A (2:50)

I mean, some of you might be saying, who in the world is Gog and Magog? What are these guys talking about? Maybe you're new, maybe you're new to the program or you just happen to stumble on the program. So what is Gog and Magog? That's to me that I remember when I first learned about Gog and Magog in Ezekiel, I was like, what in the world is this? Explain what those terms even are.

B (3:13)

Well, Gog is the name of a person, a ruler or a king. Magog is the name of a Scythian nation which most of the ancient historians agree was north of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, deep up into modern Russia and east over towards India. So in the last days we're going to have this Gog and Magog scenario where this Gog, the human leader is going to lead a coalition of nations led by Magog. And those nations will include the other Scythian nations. They could include Germany. They're certainly going to include Turkey and Iran and a whole bunch of other nations that will come against Israel.

A (3:52)

We see that Ezekiel's using these ancient names which now we have to say, well, what's he referring to? And so that's why Lee is discussing so at the conference. Kind of give us a rundown of what you shared. Gog and Magog has been around for a while. And how did you approach the topic?

B (4:09)

So what I did is I started by enticing people with the idea of we all are familiar somewhat with Ezekiel 38 and 39 and we know there's a probably a Russian led coalition that's going to come against Israel in the last days. But I wanted to get people to think about why we see Gog and Magog again in Revelation 20, verses 7 and 8. Why don't we just see Egypt or Babylon? Typology of the world? Why Gog and Magog? So then I walk people back and we go through the nations that are in Ezekiel 38 and 39 and I present to them that they're broken up into the Scythian nations, the Scandinavian nations, Germany, and then Turkey and Iran and Persia and Ethiopia. Then I give a broader history of all these northern horde nations and how historically, prior to the times of the Gentiles were a problem for all the Middle East. And then in the times of the Gentiles they over and over again were problematic for Babylon, for Medo, Persia, for Greece. They sacked Rome four times, led to the collapse of the Roman Empire. And I just present how these northern horns have continually come against God's established government in the Middle East. And then I present, in the modern days we're seeing the same thing. The Holy Roman Empire was Germany and Prussia trying to dominate the Roman Empire, which God did not give that to Germany. We see Hitler's Germany, we see the Soviet Union. Now we see Russia led Brics. This is just this Gog and Magog spirit over and over again trying to dominate Europe, the Middle east and North Africa. And God just continually sets that aside and rebuffs all those efforts. So when we come to the end of the times of the Gentiles and the Lord descends from heaven, this stone, not cut out by hands, hits the image on the feet, destroys the entire image, not just the feet. So Babylon, Medo, Persia, Greece and the Roman Empire are gone. And then we go into God's established government in the kingdom, which is the Messianic Empire. At the end it's the rebellion manifested against the established government. So it can't be Babylon, Medo, Persia, Greece or Rome. It can only be Gog and Magog. Now this doesn't mean that it's necessarily led by the same region of the world, but it's the same spirit, manifested

A (6:41)

spirit that, that really is the key in all this. Because again, this is very interesting language because in Ezekiel 38 and 39 you have this again this prophecy talk about as well, that why do we believe, why would we believe anyway that this wasn't fulfilled in history and that we expect it to be from the future, from this point forward. Hasn't it ever been fulfilled?

B (7:06)

Well, if you look back at history, you can find any one of those individual nations being problematic or one point or another for the Middle East. And many of them, you can find them being problematic at one point or another for the nation of Israel. But if you look back in history, there is no point in time where that entire coalition of nations was ever together in a united campaign against the nation of Israel.

A (7:34)

Yeah, I think that that is, that is super powerful because here we are, we're looking at this and we're looking at things on the horizon. And Lee, I find it interesting where the, back in the late 90s or really in earlier Turkey was very friendly with Israel. And so people who are reading Ezekiel 38 are going, I mean we believe the Bible's true, but how is this going to happen. And so talk about that for a moment. What has happened from the 90s when Israel is having joint things with the nation of Turkey and now Ezekiel 38 looks, it didn't look very probable back then, but now it does.

B (8:14)

Well, we could even back up a little earlier because you go back into the 60s and earlier Turkey was strongly allied with America. There wasn't these NATO tensions that we have right now. There wasn't a divided interest. You go back to Iran, Persia, they were strong allies with America. Persia and Turkey were not getting along very well. Iran and Russia did not get along very well. Turkey and Russia did not get along very well. Fast forwards all these decades now, Turkey and Russia are closely aligned. Russia and Iran are closely aligned. And we're seeing rapprochement between Turkey and Iran as they're realizing that there are differences between Sunni and Shia smaller than their antipathy to the satanic west into Israel. And there's a growing unity there that is threatening to not only be a problem, serious problem for Israel, but to overthrow the Abrahamic accords.

A (9:14)

We see this coalition come together, Russia, Iran, Turkey, exactly as Ezekiel 38 says, again unheard of, you know, 25 years ago. But again the Bible is going to show itself to be right. It also reveals too that God said specifically that Gog would come upon the land in the latter years. And so that language appears there which again is pointing at to our current age. And so we're going to talk as well about one of the other topics that Lee addressed, which is the pre wrath Rapture. He addressed that. Very well done at the Norman Conference. We're going to talk about that when we come back. But right now we're going to take a little break where you can see how to get our magazine where which again is keeping you informed every single month on all these topics as we watch the Lord's return come sooner and sooner.

C (10:03)

At Prophecy Watchers we believe that God has called us to be a voice in these last days to warn you of things to come, to educate you on the study of Bible prophecy and to boldly proclaim the soon return of Jesus for your gift of just $50 or more. Here's what we'd love to send 12 monthly issues of our Four Color magazine the Prophecy Watcher in your choice of print or digital. Plus five bonus DVDs packed with eye opening teachings from prophecy experts. As an added bonus, we want to send you a one of a kind prophetic treasure, a book that examines every prophecy in the entire Bible. Exploring Bible prophecy From Genesis to Revelation is the work of Jesus two prophecy Tim LaHaye and Ed Hindson It's a book you'll find on the shelf of every prophecy expert. This 560 page masterpiece is our bonus gift to you. This $120 value can be yours for your gift of $50 with shipping included in the USA. Call us at the number on your screen or visit us online at ProphecyWatchers TV. For our international friends, please note that additional shipping fees do apply and all prices listed are in US Dollars. The signs are everywhere. The prophetic puzzle is almost complete and yet so many are still asleep. That's why the Prophecy Watchers exists to shine a light in the darkness and help believers understand the lateness of the hour. We believe Jesus is coming soon and your support helps us us take this urgent message to the ends of the earth. If you haven't heard yet, Prophecy Watchers has taken a major step in bringing you all the latest news from the fascinating world of bible prophecy. On January 1st we launched our first substack page, a one stop shop where you can go for all the latest news, articles, videos, prophecy conferences, Q&As and speaking special prophecy presentations. Much of the content on our Substack page is completely free, allowing you to join Mondo, Gary, Joe and many of our friends in becoming a Bible Prophecy expert. Support the important End Times mission today by becoming a prophecy partner@propcywatchers.substack.com

A (12:30)

well welcome back. We are here with Lee Brainerd and as we said before the break, Lee, I want to talk as well about the pre Wrath Rapture. This is another viewpoint of the Rapture and maybe you can give us what are the typical four views of the Rapture. I mean people believe in the Rapture, it's in the Bible, but they have basically four views on it.

B (12:58)

Well the pre Tribulation Rapture says the church will go up prior to any of the 70th week, any of the seals, trumpets or bolts. Historically there was a view that was called the Mid Trib Rapture and they figured that the church would go up three and a half years in. So right in the middle that's kind of faded into view now. It's not an issue anymore really. Traditional post tribulationism says the church will go through the entire tribulation or the entire 70th week before she's raptured and then she's just going to go up and come right back down. Which to me actually really makes no sense because that'd be Like Noah gets deposited in the ark, safe on ground, the Lord raptures him up to heaven and sets him back down. Doesn't quite make sense. The one that's been giving the most trouble to dispensationalism and the pre Trib Rapture is the pre Wrath Rapture. It actually has an argument that seems relatively plausible when you first examine it. It says that the church is associated with the arrival of wrath. And they point to Revelation chapter six, the sixth seal. And they say, see, here's the arrival of wrath. This is where the church is. And it's created a great problem for

A (14:10)

the church as you see the whole development. We've been working on a documentary on that and really to respond to the pre Wrath position because again, these are brothers in the Lord, we love them and everything. But you spent, you, you, you gave a whole message on this and you're also working on a book.

B (14:26)

Yes.

A (14:27)

And which should be coming out soon. And so how did you, you know, it's a big topic. How did you, how did you address it? What were your kind of your main really talking points?

B (14:36)

There's been a number of authors that have addressed the pre Wrath Rapture and they've done a decent job of it, but they've essentially just re articulated the traditional positions for a pre Trib rapture, which is good information. But if a person has got the hook in their jaw of the pre Wrath Rapture theory, that's a really strong pull. And just our standard arguments for the pre Trib rapture just kind of go off of their back like water off a duck's back. So what I did is I pointed out that they have a technicality for the beginning of the day of the Lord. And that's what they're pointing in Revelation chapter 6 with the arrival of the sixth seal with the signs in the heavens, they say, see, this is where rather what I point out is there's really. That's a hyper technical distinction because if we look at how a regular day works, we have a morning star, we have the dawning of the day, we have the sunrise, and then we have the day proper. The day of the Lord works the same way. When the Lord comes from the church, it's presented in the Bible as the morning star. And then we have the dawning of the day of the Lord, which is the tribulation. And in second Thessalonians chapter two, and in first Thessalonians chapter five, we have the sunrise at the second coming. In Malachi chapter four, verses one, two and three, so what we're going to end up with then is the millennium is the presence of the Lord's day. When we go down this path, then we got to decide is the church associated with the actual arrival of the day or is it associated with the dawning of the day? Well, in scripture typology the church is associated with the dawning of the day. The first sign, the twinkling of the morning star. As soon as you go through that and then you look at those signs in the heavens, you do an exhaustive study in the Bible where those signs in the heavens appear. It's at the second coming. It's at the second coming in Matthew chapter 24. It's at the second coming In Joel chapter 2, verse Joel chapter 3. Once you see this very clearly, then that cannot be where the rapture of the church is, because that's the arrival of the fullness of the day, not the arrival of the dawning of the day.

A (16:58)

All of the positions are pre wrath. I mean, talk about that because we're pre wrath. Pre trib's pre wrath. The midrib is pre wrath. The pre wrath is pre wrath. Even the post rib they are maybe talk about that because they put the wrath of God as a single day at the end. So they're all pre wrath in one sense. It's just how we define wrath.

B (17:22)

Right, exactly. And so what happens is if you're looking at with the pre tribbers and you're saying, well the whole tribulation period is the wrath of God. That's true, but it's a partial picture. If you go with the post tribbers you say, well see, here's these handful of verses that show the wrath of God's arriving at the second coming. Well that's true, but it's a partial picture. And that's why I like this whole concept of the dawning of the day of the Lord from the twinkling of the morning star all the way to the sunrise. Because then you get every aspect of the approaching wrath of God and the arrival of the wrath of God.

A (17:57)

Yeah, I think that's what I've seen. That is really the most confusion with all this is, is how do we define the wrath of God? And unless you understand that it's very multifaceted, it comes in degrees. It comes in degrees. And that really is the kind of. That's the debate is the pre wrath will look at us and they don't like that we see the whole 70th week of Daniel or this seven year period as Wrath. And we go, yeah, but we also understand that it can't. It's not. Again, it's not just monolithic.

B (18:34)

That's right.

A (18:35)

It has. If you study just the word wrath, the wrath or the day of the Lord, you'll see that actually each group has some legitimacy in what they're arguing.

B (18:46)

That's right. If you don't have some ground of truth that you're misusing, you can't actually propagate false doctrine.

A (18:56)

So as we think about this, then what are some other, I would say, arguments or objections that you would have against the pre wrath position?

B (19:06)

Well, one of them is, we see the first seal where this is Revelation 4 and 5. We see the scroll of the title deed of the earth given to the Son by the Father. The Lamb opens up that first seal, it introduces the Antichrist. Now people will say, well, there's a distinction between the tribulation under the Antichrist and the wrath of God. Well, that's a reasonable consideration. But a reasonable consideration is not the same thing. It's biblically articulated fact. So if you go into second Thessalonians 2, we see in verse 3 that let no man deceive you by any means, for that day is not here. What day? The day of the Lord is not here, except the apostasy happen first and the man of sin be revealed. So that verse portrays the Antichrist himself as the definite manifestation or the definite proof that the world has entered the day of the Lord. I would also add that we see in the same chapter, Chapter two, that the Antichrist is presented as a judgment of God, that great delusion which is going to lead men to hell. That whole delusion is a judgment of God.

A (20:18)

Yeah, absolutely. And that really comes again, comes back to the key in all of this is, is in Revelation 6, when Jesus invites the living creature, one of the living creatures, to open the seal. Well, he opens the seal, but he invites. That's part of it. He invites him to part of it. Are those first seals part of the wrath of God? And how do we know?

B (20:42)

Well, I would say they're definitely the wrath of God first of all, for the reason that I just articulated that if the Antichrist and the great delusion of the Antichrist is a judgment from God, then the first seal is a judgment from God. And then I would also say if you look at the rest of the seals, you're seeing wars and rumors of wars, and you're seeing tragedies upon earth that are being unfolded at an unprecedented level, not like 20 or 30% above historical averages, not even 100% above historical averages. For instance, the fourth seal takes one quarter of the world's population. Assuming that we start with 8 billion, which is a little bit of an underestimate, you're going to see 2 billion people killed under the fourth seal alone. This is 20 times the highest death toll that I've seen for World War II.

A (21:36)

Yeah, and that's going to happen really in a very short period of time. It's enough to say where Jesus said if the time wasn't shortened to this seven year period, no flesh would survive. Well, we're going to take a little break here where you can see how to again get access to all the rest of the amazing topics that were covered at the Norman Conference. Take a listen

C (21:57)

we are living in an age of doctrinal confusion where opinions multiply, biblical facts are bent, and scriptural scripture is too often forced to serve an agenda rather than speak for itself. That confusion becomes especially clear when we wade into controversial subjects like Israel, the Rapture and the battle of Gog and Magog. These topics don't just spark debate, they often ignite division. So how do we cut through the noise and bring clarity back to Scripture? Enter one of our favorite Bible scholars, Lee Brainerd. Lee has produced a book on the 10 potent proofs for the Pre Tribulation Rapture in which he lays out the 10 strongest biblical arguments for the pre Trib position. Best of all, the book is written for everyday believers. You don't need to know Greek or Hebrew to follow the logic, just a desire to understand and defend the doctrine taught by the Apostle Paul. In a world drowning in confusion, this is exactly the kind of clarity the church needs. Lee was one of 25 trusted prophecy voices who came together to deliver 44 in depth messages to more than 1200 like minded believers, all with one shared to strengthen the church with Biblical truth and confidence in God's prophetic word. We've made all 44 messages available in our Victory in Jesus Prophecy Package, a 22 DVD collection offered for your gift of $100 or more with shipping included in the USA. And because equipping believers is the heart of this ministry, the package includes two powerful bonuses. The first is Lee Brainard's book 10 Potent Proofs for the Pre Tribulation Rapture. The book is available individually for $25 or more or get it as a free bonus in the Victory in Jesus Pro prophecy package. The second bonus is a 3 DVD teaching series from Mondo Gonzalez and Middle east expert Bill Salas Ezekiel 38 When God defends A deep and timely examination of the coming Gog and Magog conflict. This 3 DVD set is available for your gift of $30 or more or get it as a free bonus with a Victory in Jesus prophecy package. These resources aren't just products, their tools. Tools to help believers stand firm, test what they hear, and rightly divide the word of God in an increasingly deceptive world. Your support makes this possible. Every gift helps us continue bringing trusted teachers, hosting conferences, and delivering biblical truth to a generation that desperately needs it. Call us toll free at the number you see on the screen or visit us online at Prophecy Watchers TV for our international friends. Please note that additional shipping fees do apply and all prices listed are in US Dollars. Thank you for standing with us and may God bless you as we draw ever closer to the final days of the Church age.

A (24:58)

Well, welcome back. We are here with Lee Brainard and we have been discussing Gog and Magog. We've been discussing the pre Wrath Rapture, which were both topics of his messages at the Norman Conference. You know Lee, it reminds me here that, you know, you're going to have a lot of disagreement for all things. I mean that just is we believe in Jesus is Lord, but you and I both and maybe talk about this, how important is just hermeneutics and maybe define that well, how important is that to come to a proper understanding of Scripture?

B (25:28)

Well, it's absolutely essential. When we talk about hermeneutics, we're talking about the methodology that we're using when we approach the Bible, read the Bible, study the Bible, come to conclusions about what the Bible's teaching. And traditionally we would regard this as the literal hermeneutic, or we would technically call it the historical grammatical hermeneutic. This is approaching the Bible, assuming that it's going to be using basic Greek and basic Hebrew grammar, that it's going to be using the basic vocabulary, the Greek and Hebrew languages, and that it's going to be presenting things in a way that was intended to be understood, not intended to be confusing. And when we approach it from that way, and we take the Bible literally, it's a great blessing to us. I like to tell people approach the Bible with childlike faith, believing the plain statements of Scripture and then interpreting plain statements of Scripture with plain statements of scripture. This is 10 times more important than people agreeing with me. If they get this right, they're on the right direction.

A (26:27)

Yeah, I mean most of my adult life or really going back to school was hermeneutics Hermeneutics. How do we interpret any literature? Yeah, you know, you don't. It's not willy nilly. We don't just go there and just, you know, pick and choose and how it makes me feel or what I think is this. There is a way to understand literary documents. That's very typical, you know, and all this, Lee, I mean, you know, we, you know, you have, you have your own ministry. We have our ministry. You know, we share a ministry, you know, for the sake of the audience. Why are we here? Why are we doing this? I mean, what's the goal? Is it just simply to know who GOG is or what's the bigger picture here?

B (27:03)

Well, if it was for a paycheck, we both have different jobs.

A (27:06)

True.

B (27:06)

But we're here because we love the word of God. We love the message. It communicates both the gospel and the prophetic hope. And we want people to understand the word of God for the blessing that it will bring to them.

A (27:19)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that really is the key in all this. And, and Lee, I mean, looking forward to coming up in Colorado. Of course you're going to be here. We're doing a lot of projects together. But as always, we appreciate you watching today. And we are here, as Lee said, for the gospel. I mean, that's the reason this program is on the air, is to see the prophecies being unfolded. They all point to the person of Jesus Christ and it points to his second coming, but that just obviously points to his first coming, which is how he secured salvation for all of those who follow him. And so he came and died for our sins, was resurrected for our justification. And that is exactly what we want to proclaim today. And if you haven't put your faith and trust in him, now is the time. Prophecy is absolutely being unfolded as we talk, as we see. 2026 is going to be an amazing year. As always, it's going to supersede 2025. It's just the way it's been going now. So thank you so well for your prayers and your support for what we do here. We'll catch you next time.

C (28:19)

Prophecy Watchers is a viewer supported ministry made possible through the faithful support of friends like you. You can give easily by visiting prophecywatchers.com.