Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton

Episode 18: Glenn Greenwald – The Fall of John Bolton (Audio Enhanced)
Date: October 20, 2025
Guest Host: Jay Burden (for Darryl Cooper)
Main Guest: Glenn Greenwald

Brief Overview

This episode of "Provoked" explores the indictment and potential downfall of John Bolton, former National Security Advisor, with featured guest Glenn Greenwald. The hosts take a deep dive into the significance of Bolton’s alleged crimes, the broader implications for the national security state, and the cycles of elite impunity in Washington. The episode also touches on American myth-making around World Wars, hypocrisy in justice, and ends with a timely, troubling discussion on rising US military activities near Venezuela.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. World War II as American Civil Religion

[02:15–17:00]

• Discussion on Darryl Cooper’s new history podcast, focusing on telling the story of World War II from the German perspective.
• The hosts debate how WWII is not just history but “a morality play” and a foundational myth for US power.
  • "World War II has become mythic, not real history anymore. Not to say that it didn't happen, but it is the reason why America gets to be the world empire." – Jay Burden [07:41]
• They highlight the lack of comparable cultural taboo regarding other historical atrocities, reinforcing how WWII narratives justify current US and Israeli actions.
  • "You're witnessing the reaction not to a historical analysis, but to an attack on a heritage." – Jay Burden [08:42]
• Critique of how questioning central WWII myths provokes massive backlash, likened to “attacking religious dogma.”
• The American postwar state is framed as "the house that FDR built," with the current managerial structure rooted in WWII’s aftermath.
• Notable comparison to other historical controversies: critiques about Genghis Khan or Napoleon don’t spark the same outrage as those challenging WWII morality or the associated sacrosanctity of the American empire.
• Hosts argue that the mythology enables selective morality, especially in US support of allies like Israel.

2. John Bolton’s Indictment: Hypocrisy and Accountability

[17:06–42:24]

Glenn Greenwald Joins

[17:17]

• Greenwald, introduced with tongue-in-cheek, expresses deep satisfaction at Bolton’s fall:
  • "I try not to take pleasure in other people's misfortune, but I'm really failing in this case in my efforts. And I have to say, my efforts aren't even very sincere." – Glenn Greenwald [17:22]
• Compares Bolton’s casual, reckless handling of classified information to whistleblowers (Snowden, Manning, Assange), for whom Bolton demanded "life imprisonment or execution."
  • "He called on Edward Snowden to be hanged from an oak tree, like he had actually envisioned the type of tree." – Greenwald [18:02]
  • "John Bolton's just sending it like it was candy across AOL Group chats to his wife and daughter." – Greenwald [18:35]
• Points out double standard: “If anyone had done what John Bolton is accused of doing, I promise you he would be on every network demanding that they be put in prison or hanged from a tree.” – Greenwald [19:46]

Nature of the Prosecution

[20:25–24:19]

• Greenwald clarifies this isn’t a Trump vendetta; the investigation started late in Trump’s term and continued, then expanded under Biden’s Justice Department.
• Bolton’s case is more egregious than other high-level offenders like Petraeus, who were still treated leniently.
• Political calculations protected Bolton from prosecution under Biden (“he had become a very important political asset” as a Trump critic).

Is this Political Persecution?

[23:43–27:55]

• Greenwald: While Trump’s personal animosity towards Bolton is undeniable, “absent any political hostility... there would be a prosecution at least as aggressive as this one, if not more so.”
• The normal, apolitical DOJ process ran its course here; "not the kind of political case as with Comey or Tish James."
• Notable moment: “If this were a close ally of Trump... I’d be open to the argument that Trump would intervene. But I’m absolutely convinced... there’s just no way you can overlook [Bolton’s actions].” – Greenwald [26:47]

Legal Prospects

[27:55–30:56]

• Pleading not guilty is standard at arraignment; unless a plea deal is reached, Bolton must “fight this to the end” because of his prior campaign against leakers.
• The main legal challenge may involve the statute of limitations, but the broadness of the Espionage Act makes conviction straightforward if facts are as charged.

Broader Impunity

[33:41–35:33]

• Lower-level leakers and whistleblowers face harsh punishment, while powerful officials traditionally enjoy impunity.
• “The only people who get punished are the people with benevolent motives... the Chelsea Mannings and the Tom Drakes and the Edward Snowdens and the Julian Assanges.” – Greenwald [39:02]
• Leon Panetta, Petraeus, Panetta’s leaks for self-flattery and propaganda, all virtually unpunished.
• Bolton is an aberrational case: a high-level insider facing real consequences, possibly signaling a change in the impunity calculus.

On Schadenfreude

[40:46–42:09]

• “One of the things I'm really concerned about... on a humanitarian level is I don’t think his mustache... is permitted under the facial hair regulations of federal penitentiaries. He’s probably going to have to shave that off...” – Greenwald [40:53]
• "Putting John Bolton in prison for mishandling classified information is very much like getting Al Capone on tax evasion charges. John Bolton belongs to hanged at the Hague for endless numbers of war crimes." – Greenwald [41:16]

3. The Legacy of John Bolton: From North Korea to War Crimes

[42:24–47:55]

• Host Scott Horton summarizes Bolton’s disastrous legacy, especially blaming him for North Korea’s nuclear arsenal due to his sabotage of the Agreed Framework in Bush's first term.
  • “John Bolton is responsible for North Korea’s nuclear weapons arsenal. So what could be more sinful than that, what could be a worse legacy than that is basically unimaginable.” – Scott Horton [45:21]
• Jay Burden highlights Bolton’s consistent policy failures: “To say Bolton’s got a losing record is probably an understatement.”
• Both hosts express satisfaction at the prospect of Bolton finally facing consequences, even if it is for a lesser offense, likening it to Al Capone’s conviction for tax evasion.

4. Cycles of Lawfare and Elite Retribution

[47:55–56:28]

• Discussion broadens to talk about lawfare: the use of legal mechanisms for political vengeance.
• "They don’t hold themselves or each other accountable when they really deserve it, then they use the law and twist the law to fight against their enemies... at some point, there has to be some accountability if you’re ever going to get the ship right at all." – Scott Horton [55:10]
• The noxious, escalating cycles of legal attacks are seen as undermining "democratic norms"—if these ever really existed.

5. Venezuela Rumblings: Is War Coming?

[60:04–68:48]

• Scott raises alarm about possible US military action against Venezuela, citing large deployments of advanced weaponry and special operations near the country.
• "This could be a major conflict... This is not going to be like the invasion of Panama. This could be a major war... all we're being told about it is a bunch of crap about drugs and... no explicit casus belli of any kind." – Scott Horton [63:23]
• Jay echoes skepticism, calling the drug war justification a thin pretext.
  • "You want to fight drug trafficking? We wouldn't be in Venezuela; we'd be in Northern Mexico. That's where the cartels are... It's an excuse." – Jay Burden [64:50]
• Both see echoes of past US provocations, referencing “maneuvered into firing the first shot” rhetoric from Pearl Harbor and Gulf of Tonkin.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On WWII as Civil Religion

"World War II has become mythic, not real history anymore. Not to say that it didn't happen, but it is the reason why America gets to be the world empire." – Jay Burden [07:41]

On Hypocrisy and Elite Impunity

"John Bolton's just sending it like it was candy across AOL Group chats to his wife and daughter." – Glenn Greenwald [18:35]

"The only people who get punished are people with benevolent motives... the Chelsea Mannings and the Tom Drakes and the Edward Snowdens and the Julian Assanges." – Glenn Greenwald [39:02]

On Lawfare and Revenge

"You can't run up to your brother, sock him in the arm, and then run back and say, 'Oh, I'm on base now.' ... You have escalated." – Jay Burden [50:00]

"At some point, there has to be some accountability if you're ever going to get the ship right at all." – Scott Horton [55:10]

On Venezuela Buildup

"If this was a serious desire to fight drug trafficking... we wouldn't be in Venezuela, we'd be in northern Mexico. That's where the cartels are... It's an excuse." – Jay Burden [64:50]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:15–17:00] – Deconstructing WWII myths, Darryl Cooper’s new series
• [17:17–42:24] – Glenn Greenwald on Bolton’s fall, DOJ double standards, the Espionage Act
• [42:24–47:55] – Bolton’s foreign policy legacy and personal/professional failings
• [47:55–56:28] – Cycles of political lawfare, elite impunity, and the need for accountability
• [60:04–68:48] – Venezuela: military buildup and discussion of war pretext

Tone & Language

The episode is freewheeling, darkly humorous, intellectually rigorous, and acerbic in its criticism of US foreign policy and political hypocrisy. Glenn Greenwald in particular is biting in his condemnation of John Bolton and expresses open schadenfreude at his legal troubles, while both hosts are openly skeptical of bipartisan DC narratives.

For more, check out Glenn Greenwald on "System Update" and Jay Burden's show on YouTube.