Russian Roulette | Ep. 19 - Two Years Later

Summary

Proof: A True Crime Podcast

Episode 19 – Russian Roulette | Two Years Later
Release Date: December 9, 2024
Podcast by: Red Marble Media

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Overview

This episode is a live recording from the Rome International Film Festival, bringing together hosts and exonerees from Season 1, Lee Clark and Josh Cain, for a two-year post-exoneration reflection. It explores the difficult realities faced after wrongful conviction, the ongoing fight for support and compensation, and the power of community in helping rebuild lives. The discussion also connects to ongoing investigations into other wrongful convictions, notably Season 2’s Jake Silva, and highlights the challenges and small victories in the broader movement for justice reform.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reflections on Exoneration: Life After Release

[05:01–15:00]

• The Shock and Struggle of Reentry: Both Lee and Josh describe how difficult it was to reenter society after 25 years in prison.
  • Lee Clark: “When I walked out, I wasn’t expecting things to be as difficult as they were... All the excitement is with me, that stopped being released. There’s nothing like that. I’m still riding that cloud today... But eventually I had to come down to earth though, and check out the terrain and see what was really around me. And looking around, it was rough.” [05:26]
• Technology Gap: Learning to use smartphones, social media, and even hotel room keys posed unexpected hurdles.
  • Lee: “You give me a phone. You just gave me something that might as well be a bomb.” [06:13]
  • Josh: “You know where my room key’s at right now? It’s in the room. I just realized I don’t even have him.” [09:44]
• No Support System: Unlike parolees, exonerees get no government assistance—no ID, no work history, no counseling.
  • “They weren’t out on parole. They were wrongfully convicted... They had no work experience. You show up someplace. What have you been doing the last 25 years? ‘I was wrongfully convicted of murder.’” – Susan Jacinda [09:04]

2. Community and Unexpected Help

[11:53–13:01]

• The Power of Strangers: Good Samaritans offered help, like providing jobs and a place to live, demonstrating community impact.

3. Employment & Daily Life

[16:01–27:12]

• Lee’s Lawn Care Business: Lee recounts starting a landscaping/lawn care business and getting his first break through a local who was moved by his story.
  • “I started me a landscaping business, a lawn care business, and I had the biggest ace in the hole right here of my dad. 45 years in tree business. Can’t go wrong with that.” – Lee Clark [16:30]
• Gradual Progress: Both Lee and Josh emphasize that life remains a struggle but slowly feels more manageable.
  • “It’s a daily struggle. ... I mean, you build up to everything. It’s a slow process with everything except the time. That’s one thing I’ve noticed. The time just flies.” – Lee Clark [24:19]
• Josh’s First Driver’s License and Employment: Josh discusses finally getting his first license and learning daily logistics all over again.
  • “Josh did not have his driver’s license when he was sent to prison, so he never had it. So he got his first driver’s license ever just a few months ago.” – Leigh Ann [26:39]

4. The Fight for Compensation

[19:18–23:29]

• Georgia’s Flawed System: Unlike many states, Georgia has no comprehensive compensation law for exonerees. Each case demands personal political sponsorship, which isn't always attainable.
  • “I want you to know, ma’am, that I’m thankful to you [Rep. Katie Dempsey] for everything that you’ve done, everything you’re continuing to do.” – Lee Clark [20:06]
• Failed Legislative Battles: Despite heroic advocacy from local politicians, the state senate blocked recent compensation bills.
  • “She did this wonderful job and proposed this bill... and it was voted down.” – Susan Jacinda [22:43]
• Contrast with Other States: Michigan, for example, quickly compensated exonerated individuals such as Jeff Titus.

5. How the Case Was Solved: Luck, Persistence, and Human Connection

[29:33–41:31]

• Key Witness Recantations: Angela Bruce’s recantation and the discovery that Charlie’s testimony was misinterpreted were pivotal.
  • “I remember that she stopped looking at us... she looked at the recorders as she was actually talking to them and said, ‘I’m sorry.’” – Kevin [30:55]
  • Charlie, the deaf witness, never actually corroborated the state’s case; his story had been dramatically misrepresented.
  • “He was talking about a totally different event that happened years before... but Mike was able to talk to him. And Charlie was so confident, like, once he could actually talk and be heard, he was like, 'No, that’s not what happened.'” – Kevin [36:49]
• Importance of Serendipity: The right witnesses, a dedicated volunteer interpreter, and fortuitous timing allowed for breakthroughs.
  • “You don’t just need a lot of hard work, you need a lot of good fortune. It has to sort of fall into place.” – Susan Jacinda [37:29]
  • “You need good fortune and you need people who work hard.” – Susan Jacinda [40:38]

6. Current Status and Ongoing Advocacy

[41:52–46:59]

• Season 2 Update (“Jake Silva Case”): Key evidence was found and is now being tested for DNA. Awareness from listeners boosts his chances.
• Message to Awaiting Prisoners: Lee and Josh offer advice and hope to Jake and others still fighting for exoneration.
  • “Just always know this. You didn’t do it. ... if you know you didn’t do it, just know you didn’t do it, and you will be venerated.” – Josh Cain [45:00]
  • “Stay strong, man, and know that these ladies out here, out here fighting for you.” – Lee Clark [45:14]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On adjustment:

  • “You give me a phone. You just gave me something that might as well be a bomb because I’m looking at that thing like it’s getting ready to go off.” – Lee Clark [06:13]

• The reality of release:

  • “They had no work experience. You show up someplace. What have you been doing the last 25 years? ‘I was wrongfully convicted of murder.’ Yeah, sure you were.” – Susan Jacinda [09:04]

• On the pain of flawed justice:

  • “What was done to him [Charlie], the way he was used, that’s just straight wrong. That’s just evil at its core right there. Use somebody with a disability like that... I do, you know, I don’t understand that. I won’t understand that.” – Lee Clark [36:49]

• On rebuilding:

  • “It’s a daily struggle… you build up to everything. It’s a slow process with everything except the time. That’s one thing I’ve noticed. The time just flies.” – Lee Clark [24:19]

• On community impact:

  • “Someone reached out to us several months ago, a man from Georgia who had listened to the podcast... he said, hey, I listened to the podcast. It really touched my heart. And I own a hotel, and I’d love to have Josh come live at the hotel and help him get work.” – Leigh Ann Cook [11:53]

• Encouragement to support:

  • “The biggest thing I think could be a help is write to them, the Senate… just reach out and write them. I encourage them, just reach out and write them… maybe some phone calls.” – Lee Clark [58:34]

• On hope and loss:

  • “Hope is very, very dangerous because it will crush you.” – Jake Silva (relayed by Leigh Ann Cook) [44:43]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:40: Moderator (Leigh Ann Cook) introduces hosts, purpose, and audience energy.
• 05:01: Lee describes reentry shock, struggle with daily functioning.
• 09:03: Hosts discuss lack of post-exoneration support/benefits.
• 16:01: Lee recounts starting a landscaping business.
• 19:18: Exonerees’ ongoing battle for compensation in Georgia.
• 29:33: Discussion of how key witness recantations overturned the case.
• 30:55: Emotional recounting of Angela Bruce’s apology on tape.
• 34:26: Tracking and clearing “Charlie,” the deaf witness, with help from interpreter Mike Burton.
• 41:52: Update on Jake Silva case and call for continued advocacy.
• 45:00: Lee and Josh give hope to current exoneree Jake Silva.
• 48:02: Audience member (Rep. Katie Dempsey) explains Georgia’s difficult path to compensation.
• 52:59: Reflection on the importance of peer support among exonerees.

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Calls to Action and How to Help

• For Listeners/Community:
  • Hire Lee’s landscaping business; refer work to Josh and Lee.
  • Offer practical help: e.g., website design, job referrals.
  • Contact Georgia legislators to support the compensation bill for exonerees.
• For Reform Advocates:
  • Raise public awareness; amplify their stories.
  • Advocate for legislative changes and support networks for exonerees.

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Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation blends humor, candor, sorrow, and resilience. The lived experiences of Lee and Josh illuminate both the trauma of wrongful conviction and the determination to build a new life, supported by loving families and communities. While legislative inaction is frustrating, the overall message is one of hope through solidarity, small victories, and relentless truth-telling.

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For more, visit proofcrimepod.com and follow @proofcrimepod on all platforms. For case tips or questions, email [e-mail].

Transcript

[Josh Cain]

Hey, Sal. Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy.

[Susan Jacinda]

Too easy.

[Josh Cain]

Think something's up? You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a.

[Susan Jacinda]

Great car at a great price, and.

[Kevin]

It got delivered the next day.

[Josh Cain]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Buy your car today on Carvana.

[Katie Dempsey]

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[Leigh Ann Cook]

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[Katie Dempsey]

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[Kevin]

In season one of Proof, we covered the story of Lee Clark and Joshua Cain's story who were wrongly convicted of the 1996 murder of their friend Brian Bolling. It has now been almost exactly two years since Lee and Josh were exonerated and released from prison. Recently, Kevin Jacinda and I were back in Rome, Georgia, this time for the annual Rome Film Festival, which is where we recorded a live podcast episode with Josh and Lee to talk about what life has been like since their release. Proof is a Red Marble media production in association with Glassbox Media.

[Lee Clark]

Hello.

[Moderator]

Hello, everybody.

[Lee Clark]

Woo.

[Moderator]

Come on in and have a seat. My name is Leigh Ann Cook and I'm the executive director of the Rome International Film Festival. And I am here to tell you that having followed podcasts now for about three years, this is definitely my favorite. Thank you for being here. Whether you're a patron or whether you bought a ticket for this or whether you just showed up and skived in, I don't care. Proof Podcast, to me, represents people fighting for people that need a friend and need an advocate. And when you think about what they have done and continue to do, it's quite amazing. They are changing lives and they are righting wrongs and they are fixing things that have been wrong for a long time. We want to support them, don't we? So we keep inviting them back and back to back. So I am not going to say anything else. I'm going to let them talk. We sure are glad y' all are.

[Kevin]

Here and up to you. Thanks everyone for Being here. And thanks to the Rome Film Festival for having us again. It's great. Back in Rome. Well, find a similar case with back sooner. We're here today with Leigh Clark and Josh Story. We also have in the audience Joey Watkins and Mitchum Reeves, who I've worked on in previous podcasts. So, basically, three years ago almost to the day, we were down here for our first joint trip with all of us to investigate. And it's amazing that we're here now with them on stage, and they've been out for almost two years now.

[Susan Jacinda]

Two years. December 8th.

[Kevin]

It was Joey who introduced me to Lee, but even when we started, I told him, this is the long haul. Whatever happens, it's going to be a while before we can get anywhere, because these things take time. And of course, a year later, they're back home, proving me a liar. Very glad to be wrong.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Season one of Proof wrapped. And literally the same day or the next day, we received an email from Luke Martin, who's an attorney here in Rome, saying, I've listened to your podcast. I think I can help, and I would love to represent Josh. And so we connected them, and he did some amazing things, and it's a large part of why they walked out just a few months later.

[Susan Jacinda]

Yeah, Luke's not here, but his office is just up the street. And without Luke Martin, these guys would not be sitting out. I think we all did our part, but Luke did an exceptional job sort of working the legal angles to make it happen.

[Kevin]

And I've got to be honest, I mean, if you heard the podcast, you know, the case against them was deeply flawed, and there were a lot of problems we uncovered, and the evidence of how flawed it was was pretty ample and well supported. And despite all that, if this had had to go the legal route, if they'd had to go through litigation, go through the usual channels and do filings and pursue them, it doesn't matter how strong your case is. It would have taken years. We probably would be here for appeals right now if that's what had happened. But instead, we're here, they're home, and they're a little ways further along, building their lives.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

The first year was. Well, we can ask you guys, Lee. The first year, I know when you were still in prison and we were talking about what you dreamed to do or what you were most looking forward to was one thing. And the reality of what it is to walk out of prison after 25 years is something very different. Can you tell us what the reality really was for you when you came out.

[Lee Clark]

Well, when I walked out, I wasn't expecting things to be as difficult as they were. I mean, I was expected to be difficult. I was kind of prepared for it a little bit, but I didn't let it sink in fully. My dad had been trying to prepare me for it for years. He'd been telling me, he said, look, he said, you're coming out here. He said, this is rough out here. He said, get yourself ready, get your mind right. So I did my best with it wise in there. Did everything I could do to forward myself, to get myself in a good position anyways. I mean, got my GED wise in there and stuff. I don't know. I got out though, and I walked out in here into it, and when I first get out, all the excitement is with me that stopped being released. There's nothing like that. I'm still riding that cloud today. I'll ride that cloud today I die. But eventually I had to come down to earth, though, and check out the terrain and see what was really around me. And looking around, it was rough. I mean, it's been rough, but it's getting a lot better for me now, I'll say that. But it was rough for me the first year, walking out in here, not knowing how anything works. The phones, I'm lost on that. You give me a phone. You just gave me something that might well be a bomb because I'm looking at that thing like it's getting ready to go off. I don't know what to do with it. I've got. I take a call, Facebook. You talking about posting something? Nah, can't go there. But yes, it's just been difficult with that stuff, getting adjusted to it. I mean, it's funny talking about it. And it's funny sitting there trying to figure it out too. I mean, he's sitting there laughing the whole time. He's trying to figure it out. Yeah, I mean, I'm laughing at myself.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

I remember the first night you and Josh, we got rooms at the Hawthorne and gave him room keys and they were like, what do I do with this car? Like, how is this a key? How does this open a door?

[Kevin]

I remember talking to you on the phone, you know, back when we're doing the podcast over the years and talk about what would happen if you ever did come home. And. And I remember you were very confident you would say, you know, like, I'd try and tell you, like, look, when you come home, it's gonna be hard. And I remember you telling me one time, you're like, what I've been through in here ain't nothing hard compared to that. And I was like, nope, that's true. I know. That's very true. But it's a different kind of heart out here.

[Lee Clark]

Oh, yeah, it is. It's entirely different. I mean, yeah, the stuff I went through in there, I mean, yeah, I can face anything in this world now. But that being said, that don't make this easy. Don't make it easy at all.

[Kevin]

Survival in there is a different skill set.

[Lee Clark]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's been hard at every corner. I mean, I've been lucky, though. I've had a lot of great support system around me. These wonderful people.

[Susan Jacinda]

One of the unique things about the case for these guys is Susan Jacinda and I met on a case for a man named Jeff Titus who was wrongfully convicted in Michigan. And Jeff was. Actually got out a few months after these guys did, which was fantastic. And Jacinda and I were just out in Michigan and visited him. But when Jeff went In, he was 50 years old, right? Like, he had had a life on the outside. He had had a job. He understood about all of these things. These guys went in. They were 18, as I remember it. They were the youngest people serving life in the Georgia prison system at the time. And I know they had some experience on the outside, but you guys didn't have full adult lives, and you walk out, and these guys were basically. They had no support.

[Josh Cain]

Right.

[Susan Jacinda]

They weren't out on parole. They were wrongfully convicted. Like, literally the next day. They just weren't on the Department of Corrections website. There were no services for them. There was nobody to help them. And this was something that had to be sort of dealt with. And they had no work experience. You show up someplace. What have you been doing the last 25 years? I was wrongfully convicted of murder. Yeah, sure you were. So there's this whole other battle that they had to fight when they got out. What was the hardest thing that you found when you got out? What was the biggest hardship for you?

[Josh Cain]

Well, one of them, like he said.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Besides dating Judd, besides Facebook. Let's keep it clean.

[Susan Jacinda]

Let's keep it clean. Yeah.

[Josh Cain]

No, we ain't going there. What he was saying a while ago about the phones, I haven't figured that out yet. Barbara, you stay with a room key. You know where my room key's at right now? It's in the room. I just realized I don't even have him. There you go.

[Susan Jacinda]

He has this unique way. I don't Know how to explain it. It's very charming, except when you're the one who gets the calls. All the. I locked myself out of this. Or he was staying with Jacinda one time. It's like, if you're gonna stay here, you're gonna, like, be family. You gotta go do some yard work. Within 30 seconds, he broke the tool he was doing the artwork with. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah, you did.

[Josh Cain]

Yeah.

[Susan Jacinda]

Like, you've gone through, like, 30 different phones. Like, I never know what your phone number is, but all those little things, I mean, those are things we all take for granted and things that, you know. When Jeff got out of prison in Michigan, I remember riding in the van with him and Jacinda, like, we're going to a restaurant, and she was showing him how to use the phone. But he knew how to do everything else. He knew how to pay bills. He had a work history. This is very different.

[Kevin]

I feel like for Jeff, the biggest thing, getting out, he's like, money has color on it now. That's new. But everything else, he was like he was returning to his life. He was a chance to resume a life he'd had before for many years. Many years, even though he was 20 years away from it. Whereas, like, it's hard for any 17, 18 year old to start off in the world. Imagine being 17, 18, being taken away from it and then starting from scratch, less than scratch, in your 40s.

[Josh Cain]

And that's what I feel. If I hadn't been out here, I probably wouldn't feel this way. But starting out in their position, I feel where they come from. The 18, 19, 20 year old, I can feel where they come from. But I know because I work at Burger King, where I'm at, just like with a whole bunch of em in Kennesaw. And I can feel where they coming from because I know I'm struggling just.

[Kevin]

Like y' all are, and just logistics of it all. I feel like Jacinda has earned, like, her master's in social work just from working with these guys, helping them navigate health insurance, getting ID cards, getting a birth certificate. Just when I said, like, less than nothing. It's like you don't even have basic IDs to begin your life.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Yeah, we did have a sort of. We were talking about, you know, Leanne at the beginning was talking about community. And one of the great things, someone reached out to us several months ago, a man from Georgia who had listened to the podcast. He couldn't make it today, and he reached out and he said, hey, I listened to the podcast. It really touched my heart. And I own a hotel, and I love to have Josh come live at the hotel and help him get work. And we're like, wow, that's amazing. Like just some random person who, you know, had never met these guys, had never met us, just reached out. And Josh has been working ever since, which is great.

[Kevin]

This summer, when Jacinda and I were investigating out in the field, we basically both lived in Quint's clothes.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

It is so true. I think everything I packed came from quints.

[Kevin]

Luckily, I wear color and you don't, so we didn't end up being twinsies, which would have been awkward, but, you.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Know, oh, you don't want to be twinsies with me, Susan.

[Kevin]

I prefer to have colors other than grayscale.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Well, it's because you have Quince then. Because they have both black stuff for me and colorful stuff for you.

[Kevin]

The problem is it is now cold as heck and we need new clothes to go out in the field or I'm not going.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Well, go back to Quint's. I just ordered some cashmere sweaters that are super warm and super comfortable.

[Kevin]

That's funny, because I'm actually literally about to buy the Mongolian cashmere sweatshirt.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

You should totally do that. I splurged and I got my husband the Mongolian cashmere pullover hoodie, which is really nice.

[Kevin]

And you're gonna steal it, I'm sure.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

I was gonna say I'm gonna start wearing it for myself.

[Kevin]

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[Leigh Ann Cook]

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[Kevin]

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[Leigh Ann Cook]

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[Kevin]

So we're obviously in the middle of the podcast season now. Things get hectic and sometimes trying to figure out and shop for dinner is the bane of my existence.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

I think shopping and planning for dinner is the bane of your existence on any day. But yes, especially during the middle of.

[Kevin]

Our podcast season, I do not have the emotional bandwidth or labor to be able to plan out healthy meals, which is why Green Chef is amazing.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

I agree. If it wasn't for Green Chef, I don't think we'd be eating dinner at night.

[Kevin]

We would not have eaten last night. But we had salmon and couscous and it was hands down the best couscous I've ever had in my life.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

It's funny because I had the same one yesterday.

[Kevin]

It was really good.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

It was so, so good. So if you're like us and finding time to make meals and planning is a nuisance, or you just want to eat healthy, try Green Chef.

[Kevin]

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[Leigh Ann Cook]

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[Kevin]

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[Lee Clark]

Coming back to Rome after not seeing him so long? My first reaction when I got back, Rome was really overcrowded. I said, jesus Christ, there was not this many people when I left. Where'd all the cars come from? Where's everybody going? I mean, I got downtown and going through that traffic, I was like, man, God almighty, it's really done sped up big time. Rome has grew a lot. It has. In 25 years I've been gone, it has grown a whole lot. It's really big now. When I was coming out, I mean, I didn't know what to expect. Coming in this county didn't have a clue. I got back in this county and I mean, I got a lot of welcome arms is what I got. But outside of that, when I first got back here to Roma, I started out, and I'm gonna tell you, my fondness for Rome has how it has grown because I have really seen a lot of love from this, from this county right here, from Floyd County, Rome, Georgia, everything, whole county and all. I get out and I start doing factory work and I'm working temp jobs. And it wasn't making ends meet for me. So I got this brainstorming and I got to thinking about some stuff I could do, something that would be within my means to do, that I could probably get the money to be able to get this started, because it's cheap enough I can start it out, and then maybe I can add on to it later as I go, was my thought. So I started me a landscaping business, a lawn care business, and I had the biggest ace in the hole right here of my dad. 45 years in tree business. Can't go wrong with that. That man ain't nothing he don't know how to do. Ain't nothing he ain't cut when it comes to trees. And when it comes to other things, he knows everything. That man teaches me so much every day. I learn so much from him. And I tell you, though, when I first got this business started up, I wasn't really sure about it, and it was really slow go for me. And these wonderful people introduced me to this wonderful woman, and she. She got me a job. I started up working for the wrong little theater up here, and I started working up there. And then it went from that, and I started going to the Rotary clubs. I speak at Rotary clubs. And she wrote a newspaper article for me. And I don't know if any of y' all read this newspaper article or not. This article, I was so impressed with this article. I was so impressed with it. I still got it. I'll keep it the day I die. But it got me a lot of business coming in. A lot of people in Rome responded to this, and I felt the love from this county. Thank y'. All.

[Susan Jacinda]

It only becomes half the story, right? Like them being exonerated and coming home. The fight just starts then, which is the really hard part. And that's when you have to find the people who are dedicated to helping. Everybody likes the story when they get out, and it's a wonderful happy ending. But for these guys, it was just day one of the next battle. And the news cameras go away after that, and it's just the rest of us and you all in town who have to fight the rest of the battle. Because, you know, CNN's not there to take pictures of Glenn hugging his son every day. It's just the day he gets out. So that's where the real battle comes for all of us.

[Kevin]

In a lot of states, there are different programs, bills set up where exonerees do have resources, and in particular, there's compensation provided for to give them a chance to actually restart their lives. Georgia is one of the few states that does not have sort of a global exoneree, Bill. Instead, it's done more of a piecemeal basis. And in order to have any hope of compensation, it has to be sort of an individual political act for each and every single one. So that was one hope that they had for, you know, get back on their feet early on. And Representative Katie Dempsey, who is here tonight, she. Thank you. She took the lead in sponsoring a bill for Joey Watkins. And we talked, and I got something.

[Lee Clark]

That I'd like to say. Katie Dempsey, on a personal note. Katie Dempsey, I want you to know, ma', am, that I'm thankful to you for everything that you've done, everything you're continuing to do. I'm so thankful for you getting behind me, believing in me. That means the world to me. I won't never forget it. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you, ma'.

[Kevin]

Am. In Georgia, it's a hard process. You don't just merely have to find an elected official who knows your story and believes in you and is willing to go to bat for you. You have to go through the whole system, and that's not always possible. I know during the time when you guys were working on this, you worked your asses off. You did met with people. Joey and Lee were meeting with everyone they could, talking to everyone they could, getting your story out there, just trying to be heard.

[Lee Clark]

It's a strange process. I mean, especially. I mean, you talked about it after we were out stuff. I mean, it's strange when you walk up to somebody and I'm gonna give you a good illustration right here about the best illustration I can give you to make you understand how strange this all was for me. How many people in here is familiar with the podcast? How many in here listen to it? Okay, well, everybody in here. Just about. For everybody in here. This is Amanda Boland up here on the front row. Amanda Boland is now my girlfriend. That's what the truth will do for you. That's what she's seen, the truth and stuff. And I'm able to talk to people now and go out to talk to them, and I can talk to them in confidence because I know that truth is out there now. You know what I'm saying? I know everybody knows nothing is hid anymore. And it does feel weird. I mean, in ways. I mean, stuff. I mean, if it does anything to me, what it does to me, it probably opens up an old wound with me, if that makes any sense. It's right. Reliving a harsh nightmare that you just don't want to relive again, but you relive it again because you're trying to explain to people you Want people to understand what everything that happened. You want them to understand the whole story that happened here. Because you want people to gain knowledge from this. You want somebody to be able to take and benefit from this somewhere in the future. That's what I would like to come of all this. I would like for somebody to benefit from it somewhere. Laws to be changed so innocent people don't go to prison anymore. Laws to be changed to get the innocent people that are in prison out of prison. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff I'd like to see changed.

[Kevin]

I mean, there's a lot of battles to be fought.

[Lee Clark]

There's a lot of stuff I'd like to see come from. This really would.

[Susan Jacinda]

I'd like to just circle back for one second to Katie Dempsey, because she did this wonderful job and proposed this bill in the Georgia State Senate, and it was voted down.

[Kevin]

Yeah, they fought tooth and nail for it, but, yeah.

[Susan Jacinda]

So I want everybody to just be clear, like, she fought the good fight and she couldn't get it through. They decided that they didn't want to provide compensation, and that's a tough pill to swallow after serving so much time in prison. Right. Like, if we go back to Jeff Titus in Michigan for a second, he's been out for less time than all these guys, and he's already been compensated by the state of Michigan.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

He got out in February, and then, like, three months later, the state wrote him a check. If you don't know Jeff's story, he was convicted of murdering two hunters on opening deer season off the end of his property line, which we were able to prove he did not do. So now he's back out and hunting again, and we're like, maybe that's not such a great idea.

[Susan Jacinda]

Maybe it's not worth it.

[Lee Clark]

Might be time to retire, buddy.

[Josh Cain]

May have better rain.

[Lee Clark]

Who knows?

[Kevin]

So where they are now is their left to again rebuild their lives without any support from the state that put them away for, again, quarter of a century. And they're. I mean, it's getting easier now, but I know both y' all have had some real hard times.

[Lee Clark]

I'm gonna tell you. I mean, it's getting easier. But don't take what I say to mean that this got easy, that I'm just sitting back, just coasting alone like. Ain't nothing to it. No, it ain't got easy like that. By no means. I tell you, it's. I don't know. It's a daily struggle. I mean, you get out here and you make progress. You Better make ends meet a little bit more, A little bit more as you go along. It's like anything in life, you have to build to it. I mean, you build up to everything. It's a slow process with everything except the time. That's one thing I've noticed. The time just flies. I mean, the day's gone. I'm like, where did the day just go? I'm looking at my daddy at the end of the day I look, what happened? Where did they go? He said, oh, well, man down to go to the house. I said, Jesus Christ.

[Kevin]

Wait a second.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Leave us the best impression of Glenn.

[Susan Jacinda]

Yeah, it's actually Glenn is smiling.

[Kevin]

He'S just nodding.

[Josh Cain]

No, it takes a lot of experience, don't it?

[Kevin]

Yeah, yeah, but you've had a lifetime of days going slowly. Days just crawling by. Now suddenly everything's fast forward.

[Lee Clark]

Yeah, them slow days. I remember them days though. That man right there was keeping me afloat too. That man right there is a rock. Best man ever met in my life. And I don't say that cuz he's my daddy. I say that because the actions I see in this man every day, everything I watch him do, everything I watch him do, speaks of a great man to me. And I live up to be half the man he is, I'll be doing all right.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

And if any of you happen to be walking around Rome, Floyd county and you run into Glenn, do me a favor and just say roll tag.

[Josh Cain]

Ain't a team beating us.

[Kevin]

Josh, how's it been for you?

[Josh Cain]

It's been rough, but it's getting better though. I mean, I started seeing a little more daylight, but it's still walking to work every morning, coming back, you know, then working on the weekends and then walking, working the weekend, coming back and eating. And I'm learning and I mean I've gotten a chance to drive down here to this county and down here a couple of Times now down 41 and 4, 11. I learned people can't drive.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Well, let's back up for a minute. Josh did not have his driver's license when he was was sent to prison, so he never had it. So he got his first driver's license ever just a few months ago.

[Kevin]

So watch out.

[Josh Cain]

Just know now. I remember being one time, well we lived about 95, I think it was. I about ran us into the river.

[Lee Clark]

Drove us into the river. His driving me days was suspended after that. I'm not getting in the car with you ever again if you're driving, period.

[Josh Cain]

I can drive now. Actually, I really can't. I swear. You will. Not with.

[Lee Clark]

I'm not gonna get in the car.

[Josh Cain]

You'll find out more, so don't worry about it.

[Kevin]

I remember the first time we talked, Josh and I didn't get any sense that you had any hope of getting out.

[Josh Cain]

I did.

[Kevin]

Like, you thought that was a foreclosed future. Like, to you, it was not even worth pondering because it was the impossible.

[Lee Clark]

Yeah.

[Josh Cain]

Cause I mean, once you, you know, did what you're supposed to by law, and you're not, you know, you didn't. Like, you handle a bunch of doctors, you really had that. And you get set off, the maximum they can set you off, which is eight years, and you don't know. Still nothing to wonder why. And you say, well, you already know what that is. And then, you know, I mean, my gosh, you know you didn't do it, but you can't. You know, you steady screaming, won't nobody listen to you.

[Kevin]

The court actually told you you couldn't file anymore?

[Josh Cain]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

They didn't explain that. That's a crazy.

[Kevin]

So while in prison, Josh, you know, tried to represent himself, try to find a way to be heard. And the court's way of dealing with it was to write an order saying he was now barred from filing anything in the court.

[Josh Cain]

So. Yeah.

[Kevin]

Which you can't. Which you can't do. But also, how practically can you oppose that if you're someone like Josh?

[Josh Cain]

Yeah. You're in prison, they don't care. I mean, you don't have nobody out there going to the court saying, you.

[Kevin]

Can'T really do this.

[Josh Cain]

We can sue you for doing this. You know what I'm saying? I didn't have that. So they're not gonna hear you. They just bog you. And you file. You write another motion. You want to. You get it back with the order saying, no more orders, petitions, or papers. You had.

[Kevin]

When.

[Susan Jacinda]

When Susan first got a hold of you on the phone, you had no hope. And as I remember it, you said, I'll do it. I'll do it for Lee. Because you didn't think you had any chance.

[Josh Cain]

No, I really didn't.

[Susan Jacinda]

I mean, and then one day you get a phone call from Luke Martin, and one of the jailers comes to you and says, your lawyer's on the phone.

[Josh Cain]

You're like, what lawyer?

[Lee Clark]

What?

[Susan Jacinda]

I got a lawyer.

[Katie Dempsey]

Really?

[Josh Cain]

Okay. The turning point for me, when she told me about Angela Bruce, I said what? I said, oh, we going home? I said, because that's the only reason why the Supreme Court denied this back in 1999, saying it was harmful error because of her testimony. That's the basis of their whole decision. So when I heard that, I was like, okay, I don't know exactly how strong it's going to be, but I don't care. It's not weak. I know this for a fact. So, you know, I started seeing some.

[Kevin]

Daylight then in the original appeal these guys did way back when, like 24, three years ago now, the Supreme Court of Georgia had issued an opinion that acknowledged that, okay, wait, obviously there was errors here. A lot of this is probably problematic, but they're all harmless because thanks to Angela Bruce, we know they did it anyway.

[Josh Cain]

Yeah, that was.

[Kevin]

So that's why when I told Josh about Angela Bruce and how she recanted and admitted what had gone on to him, that was such huge news because that was the only, only peg left in the state's case that held the whole appeal up.

[Susan Jacinda]

And these two, Susan and Jacinda, tracked her down and knocked on her door and said, you know what happened? And she said, well, somebody here played.

[Lee Clark]

The pregnancy card to get out.

[Susan Jacinda]

Yeah, she played the car.

[Lee Clark]

Ye. I wanted to sit down and pregnant.

[Kevin]

I couldn't stand up anymore. It was no lies told.

[Susan Jacinda]

Oh, I'm so pregnant. Do you mind if I just sit.

[Audience Member]

Here for a minute?

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Sit on your porch and talk for a few minutes?

[Kevin]

Yeah. And she did.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

And she did. And she agreed to let us record. And it was. It's an interview I'll never forget. By the end of it, she. She stopped talking to us and she spoke directly to Lee and Josh and said, I'm so sorry for what I've done.

[Kevin]

I remember that she stopped looking at us, even like we were having a conversation. And we asked if she had anything to say to, you know, Lee and Josh. And she looked at the recorders as she was actually talking to them and said, I'm sorry. I mean, she. To me, it seemed like she felt regret and sadness, but she said herself she'd do it again for her kids if she had to.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

It was an exciting moment, but it was short lived in a way because it wasn't too long after. Kevin, do you remember you and I, we went to see Glenn and we were like, glenn, we have something we.

[Kevin]

Want you to hear.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

You know, we're so excited to show, to let you listen to this. And it was Angela's interview where she says she lied. And I was expecting Glenn to like, be excited, like. And he just said, I've known all along, like I already. I like, you're not telling me anything new. I know my son is not guilty. Like, I don't need someone else to tell me that. And it was sort of like, I don't know, just put things in perspective. Like, it's such a hard battle to fight.

[Kevin]

Right.

[Susan Jacinda]

And there was so much. There was so much sort of hopelessness, I think. And, you know, one of the things that I think touched us all personally while we. When we were making this and decided to make it, was Glenn's commitment to doing this. And sort of. The first time we met Glenn was probably March of 2021. Jacinda and I drove down from New York and it was sort of still the height of the pandemic. And, you know, Glenn was very honest with us about. He really was like, I need to get him out while I'm still here to help him. And it was this. It was this very sort of powerful thing where we knew we were in at that point.

[Kevin]

Yeah, I know Josh had given up hope, and I know there were times when Lee doubted he'd come home, but Glenn always knew they were coming back. Of course, the other major witness in their case was Charlie, who the state said had actually been essentially an eyewitness to the murder, or at least in the after effects. And the only person in the case who ever supposedly named Lee, who was never even around that night. And we going in Angela Bruce, we had reasons to suspect her story was not quite what it was presented as at trial. There were issues in the record, issues in her own statement where I would not say that our conversation was a total surprise by what she told us. Charlie, we had no idea what we were walking into. He's deaf, and he was only able to testify at trial through an interpreter. But the transcript is, to this day, the wildest transcript. I've never seen one like it before. I worked on a lot of cases. I think I'd say, hands down, Charlie's direct and cross examination are the wildest criminal trial transcripts I've ever encountered. So we spoke to the translator who was there at trial, and she told us about how difficult it was and how she'd been put in an impossible situation, showed up to do her job, and had someone there on the stand who she could not effectively communicate with. And she told us, well, my dad knew him, like, interesting. Through her, we ended up meeting Mike Burton, who has known Charlie for most of his life. And it was only because of him that we were able to actually communicate with Charlie ourselves once we.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Yeah, first we had to find him.

[Kevin]

That was an adventure on its own. But even if we'd found him, we couldn't have. We did find him on our own and tried. And we were making the same mistakes that I think had been made before with him because we understood just enough to think we knew what we were talking about with him. Turns out we did not. But we were able to get Mike Burtons in the audience tonight.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Mike is here.

[Kevin]

Thank you. So.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

We, we called Mike, I think it was more than once, maybe two or three days in a row. We thought we might have a lead on where Charlie was. So we'd be like, mike, we're coming to get you.

[Kevin]

We might have him.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

We might have Charlie. I mean, drive around Rome. We didn't have him, like, hey, we'll try again tomorrow. And then finally, finally we found him.

[Kevin]

And yeah, and Mike volunteered to come up with us and see Charlie. He taught Charlie back in school in the 70s, so long time ago now. And he'd seen him off and on over the years, but Charlie had kind of fallen out of touch with a lot of people.

[Lee Clark]

If I'm not mistaken, this man right here is the only man alive that can effectively communicate with this man.

[Kevin]

And I never could have guessed what Charlie actually had to say.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Also, do you remember when Charlie saw you for the first time? He was so happy to see you. He had tears in his eyes and a big hug.

[Kevin]

And yeah, him seeing you walk up, it was like that. It was a lifeline for him, like someone who could actually hear what he had to say. And Charlie, it turned out, had no idea of what was said to have happened or what he said to have said. And it took a little bit to understand because part of what he was trying to tell us were like, that doesn't make any sense. That can't be right. And of course, once he actually could explain his own words, it did all come together. But because no one had asked him to explain in a way that he could explain, people just assumed they knew what he was saying and put on a whole story on top of it that had nothing to do with nothing. Because it turns out he was talking about a totally different event that happened years before, similar in circumstances but decades earlier, where another boy had died in an accidental shooting. But Mike was able to talk to him. And Charlie was so confident, like once he could actually talk and be heard, he was like, no, that's not what happened. Here's what really went down. And he had no doubts about it.

[Lee Clark]

He was pretty clear on everything. And as you know, I look back, what was done to him, the way he was used, that's just straight. That's just straight wrong. That's just evil at his core right there. Use somebody with a disability like that, a handicap like that and use it against them and to lie on them like that and to say, there's you putting words in their mouth. I do, you know, I don't understand that. I won't understand that.

[Josh Cain]

But when I found out they really was, you know, used by them, and I just hurt my heart so bad. It just made me so mad. How can you do that?

[Susan Jacinda]

So one thing that Jacinda, Susan and I have certainly learned over the years is that in wrong pull conviction stories, you don't just need a lot of hard work, you need a lot of good fortune. It has to sort of fall into place. And there was a tremendous amount of good fortune in this story. So many times where just a little bit one way or the other, things could have sort of fallen apart completely. And I just want to sort of list some of them. So when we decided to make this story, Jacinda and I make lots of documentaries and do things at other places and people purchase these things from us. And so we took this story out and nobody wanted to make it. Nobody we do business with wanted to make it. We had some very long conversations with people and they were like, yeah, but you don't know if anything's going to happen. And like, do you have a celebrity involved? I think at one point, if we could have put Tom Hanks in the van and drove around Floyd county, they would have been all for it. But that wasn't going to happen. So we decided to make it anyway and we would fund it ourselves and we were going to make this sort of thing happen. So that's like, we couldn't walk away after meeting Lee and meeting Glenn. We hadn't sort of met Josh yet, but we weren't going to walk away. So there was sort of that good fortune. And then there was the good fortune that these two happened to get Angela Bruce to agree to sit down and talk about it because she had refused to talk to other people about it, about changing her story, right? And it's like, it's literally that razor thin. If she didn't change her story, none of us would really be sitting here.

[Kevin]

She'd slam the door shut in her.

[Susan Jacinda]

Faces, like, that's it. So you gotta have a lot of good fortune. So we joke about, like, Susan going, oh, my God, I'm six months pregnant. Can I just sit down?

[Kevin]

I was eight and a half by that point, for the record.

[Lee Clark]

Okay, okay.

[Susan Jacinda]

But that's good fortune. Like, you need that fortune, and you need those moments to fall. And then the Charlie thing. Like, I remember the Charlie thing. I wasn't down here every trip with him, but I was down here a lot. And we drove around and we were looking for him, and we could never find him. And then she calls me and she goes, we found him. And I was like, oh, my God. So that's good fortune. But then the good fortune that you find him, who's the only person on the planet who can actually understand him, and he's willing to help out. And then we finish the podcast and we have all this momentum, and you're like, oh, my God. But we still have a long way to go. And then Luke Martin calls all of these things, right? And then there was a dispute about, like, are we going to get a hearing on this date? Are we going to get a hearing on that date?

[Lee Clark]

No.

[Susan Jacinda]

And Luke refused to take no for an answer. Like, the hearing date had been. They got out December 8, 2022. The hearing date had been moved off the books. And I remember we were in Los Angeles working on another project, and we got on the plane.

[Kevin]

Anyway, I think I told you were Kevin. You said you were. No, I said, like, tell Kevin it's not worth being there. Like, things are falling apart. Like, it's not worth going there. And you're like, look, we're gonna be.

[Susan Jacinda]

Doing anyway because we just. So, like, there's all of this good fortune that has to happen.

[Lee Clark]

Right.

[Susan Jacinda]

And any one of those things that. That didn't work out, these guys wouldn't be out here. So it's not enough to be innocent. You need good fortune and you need people who need to work hard. And I think that's the thing that everybody sort of loses sight of in this story because they like, oh, my God, it happened so fast. Yeah. It's not supposed to. And it's so hard and so unrealistic that it happened that way. And that's the thing. I try and leave with people all the time. You know, life is about hard work, but it's also a lot about luck.

[Kevin]

Putting the pieces together so the moment happens.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Right.

[Kevin]

You can actually make use of it.

[Susan Jacinda]

Yeah. And so, you know, we all worked really hard on the story, but there are a lot of people in this community who worked really hard, too. And we all got really lucky. So, you know, we all need a little luck. These guys didn't have it 25 years ago and this time they did.

[Kevin]

It's something I've seen in a lot of cases I've worked on. Things that seem like failures at the time turn out to have been extremely fortunate failures because the timing wasn't right. And if things had happened the way I wanted them to happen, it probably would not have not have worked out. But sometimes you get the people you need in the right place together, like with Mike, Burton and Charlie, and you get information that you've been looking for all along.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

So we're going to do a really quick we're okay. We're going to do a quick recap of where things stand for our season two. I don't know if anybody's had shown chance to listen to season two of Proof. If not, please do. Because even though it's a case out in Manteca, California, having people listen to it from Rome, Georgia will help Jake in his chance of getting out as well.

[Kevin]

But season two is currently so we wrapped up earlier this year for the podcast, but the investigation is ongoing. Spoilers, I guess. So close your ears if you haven't listened yet.

[Susan Jacinda]

But it's just part of it.

[Kevin]

We were able to find an attorney.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Multiple same thing actually.

[Kevin]

Yeah, we had no attorneys for this guy and suddenly we have like five different groups that come out of the woodwork.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

As soon as the last episode ended. We got probably like eight calls in a week from attorneys after working for.

[Kevin]

Like a year and having everyone like, yeah. Anyway, luckily it all came together. So that case is currently the so called missing evidence is been located and now has been sent out for testing.

[Susan Jacinda]

Been located by the two of them, the evidence that had been missing for decades. These two clowns finding a box in the courthouse.

[Kevin]

It really was just sitting there there.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

We're like, okay, we've talked about this before but it's hard to explain. So Susan and I are in a room in the courthouse and you know, we have our white gloves on because we're touching evidence and there's these boxes and we're going through things and we pull out a sealed envelope and it's the missing murder weapon, it's her necklaces and we're trying to contain our excitement.

[Kevin]

For having found Keeping Poker Face going on.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Yeah, like, oh, look at this.

[Kevin]

Interesting. What is this doing here?

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Oh, maybe we should take 100 photos of it. So this thing that's proof that it's.

[Kevin]

Here that the state said in filings was missing and couldn't be found, so could never be DNA Tested. It's just sitting right here. There we go.

[Susan Jacinda]

That item is now being tested for DNA in that case.

[Kevin]

His attorney's got it sent off to the lab. It's there now. We have no exact time frame on it, but it's a matter of months. And as far as DNA evidence goes in old cases like, this is a really, really strong shot at getting, like, a complete answer to what happened to the victim in that case.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

So Jake has been in prison for.

[Kevin]

24 now.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

24 years, yeah. And he called me a couple weeks ago, and, you know, he's in a bad place. His case is closer than ever in many ways, but it feels further.

[Kevin]

But he's always had the rug pulled. Everything's ever gotten anywhere. It's always been a very hard no, complete fail.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Yeah, well, he said, hope. You have to have hope, but hope is very, very dangerous because it will crush you. And so I was wondering, Josh and Lee, if you guys have any words for him, you were in his same place only a few years ago.

[Josh Cain]

Just always know this. You didn't do it.

[Lee Clark]

Know that.

[Josh Cain]

Regardless of whatever, regardless of what, the results or anything, if you know you didn't do it, just know you didn't do it, and you will be venerated.

[Lee Clark]

Well, I've had a chance to talk to Jake a couple times on the phone, and I told Jake, when I talked to him, I said, look, man, I said, best thing I can tell you, man, he should just keep it positive about it, man. Jake, I know it's hard to do in there, and environment you're in, I mean, it's rough to do in there, but you got a lot of good stuff going for you, for you out here right now. I know it's hard to see, but trust me, I was where you're at, and I was going through the same thing you're going through, thinking, man, this ain't gonna do nothing. This. I don't know. I didn't know what a podcast was when they first told me about it. I was like, a podcast anyways. Yeah, but I told him. I said, yeah, I said, you just. You just gotta stay strong, man. Stay positive about it. Keep the faith. I mean. Cause it's gonna work out, man. It'll work out. Just keep that mindset. Don't. Don't keep a negative mindset on it. And I told him, that's hard to do, brother, but that's the only thing I can tell you, man. Stay strong, man, and know that these ladies out here, out here fighting for you, man.

[Kevin]

And I've told Jake, like, your job is to stay alive because that's. I mean, he's in prison for the rape and murder of his girlfriend, which puts his life at risk in a way, these two who didn't quite experience.

[Lee Clark]

Oh, yeah, he's got a target painted on his back. He's a bullseye on him automatically in there. He's targeted out. And they want to kill him, too.

[Kevin]

They've nearly done it a few times.

[Susan Jacinda]

And his friend was convicted of the same crime with him. And his friend was murdered in prison.

[Kevin]

So he's. I told Jake, like, you know what? You don't have to be hopeful. You don't have to have any belief where this is going. Like, you just keep yourself alive long enough for us to do something. And he's like, I can do that. I've been doing it for a long time. I'm good at. I'm good at staying alive.

[Lee Clark]

So his buddy didn't fare so well.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

No, his co. Defendant did not.

[Lee Clark]

And that's what I don't. That's what really tears my heart out there.

[Kevin]

Right there. Can't fix that.

[Lee Clark]

There'll be no justice for him. Nothing can ever fix what's happened to him. It's all open to him. And that ain't right. It ain't right.

[Susan Jacinda]

But, you know, these are stories that we try and author happy endings with, but they're very difficult to author happy.

[Kevin]

Endings, and there are no endings. I mean, it's just a new battle to fight once they're out.

[Lee Clark]

Yeah. Not all of them were happy. Wish they were, but they ain't. Now.

[Josh Cain]

I thank y' all from the bottom of my heart. I just. I don't know what to say. Thank God and thank y'.

[Lee Clark]

All.

[Josh Cain]

Thank Lou Martin for real. He say what you want to. I know he don't want to, but if he does, I don't care what. What. He runs as Lou Martin.

[Moderator]

Okay, so we're gonna take some questions from the audience, and I'm gonna run there so that everybody can hear. Okay? So, you know. Yes, ma'.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Am.

[Katie Dempsey]

This is related to just entering back into society. I mean, there's an election coming up, and I was wondering, the law in the state of Georgia, does it allow you to vote?

[Josh Cain]

Yeah, I'm voting Tuesday.

[Susan Jacinda]

Okay, good, good.

[Katie Dempsey]

Will this be the first.

[Josh Cain]

I'm registered. I'm registered in Cobb County.

[Katie Dempsey]

So will this be the first year that you're able to vote?

[Josh Cain]

Yeah, I'm making a video of it, too.

[Lee Clark]

Can we let it be known I'm voting for this wonderful lady sitting up here on the front row.

[Moderator]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Cain]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin]

The reality is that for wrongful convictions, exonerees, this is a political process. Like, this is a political movement. And without having elected officials who understand that and who care, I mean, you can't get anywhere. I mean, maybe a case here and there, but for real change, we have to have officials who care about it and know about it.

[Moderator]

That's true. Katie, do you want to say something about that?

[Katie Dempsey]

Well, first of all, I'll say thank you. Thank you. This is powerful, isn't it, y'? All, just to have them here and telling this story. It is so real. It matters so very much. And it has been such a privilege to work with Lee and with Joey and to see you, Josh. I can't wait to shake your hand. In a minute. You know, there are a lot of people like this, and it's really sad in a community, I think, when you realize that we were walking with people who were working against a lot of folks, I know them. I wasn't elected at that time, but there was a case that actually happened in this community that made me want to get more involved and be elected. So I understand that we do have to work hard to change it. Just a little bit of history, though, briefly, on what's happening with this in Georgia. We do that right to vote very well. A lot of states don't let you do that. So that is given. And so I'm glad you're exercising it. That is a great privilege, and you should. But the compensation issue is hard. There are people who just cannot give it up, who just think that there was some other flaw, there was just something else, and they still want to sort of retry cases. I have had, I've served on what in the House we did to listen to cases and have probably, I would say maybe at least 10 different cases over the years where in the House, we always said, yes, they were wrongly convicted. And when the state makes a mistake, stake and error, intentional or unintentional, they deserve that money. They were robbed of their life, and they should have that to have a good new start. There are people, though, who just don't agree with it. In the House, we did pass it. It was a glorious passage in the House. They got a standing ovation. The speaker reached up and pointed to them in the gallery and apologized for what had been done to them. And then the Senate, one senator actually stopped it dead in its tracks. And it's not okay. And I'm not giving up. And so are others not giving up. The other measure that was really even more important is that we have set in place a mechanism from the House to make this where not legislators. We're not elected to decide people's lives. We're there to help you, but not to decide whether you have the gift that they all deserve. We should have experts making those decisions. We should have a panel just like other states do. We're not the only one, but we are in a small minority here. That bill also after midnight on the last night this year, we could not get the Senate to take it up. It was ready to go. We put it on everything we could attach it to to try to get it through and it wouldn't work. We're ready to go back and to try to fight that battle again. And that's what we must do because there are others, there are others in Georgia that are certainly very deserving of this. So that's where I'll say where that is. There's much more for Georgia to do and we have some great examples to help us do it. Thank y'. All. Persevere.

[Kevin]

Please.

[Moderator]

Okay. We still have a little bit more time for questions. Well, so first I want to say your journey has been incredibly inspiring to so many people and thank you for coming out and sharing your story with us tonight. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit because I know you've been on the phone with, I think it was the gentleman in Michigan that you were talking to and trying to support, my friend Mitchum back here, I know has been a supporter of several people who have gone through this. I wonder if you could talk about how meaningful it is to have somebody who has walked your walk come out and support you and try to help you through your journey on the outside, on the tail end of this journey.

[Lee Clark]

Well, it makes a difference when you've got somebody who's been there. That's the biggest thing right there. He's been there. So he knows what you're going through. So he knows what kind of support you need. He knows. I mean he's lived it. I mean he's still living it. I mean, hey, hey, how long you been out now? Mitching Ms. Long time.

[Josh Cain]

It happened 50 years ago.

[Lee Clark]

50 years ago. 50 years ago. Yeah.

[Josh Cain]

August, August this past year was 50 years when I was arrested. And then that was 1974. Then January 1975 in a five hour.

[Lee Clark]

Trial with a drunk lawyer and a.

[Josh Cain]

Judge that hated me.

[Lee Clark]

They found me guilty and sentenced me to life in a five hour trial.

[Josh Cain]

So I did seven in and then nine on parole.

[Lee Clark]

I've been out since 81 and still feeling the effects of it today. It's a burr in my saddle, you know, it's got a little. I know it's got easier over the years, but you still gonna feel it? Oh yeah, all of us. Anybody who's been in them shoes.

[Susan Jacinda]

One of the most sort of shocking and, and profound experiences I think that we've had in the wake of this story is there's a wrongful conviction conference every year. And it moves around from sort of city to city and you walk into this sort of, you know, a hotel like banquet room or lobby. The first one was in Phoenix and there are hundreds and hundreds of people sitting in this room, all of whom have lost decades of their lives to being wrongfully convicted. And then you realize that it's not just like one or two people. Like the stories are relentless. And I think it's this powerful thing where they can all sit together and they can compare notes and they can. It's like laughing about shared experience almost in this way of like, oh, we all grew up in the same hometown and we're getting together again. Like they all have similar things in common. It's as if they're cousins or something. But there's also just this tragedy to it. I mean, I forget what it was. The one at Phoenix. Somebody tallied up the number of years in total that had been stolen from these people. And it just sends like tears streaming down your eyes. So like as a culture, we need to start coming to terms with ways that we can handle this. It's a real problem, people getting thrown up and thrown away. And you walk into that wrongful conviction conference and it takes your breath away.

[Kevin]

And they're the lucky ones. It is so hard to have a conviction challenge. The ones who make it out are the minority.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

And to your point, the other unique thing about the wrongful Conviction Conference, which is open to anybody to attend if anyone's interested, you would think it'd be like such a depressing conference and it's not. There's no bitterness. Everyone is so hopeful and optimistic and so thankful and every day, yeah, that's.

[Lee Clark]

What they glad of. I'm glad I'm out of that place.

[Susan Jacinda]

I thought it was an odd choice this year to have it in New Orleans and take a bunch of people lost decades and send them loose on the streets. Some questionable judgment in that around 2 in the morning.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

But you know, Josh, I still call you Cain by Accident. Josh called me. Like, what was. Like, I put Josh in an Uber to go to find his place, and I put the wrong address. Oh, my God.

[Josh Cain]

We ain't gonna go.

[Lee Clark]

We're not gonna go.

[Susan Jacinda]

No, but, like. But then, like, you see all these funny, like, joyful things, too. Like, he and I are walking up, you know, the street in New Orleans and says he wants to get a drink. And we stop into some place that just grabbed to go thing on the way back to the hotel. I turn around and he's got this, like, giant plastic, like, purple thing with this, like, huge straw. And I'm like, what on earth are you.

[Josh Cain]

It was a hurricane. That's what it was.

[Lee Clark]

A hurricane.

[Susan Jacinda]

That wasn't a hurricane.

[Lee Clark]

Yeah, that was the hurricane.

[Susan Jacinda]

I've been drinking long enough to know that wasn't a hurricane.

[Josh Cain]

The effects. It was a hurricane.

[Moderator]

Okay, do we have anybody else that.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

Wants to ask a question?

[Moderator]

Oh, over here. This man was one of the first people to hire Lee to do yard work.

[Audience Member]

So Lee has been cutting my father's yard and doing all the yard work for several months now, like Leanne said. So if you need a reference, I will give the strongest reference I could possibly give. So. And he does awesome work, and his dad comes out every once in a while. I got to meet him just, what, Thursday you guys came out? And then. So I challenge everybody in this room to try to help them in any way. It doesn't need to be a lot, just anything. But all of these people in this room can do so much to help these guys. You know, if you need some lawn care or you need, you know, a tree cut down or anything like that, reach out to Lee. And aside from that, my question is, how else can the community and communities help you guys? Because I really hope that you do get the money from the state of Georgia. But we need a plan B in case it doesn't happen again. So how can the people in this room and all of their friends. Because I know everybody's going to go home and tell their friends about you guys. So how can we help?

[Lee Clark]

Well, the biggest thing I think could be a help is write to them. The Senate, something Senate. You know what I say? Write them. I mean, call them. Hey, write them. Call them. Whatever you gotta do. Show up down there if you have to. Hey, we're here. We here. We want. We want something done. I don't know. I mean, just. I encourage them. Just reach out and write them. I mean, I ain't encouraging nobody do nothing crazy, nothing foolish like Nothing like that, but. But, yeah, just. I mean, we just fried them and maybe some phone calls. Yeah, the phone calls, my thing, that's all. Phone calls to them. That's the only things I can think of. I mean, the only ways I really know the.

[Moderator]

I think they were talking about if somebody could do something for you.

[Lee Clark]

Well, for me, Yeah. I mean, yeah, definitely. Call me if you need some yard work done. I'm your man. I'm your man. You got some trees, you need to come down, call me. Cause I'll come get them.

[Audience Member]

We keep talking about your business, so.

[Susan Jacinda]

I was wondering if you could tell us the name of your landscape business.

[Lee Clark]

It's Lee's Landscaping and more. All right. Do you have a website? No, I do not have it yet. Working on that. Leanne is going to help me get that set up because I cannot do it. Look, you hand me that thing talking about set it up. It ain't gonna happen. Well, it's going to be. Sitting there 20 years from now, it ain't going to happen.

[Audience Member]

I would like to offer our services. We own a marketing and design agency.

[Lee Clark]

And we would like to build you a website.

[Kevin]

Great.

[Lee Clark]

Great.

[Josh Cain]

Thank you.

[Moderator]

And, you know, for such a nice thing, I think I need to give them a little commercial, don't y'?

[Lee Clark]

All?

[Moderator]

When in Rome. When in Rome, you find nice people. So thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the rest of the festival if you're going to it. And if not, you know, go out there and think about what you can do to make the world a better place.

[Kevin]

Thanks for listening to this special update episode on season one of Proof. Our next update, hopefully will be on season two. Because the evidence in Jake Silva's case is currently at the lab awaiting DNA testing. We anticipate results sometime in the early months of next year. So not long from now, we should know what answers DNA may hold for us. And once that happens, we'll be back with an update to let you know about everything that was found. Found.

[Leigh Ann Cook]

You've been listening to Proof, a podcast by Red Marble Media in association with Glassbox Media. Send us your questions and comments atproof crimepod Gmail.com. follow us everywhere with the handle at Proof Crime Pod and on our website, proof crimepod.com thanks so much for listening. The new Wegovy pill is now available through weight watchers. Powerful GLP1 results in a simple pill at the lowest price available. And with Weight Watchers, you can get doctor support and personalized nutrition programs. See if you qualify at weight watchers.comad not reviewed or approved by Novo Nordisk.