. And in the letter that Mandy and Donna sent, Donna renewed that request and pointed out the, you know, exact parts of California law that mandated production of them. At that point, the Manteca police did comply and produce the witness statements and witness names that was in their computer file. Now, they didn't produce things like, know, the. The surveillance tapes, which is, you know, the holy grail for me in this case, because those are not witness statements. So we still don't even know if those exist, although chain of custody logs suggest they do. But in terms of like, written statements that are on their. At least the ones on their online file or at least on. On their computer records, they did hand those over, most of which we already had from discovery from the defense way back then. But not all of them.

Hank (10:54)

Is this some new material? But again, not everything.

Susan (10:58)

Yeah. And the most. For me, the most interesting part was seeing all the pages that were redacted, which presumably were lawfully redacted. If they weren't witness statements, then California law did not mandate disclosure to Donna. But we can tell from the header and the information of when those reports are filed. They aren't ones in the defense file. So there's some, at least, you know, maybe a dozen or two reports there that I'm very curious about what they would contain.

Hank (11:23)

A dozen or two reports that, from what we know, were not given to the defense.

Britt (11:29)

Yeah.

Susan (11:29)

And the bulk of those actually appear to have been after the arrest of Jake and Ray and Ty. So they might just be like internal reports from Susan Wells or things to do with like, evidence testing. It's not clear, but obviously I'm curious.

Hank (11:44)

There could be another. Another Brady violation in some of those documents. Yeah, you never know. But again, under California law, they also have the right to turn over everything. There's nothing preventing them from turning it over. They just don't have to. Is that correct?

Susan (12:02)

Correct. This summer, when Jacinda and I were investigating out in the field, we. We basically both lived in Quint's clothes.

Hank (12:19)

It is so true. I think everything I packed came from Quint's.

Susan (12:24)

Luckily, I wear color and you don't, so we didn't end up being twinsies, which would've been awkward, but, you know.

Hank (12:28)

Oh, you don't wanna be twinsies with me, Susan.

Susan (12:31)

I prefer to have colors other than grayscale. Well, it's.

Hank (12:33)

Cause you have quints. Then cause they have both black stuff for me and colorful stuff for you.

Susan (12:38)

The problem is it is now cold as heck and we need new clothes to go out in the field or I'm not going.

Hank (12:45)

Well, go back to Quint's. I just ordered some cashmere sweaters that are super warm and super comfortable.

Susan (12:51)

That's funny because I'm actually literally about to buy the Mongolian cashmere sweatshirt.

Hank (12:54)

You should totally do that. I splurged and I got my husband the Mongolian cashmere pullover hoodie, which is really nice.

Susan (13:01)

And you're going to steal it, I'm sure.

Hank (13:03)

I was going to say I'm going to start wearing it for myself.

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Susan (13:22)

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Susan (13:47)

So we're obviously in the middle of the podcast season now. Things get hectic and sometimes trying to figure out and shop for dinner is the bane of my existence.

Hank (13:57)

I think shopping and planning for dinner is the bane of your existence on any day. But yes, especially, especially during the middle of our podcast season.

Susan (14:05)

I do not have the emotional bandwidth or labor to be able to plan out healthy meals. Which is why Green Chef is amazing.

Hank (14:11)

I agree. If it wasn't for Green Chef, I don't think we'd be eating dinner at night.

Susan (14:14)

We would not have eaten last night. But we had salmon and couscous and it was hands down the best couscous I've ever had in my life.

Hank (14:21)

It's funny because I had the same one yesterday and it was really good. It was so good. So if you're like us and finding time to make meals and planning is a nuisance or you just want to eat healthy, try Green Chef.

Susan (14:35)

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Hank (15:13)

We've also got another update for you. As you heard in the last episode, Jake was trying to find an attorney to represent him and seek DNA testing of that newfound evidence at the courthouse. After the last episode aired, we had dozens of lawyers actually from around the country write in and we wanted to thank everyone for the overwhelming show of support.

Susan (15:38)

The good news is that Jake Silva is now represented by counsel and we spoke to them about where they stand in this case.

Audrey McGinn (15:44)

Now, my name is Audrey McGinn, I'm a senior staff attorney at an organization called the Innocence center and I am lead council counsel currently for Jake Silva.

Lauren Barbosa Finley (15:55)

And I'm Lauren Barbosa Finley. I am a staff attorney at the Northern California Innocence Project and we're happy to be looking into Jake's case.

Susan (16:06)

So after we finished our season, both the Innocence center and the Northern California Innocence Project ended up taking on Jake's case and they now represent him for upcoming fingers crossed court proceedings. Guys, what, what's the future look like there for Jake?

Audrey McGinn (16:24)

We two weeks ago we filed a request for renewed order for post conviction DNA testing. As you guys mentioned in the podcast, there were some items of evidence that were allegedly lost but now found. So we are asking the court to send those to the lab and do the testing. So we are hoping to get some really great results on the hemp necklaces that you found in the exhibits room, some of her clothing, and maybe even the hairs that were found near her body.

Susan (16:52)

And have you heard back at all from the DA's office?

Audrey McGinn (16:56)

Not yet. We have not heard anything yet. We just filed the motion, it was delivered to their office. So I'm assuming that they are trying to figure out what to do with us now.

Susan (17:06)

And it mostly parallels the previous motion that was filed and not opposed. So I mean, we're hopeful at least. I don't know how y' all feel that there won't be any opposition this time around.

Audrey McGinn (17:18)

That was exactly our thought and exactly what I put in the motion that this was unopposed. Previously, this testing was ordered on these specific items previously. The only reason why they weren't tested is because they couldn't be located. Now that they've been located, let's just continue with what was previously ordered. So we're hoping for very little kind of roadblocks from the district attorney's office or from the court. Of course, anything can happen, but we're just requesting for what was previously ordered to continue.

Susan (17:45)

And, Lauren, do you guys have a guess on, like, the timeline there? How long do you think this will take for the court to actually order testing?

Lauren Barbosa Finley (17:53)

I think it's kind of hard to say always how long the court will take to do anything, and it's a little bit of a fool's errand, especially with the way that the courts can always extend their own time or anything like that. But like you said, we are hopeful that there aren't too many roadblocks, that this will not take forever to get the court to agree to something that was already agreed to previously.

Susan (18:18)

And I know Jake is ecstatic that things are moving along. Audrey, we're just talking about how many exclamation points were in Jake's email to the news that the filing had been made.

Audrey McGinn (18:27)

He was just ecstatic, and I was just thrilled to tell him that we, you know, are moving right along with the case and that Lauren and I are, you know, our organizations have worked together so seamlessly in the past to help people. We're really excited to be working with them and, you know, doing this together to help him. He's just, I think, really thrilled.

Lauren Barbosa Finley (18:51)

Yes. And NCIP is always very excited to partner with the folks down at tic, and we've started really combing through all of the records that we have, and it's a lot that we have to work with, so. And there's a lot that you've uncovered. Yes. And there's a lot that you've uncovered in the podcast also. So really, just covering all of the bases has been what we're focused on.

Susan (19:21)

Well, I am thrilled to take now as counsel and that you guys are now on the case. I, I, I'm aware that courts can move at court speed, and there's no way.

Audrey McGinn (19:29)

Yeah.

Susan (19:30)

But I am optimistic a little. I'll maintain optimism, tell otherwise that things can move along. Because there shouldn't be a reason for delay here. There shouldn't be any reason for more than the usual court meandering.

Audrey McGinn (19:41)

Totally. And there's no official deadline to when the courts have to respond. But my plan is, you know, within after 60 days, if we still don't hear anything, to just request an audience with the court to see where they are in the process and just kind of keep insisting that we aren't going anywhere and that we're we really need this evidence to be tested. It's high time. It should have been done eight years ago. It's just bonkers to me that it was in the courthouse and nobody even thought to look there.

Susan (20:10)

Yeah. And speaking of which, the new documents we recently received showed that for at least the hairs and the hip necklaces, it doesn't seem as if they were ever missing at all.

Audrey McGinn (20:19)

Wild. I mean, I know previous counsel compelled. I mean, we can't. We're not allowed to go into the courthouse and just demand to see stuff without reason or to go looking for stuff ourselves. Obviously, we want to avoid any contamination for any cases, not just our own. And then previous counsel asked them to look, and then I don't know what happened.

Susan (20:38)

Well, whatever it was, they're found now. They're there for testing. And, I mean, DNA is always a crapshoot, but, like, if you had to choose evidence that is, you know, in good shape, this is. This would be it. Like, this is. We saw it. We knew, like, this is what you hope for. Yeah.

Audrey McGinn (20:55)

I mean, it seems like they were preserved adequately, and we have a really good shot of getting some results from these items and really, really excited about it. I mean, we're so thankful for the work that you did and kind of teeing this up for us to be able to litigate it so quickly, It's. It's really exciting.

Susan (21:16)

Do y' all usually file motions and cases that quick after taking them on?

Audrey McGinn (21:20)

No, not. Not at all.

Lauren Barbosa Finley (21:26)

No.

Audrey McGinn (21:27)

I mean, Lauren and I have been doing this for a long time, and it just sometimes takes years to be able to even get appellate documents. I mean, these things. Now, after somebody is convicted, nobody has any sense of urgency at all, because there are no constitutional guarantees to, like, a speedy anything after somebody is convicted. And so people kind of move at a snail's pace. And you guys really just. I mean, again, like, just teed this up perfectly for us to be able to, like, immediately, you know, file something on Jake's behalf and try to get this ball rolling again for him.

Susan (22:05)

Well, I wish we had a more precise timeline for listeners, but we will be here every step of the way, and I. I don't think it's unreasonable that we could have some significant action by the end of the year.

Audrey McGinn (22:15)

Well, getting the court to move along to. To get the DNA to the lab is one thing, and then labs.

Susan (22:21)

Yeah, yeah, it's a whole new thing, but that's a whole different ball game.

Audrey McGinn (22:24)

On how fast we can get the lab to actually do the Testing, I mean, expedited testing, I think even if we do that is at six months. But BODE does good work. We've had good results with them in the past, and that's where we're hoping the, the evidence will be sent. And we had an exoneration with them last year, and so hopefully that will all kind of cue it up to have some credibility to speed things along.

Lauren Barbosa Finley (22:48)

We also just want to give a huge shout out to the listeners and really say thank you for how engaged they've been and how much they've cared about Jake and Jake's case and for all of the information that they've been willing to pass on to the Proof Podcast team. We also wanted to just continue to extend the that offer. If you have any information, no matter if you think it's small or anything that you think could possibly help or lead us down a fruitful path for Jake, we would love to hear any of that. You can still extend that information to the Proof Podcast team or you can reach out to us directly if you want to email us. My email is Lauren L A u r Y n dot BARBOSA Findley B A r B O S A F I n D L E Y C U edu and Audrey will drop her email also, in case you would like to reach out.

Audrey McGinn (23:53)

Yeah, I work at the Innocence center and my email is Audrey A u D r U I H E I N N O C E n c e center.org and we would love to hear from you if you have any additional information, people who you think we should speak to. We really are excited about this case and ready to do everything we can to get to the truth.

Susan (24:17)

Well, for now, that's all. But things are moving in the case and as you heard, we can't say when exactly, but you know, as these things go, in the nearest future, we'll hopefully have more updates for you. So stay tuned and we'll be back with more updates as they happen. Thanks for joining us, guys. Talk to you later.

Audrey McGinn (24:36)

Thank you so much.

Lauren Barbosa Finley (24:37)

Thanks, Susan.

Hank (24:39)

As you heard, it's hard to predict timelines when it comes to these kinds of proceedings, but we have reason to hope that DNA testing will be done sooner rather than later. And we'll be back to keep you updated on all the progress in the case. Also, as you heard Jake's attorneys mention, the investigation isn't over. So if you have any information about this case, no matter how small you think it may be, please give us a call or send us an email. As you heard on the show, many of the most important tips we got came from people who didn't think what they knew was that important at all.

Susan (25:12)

Our investigation continues. Dick's attorneys will continue their work and we'll be back when there's more to share.

Jacinda (25:19)

I think all you can ask for when you take on one of these wrongful conviction cases is that you have more hope at the end of it, at the end of the investigation, than at the beginning. And it feels like for the first time in a long time, maybe there's some hope for Jake.

Susan (25:35)

There's a lot of hope. I mean, shoot, if I could get very good DNA evidence for testing in every case I work on that, I'd like that. So Jake's doing better than a lot of cases I've worked on and I'm really hopeful for him.

Jacinda (25:48)

Yeah, it's closer to hopefully being out than he was the day that this season started, certainly.

Hank (25:56)

Yeah, absolutely.

Susan (25:58)

And also for any listeners out there in San Joaquin county, the case is now being reopened. It's been filed to retest the evidence. These are your officials that are handling it. And if you want to reach out to them and ask them take this seriously and ask them to do their diligence and reinvestigating, please go ahead and do so because this is not going away and they need to know that people know what happened here and they care.

Jacinda (26:23)

And if you're sitting on some information that you've had for 20 plus years now and for whatever reason you couldn't come forward or you were scared to come forward, or there are lots of reasons you couldn't. Now is another chance to rewrite this story, to let the truth come out. So please don't make the same mistake again.

Susan (26:43)

Yeah. So that's all for now and move back later, hopefully with good news for Jake.

Hank (26:58)

You've been listening to Proof Sidebar, a podcast by Red Marble Media in association with Glassbox Media. Send us your questions and comments@proofcrimepodmail.com Follow us everywhere with the handle at Proof Proof Crime Pod and on our website proofcrimepod.com thanks so much for listening.

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