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- [00:01]
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Welcome to the program today. Mono Gonzales here in studio. And the question for today is, is the Bible really a historical record? Does it have people that existed in reality? There's a lot of skepticism to that and we're going to talk with Dr. Titus Kennedy about that exact question. So stick around.
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Nearly 800 fellow believers from across the nation will gather in Colorado Springs this June to hear from 16 of the most trusted Bible experts and speakers committed to teaching prophecy with clarity, accuracy and conviction. Don't wait. Register today at raptureintherockies.com and be a part of this life changing event.
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A
Well, welcome. We do have Dr. Titus Kennedy and he is a well known archaeologist. I've been following his work for a long time and his work has, is right up my alley and, and he, he nails all the things and hits all the things which I think are so, so helpful for the Christian because again, at the end of the day we're going to ask and discover that question about whether the Bible is, has historical veracity to it, especially as compared to other books. So welcome Titus.
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C
Thank you. I appreciate your interest in biblical archaeology. Let looking forward to our conversation.
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A
Yeah, this is good stuff. And so for those in our audience that might not know you, maybe introduce yourself.
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C
Yeah, I'm Titus Kennedy. I'm an archaeologist specializing in the Bible, various biblical periods and this book that we're discussing on people that are named in the Bible and the archaeological attestation for them. This is my fourth book out on biblical archaeology. In addition to writing, I also excavate, excavated at actually 18 sites total where I've done archaeological projects in six different countries and I also teach, I've taught at universities and seminaries, continue to do that as a halftime professor and continue doing research and publishing articles. Function as the editor of the Near East Archaeological Society Bull and Bulletin currently as well.
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A
One of the things that you bring up in your introduction which I thought was helpful was well, you know, the Bible is, is, is similar to the Iliad by Homer and talk about that like a contrast and comparison there because I mean that's a historical record or text. Talk about the similarities and differences.
- [02:37]
C
Both have characteristics in them where we can see there is a setting within history and both have supernatural events described in them as well. And so there is that crossover. And of course earlier, before the archeology of Troy and Heinrich Schliemann, many, many scholars claimed that the Iliad was totally fictional, that none of those events happen, that the place didn't exist. Right. But then the place is discovered and excavated and they even find that it was destroyed around the time that the Iliad situates this battle of Troy in the Mycenaean period. And so there, there was a historical event that's recorded in there. And so that kind of thing, we do see some similarities with the Bible. The geography is right, the locations, some major type events like a war, destruction of a city. But when you get down to the details, that's where you see more differences between the Iliad and the Bible. Because in the Iliad we have these people like Agamemnon, Helen, Achilles, Hector and so forth. And we have no evidence for those people existing in the Mycenaean period. There are no inscriptions that talk about any of them. So in all likelihood, Homer created these characters maybe off archetypes, inserting them into a historical event that had happened probably hundreds of years before he lived. But that's not the case when we look at the Bible because we have contemporary archaeological evidence of many of the people, their right name, their right family relationship, their location, their, their job or their title. And it verifies those, those are real people. And so the stories have much more historical support than something like the Iliad that has merely a historical context.
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A
Yeah, that, that's, that's excellent because it'd be different if, like you said in if for similarities, if the people. I've been, Detroit, I was actually just there last fall, and the archaeological site. And if you go there and they're like, oh, wow, look at this, here's an inscription of the person that Homer wrote about, that would be different. But that's like you said, that's, that's not, that's not what is happening. And you mentioned inscriptions. And so, you know, for the, for the layperson talk about the different types of artifacts that you were looking at that make, again, that provide an opportunity to make some comparisons between again, what the text is saying and versus what you're looking at out in the field.
- [05:22]
C
So there are many, many types of artifacts that might preserve someone's name and information about them. And this could vary based on that person's status. So if we're talking about a king, then they may be mentioned on a stele. One of these monumental stones that's inscribed often has pictures on it as well. And it's usually talking about either a major historical event or some kind of dedication. So we have those, these large stone monuments. We also have statues in some periods and cultures as well. It could be a statue of the person and their name is inscribed on it as well. Coins in, in later periods of history, especially when we're talking about the Roman period. In the New Testament we have many, many people attested on coins, their names on the coins, sometimes their image. And then back in Old Testament times, tablets, especially cuneiform clay tablets. We also have different types of manuscripts, papyri and parchment that may preserve discussion of a historical character. So we, a lot of these preserve mention of people named in the New Testament. Mosaics sometimes have someone's name on them. Ostracon is a piece of pottery with writing on it, sometimes inscribed, sometimes painted, but those are more common in say the divided kingdom period of the Old Testament or the exile in the Persian period. We have seals. People had these seals that they would use their personal seal and so their name and their title is on that seal. And many, many of the Old Testament people are preserved in seals or the imprints that are made from those seals in clay which are called bule. And then again New Testament times we have another type of artifact called an ossuary, which is a stone burial box. And so there, there are several inscriptions with people's names and, and titles or place of origins or families that we have attesting New Testament characters. So all sorts of different artifacts. The thing that ties these together is they are writing, you know, in either inscriptions or they're impressed or they are on ink somehow and they have the names of the people on them.
- [08:03]
A
I think that's, that's super important. And we're going to get into some of the, some of the names that you've covered in again, Old Testament, New Testament. Also talk about your, your rating system and what that looks like. This isn't just willy nilly in that regard. So we're going to take a little break here where you could see how to get our magazine which covers again events every single month. As you guys all know, things are happening quite fast. So take a listen
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at Prophecy Watchers. We believe that God has called us to be a voice in these last days to warn you of things to come, to educate you on the study of Bible prophecy and to boldly proclaim the soon return of Jesus for your gift of just $50 or more. Here's what we'd love to send you 12 monthly issues of our four color magazine, the Prophecy Watcher in your choice of prophecy, print or digital. Plus five bonus DVDs packed with eye opening teachings from prophecy experts including the mystery of the Rapture, the Great Apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist. Holy Fire in Jerusalem. New shocking discoveries surrounding the Shroud of Turin. The stones cry out the archaeological evidence for Jesus. The Mystery of the ten Kings. Could these be the wealthy and influential oligarchs who control our world today? As an added bonus, we want to send you a one of a kind prophetic treasure. A book that examines every prophecy in the entire Bible. Exploring Bible prophecy from Genesis to Revelation is the work of two prophecy legends, Tim LaHaye and Ed Hindson. It's a book you'll find on the shelf of every every prophecy expert. This 560 page masterpiece is our bonus gift to you. This $120 value can be yours for your gift of $50 with shipping included in the USA. Call us at the number on your screen or visit us online at ProphecyWatchers TV. For our international friends. Please note that additional shipping fees do apply and all prices listed are in US dollars. The signs are everywhere. The prophetic puzzle is almost complete. And yet so many are still asleep. That's why the prophecy watchers exist. To shine a light in the darkness and help believers understand the lateness of the hour. We believe Jesus is coming soon and your support helps us take this urgent message to the ends of the earth.
- [10:35]
A
Welcome back. We are talking to Dr. Titus Kennedy about his brand new book. Just comparing people of the Bible and whether they are historical. But let's, let's start with Nebuchadnezzar. He well known in the book of Daniel. I mean people can read about him and, and of course coming from a very well known near Eastern context of Babylon, you know is, and you have an A rating for him. Very firm.
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C
But how firm is it that that's one of those. That's absolute, cannot be mistaken. We have so many texts of Nebuchadnezzar that he himself commissioned where he is even speaking in the first person. Like his inscription on the Ishtar gate. We have building projects of his. There's even a stele that shows him in Babylon in front of the Ziggurat. Sometimes it's called the Tower of Babel stele. Not the ancient, ancient Tower of Babel, but another Tower of Babel. So in situations like that, again we have so much evidence, it's a hundred percent that this is the, the person that the Bible is referring to. Same time period, same location, same name, same title. We do have information about his family, although it's not talked about in the biblical text. And then even events associated with him when he is leading the charge or ordering for Jerusalem to be attacked and besieged, taking kings into exile, destroying the city later on. So very obvious in a case like that.
- [12:14]
A
Yeah, it's fun. So I mean, this is where again, when you have those that are skeptical and the Bible says something, and again, you might go back 200 years before a lot of this was excavated and yeah, the Bible, you know, whatever. The skeptical world. Yeah. Is it even true? Again, it's just no different than, than the Iliad. One of the ones that when I was in graduate school, you know, 2008 or so, I remember writing a paper on it, kind of a thesis on it was the person of King David. Back then you had this debate of the minim minimalist and maximalist and it was kind of in its heyday and. But yet a lot of stuff was being discovered and you have King David in your, in your book. And so in that sense, based on. You have a firm rating and based on that backdrop, I mean, is David a myth or is he a real figure? And, and how do. What does the archaeology show?
- [13:06]
C
Yeah, he's, he's absolutely a real figure. But until the 90s, most scholars were leaning towards the idea that he was a fictional or mythological character because they had no defined archeological evidence for the existence of David and his role as a king. But that changed when the Tell Dan stele was found, which you've got it behind you, and it talks about how the Arameans defeated these kings of Israel and Judah. And they had come from the line of the House of David, showing that he was the king that established the ruling dynasty of these Israelite monarchs. And that that was from the 9th century B.C. so it comes from the generation after, essentially. And then they looked at the Mesha stele again, which is Moabite, also from the 9th century BC and it also referenced the House of David in the same way as the founder of the royal dynasty. And then even more recently, although there is still debate about this, there's the, the probable palace of David in Jerusalem, constructed about 1000 BC. And there's evidence from several sites, cities or fortress towns around the area of ancient Israel and the Kingdom of David that show that there was a government functioning at the time that was building those sites and, and ruling over them. In fact, there's even the Ostracon from Khirbet Qeiyafa that references the king and it's in Hebrew. So I think it's very powerful evidence now for David, not just as existing, but also as the king and the king ruling over a kingdom like we read about in the Bible.
- [15:06]
A
Yeah, I remember I was there in 2008 with Joseph Garfinkel. And, and he, he hadn't really published anything yet, but we were there at Khirbekiyafa. He gave us an insider view because we were, we were over excavating at got. And here you have this, the double gated city, you know, and all, again, all the things that they were finding there was just. And now when we go, when I take groups, I like to take them there because it's right above the Valley of Elah. So you get to see all that too and be like, look here, here we are, here's the city. It's. And, and I said here's this little known city, which I think based on again coming from that world is this city is very, very influential in this debate. And, and it's much more than what is typically, typically seen, which I think is kind of fun. Taco as well, you, we mentioned, you know, Nebuchadnezzar, which is a foreign ruler again towards the northeast and the kind of the Babylonian, you know, you know, Mesopotamian area. Of course we have Israel, but then also Egypt. I mean, Egypt's well known in history. Talk about Shishak, because here's a guy that again appears in the Bible, well known and was he a real person?
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C
Shishak is one of these situations where the way that it's transliterated in English translations of the Bible can cause a little bit of confusion. But we do have his name rendered in Hebrew, especially like in 1st Kings 14:25, as, as Shoshak, which is essentially identical to the Egyptian rendering of his name as an Egyptian king or an Egyptian pharaoh. So in Egyptian history, this would be the ruler known as Shoshan the first. And he ruled in the 10th century BC specifically about 945 to 924. So he's there before the split of the kingdom while Solomon's still alive. And then he's there after the split of the kingdom. And then it says in the fifth year of Rehoboam, that's when this pharaoh came up and he attacked some of the cities in Judah, Israel as well, and he besieged Jerusalem. So the time period fits, the name fits, the title fits. We don't have discussions about his family ties specifically, you know, his, his father or son or something like that in the Bible. So we can't really compare that. But again, this is a situation where he's a king at a specific time and a specific place. And so it's really not a difficult identification. And then he also helps us with events. You know, we can Match the events of this Egyptian king in Egyptian sources with the events of that Egyptian king mentioned in the Bible. His attack on Judah and Israel and Jerusalem. And we see this in his own inscriptions, like at the Bubastite portal at Karnak where he, he lists all these places that he went to and he defeated. Uh, Megiddo actually is on one of those. And that's really important because at Megiddo they, they excavated a victory stele of Shoshank the first. And it's got his cartouches on it. So more firm identification there. Really another one of these where it's, it's absolutely the same person. We see them doing the same thing, same time and place. And again, the Bible is talking about real historical people doing events that actually happened.
- [18:49]
A
Yeah. And what's phenomenal about it and as not, not just the Bible's record, but what you do is you don't just pick the easy, which we'll talk about in a minute, the, the easier time frames like the first century, you're, you're looking at other things the Bible speaks about. Again, we're talking 9th century BC or David's time or even Babylonian time. So there's a whole range of centuries that are happening here. And again, I cannot recommend this book enough, especially for people who are skeptical or I always think in terms as a pastor of equipping the layperson who's out there sharing with their family about the historicity of the Bible and again, how it matches with archeology. We're going to take a little break here where you can see how to get Titus's book. Again, I cannot recommend this book enough. Give it to your grandson or your own son or daughter as a teenager. Get this information in their brain because these are the seeds that are going to be planted to help them. When there are times where faith is challenged or where there's doubt, they're going to think back to these things.
- [19:51]
C
Well, remember that one guy, that book
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I read, it shows it being historically corroborated. So take a listen.
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Secular scholars love to discredit the reliability of scripture, denying that Jesus, King David and many other key biblical characters even existed. Then archeologists like Dr. Titus Kennedy come along and dedicate their lives to, to this research excavating the Holy Land and neighboring countries like Egypt, Jordan and even Iraq. Titus introduces us to well known names like Caiaphas, Nebuchadnezzar, Simon of Cyrene, who carried the cross of Christ, John the Baptist, the Roman Caesars, the family of Jesus, Annaeus, Pontius Pilate, Judas, the disciples of Jesus, and King Agrippa, who may have uttered the saddest words in the Bible to the Apostle Paul when he said, almost thou persuadest me to become a Christian. Each of these men have a story that's woven into Scripture. We've chosen two of Titus books to share with you today. Books that will not just educate you, but books that can be used to share the Gospel. Archaeology and the People of the Bible is a new, one of a kind book which takes you on a tour of 130 biblical characters and contains 200 photos of archaeological discoveries that confirm the Bible, many in living color. This 339 page masterpiece will leave you mesmerized as you discover people and places that come alive through the pen of Titus Kennedy. It's available through our ministry for your gift of $35 or more with a bonus DVD from Mondo and Dr. Kennedy. The Stones cry out exclamation the Evidence for Jesus. Call the number you see on your screen or visit our online Bookstore at ProphecyWatchers TV for our international friends. Please note that additional shipping fees do apply and all prices listed are in US Dollars. Titus has also written Excavating the Evidence for the Archaeology and History of Christ, a faith builder that examines the evidence of the resurrection from archaeological and historical sources. It's available for your gift of $35 or more with the bonus DVD the Stones Cry Out. When you get both books for your gift of $60 or more, we're going to send you three bonus DVDs from the Prophecy Watchers Prophetic Library. The three bonuses include the Stones Cry Out Digging Deeper into Israel and Egypt and a video of our ministry's trip to Israel. Join us in Jerusalem, a tour of God's favorite place on Earth. Titus Books should be a part of everyone's library. We love bringing you the biblical experts, people who love Jesus, love Israel and love studying God's word. May God bless you as we all look forward to the soon return of our Messiah.
- [22:46]
A
Well, welcome back. We are talking to Dr. Titus Kennedy again about his book and again I just. I hope that you will consider getting these for yourself or as gifts for others. For those skeptics relatives, this is. I love. I actually love skeptics because I wasn't raised a Christian. I was raised in a very nominal household. So I was an atheist for most of my teenage years, even into college and then after getting saved, started looking at the evidence which again led me in my own desires to study archaeology and because I find it fascinating we are to walk by faith, but faith is not blind by any means. And so, Titus, let's jump into the New Testament and maybe, as I mentioned, maybe give a little contrast or similarity, maybe I'm wrong, but is the New Testament figures, are they a little bit easier than maybe some of the Old Testament figures?
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C
Yeah, they are easier. And the primary reason for that is because it's closer to our current time. Secondarily, in the Roman period, there was a lot more writing and inscriptions especially that have been preserved. And so there's just more information with people's names on it that we're able to look at. More preserved, more writing, makes it simpler for us.
- [24:07]
A
Absolutely. And you know, for those that might be wondering, I mean, you, you, you do mention Jesus in there, talk about, you know, of course we have them in the Bible, but what do we have archaeologically that would bring some confirmation?
- [24:20]
C
Jesus is actually very well attested historically and we could say archeologically in addition to that. So as far as historical writing, so let's, let's talk about ancient manuscripts. We're going to use ancient manuscripts for some people instead of just stone inscriptions. And this is the case for Jesus. We have some writers, historians and philosophers from the first and second century A.D. some, of course, lived in the first century and they mentioned Jesus Christ as a historical person. So they're attesting to him historically in a way. But we do have ancient manuscripts of them. So this enters the realm of archaeology. But then specifically with archeology, we have two, maybe three artifacts that I highlight. We have on the James ossuary, we have his name appearing as the brother of James. So it says in Aramaic, James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus. And why can we identify this Jesus as Jesus Christ? Well, first of all, son of Joseph, that part. But the fact that they tacked on brother of Jesus to this inscription is very, very strange. We don't, we don't see the same formula on any other Oshawa inscriptions. In fact, only one other ossuary inscription has the brother's name. So this tells us the brother is important. They want us to know who it is. It's from 1st century Jerusalem prior to 70 A.D. so very, very strong case that this is mentioning Jesus. So we've got historical attestation, multiple historians. We have pictorial reference to him on the cross. We have his name Jesus, along with his brother and with Joseph on the ossuary. And then we seem to have his title as well on that cup.
- [26:27]
A
You know, as we close here, you know, what do you say? To, you know, somebody who is, you know, let's say a teenager. And like, I think I'm like myself, I'm 18 years old. And, and how does, how do these, how does the stuff that you presented here ultimately connect to the reality of the gospel, the saving gospel message? I mean that, that to me that's the ultimate goal, is to get somebody to say, okay, you can believe this, what do you say to them?
- [26:55]
C
So we can evaluate the Bible on different grounds, but one of those grounds is history, history, archaeology. And what we can say from history and archeology is that those places, those people, those events that are written about in the Bible, they're demonstrated to have been real people, places and events. The text is historically reliable. It's confirmed time and time again that it's true, that it can be trusted. And so we should then give this proper view to the Bible, that it is a valuable source of information, of truth, so we can be confident, historically reliable. Look at the theology, it should be true as well.
- [27:49]
A
I, I think it's super important that God would want us to know. Yeah, we do have an element of faith, as you said. Theologically, we take things by faith, but that faith is not blind. It's not built on anti evidence or complete contradictions. And so, Titus, as always, thank you for joining me today. Thank you as well for watching everybody. Thank you for your prayers and support. We could not do this without you. And again, I encourage you to get his book, give it as a gift. It just came out today. I feel honored to be interviewing Titus today on it. You can certainly get it at prophecywatchers. Com as well. So thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time.