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- [00:00]
A
Welcome everyone to the program. Mondo Gonzalez here in studio, and I have with us our good friend Graham, all the way from England.
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B
Welcome, Graham. Thank you, Mondo. Good to join you again.
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A
And we are going to be discussing the entire background of the 144,000 and really just all the ways in which that can be understood. This very interesting group of people that we see very specifically in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14. And this is part two of our discussion. Before we do, I just want to let everybody know about a couple things. One of them is our conference coming up June 4th through 7th in Colorado Springs. Please join us. It's going to be a great time. You can go to prophecywatchers.com, scroll down and you'll see the banner, you'll get to see all the speakers that are going to be there. The titles are going to be up there very soon. Of course, we're going to have live stream available for that. It's always a great time to be in Colorado. So if you want to take a little trip or a little vacation, you get to climb up some 14,000 footers if you want. It's a great time to be there. The other thing I want to remind everybody about is our upcoming trip to Israel. We do have a trip in May which is full. And so because that trip got full, we decided, hey, well, let's do another trip. I love bringing people to the land of Israel. It's been a very big joy for me in my life having the privilege of bringing people there and having them experience the amazing nature of seeing Israel for the first time. We have a trip in January, late January of 2027, and it is really the perfect time to be there because it's cool, it's green, you'll see the flowers, and it really is Israel at its finest. And so you can go to israel2027.com and you can see all the details there. So I encourage you to join us. So, Graham, as we get as we kind of switch over here to thinking about the 144,000 for those that missed the previous episode that we did, maybe give us a little recap of that about what we covered and also where we're going, maybe even a big picture too of where we're going and then we can get into the themes of this topic.
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B
Yes. Thanks, Mondo. Yes. Well, obviously I'm going to encourage our new viewers to go and watch that. We, I get, I realized at the end of it we, I gave a lot of lot of material and we just we just, I, I rushed as much as I could through it because it was just, I felt I had to finish that. I think we did it for an hour, didn't we? So, yes. So, you know, to get the full story, it's. I would invite people to go and, and you know, watch that but just for a. The highlights of the, of the recap so we can then just launch into this second session because. So, you know, this is something I've been thinking about for quite a while, for a decade or so when I first began to look at this. But it's only really as I've under, you know, that it's that principle of line upon line, precept upon precept, as I've learned, as I've understood certain things that you come to it. You know, my understanding of this has, is blown up basically. And there's just such a lot to this where we're going certainly on basically the mystery is going to deepen a little bit and we're going to have to follow the breadcrumbs. And I think there is a divine reason for that and I will point that out why that is. So. So again, I think what we're doing is just inviting people just to. I did say we're going to throw the box out the window. Right. So just kind of the idea of the general. We believe in their literal men, they're not figurative. There are 144,000 from each of the 12 tribes. 12,000 from each tribe. And we believe they have an end time mission. My looking at this was all the contradictions that seemed to exist within the common dispensational model of the 144,000, you know, of future Jews being raised up. Because number one, where's the tribal allocation? Jesus is the only one who divides the. He comes back and he gathers and he divides the tribe. So, you know, you can. It's not DNA, it's not being divided on DNA. Right. So this is what modern Jews do a lot of times. And so maybe you can do the Levites, the Cohens. Yeah. With the Priestly, but there's really no way to divide up 12 different tribes. That DNA, I think has been all intermingled and lost. The other thing, of course, we spoke last week, the last time was about the idea of the first fruits. The other thing is a bit funny actually. It was, was, you know, if we, if we're looking at these future evangelists that God's going to raise, I'm thinking how on earth are they going to do it, you know, so when you're a busy man, Mondo, you know what it's like. You know, you got to, you got to sleep for seven hours. Well, you don't. You're on your telescope. But most people, you know, they got to sleep for seven hours. Then you got to get up and eat and shower. There's another hour gone. Then you've got to, then you might be able to get to work and do put seven hours in, but you're going to eat in between that. So. And, you know, toilet breaks and all of that. So how much of that is actually productive? You realize how unproductive we are as human beings, right? And then you have to, then you have to go home and, you know, then you've got to eat again and then you've got to rest. And so, you know, there's all that in terms of what they've got to achieve. And, and then how. How on earth are they going to get around? They're flying around on the Boeing Dreamliner. You know, it's just almost like it's, it's, you know, you can't eat, you can't buy or sell without the market. If you don't have the mark of the beast, you certainly can't fly international flights. So, you know, when you look at it just seemed a bit of a crazy scenario. So what we established last time was these men were the men that were raised as the first fruits at Jesus resurrection. So just to recap our story that what took.
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A
Let me, let me, let me jump in just real quick. I want to just get some clarity. These are men that were raised after Jesus was resurrected. Now, are they raised into their glorified bodies?
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Okay, just so they're, they're not, they're not going to be subject to death or decay or anything else. This isn't like Lazarus being raised up and then dying again. So they're raised up in glorified bodies as the first fruits after Jesus was resurrected.
- [07:05]
B
Well, and it's that idea of where Jesus says, unless a grain of wheat I love, unless a grain of wheat abides, falls to the ground and dies, it abides alone. As soon as Jesus came out of their grave, he's thinking, no, I'm not doing this alone. I'm not going to be the only resurrected man for the next 2000 years. I think we'll just raise some other people. He didn't think like that. That's kind of like, you know, went through my head when he's thinking about, no, we're Going to get this show on the road, this resurrection, this second Adam show is not just me. It's me and a whole lot of others. But it's not just that. There's an end time ministry too. And I think we will be able to, hopefully we follow the breadcrumbs and we will see that. Because what we have to understand, Mondo, is the tribulation period. It's as supernatural as you can get.
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Yeah, 100%.
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B
We're still thinking Russia with all the Apache helicopters, all of those sort of things. You talk about how the Western mind thinks. But this thing is, I think we've learned those, are studying this, have come to the realization we're. This is going to get as supernatural as it can get. The veil between the other world and this world is almost rolled up. There are angels flying around preaching the gospel, There are angels walking on the earth. I mean, it's incredibly supernatural. So if we can take a supernatural view of what God has in store for this period of time, he's already got messengers prepared. So this is kind of what our little, our little excurses here, we're trying to find out where they are. And I think they're all over the Old Testament.
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A
So let me ask another question. Just, I'm thinking like the person watching, just so they understand the foundation. So the framework goes again, goes back. The idea then is that at the time of the resurrection, okay, did Jesus raise at that time all 144,000 at once? Or is this like Jehovah's Witness theology that through the church age, he's doing this. So help us be very, very specific so that people understand the framework.
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B
Yeah, we're not, we're not JWs. No, he, he. These are first fruits. So you mentioned about the category, Jesus the first fruit. Pa. And then Paul says those who belong to Christ at his coming. So that would be all the living and then he's bringing the dead with him. Right. So that's not the first fruit. We're all part of the first resurrection. Right. So that's different language in the Apocalypse. We're all part of the first resurrection. But you have the first fruits of the first resurrection and it's that. And the fact is, I don't think you can come to any other conclusion than if we go down this route. And I think for me, it kind of like screams at me a little bit on this one is that when you look at this and you decide men are non angels in the gospel narratives, that, you know, one young man is Sitting, two men are standing. They can't be the same characters. You have the angel, the angel sat on the. He rolled the stone away. He sat on the rock. He's a different person. And then you have, in John's account, you have the two angels sat where Jesus body had lain. And we sort of went into the whole. The imagery there of the ark, of the covenant, of the mercy seat and Jesus. And so, you know, the cherubim is enthroned. We touched on that. And I think that's a fascinating narrative here. And I think if people can, if we can get the Joshua narrative in our heads, what's actually gone on? So, yeah, nobody can make a claim that they're going to be part of 144,000. It's done. It's. It's a deal. It's happened. We're just trying to figure out is there a clue as to when. So if they were raised in the past, which is what I'm positing, then they must have lived further back. So now we're going to try and find out when they lived. So.
- [11:52]
A
All right, another question just for clarity. So, and then. So they were raised. These. All 144,000 were raised after. Again, we know Jesus was first, but right at that time, he raised them up. Then did they ascend into heaven with him? Is that where they're at now?
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B
Mystery? Because there are some strange words in the text, which there are certain things I don't know that I can be. We can be definitive about, or I say I can be definitive about. So I'm just going to leave it. I'm leaving. I'm leaving it hanging there for us, you know, for people to think about. But there is, there is some strange. There, there a strange phrase in the text. So. But I don't want to get to the end of the story before we.
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Okay.
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Before we get to.
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I just know people are thinking it. My job's the interview, right.
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I want to.
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I gotta ask you what they're thinking.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
Okay, so let's jump into the, let's jump into the background like you said, is. Is who are these people? Do we have any hints of who Jesus might have raised from the dead at that time?
- [12:59]
B
Yeah, so. So John. So see, John is the one who recalls Jesus saying. He says, where Jesus says the hour is coming and now is. So there's a coming hour and there is a now is hour. Right. And the hour is coming and now is when those who are in the tombs will hear the voice of the Son of God and live. So there was a. We know that's coming for when he brings the dead with him at his return, right, they're going to hear his, His. His voice from the tombs. But we know that there were. The tombs were opened at Jesus crucifixion, Matthew 27. Yeah, but nobody came out because Jesus is the forerunner of the first fruits. But when he does that now, the text doesn't say he raised 144,000. I'm just saying we've got three there. We've got two at the Ascension. Maybe they're different men, but they're men. And then we have all of those who are going into the city visiting, and it's not Uncle Harry coming to visit, you know. So these are sent with a particular mission. These are messengers sent with a particular mission, which is why we go back into the Old Testament. I think we could connect some pretty serious dots on this. But what. See what Jesus is doing. So Joshua, we spoke about Joshua. So Joshua's story is he inherits the mess that Moses couldn't solve, right? And you can understand actually, when you actually realize what this rebellion generation, this rebellious generation did, you can understand now because God knew what was in their hearts, says, I'm going to wipe them out. And Moses, I'm going to start with you, because we think that is. Well, that's a bit, you know, that's a bit much really, Lord, isn't it? And Moses remonstrated and said, now, Lord, they're your people. But at the end of that 40 years, we read there they had refused to circumcise their children. And that's just like, oh, yeah, we forgot we're in the wilderness. That's not that they were literally rejecting the covenant. They were actually saying, moses, we're done here. We're done with you and your God. We're done with. If we're not going to the promised land, neither are our children going to the promised Land. We. They're even rejecting the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision. That's what's happening there, right? So in other words, they are all illegitimate. So it puts God in a bind, right? But God has a plan up his sleeve, as he always does, to say, no, the judgment was on that rebellious generation. And that's why Hebrews makes such a. An example of these. Do not be like those who. In the wilderness, who, who just. And every time, their hearts were hardened every single time. So you can see why God knew where they were, where they would end up, they were, they were rejecting the covenant. Everything, Law Sinai, everything. We're done, we're finished. And our children are not going to be part of this either. So. But what's interesting, Mondo, isn't it? I thought this was quite interesting, is that Joshua leads them across illegitimate into the land, except for him and Caleb and their families. Maybe there were some others, but for the most part they were not. And it says when they got across the Jordan into the promised land, they were covenant breakers. They were not covenant. God had no obligation to take them into that promised land because they were covenant breakers, you know, because they, and some of those men would have been 30, 35 years of age. And then they get over and Joshua says, right now we also now, now we need to circumcise everyone. And so, you know, there's a little painful operation at 35, isn't it? But, but the point.
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Or older, right, because it says they were at the time of the judgment. It says anybody 20 and younger. So it's. I think it's possible that then they spent 38 more years in there. Yeah, you could have been 58, right. You know, if you were, if you were, you know, at 19.5 at the time of the judgment. Right. So that's. But still you would have remembered, you would lived your entire adult life from, from 20 up, you know, 19 up in the land. So here you are 57, you're coming across and you're getting circumcised. Yikes.
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B
Yeah. So this is a resentful people, a resentful nation resenting their covenants. And of course Moses, we know, doesn't go across, so he sends Joshua across. And so that gives a bit of lie to the notion that, well, God would never lead, you know, his people into their land in disobedience. Right, okay. That's a modern day argument as well, isn't it?
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Yep, exactly.
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That's exactly what he did. He led covenant breaking people into the promised land. And then he said, right, Josh said, right, now's the time we have to re establish the covenant with circumcision within the nation. Because it all hinges on that with Abraham and with Moses and recommit this nation to God. And so what happens is Joshua then picks up the stones, he sends 12 men into the stones, they go to this place, they put it on the other side of Jericho, just before Jericho called Gilgal. We learned that the Gilgal means the place of rolling. And so this becomes the place where the ark of the covenant is kept. This becomes the place where they have the council. This is kind of a bit like their first temple in the land. It's the meeting place. And so what is Joshua doing there? He's legitimizing the tribes of Israel because they were illegitimate. He's legitimizing the tribes of Israel with the memorial stones and then obviously with the circumcision. And now they're ready to go. And they're ready to go and then drive out the inhabitants of the land. Well, now we fast forward that, and of course, we saw that it was the Ark of the Covenant in the middle of the Jordan. Right. And here's something else I didn't touch on, but I think I was thinking about. It's pretty interesting. So why, when they went, the priests put their feet into the river. Why did the river part with the feet? Is because they were bearing the ark. So we learned that the Ark of the Covenant is God's. It's where he's enthroned. Right. But it's also his footstool. Well, how's that? So, I mean, so imagine. Imagine like a king, okay? We have a king here. So imagine in the old days, the regal king, he sits on his throne and he puts his foot on a footstool. Well, a footstool is as much a part of the throne as the back of the chair or what have you, or the seat, right? It's all part of the throne. So what happens? So when. And the priests, they're the ones allocated to bear the Ark of the Covenant. So any. So in that sense, what happens? The priests themselves become part of the footstool. They become part of the ark. They're not detached. It's not like, oh, let's get this thing across. They're commissioned to that. And so when the. When the priests put their feet in the water, it's like God is putting his feet in the water because they are bearing the ark. Right. That's really important imagery because the same thing happens with the high priest. So when the high priest is offering, he puts on the white linen. Right? When the high priest goes behind the veil, he puts on the white linen. And there's a whole. There's a whole study I did on this and some reading on this where it's the priest himself who also makes atonement. It's always incarnational. You know, the priest becomes part. The priest actually becomes part of the sacrifice because, as we know, is that what happens? He takes the blood behind the veil and he sprinkles seven times. Well, there's blood flying everywhere. Right. It's not. So he's put on this white linen cloth. So he becomes part of the sacrifice as well, because he himself is covered with blood. Right. And so it's not a detachment. This is a very incarnational atonement which is happening through the ark of the covenant, where God is enthroned, where his footstool is, et cetera. So we saw that imagery of Jesus in, you know, when Jesus is crucified, he's crucified naked. But when Joseph, he takes Jesus and he puts him in the tomb and he puts that the linen cloth, and the cloth itself begins to. The blood seeps through into the cloth, and we have that, the shroud. And that's why I said it just is fascinating when you think of that the shroud is actually an atonement cloth. Because Jesus and the fact that Caiaphas has said, you know what? This man's gotta die. Because if he doesn't, we're going to. The Romans are going to take away our place, take away and all that. So get rid of him. And so at the moment that Jesus is got rid of, the veil is rent. Caiaphas loses his place of atonement. Right. And Jesus really has been functioning this way through his entire ministry. He's laid in the tomb behind another holy of holies. And the high priest who said. It was the high priest who said, but a God on that stone, that nobody goes in there. He doesn't know. He's sealing. He's sealing the sacrifice, he's sealing the high priest, he's sealing the atonement behind the tomb. And so everything that Jesus is doing, he's doing from a place of atonement. And so when he comes out. This is why I wanted to cover this. When he comes out of the tomb, the angels sat there either side of him. It's a picture of the mercy seat. But of course, he's gone and he folds up. Whoever folded. I'm sure Jesus folded up the cloth, left it there for us to think about it for the next 2,000 years. Right, exactly. And so and he comes and at that moment, he raises the stones of Israel, he raises the sons of Israel. What's he doing? He's doing what Joshua did. He's legitimizing the children of Israel, he's legitimizing the tribes of Israel. It just kind of blows it out of the water. The idea of God is finished with Israel. Yeah. Which is why, you know, you. Oh, you hear me say it all the time. Jesus is always doing Israel because that's what he's been sent to do. So he's legitimizing these tribes. And so in Paul's language, it's the glory to the Jew first and then the Gentile, the wrath to the Jew first and to the Gentile. So no Gentile can get in this 144,000. So that's just kind of thinking of people thinking, can I be one of them? These were men that were raised in the past and then they lived in the past. So we're going to try and find out. But, you know, I hope that's kind of covered it a bit because the narrative is so magnificent for me, it's so. It's incredible. I love this book. I love this narrative. I loved the treasures in here. When you see how dots connected, how narratives intertwine, which is why I said, you know, sometimes if we just stay on the surface, oh, we've got 100,000 people in the tribulation. They're gonna go around and get people sa. There's a whole lot of stuff going on. So Jesus, the greater Joshua, is doing his work here because he's also the ark of the covenant. So Jesus is always in his place. So Mary says, ah, they've taken him in his place. And she doesn't realize how wrong she could be because Jesus is never out of place ever. So they say, go to the feast, Jesus, you gotta go to the feast. No, you go to the feast. It's not my time, it's not my place. So when he's hanging on the cross, it's his place. When he's behind the tomb, in the tomb behind the stone, it's his place. But the time of rolling away of the stone, or what Joshua does, because what God says to Joshua at the end when they circumcise them all, and then they have the Passover. Interesting. And again, it's the 10th day, the 14th day. Jesus comes into Jerusalem on the 10th day and he's crucified on the 14th. I mean, it's just there. It's all there. And so Jesus is doing Joshua, he's legitimizing Israel, but what Israel is he legitimizing? So that's kind of where we get into. So when she says, if you just tell me where you put him, you know, I mean, it's just beautiful, you know, her grief and her love for her Lord. And Jesus had to say, mary, you know, and then he says, but don't hold onto me, because I'm Going to my place. I've not yet ascended to the Father. Go tell your disciple, your brothers, that I'm ascending to my God and to your God, my Father, and your Father, to my God and your God. I mean, it's just like. It's just incredible. Again, legitimization, language. He's my God and he's yours. He's my Father and he's yours because of what I've done. So that's kind of. That's the bigger narrative. So I hope. So is that good enough? Is that. Have we kind of.
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A
Yeah, I mean, that's. We're setting the stage because the next question, the next thought is, is, okay, you have all of this going on. You have all these, you know, harmonious and sometimes challenging, complex, complicated narratives. And again, this is. This is like theology 501. This isn't 101. This isn't, you know, the basic gospel. You know, Jesus loves you and died for you. I mean, that's obviously the foundation. But this is where we're getting into some of the corners, which we love to do. We love to go deep. And so in that. In that mind, and I think, too, especially as we talked last time, is, you know, there's always. There's always something to learn. And, and I just encourage people to remove some of the. The boxes for now. I mean, we're not promoting heresia of any kind. Jesus is Lord, but it's more a matter of what. What could it be? Do. Do we have a full grasp of the 144,000?
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And.
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A
And what does the text say? How can we go there? How can we see some of the parallels? Like you mentioned, the patterns from Joshua to Joshua? I mean, Jesus's name, as you said, Yehoshua, Yeshua, you see this over and over. I think it's important for us to kind of, you know, keep our minds open to say, okay, but what else. What else could it be? And I think God does reward those who diligently seek him, as we know, Hebrews 11, 6. So in that regard, let's segue in for the last half of this episode
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here
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A
in some of those ideas.
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B
All right, so Zechariah 9, 16, right? We're going to weave our way through into the Old Testament. It says on that day, kind of when you hear that day, it's Day of the Lord language, more or less, but it kind of goes back to another. We did a whole series on the day of the Lord, right? So again, the narrative's there. It's not just day of the Lord. That's. That's kind of sometime in the future. And it's just like we're conditioned to think that way because I don't. Maybe it's easier for us to do that, but. But the Bible's not written that way. So when Jesus comes, he comes as the messenger, as Malachi's messenger. He comes bringing the day of the Lord. Right? That was. If anybody's interested, they can go and listen to our series. It says, on that day, the Lord their God will save them as the flock of his people. Now, when we look at these scriptures now, Mondo, what I want us to do is I want us to think specifically the 144,000. Just specifically, right, there's the general flock, the flock of Israel, et cetera, but specifically the 144,000. On that day, the Lord their God will save them as the flock of his people. For like the jewels of a crown, they shall shine on his land. So the men, it says the two men were dazzling or the other one was in white. It's the starte. It's the shining. It's the idea in the gospels.
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This is in the gospel, this is in the resurrection narrative.
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Talks about these two men dazzling apparel, right? In other words, they're shining. It's the same language that's used of Jesus when he's transfigured before them on the mount of transfiguration. And he's dazzling white, he's shining. That's the same language, certainly for the two. And the other guy, it just says that the young man was in white. But again, the implication there is shining. It says for light, the jewels of a crown. Interesting. Just a little cross reference in my step Bible where it has the Greek, what the Greek means or the Hebrew means, in this case, the jewels of the crown equals the stones of consecration. So, okay, jewels, stones of a crown, consecration. So when people think about a crown, we just had a. We had a coronation a couple of years ago with Charles, right. So what happens when a king is crowned, goes through a process of coronation and of consecration. Excuse me, should I say consecrated to that throne, to that. And then he would be given a crown, right? The crown of King Edward or whatever crown he was, whatever king of whatever house. But here. So it says that these, on the day of the Lord their God will save them as the flock of his people fall out the jewels of a crown. So there's a little first trail on our path when we're looking at this 144,000. So these are the stones of consecration. That's exactly what Joshua did. Right? It's exactly what Jesus is doing when he's raising these sons. They are stones of consecration. So, you know, where else do we read that about the crown? Because it's an interesting motif. So in Revelation, chapter 12, verse 1, people will be aware that you have the woman and she's crowned. She has a crown of 12 stars. So again, we're going to try and link that in. And it says she's also clothed with the sun. So there's an element thereof. There's glory, there's shining, and on her head is the crown of 12 stars. We've discussed this before. It's nothing. It's not wrong to say it's Israel. But you don't. I don't think you get the full narrative until you actually see that the woman there is Jerusalem. The woman. Because in Ezekiel, I think It's Ezekiel, chapter 16, she wears the crown. You see that all the way through the Old Testament, the woman wearing the crown. So in other words, Jerusalem is wearing the crown of 12 stars, specifically Jerusalem. So we're going to try and go to try and find out why that is. Now, what's interesting in Isaiah 21, Isaiah 28:1, and I'll just go there quickly. The tribes, as we know, were split into two kingdoms, right? The ten northern and the two southern tribes. The kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. The kingdom of Israel was kind of apostate right from the outset, really, even from Jeroboam, who introduced idolatry. The kingdom of Judah kind of maintained a bit of a. The pendulum swung for Judah, good and bad, but for Israel, it was always permanently bad. It seemed like. I don't think they ever had a good king in Israel.
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No, none in the north for sure.
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28 1. But that kingdom was known as Ephraim because Ephraim was. You just have to keep going deeper and deeper into the narrative. So Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, and Jacob adopted those two sons as his own. So we talk about the 12 tribes of Israel, but there are always 13. Okay, so people don't really maybe make that connection. There are always 13 tribes because Joseph becomes two tribes because Joseph receives. He's the firstborn. He receives the firstborn blessing, the firstborn birthright, because Reuben gives it up because of the stuff that he does. He does. But Joseph is also the firstborn of Jacob's first love, Rachel. Right. But Joseph is the beloved son. He's given the. Given the robe Interesting. The brothers mixed. Put the robe in. They put blood on it, don't they, to say he's been killed. Of course, one of Jesus titles is the son of Joseph, but we just go down another rabbit hole. But the northern tribe, when Joseph brings his sons to Jacob, his father, to bless the sons, Manasseh is the oldest, Ephraim is the youngest. And he goes, okay, so he's gonna get the Anassar. And he's got. When he. As he brings his boys to Jacob. Jacob, I think he's blind at this time. Is he blind at this time? I think he is, yeah. He's.
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Yeah, he can't see very well.
- [37:03]
B
He crosses his hands to. Much to the annoyance and despair of Joseph, because he's. No, this is wrong, dad. He's doing that by the spirit of God. And then prophecies come for all the sons. So Ephraim is the one who. He receives the greater blessing in the twofold portion that Joseph receives. Right. And that's going to translate into land and everything. So that kingdom in the north also becomes known. Becomes known as the kingdom of Ephraim. Ephraim is the tribe which wears the crown of the northern kingdom. So Jeroboam was an Ephraimite, so was Ahab was an Ephraimite. It doesn't say every tribe, every king there. They don't really track the lineage of all the kings of the northern tribes. But there are some bad eggs there, certainly from Ephraim and of course, Samaria. Ephraim. So Ephraim is. It's. It's. It wears the crown of the northern kingdom. So when we get to Isaiah here 28:1, God is remonstrating now against them. He says, ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim and the fading flower of its glorious beauty which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with. With wine. Behold the Lord who has. Has one who is mighty and strong like. Like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest that's. Like a storm of mighty overflowing waters. He cast down to the earth with his hand. The proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim will be trodden underfoot. And the fading flower of its glorious beauty which is on the head of the rich valley, will be like a first raptor before summer. In other words, Ephraim loses its crown. So Ephraim is. It represents the ten northern tribes. Right? Which is why I say I think it's important when you see that the woman in Revelation chapter 12 is Jerusalem it's not Samaria, it's not Bethel, she is Jerusalem. And Jerusalem wears the crown of the 12 of 12 tribes. And we have to figure out what 12 tribes might that crown be represented in that crown. But it's. Yeah. So which tribe has been excluded? So when we go to the tribal listings, Mondo In Revelation chapter 7, it's long been noted here of there are 12 tribes listed, but the 12 tribes that are but the two tribes that are not mentioned in the Revelation 7 with 144,000 and it's common knowledge are Dan, the tribe of Dan, and the tribe of Ephraim. Well, we can understand. Okay, let's go to Dan first. The general consensus here with Dan is because Dan is the, is the tribe which introduced idolatry into Israel, it had the golden calf up north, etc. Which is why a lot of, a lot of people, scholars, some or some scholars believe the Antichrist is going to come out of the tribe of Dan, what have you. It was virtually an apostate. It's an apostate tribe. So. But they are not represented here in the Twelve Tribes of Revelation 7:3, concerning 144,000, you know who else is not mentioned? Ephraim. Right. So I'll just run through them. Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, the other son, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin. So what's happened to Ephraim in this connection, in this particular portion here? Why, why are they excluded? There are no denites in the 144,000. Why are there no. Why is Ephraim excluded? Well, I think what's going on here is that if because Ephraim has been denounced, his crown has been removed, the crown now will only ever be on Jerusalem. But there was always a remnant of Ephraimites as they were with all of the tribes. And so Ephraimite reverts back here because Ephraimite is the drunkard. It's the apostate kingdom. It's finished. You have no more place in the crown. But it refers here to Joseph, which is a possible, I think, which is a reference, Mondo, to the Ephraimite remnant, who are no longer going to be called Ephraimites. They're now going to be of the tribe of Joseph. It reverts back to their father Joseph. And I think what this tribal breakdown here does for us, I think it gives us a clue as to when these men may have been sealed, because that's another mystery. So how we read the book of Revelation, right? This is going to come down to how we read the book of Revelation. Some people say, well, it's kind of all future, so they're going to be sealed in the future and be raised in the future, et cetera. Well, if we've already established our repositing, for me, that they've already been raised, that means they've already lived, they've already died, so they've already been sealed. So when Jesus says to John, he says, write what you see. Is John only ever seeing stuff in the future or is he just seeing stuff? He said Jesus said the things that are and the things that will take place after this. And I think John is being given a narrative where he's able to look back. So when he says here in Revelation, chapter seven, he just says, after this. I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or seal against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun with the seal of. Of the living God. And he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, do not harm the earth, etc. Till we have sealed the servants of our God. Now, John doesn't see the sealing. He just sees this interaction. He hears this interaction, and then he hears a number 144,000. So that's all John is saying. He said, write it, John. Write what you see, write what you hear, the things that are and the things that are to come after this. So in other words, somehow this is spanning a narrative of the 144,000 from when they were sealed to the end of time and a future ministry. So kind of getting that thinking in that framework, it does open things up. So, you know, as you know, we discussed this. There's a bit of a Myth about the 10 lost tribes that when they were dispersed, you know, they'd gone, they went into the ether. We don't know what's happened to them. That's just not true. The text itself says it's not true because they were always refuge. There were refugees and remnants which fled out of Israel when they saw the writing on the wall to take something from Daniel, and they fled. And so they were. They were, they were. They were railing, they were crying against the kingdom of Israel, but they knew that Israel was finished, the king, the 10 northern tribes. And so they fled. And you find this at the time of Hezekiah. And they're actually mentioned in I think it's second Chronicles, chapter 20. Should we have a little look there? Because I just want to invite people to think the narrative is not kind of maybe how we think, how it's been told. And all we're doing is looking at the text. We're not inventing anything. We're just looking at the text. And so when you get to 2 Chronicles, chapter 20, think I can find Chronicles in my Bible, Monda. Here we go. It says here. Here we go. So Hezekiah. Hezekiah is reigning after Israel has been scattered, dispersed, after Samaria has gone, after Ephraim has lost the crown. Right. And it mentions here in 2 Chronicles 30. Let me just try and get this one here. So Hezekiah throws a big Passover thing, and it says that the tribes that were there. And I'm just going to read verse 18 for the majority of the people, many of them from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves yet they ate the Passover otherwise than as prescribed. For Hezekiah had prayed for them, saying, may the good Lord pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God the Lord and his fathers, even though not according to the sanctuary's rule of cleanliness. The point trying to get to here, Mondo, is the tribes are existing. There's a remnant of the tribes. Now we've got 1, 2, 3, 4. Only four tribes mentioned there. We've got also Judah and Benjamin are already in the southern kingdom. 6. There's no reason to think that the other tribes are not represented, other than quite possibly the tribe of Dan. And so I think there's another one where it talks about the tribes of Asher. And I think that might be a little bit further up. But can you see the point I'm trying to make with these, that these tribes, when Israel was denounced and Ephraim lost its crown, and we're talking 721, isn't it? 722. 721 BC with Assyria, those who were devout within those tribes fled to the kingdom of Judah, and they're already down there. So immediately we can think, okay, from the time of 722 to the time of when quite possibly the ceiling of this 144,000 happens, there is possibly 80, 90 years have elapsed. So where are they living in this time period? Where have the remnant of the tribes set up home? So it's interesting, I did a little digging around. Well, you're an archeologist. Hezekiah's Wall. Right. So I just did some search on. You can maybe speak to this. I did a search on Google on this. Is that there's some debate because Hezekiah, they've uncovered Hezekiah's wall on Mount Zion. I thought Mount Zion was a fairly new thing, but by the time of Jesus, Mount Zion was already known as Mount Zion. And we're talking the present Mount Zion that we know today, which is the hill just outside. Well, when I did a little bit of research on this, just. And it wasn't. Is that one of the ideas posited is that Hezekiah built the wall because at the time of the Assyrian invasion, Sennacherib and all that, he's coming to take Jerusalem. So he fortifies the wall. But because of all the refugees that had come down from the Northern Kingdom, Hezekiah extended the city walls to incorporate them. So there's a strong possibility that these tribes have made their home on Mount Zion. So when you get. I know where you're going to Zechariah 14, and you're thinking, what's this thing with Mount Zion? Not Zechariah, Revelation 14, the Lamb on Mount Zion. Now it's talking about there. It seems to be talking about the heavenly mountain Zion, but they have an association with Mount Zion. So I think this, this. These breadcrumbs are just leading us down into a period where this ceiling may have. May have happened. Who. So who are the sealed. Let's. Let's look at another mystery, because you raised this on the last one. Who are the seals? So if we look at Revelation 14, there's a very, very strange thing going on here. I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name, his father's name, written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the roar of many waters, like the sound of a lamb thunder. So they're all singing. These guys like to sing, by the way. They're always singing. No one could learn that song except the 144th. And you know why they're always singing? Because we've entitled this episode as Mourning for Zion. Because these men had seen what had happened to their kingdom up north, and they could not prevent it, they could not stop it. And they take it now upon themselves, and they become those who are mourning for Zion. So when we see them, and you see that in the Old Testament, in Isaiah particular, but when you see them here, of course, now they're singing Morning is for a season, what's the expression.
- [52:12]
A
Well, there's a season for everything, right? Ecclesiastes.
- [52:14]
B
Morning, morning. And then joy comes in the morning, right? Yeah, something like that. And I've got all my scriptures mixed up there, but there's the mourning and then there's the joy. So thinking about these men on Mount Zion, earthly Mount Zion, mourning for Jerusalem, mourning for how Jerusalem is going to be destroyed trying to save the city. And so here's where it gets really weird. It says no one could learn that song except the 144,000 had been redeemed from the earth which touched on that last time. It is these Mondo have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the lamb wherever he goes. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. So what could that possibly mean? You're a married man, right? I've met your beautiful wife. Lovely person, you know, if you were. I mean, we're near. We're nearly at Valentine's, right? Okay. You were to go home and you were to say to her, you know, you are the source of my defilement.
- [53:35]
A
Yeah.
- [53:35]
B
You know what I mean? Or you were to go to your
- [53:38]
A
interesting phraseology for sure.
- [53:39]
B
You were going. You got to go to your children. You know, you got daughters, right? You got your daughters. There's. Well, you're the offspring of my divine, of my defilement. It's like just. You can't cut that Anyway, right? So I want to get into the New Testament, of course. You know, I got. Paul talks about the marriage bed undefiled. So what. What's going on here where it says they. They would not. They are. They would. They have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. Problem for Israel was always foreign women, right? And of course, they were told that don't marry foreign women because they will lead you astray. It was a duty of every Israelite to marry and to bring forth offspring as a divine. Not only divine prerogative, but as an injunction. This is what you do because you have to raise up seed to Abraham and Jesus. God also said that I am the third part of your union. Why? Because I wanted godly offspring. So it can't be just normal marriage within the normal covenant relationships of Israel, right? That's what they were meant to do. They were meant to get married. They were meant to have children. And if you did not have children, like Samuel's mother, it was a reproach. God has shot your womb, right? This is how they saw it. So we have to look at this phrase in a way that may be a little bit different. Just thinking, oh, people did want to get married. No, they have made a decision here that they are not going to defile themselves with the women with the marriage and raising up children to destruction effectively. And I think, where can we look back again into this, into this period of Israel's history where that is just. It's a plague in Israel. But what they appear to have done. And Jesus makes a very strange statement in Matthew 19:12. I thought about it for years. He said, when he's talking about marriage and divorce, well, it's best not then, not to get married then, isn't there? And Jesus makes this phrase. He said, there are those who are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs. By who? There are those who are born eunuchs. There's something wrong with your genitals. I mean, we just have to say what it is, right? There are those who've been made eunuchs by men, in other words. So when an army would come and conquer, they would conquer the sons and castrate the sons so they couldn't produce more sons to continue the nation and continue the rebellion. If you know, my sons will continue the fight against, against this, against this domination. So castration. The Assyrians apparently practiced castration quite significantly. The Israelites never practiced castration. It was just not part of their culture. Why? Because you've got to raise up sons. And if you were, if you had any kind of genital mutilation, even born with it, you are an outcast in Israel. You were considered. That's in the law. You were an outcast from. You could not partake of the assembly of Israel. So that's how the procreation, that's how they were. That's just their thinking. But Jesus said, but there are those who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. Now he's talking to Jews, he's not talking to Christians, to Gentiles who made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. And I think that is the source of that phrase because either for temptations purposes or even just to actually, you know, like when the people in the wilderness said in rebellion, they said that we are not going to circumcise our children. We're going to be illegitimate. These men effectively made themselves illegitimate. They cut themselves off. The assembly of Israel almost not to be part of what the nation was doing. We're not going to bring children into. It was bad. I mean, at the time where we're talking now, we're talking now Jeremiah and Ezekiel's visions of what's going on in the temple. I mean, this is an apostate. Judah now is an apostate kingdom. And the sin is so bad. And so what appears to have happened is that these men had made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. They were not going to defile themselves with women. They were no longer going to raise up seed of Abraham because the nation was completely apostate, but not in rebellion, in mourning. Right. So in the same way, I don't know, I mean, obviously these were young men at the time because none of them had married. And so some sort of movement, some sort of revival under some sort of prophetic mandate happened at this particular time. And I tell you, I think I know, you know why maybe at this particular time. Because when I looked at this Mondo and I thought, well, you look at Ezekiel 9 and when Ezekiel 9. Ezekiel 9. Yeah. Ezekiel 9 with the ceiling. You had the man with the writing case, the man clothed in linen with the writing case. Very interesting individual. And Ezekiel sees this vision and the executioners of the city were coming into Jerusalem. It's a vision. And he sees the executioners and go and kill. It's judgment on the city itself. But then before that, a man arrives with a writing case and he says, but before you go ahead and do that, you go ahead and you go and put a mark on the foreheads of those who are mourning or crying out for the city. You put a seal on them first. I thought, well, maybe that is that moment that that's happening, but I don't think it is. But it gives me some kind of lean towards the fact that something like this was happening at that particular time. It's the only time. And when scholars look at Revelation 14. No, Revelation 7, they tie it back to Ezekiel 9. That's the ceiling. Somehow John is connecting this. So in this particular period of history, however we can, we can locate it, and it gets more and more difficult to locate, is that something is going on where if it's not Ezekiel 9, there is a ceiling going on in Ezekiel 9. And we don't know how those men, the. The others were executed. It was a violent, violent death. Who the executioners were, and we don't know who. Who the seal, the sealed were. But we do know why they were sealed. They were sealed because they were mourning for Jerusalem. Mourning, positive mourning for the sin, mourning for the city, because the city is over. This thing is judgment. What happened with Ephraim is now going to happen with Jerusalem. And these men have seen what happened to their kingdom, and they've lived as refugees in this southern kingdom. But the destiny of their destiny. They have no idea what their destiny is going to be. But they are just. They are just. This is how we are going to show that. What is where this kingdom is going? It's all wrong. It's destined for judgment. Do you want to kind of say something to that? Because we can dig a little bit further into this.
- [62:32]
A
You know, it's pretty amazing, Graham, all of these tie ins from scripture. There's no doubt that John is the most. The. The go. The revelation of John is the most thoroughly Old Testament book. There's over 800 allusions at least to this. And so, you know, this kind of brings us to a good closing spot. And so why don't you kind of wrap it up for us and then we can think about where we're going for the next session.
- [63:00]
B
Yeah, I think this scripture will tie it all together with what I was saying. The idea being a eunuch, you're excommunicating yourself from the assembly of Israel. So these people are outcasts within Israel itself. Thus says the Lord. Keep justice and do righteousness. For soon my salvation will come and my deliverance be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this and the Son of man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath not profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil. Isaiah 56:1. Isaiah seems to be the reference, the reference point for these guys. For this. Thus says the Lord to the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters. I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. Because if you don't produce in Israel, your name is cut off in Israel. You're cut off from the assembly. This is why they were told. Again, sorry. They were told that if a brother dies without children that issue, then his brother takes the widow and raises up children for his brother so that his even. Even though he's got. He might have his own wife, so that his brother's name will not be cut off from Israel. This is what is being promised here to you eunuchs. Your name's cut off. You're now outcasts. But I got something. My redemption is coming. I will give him my house within my walls, a monument and a name better than sons and daughters. Now go to Revelation 14 in your head and see the name on the forehead, the name of the Father, the name of the city, the name, just the name. I'd give them a name. Eunuchs. Mondo. 144,000 eunuchs consecrated stones, they consecrated themselves, they made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God, for the sake, for the, for in opposition to the degradation and the apostasy of the kingdom of Judah. And the story continues next session.
- [65:28]
A
Yeah, amen to that. Well, Graham, it's always wonderful chatting and getting to the, you know, really I think to the deep things of what scripture has to say. And I hope you all have enjoyed this episode. Stick around. We got, we got more coming. There's more to say about the 144,000. And again, just going from Revelation 7:14, but into the old Testament, seeing how all these things tie together. So thanks for watching. As always, we appreciate your prayers and support for what we do here. We, we love getting into the deep things of God and some of the, some of the corners that are there that aren't often talked about. And Graham, I appreciate you being with us today. And we will see you all next time.