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The Question That Divides Christians | Igal German | The Week in Bible Prophecy
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The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Welcome to the program, everyone. Mondo Gonzalez, here in studio, we have our good friend Dr. Igal German, and he's going to join me and we're going to just have a conversation really about a super important topic and that is something known as replacement theology, fulfillment theology, supersessionism. There's a variety of titles for it. Before we do, before we go to Dr. Garman, I want to just remind everybody about a couple things. We have our upcoming conference in Colorado Springs, June 4 through 7. It's going to be a great time there. It's always a great time to be in Colorado during the first part of June. If you want more information on that, you can go to prophecywatchers.com we are calling a rapture in the Rockies and we're hoping that the rapture takes place that wouldn't that be great to go up during the time and not a prediction, but hopefully the Lord would come even sooner than that. But again, prophecy watchers.com check it out. Also want to remind everybody we're we're going to Israel in May. That trip is full. But if you have had it on your mind to go to Israel, we have another trip planned for January of 2027 and you can go to israel2027.com israel2027.com check it out. You can see the itinerary there and everything. It's again, it's a great time to be in Israel. It's the last part of January into February. I've been there during that time and it is, it's, it's just a wonderful, it's cool, it's a cool time to be there. It's not, you're not going to be roasting hot. So eagle, welcome.
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Yes, Mundo, it's so good to be here. Thank you, brother. I'm so privileged to be here. May the Lord bless prophecy butchers. I love you guys and it's an amazing topic that we are going to discuss together. I'm so excited.
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So for those that might not know you, I know, I mean, people who have come to our conference, you've been a speaker at our conference. And so for those that might not know, introduce yourself your ministry and kind of your background.
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Yeah. So my name is Idal Guillerman and I'm an Israeli messianic Jewish believer. I live in Chicago with my family. And the Lord blessed me to launch a new apologetics ministry in three languages in English, Russian and Hebrew. Our ministry is called Faith Defenders International and we are an apologetics group and that we are reaching out to people, believers, Jewish people, people who are in all kinds of spiritual deception, people in the cults. And we are reaching out to them with the gospel of Jesus Christ of Yeshua hamashiach. We are here to proclaim the gospel. We are not ashamed of the gospel because that's the power of God to the salvation of everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the gentile. So the mission of our ministry is really equip the believers, train them, get them the knowledge and the tools they need to go out and be effective ambassadors of the Kingdom of God. And I think this, this kind of a ministry is really necessary because evangelism is number one. But apologetics is somewhat, you know, on the sidelines and it's, we need kind of to reclaim it. So here we are to, to reclaim biblical sound, messianic apologetics. So, so we are faith defenders. Our website is Bibleapologist.org and my professional vocation, I'm a biblical scholar. I'm a professor of Old Testament studies. I teach in different theological institutions and here in Chicago and nationwide, we host conferences, we have YouTube channels, we hold seminars, we teach, we write, we publish, we do a lot of work. So we invite you all friends to check us out and join forces with us as we contend for the faith of the gospel.
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Yeah, it's pretty amazing too, especially, you know, the other languages that you, that you are very fluent in, for sure. And for, you know, the different apologetics, if they go to that website, will they be able to find ways to find you on YouTube and other things in some of the videos?
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Yes, yes, yes. So everything is available. Our YouTube channel is very easy to find out. It's a Faith Defender International. Dr. Igal German. So we have that YouTube channel. If you speak Russian, you can find another YouTube channel as well. We have lots of free content. I invite you to subscribe to our free newsletter. Check us out, get in touch with us, stand with us as we stand for the truth of the gospel in our last days.
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Yeah, I mean, and I think as we, as we get more and more into the last days, you know, I've always had a love for, you know, 30 some years in apologetics, all different kinds, creation, science, you know, you name it. Cults, that's, that's just kind of been my background too. So I, I Love, you know, 1st Peter 3:15, that we are always to be ready to give a defense. Apologia this a defense. That's what the tells us an apology. Not, not in an English way, but in, in a very understanding that to give a defense for the faith because we know that it certainly is defendable and, but also as it says there, with gentleness and respect. So that's, that's really my heart is to, to defend the faith. And so here in this, in this instance, there's been a lot of conversation over the past, really. Well, it's long, but it's coming more and more into our modern world trying to understand the role of Israel. No doubt Israel is back in the land. It's, it's, it. They've been there for 77 full years and this is going to be their 78th year in May. And so once Israel got back in the land, it really shook up, I think, the theological world because prior to that you had those really, I would say historically speaking, that didn't see any future for Israel. And so they held to what is commonly called replacement theology, but it's also called fulfillment theology or supersessionism. Other things that, you know, they don't really, those proponents don't often like the term replacement theology and we'll talk about that. But it's interesting now that Israel has been in the land for so long that we have to have this conversation because let's come right out of the gate in there in the sense of, from your perspective and you've had opportunities to debate and to converse and everything else, as many people have. So replacement theology kind of give us a basic definition of that and maybe what is supersessionism? I mean that's a real big term. Some people might not know that. What does that word mean?
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Yeah, yeah, Excellent questions, Bar. So replacement theology is basically a Christian doctrine that teaches that the church had replaced the nation of Israel since the first century. So basically the premise goes, you know, most of the Jewish people in the land of Israel have rejected their Messiah, Jesus, Yeshua. So God judged them and he just decided to choose people from the nations as his church. So basically the Jews got replaced by the church, which is, you know, a multi ethnic body of believers. The Jewish people have no future, no future salvation, no future repentance, no physical restoration, no spiritual restoration. So all the promises were fulfilled in Christ and the church in the first century. So there is basically the modern state of Israel has no prophetic significance according to replacement theologians. So their understanding is that with the first coming of Christ all the prophecies came to pass. So Israel basically lost its status as an elected nation in God's eyes. So they Say that now we are the new Israel, we are the church, we are the body of Christ. God cast away the Jews. They have no place in God's redemptive plan of salvation. So that's basically kind of the basic tenet of replacement theology. The academic term is supersessionism. Okay. So basically the idea that the church superseded the Jewish people. All right, again, some theologians prefer to call it fulfillment theology because they say, yeah, Christ and the church, they fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Old Testament, so there is nothing more to expect. So supersessionism and, or replaced mythology, there are very much kind of interwoven into them, into all kinds of, in my opinion, counter biblical eschatological systems like full preterism, post millennialism, amillennialism. Okay, so many Christians who uphold replacement theology, they also uphold non biblical eschatologies.
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Yeah, there's no doubt that it leads to eschatology, of course, has a place in all theologies, but at the end of the day, their eschatology is going to be far different. And so let me ask you this question because, you know, I have a lot of good friends, certainly believers that love Jesus, they're preaching the gospel and they will withhold to supersessionism. You know, again, and what are the, in being fair, what are, what's what, what, what leads them, what leads them to, to try to, or to see in Scripture in the New Testament, this elevation of the church and Israel being, you know, they're. They don't reject God's working through Israel. Of course, that's pretty obvious. They don't reject the Old Testament, but when Jesus comes along, they're like, well, that the nation of Israel had its time, God bless them, they had their time. Now Jesus is here, and so we don't need that anymore. And so this new body, this new body of believers, which includes Jew and gentile, so help us understand why they want to see the continuity. There's maybe explain that, that for them, what's the continuity in God's plan between the Old Testament and the New Testament or even the people of Israel and the church? And then what is the discontinuity there?
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Right, right, yes. So those are very deep theological questions, Mondo. So on the one hand, they want to see continuity between the two, between the two Testaments, old and the New. And on the one hand it's a good thing. I also believe in the continuity of scripture from the Hebrew Bible to the writings of the New Testament. But their understanding of continuity is basically discontinuity. Of God's a covenantal faithfulness and God's covenantal promises to specifically to the physical descendants of Abram, Isaac and Jacob. So basically their understanding is that kind of all of those promises that were specifically given to the Jewish nation, to the Jewish people were transferred over to the church. And in this transfer, the nation itself kind of lost its, its spiritual anchor in God's faithfulness and God's covenantal promises, which I don't find in the Bible. So when we look into the New Testament, we see that the teachings of the apostle, the teachings of Jesus Christ, let's start with the foundation, with the Messiah himself, with Yeshua Hamashiach, with the writings of the apostles from Matthew to the Book of Revelation. We see how those apostles inspired by the same Holy Spirit, just like Moses, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, all the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, how they continue to carry this hope of Israel in their hearts and share the gospel with the Jewish people and the Gentiles, and yet still believing that yes, the time is coming when the Messiah will return, the time is coming when all Israel will be saved. The time is coming for the hope of Israel to come to its fulfillment, literally, historically. So that's where I think we find this kind of a theological disconnect Mondo, in this kind of supersessionist thinking, okay? Because on the one hand, they want to be. They want to see the continuity, which is a wonderful thing. And I believe you and I would kind of cheer them on and say, hey, good job, good job. Yeah, for the continuity password. But on the other hand, when we see the unity of the covenants, when we see the unity of God's Word, we must see how the New Testament writers, how they appropriated those covenants, those promises. And they never cancel, not in any word, not in any teachings of Jesus Christ or his apostles. We see them kind of making that u turn this theological. U turn that kind of put things upside down and say, hey, no, it now we are. Yeah, we are the believers, remnant of Israel and the Gentile believers, but nothing. Basically, the Jews have no more status as a group of people in God's eyes, right? And there is no future for them. So the New Testament never teaches it. So we see that the whole New Testament in one accord with the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, they look into the future. They look into the time when the Messiah returns, when he restores the kingdom to Israel. And that's why the apostles, right before Jesus ascends to heaven on the Mount of Olives, they end. They would ask him Is that the time for you to restore the kingdom to Israel? And Jesus did not tell him, hey, guys. No, no, you're wrong. I'm not going to do that. No, he's telling them, just, it's not your time. It's not the time. And then your mission is to go Acts 1:8 and be my witnesses. So I think the biblical understanding of the biblical doctrine of Israel is super important for every believer. It's not a secondary doctrine. It's not a tertiary doctrine like some theologians assert. No, it's an important doctrine, a primary doctrine that needs to be restored. Just like Dr. Arnold Furtenbaum has his book, right. Israelology, the Missing link in Systematic theology. Right. And again, still to this day, many theologians, many pastors, they still miss that important biblical link. And it's very important to reclaim the biblical truth, not in order to boast with knowledge, but with humble hearts to see how you can be used as God's tool, as his servant, to go and bring the good news of the kingdom to your Jewish neighbors, to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, to love them, to stand with Israel. It doesn't mean that you have to endorse all the political agenda or political decisions. Not at all. Right. But God gives us wisdom and discernment and understanding, so we can be wise. Not in our own eyes, no, but wise with God's wisdom, like we read in James, chapter three, wisdom that is from above. And with that kind of a heart, we need to go out to the nations and tell them that, hey, friends, all gentile believers are called to be the watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem. Just like reading those amazing Messianic eschatological prophecies In Isaiah, chapter 60, Isaiah 61, Isaiah 62, and many other prophetic words, passages in God's Word. So that's why it's so important for us, Mondo, to develop biblical apologetics of Israel. And I think it's missing in the church in the big time. So we are here to reclaim the biblical truth, to help our brothers and sisters not to come with a judgmental spirit to put them down or anyone else, but with humble hearts, with passion for the truth to come and help them see the beauty and the depth of God's truth.
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Yeah, I can't recommend Dr. Fruchtenbaum's book enough. It really is Israelogy. It was his PhD dissertation at New York University. And I remember reading it, I was 19 years old and one of the first books that somebody gave me, and I was like, what is this? But it was, but I would just sit there and read it, eating my cereal in the morning and trying to wrap my head around because I was a brand new Christian. You start seeing the depth. There's no greater work. That's why he calls it the missing link in systematic theology. I wish every seminary student in, in the country, in the world would, would be forced to read that book because it, there's a reason why. I mean five, the Bible is five, six about Israel. And so anyways, one of the things that comes up is you mentioned various passages in the book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, you name it, Ezekiel, that are. That speak about a coming restoration or of Israel or even a kingdom, a physical literal kingdom of the Messiah. Psalm 2, you know, you name it, Isaiah 9 other passages. One of the things that I want to get your thoughts on this, that all of a sudden, you know, on some of these viewpoints we could sit with our covenant theologian brothers and we could say, oh yeah, we agree, we agree on a lot, we agree on a lot. But when it comes to some of these prophecies in the Old Testament, talk about the difference in hermeneutics, because for them, you know, the prophecies of the first coming of Jesus, we all agree they're literal. Micah 5:2, the Messiah is going to be born in Bethlehem, everybody agrees. But when you have other prophecies that speak about a future restoration of Israel to the land, maybe Ezekiel 40 through 48, a coming millennial temple, they change the rules all of a sudden they become allegorical in their hermeneutics and then they end up somewhere else because. So talk about that and then talk about why. How, how that is dis, that is discontinuity, but also how that, how they're forced to do that. Why, why do they go there? Why do they.
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Why?
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What forces them to go there?
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Right. More than. Yeah. Another amazing question. So I have, based on my research and my interaction with different theologians and apologists and pastors, I see mundo that there are different spiritual and theological factors playing out in the way people read and interpret the Bible. So on the one hand you have, you know, theological traditions. So sometimes it's just more convenient and it's kind of the easier path for individual, for a pastor or even a theologian just to go with the flow. That's kind of the dominant theological perspective. The church fathers, some of the greater Protestant reformers, they understood it that way. Am I better? No, I would just go with the flow kind of thing. So that's one kind of factor that plays out in this discussion. You Just trust the big. The giants that came before you. Right. Not the giants of Genesis 6. Of course. I'm kidding. Right? Yeah. But, okay, we are all standing on shoulders. Right. Of giants. In a good way. But the problem with this, in my opinion, is basically that when theological traditions trumps God's words. And that is a problem, because when you get to those prophecies, just like those you mentioned, for example, just Isaiah 11. Right. The messianic kingdom, and then you have, you know, Reformed theologians and other theologians who are not Reformed, they turn to this passage and they say, oh, it's all allegorical, it's all symbolic, it's not literal. It's not going to happen. Literally. I have a big problem with this reading. I have a big problem. Why? Because God had given us his word in a plain language. That's the Bible. And we take the Bible at face value. Of course we have images, of course we have sun symbols, of course we have heavenly visions. But it does not mean that now, you know, Isaiah 11 is just, you know, about, you know, like human enemies, you know, enemies within society. Now they reconcile. No, it's about what does.
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Specifically, what does Isaiah 11 say for those that don't know?
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Oh, yeah, yeah. So if we turn to this amazing passage, it's one of those clearest messianic prophecies that we find in the Hebrew Bible that speak of the first coming and the second coming of the Messiah. So In Isaiah chapter 11, we read about the righteous rain of the branch. And it's a Davidic prophecy, because Isaiah chapter 11, verse 1 reads that a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse. Who was Jesse? The father of David. Right. Ishai in Hebrew. Interestingly, there is a small Israeli town not far from Haifa, Cod. Ramat Ishai. Yeah. So his name is there, still there. And the branch from his roots will bear fruit. And then we read about the Spirit of God, the sevenfold function of the Holy Spirit upon the person of the Messiah. Okay? And then verses six through nine, we read about the wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the lamb part will lie down with the young goat and the calf and the young lion and the family together. Right? So we see how God is going to restore the nature. Literally never happened before. Still, we don't see it in our world today. So we clearly see that's a prophecy that will come to pass in the second coming of the Messiah.
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Is there anything in there? I just. I gotta interrupt because. So verses one through five, all very straightforward, literal speaking about the role of the Holy Spirit. The, the, the, the description of the Messiah's character. And then it talks about the wolf, you know, laying down with the lamb. Is there anything in the text that says, okay, now it's like this, it's, it's, Is there any indication that it would go allegorical? I mean, it's pretty straightforward. Is there any markers in the text
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that tell us all of a sudden, Absolutely not. Right? So, so you just read the, the prophecy and you see it's about a literal person, it's about literal events, it's about physical but real animals, right? It cannot be more literal and more and more historical than it is already given by the Holy Spirit, right? And then we read in, for example, in verse verses 9 and 10, they will not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain. What is the holy mountain of the Lord? That's, that's Mount Zion, right? Jerusalem. I mean, and then of course, when you understand this basic biblical fact, like, come on, we all know where this is, the holy mountain of the Lord. You read chapter two of Isaiah, right? The time will come, all the nations will flow and stream to worship the Lord Yahweh, the God of hosts, on that mountain in his temple. The time is coming. And then we read that the nations will resort to the root of Jesse. So you see, so verse one, verses one and ten. It's like those are two bookends, right? So clearly it's the same prophecy who will stand as a signal for the peoples and his resting place will be glorious. And then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time of his hand, the remnant of his people who will remain. So we see how God will gather all the dispersed Jewish people from all over the world back physically to the land of Israel. And it had never happened, you know, even with the modern state of Israel, it's not full. You know, not all Jewish people are back to the land yet, but the time is coming. So we live with this anticipation if we believe this, with this mess, and hope that God will fulfill His Word. So all those kinds of allegorical, non historical readings of prophecy, they're misleading. They just basically, it's not exegesis, it's ise Jesus. People read their own ideas, their own theologies into the text, which was never the authorial intent. So that's why it's so important when we read God's Word. We need to ask the Holy Spirit to be our teacher, to be our guide, to be our comforter, and to help us see the depth and the beauty of God's promises the way they are given. We are not allowed to distort Scripture. We are not allowed to, you know, just play with it. No, it's. No, There is no way. It's very dangerous.
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Yeah, absolutely. That, that is. That is well said. Because I think the key is ultimately, and this is why even in my own life, I've. I've spent most of my life studying hermeneutics. How do we interpret the Bible? What's. What's the consistent way? And I even, I spent a year in, in a PhD program for that reason, hermeneutics. Because I thought, man, if you don't get this right, then. Then you're the. Your end. All your theology is going to be wrong in so many ways. Again, I can't emphasize that enough, and that's always been hard for me, is the inconsistency there is in, in the first Coming, prophecies are literal, but then things like this that refer to his Second coming are all of a sudden changed. In Alabarian. Well, when did we change the rules? To me, that I don't like that it's inconsistent. And my goal here, as you know, is I want to be fair in how we present, you know, what the views are. And then. And then just to assess whether the biblical. And one of them, again, they talk about superseding, you know, supersessionism or superseding that the New Testament, the New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant. Okay, well, obviously, none of us. I'm not out there offering my sacrifices three times a year. I'm not going to Jerusalem. Right. So in one sense, the New Covenant does replace or does supersede the Old Covenant mosaic system. So help us to unpack that, because again, there's some truth here. None of us are offering sacrifices. How do we. How do we. How do we then say, well, okay, that's true, but you're taking it too far.
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Right, Right. It's a very important question. Basically. It's so deep, it has so many aspects that should be unpacked here. But I would just try to address it, you know, head on, you know, with this question of whether it would be biblically, how should we take the New Covenant of Jeremiah, chapter 31, verses 31, 34, and actually, see, yes, we see in the first coming of Jesus Christ the fulfillment. Right. He established the New Covenant in his blood. Yes. And amen. We are saved by the New Covenant. We are not saved by the Old Covenant. We are not saved by bringing animal sacrifices. Yes. No question about that. We would all agree on that, right? We'd all agree, yeah. But at the same time, the understanding, the fulfillment of the sacrificial shadows in the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, in his death and resurrection and ascension, all of that does not mean that the prophetic aspects of the covenants, of the old covenants have no place for the future. Right. Why? It's important because within the system of the Sinai covenant, there are promises for the spiritual and physical restoration of the Jewish people. For example, in Leviticus, chapter 26, for example. Right. And then you go, for example, to Deuteronomy, chapter 30. Right, 31. And in those chapters which are actually part of the renewed covenant in the plains of Muaw. Right. So we have the Sinai covenant taking place right after the Israelites left Egypt. And then the time passes, and right before they entering the promised land at our 40th year of their wanderings, Right. God renews that Sinai covenant in the plains of Muaw. So the renewal of the covenant in the book of Deuteronomy has major prophetic implications. So with that in mind, we see that there are prophetic aspects of the Sinai covenant and prophetic aspects of the renewed covenant in the plains of Maal that are yet to be fulfilled. So we find that God promises that the time will come when the Jewish people will be in a great dispersion. They will be in rebellion against him, God will punish them for their sins, but the time will come for a great renewal, for repentance, change, Shuva in Hebrew, for a time when the Israelites, the Jewish people, will turn back to the Lord in their land. So, and those prophecies are still yet to come to pass. And the New Testament is actually confirming us. You know, in the Gospels, in the Book of Acts, in the writings of Paul, in the Book of Revelation, we see how this divine drama of God and Israel plays out finally in the eschaton, in the second coming of the Messiah, in the establishment of the millennial kingdom with the capital city of Jerusalem. So while it's true that many aspects of the Sinai covenant are all fulfilled in the Messiah, Right. And we're not supposed to go sacrifice animals and all that, of course, is so clear. Right. But there are important prophetic truths and prophetic patterns in the silent covenant and in the renewed covenant, in the plans of Moab, which will play out in the future, so that is very important. And maybe it's kind of another missing link in our reading of the Pentateuch, because many Christians see the Pentateuch of the Torah As a dated, canceled, abolished, superseded, they don't find value. Okay, are we going to practice all of the laws of Leviticus now or you know, about leprosy, Other things. I mean, people about, you know, slavery and other things. Right. Of course. We live in a different time. There are many things we cannot physically even just apply do them. That's so clear. Right. But we see spiritual principles in those divine laws, spiritual principles that still apply to us today that can bring a blessing to us. Not to make us legalists not to think that now we are saved by words of the law or anything. Not at all. No. It's just, it's divine word. It's inspired by the Holy Spirit and we need to read and see the prophetic in those covenants and see, yes. That the time will come for them to come to pass fully as Jesus preached and his apostles in the New Testament.
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B
Yeah, I, I think that's the challenge is because what I see too is, is. And I, I don't mean this is like an insult, but it simply to say that, oh, all those prophecies are all fulfilled in Jesus. To me, it's. L. It's a little bit lazy. It's, it's lazy in my mind simply just to. If you don't have an answer for it, well, we're just going to allegorize it and say it's all fulfilled in Jesus. Well, again, that, that's inconsistent to me with again hermeneutics in, in the First Coming prophecies, they took those, they, all of us, they, we take those very little. When Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, it wasn't 27, it was 30. He's not born in, you know, in, in Haifa, you know, or whatever. He's born in, in Bethlehem, not in Jerusalem, in Bethlehem. And so we're very, very strict. And if any of those didn't come to pass, we'd say, well, you know, just, it's just generalized fulfillment in Jesus, you know, it doesn't, doesn't really matter the details. No, that's not acceptable. And so like I said, it's a little bit lazy and it brings them all in. And so one of the other tenants which you know, you, you kind of alluded to, was there one of the other tenants clearly of replacement theology or fulfillment theology or whatever is there's no future for Israel. And so the. I think that's important because again, it's easy to say that in 1920, and a lot of them did or even historically by Augustine, you know, in 400 A.D. so you have these traditions through all of church history. It's easy to look around and go, israel's gone. You know, they're. They're over. Okay. Now, obviously, we know the first believers were Jewish. So the fulfillment of those covenants began with Jewish people. The new covenant started with Jews. Okay? That's it. That's where it started. And of course, it spread out to. The blessings came to the Gentiles. And of course, many, like yourself, Messianic believer today. So there's always God has a remnant, like Romans 11 says. Not. Not everybody was blinded. But how important then maybe give us an understanding of It's. It's. They can't allow in their mind. They cannot. Cannot allow for a. And they have a difficulty of recognizing or reconciling the idea of Israel being back in the land today. How is. What do they say to that? How is it not important? And how does Romans 11 speak about not just future individual Jews like yourself getting saved, but all Israel? And maybe talk about the theology as well, of why. Why would God want to bring Israel back and save them as a nation through Jesus? We know that's only through Jesus, the Messiah. What is if he doesn't do that? Is there something lacking in his faithfulness, so to speak? Because they ended pretty poorly. Okay, so what's he looking to do in the sense of his own vindication? I know there's a lot there, so kind of unpack it for us.
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Yeah, yeah. Great questions, brother. So I believe that according to scripture, the time of the spiritual and physical restoration of Israel is yet to come. And the modern state of Israel, established in 1948, is a prophetic milestone. It's a prophetic sign from God that God did not cast the Jews away. So the modern state of Israel was, I believe, prophetically, is a miracle. It's a sign of divine favor, especially after the Holocaust, the tragedy, the horrific tragedy of the Holocaust. We see God restoring the remnant of the physical remnant of the Jewish people. He brings them back home. And in the land of Israel, we see great spiritual revival taking place now nowadays. So I believe that the fact that God blessed and helped restore the modern state of Israel is a sign of the future national restoration, spiritually and physically the nation as a whole.
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Let me jump in. So just so that people. When you say spiritual revival in the land of Israel today, that's not necessarily belief in Yeshua.
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No, no, no, that's.
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How do you define spiritual revival? Just so people can.
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Right, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So. So I define spiritual revival in modern Israel today. I mean, by that, Jewish people, Israelis turning to Yeshua, the Messiah, okay, so they are coming to faith.
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So you have Messianic believers, Messianic believers,
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A
the mess movement in, in modern Israel. So I believe, and specifically in Jerusalem. So I see this as God's hand at work. And God is preparing the world for the second coming of the Messiah when he will appear in Heaven and Zechariah 12:10 will fully come to pass. They will mourn over him, right? They will repent. They will accept the one whom they have rejected for centuries, their beloved, the only son, the Mashiach, the King of Israel, Jesus. Yeshua. So that time is coming. And today the role of the church is not just to watch, but to see how they can play out, what role they can play out in this spiritual reformation and transformation taking place today in modern Israel and across the globe. With more and more Jewish people coming to faith again, we don't see like a major spiritual rival here in the Jewish community here in America, although it happened in the 20th century, right? So, but I still see God's hand in his amazing work, working in the lives of individuals, families, communities. So the idea that no future national role for Israel contradicts the Bible, it contradicts history, it contradicts current events, right? And basically it contradicts the heart of the Gospel. Because when Paul was chained in the Book of Acts, he proclaimed it several times, right? That I'm here for the hope of Israel. I'm suffering for the sake of the hope of Israel. And I don't think many Christians even take a deep dive and think over this statement for the hope of Israel. And that's one of God's names, Tikvat Israel or Mikveh Israel. Right? It's one of God's names in the Hebrew Bible. And now Paul is preaching that hope of Israel to Gentiles. So what is the mission of Gentile believers? And I believe the answer is found in Romans 11:11. And we read these amazing words, Romans 11:11. But by their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make them jealous. So Gentile believers are mandated to make Jewish people jealous. And I don't think many Christians are doing that okay, in a godly way, right? They don't even think of that. Like how, what is my calling? That's a divine commandment. Right here in Romans 11:11, right? So every believer, every pastor, every theologian has to revisit his beliefs, check them against God's word, align his life with Scripture, and Then make the next steps to connect with the truth of Scripture about Israel in the past, in the present, and in the future.
- [40:43]
B
You know, one of the things that I think is often said which get your thoughts on is, well, when Paul says that he's on trial, you know, for the hope of Israel, really what he means is hope of the church.
- [40:59]
A
Church.
- [41:00]
B
And so Israel is. How many times in the Bible is the church called Israel?
- [41:09]
A
Not even once. Not even once. We don't, as far as I can tell, not a single reference in the Bible that would say the church is called Israel.
- [41:23]
B
I mean, we read in 1 Corinthians 10, verse 32, that Paul says, you know, give no offense to the Jew, to the Gentile or the church, Right? So it's interesting that he brings up three different groups there. And so what about, though, you know, you have Galatians 6:16. You know, where there. Paul is writing to Gentiles and he talks about the Israel of God. And that is the place where often people say, well, there it is, Galatians 6:16. That's. He's calling the Galatians the Israel of God. And that would be the only time that you'd ever have if they were. If they were correct that the church was specifically called Israel. Because every other time, there's always a distinction. Romans 9, Romans 11. It's clear that Paul is talking about ethnic. He uses those phrases according to the flesh. According to the flesh. Talking about ethnic, national Israel. And even Paul himself being part of that, you know, group. And of course, we know that there is a distinction as well between somebody who is ethnic, an ethnic Jewish person, and someone who's a spiritual, ethnic Jewish person who's saved. So you have those distinctions being made in Romans 9:11. We can't get into all the details, but any thoughts on the claim that, well, the church is called Israel all the time. And even in Galatians 6:16.
- [42:53]
A
Right. So number one, Israel is not. The church is not called Israel. In the New Testament. The only possible verse which we just highlighted, Galatians 6:16, which is basically the final words of Paul to the Galatians. And those who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon Israel of God. Okay, so you have those who walk by the. By the rule, peace and mercy upon them. So basically, in the first half of verse 16, he addresses the whole church, all the believers. The first half of verse 16. And then in the second half of verse 16, and upon the Israel of God, all. Now he marks off a specific group, a Specific
- [43:43]
B
subset. Subgroup.
- [43:44]
A
Subset, yes. Subgroup. Exactly right. Who. Who would that group be in light of Pauline theology and Galatians. Yes. Jewish Christians or Messianic Jews or. Or the remnant of Israel. So basically, they are, you know, Jews, Israelites according to the flesh, but they're also Israel of God. Now, they know the Messiah, they know the Lord, so they have their own calling within the church, the Israel of God. Why. Why wouldn't that make sense? Right. And that's why. Why I believe we can make a stronger argument for. For that reading of Galatians 6:16. If we turn to Galatians chapter 3, Galatians chapter 3, we have this passage here, chapter 3, verses 26, 29. 26, 29. Okay? For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, There is neither slave nor freeman. There is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. So I believe that in this specific passage, Paul speaks of the whole body of the Messiah, which is made up of Jewish believers and believers from the nations. Okay, so what we read here actually corresponds to Galatians 6:16, part 1, the first part verse, verse 16. Okay, so but for example, in. In another text here, Galatians chapter 2, verse 15, Galatians chapter 2, Verse 15, Paul writes, We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles. So who are the. We are Jews. I believe he's referring here to his kinsmen, the other Messianic believers. Messianic Jewish believers, just like Shaul or Saul or Paul. So I read Galatians 2:15 together with the Israel of God of Galatians 6:16. Okay, so basically in Galatians 2:15, he's referring to other believers who are Jewish by nature and not cedars from among the Gentiles. Right. And then in verse 16, second part, he actually emphasizes. He focuses on them and upon the Israel of God. So he's part of the Israel of God, just like him and Peter and others were part of that remnant of Israel. And he alludes to it, of course, In Romans, chapter 11, verses 1 through 6. So I think that creating is the most natural and most compelling exegetically and theologically.
- [46:45]
B
Yeah. And I would add, too, that when you see what Paul is writing in to the Galatians, he talks often about the circumcision, and he's speaking about these judaizers that are trying to add works to faith. You know, Galatians 3. If you started by faith, why you added works? I mean, come on, foolish Galatians, you started by faith.
- [47:09]
A
So.
- [47:09]
B
And so he's very harsh against this Jewish group which is disrupting and creating another gospel in. Through. Through works, again through circumcision. And so he uses some pretty strong language about them cutting themselves off. Right? So when you put it in the contrast as well, it makes great sense that you have this false Jewish group, ethnic Jewish group, who is not promoting the Messiah and faith in him alone. And so, but you have this other one, those who follow this rule, which it would be to gentiles in Galatians 6:16, as well as the true Israel of God which is following the true Jewish people, the Messianic Jewish believers who are following this rule, God bless them. So you have the two groups, clearly he's making distinction over and over. So really, you have three groups that he's discussing. You have the Judaizers, these false Jewish ethnic group which is confronting the Gospel. You have the Gentiles who are saved by faith according to faith alone. And then you have the Gentile or the Jewish Messianic believers who are following by faith in contrast to the Judea. So to me it seems quite clear in the context of the whole book when he talks about the Israel of God, there it is. So what that shows us too. And I can't let you go without. This is in Galatians 3. You mentioned it in, in as well. Well, some people will say, well, but it says that those who believe by faith are sons of Abraham. So if I'm, if I'm a son of Abraham, then I'm an Israelite, I'm a Jew. Why, why is that? Paul doesn't call them Israelites or even spiritual Israelites by faith. He doesn't even call them spiritual Jews. He calls them sons of Abraham. Why does son of Abraham not mean a Jew or an Israelite?
- [49:05]
A
Right, right. And it's a very important distinction, mundo, because this is a Hebraic Jewish phrase, Son of Abraham. It was a common way in the first century to speak of those who would align themselves with the faith of Abraham. All right? And that is so important because it's not really about just ethnic ethnicity, just, you know, about your bloodline. It's actually about your spirituality. Right. Do you have the faith of Abraham? Do you follow his example? We read similarly along those lines in James chapter two. Right. We have some other passages. Hebrews chapter 11, we see the example of Abraham as the robot, as the man of faith. Again, not in all the biblical stories of Genesis, he acted like that. But overall, we see him as a great man of faith. And the Lord calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So Gentile believers who call upon the name of the Lord, they call upon the name of the God of Israel, upon the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they can be called sons of Abram by faith. And it doesn't make them into Jews, it doesn't make them into. Into Israelites. Right. They have their own calling. So just like we read in First Corinthians, chapter 7. First Corinthians, chapter 7, another key passage that I want just to kind of highlight in our discussion. First Corinthians chapter seven. And we've got those verses here. If we read Starting in verse 17, 1 Corinthians 7:17 only as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each in this manner, let him walk. And so I direct, in all the churches, was any man called when he was already circumcised. He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. But what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. And now verse 20, each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. I think it's a great answer. So that condition is basically making us into sons and daughters of Abraham by faith. And it has nothing to do with your ethnic background, with your bloodline. You come to know the Messiah, the God of Israel. And spiritually, you need to align yourself with the remnant of Israel. So that is so important in biblical theology.
- [51:49]
B
And we know that Abraham had other sons from Keturah. We know that certainly Isaac had other through Esau. And so Abraham had a lot of descendants that were not Israelite or not a son of Jacob. So it's, it's. You got to be careful if you want to be a son of Abraham. Are you going to be an Ishmaelite? You know, right, because you had Ishmael too. So there's a whole lot of other descendants of Abraham that were not from Jacob himself. And so I think, I think people are trying to, to. To force this idea of, again, their goal is, is continuity. And I understand that, but we don't. The. That's forcing on the text, you could be a son of Abraham by faith because Again, as you mentioned, this is well known in the Greek language that you have. You have. Jesus called the Pharisees the sons of the devil, that obviously they don't become the devil, they're associated with the devil, they're followers of the devil. And there's. In their rejection. He also talked about the sons of the prophets or the sons of the Pharisees themselves, where they weren't necessarily literal sons, they were followers of that viewpoint. So it's interesting, the languages there, you know, as we wrap it up. Here you go. Why, for, for those that watch prophecy, which, you know, you and I both. Why is this topic important for us to get nailed down again? We're not, we're not, we're not saying that anybody. That's replacement theologians going to hell. That's. That's not what we're saying. They're. They, they're our brothers and sisters. But why is this topic then? Why are we spending the time on this? How does it affect our outlook as it relates to prophetic trends and what's coming?
- [53:31]
A
Oh, yes, I believe that a biblical healthy understanding of this topic can transform our lives spiritually. So when we look at God's Word, we clearly see God's heart. Right? We want to follow the heart of our heavenly Father. Right? We all want it. That's our desire. So we need to understand that God loves Israel. God loves the Jewish people. And now every believer has to ask the following question. Do I love those whom the Lord loves? Do I stand with God's people? Do I care about my Jewish neighbors, the Jewish brethren? And those are critical questions because we might just kind of say, oh, it doesn't matter. It's not a primary theological question. It's not really kind of a doctrine in the Bible and just brush it off. No, that's not the way to go, friends. We have God's Word given to us by the Holy Spirit. And we are to be. To be diligent students of the Word. We are called to be like the bereans of Acts 17. So with that understanding, when we get to the doctrine of Israel in the Bible, we see God's heart, God's promises, God's covenants. They never changed. We know that the Lord does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And we see important events unfolding before our own eyes in the Middle East. In Israel, we see the rise in anti Semitism. We see the rise in false doctrines, in biblical illiteracy. We see apostasy taking root in the church today. So with all of those events happening for our own eyes. How can we just bury our heads in the sand and just say, oh, I don't see, I don't know, I don't care. No, God will not bless us if we act that way. We are to have the love of Christ in our hearts. We are to carry the burden of Jesus Christ when he wept over Jerusalem, when he lamented over his beloved city, and he said, the time is coming. They will not see me until they say, blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord. So that should be our prayer today, Mondo. That should be our passion, that should be our heart desire to stand with the Jewish people, to love them, to pray for them, to support those who need to be supported. So it's really critical for our times. And again, just circling back, apologetics is an important tool in bringing that awareness to our brothers and sisters. It's okay to have a different opinion. It's okay to have a different interpretation of a given biblical text. Right? Nobody's perfect. We don't have all the answers. We all have our own theological blind spots. We come with humble hearts, with compassion, but with biblical conviction. That is so important for us to be grounded in the whole council of God, Genesis to Revelation. And with that understanding, we will be blessed by the Lord and will serve blessing to people around us.
- [56:58]
B
What's your, what's your website again?
- [57:00]
A
Yeah, so the website is Bibleapologist.org where is it? Bibleapologist.org It's a bilingual website, English and Russian. We invite your friends to check it out, subscribe, contact us, stand with us, and may the Lord bless prophecy watchers.
- [57:16]
B
Amen. Thanks, Igal, for being here today. And I just want to say that, you know, when we think about this topic, it's, as Igal said, it's, it's super important for us because if you can't get Israel right and you're looking at the world events, if you don't get that right, then the whole, all the events that are happening right now that are going towards a very specific end are going to end up being confusing and you're going to be like, well, there's nothing significant there. Oh, that doesn't really mean anything. When in fact it really does. It shows us again that the time is getting shorter and shorter and Israel being in the land, all the problems that they're having, all the enemies around them, even all this talk of the Board of peace, this is not accidental. This is part of the, of the Lord's plan to get us to the point again where he's going to have a conversation with Israel during the 70th week of Daniel, and that's going to show us again of what's coming and the Lord's return, which is hopefully is very, very soon. So thanks for watching today. As always, thank you for your prayers and support of what we do here, and we will catch you next time.