Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton

Episode 19: The Shutdown Isn't About Money / It's About Power
Guests: Darryl Cooper, Scott Horton, Ronald Dodson
Date: October 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the ongoing U.S. government shutdown, which the hosts and guest argue is fundamentally a conflict over power—specifically, control of the burgeoning administrative state—rather than a simple budgetary impasse. Featuring guest Ronald Dodson, CEO of Dallas North Capital Partners and political/economic commentator, the conversation broadens out to address the dangers of unchecked bureaucracy, the historical arc of executive power, and the persistence of empire and centralized control in American politics.

Dodson’s recent article in The American Mind, "Cutting Back the Administrative State," serves as a springboard for an incisive discussion about the real stakes of the current shutdown and the opportunities (and threats) it presents. The episode also touches on foreign policy, institutional inertia, and the culture of the "deep state," with an extended back-and-forth on reform, accountability, and the lessons of political and military history.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emotional Toll of Big Projects & Historical Storytelling

• Darryl Cooper reflects on the anxieties and pressures inherent in producing large, historically grounded podcast series.
• On his acclaimed new Martyr Made series, Enemy: The Germans' War, Cooper explains the intention behind telling WWII from the German perspective to humanize even those widely regarded as villains.

  “My thinking is if I can get you, though, to humanize even them... then all the, you know, the people you see in the news, the people you see, like, coming up just in your daily life, that should be child's play.”
  [06:50] — D. Cooper

2. Why the Shutdown Matters: Not Just an Arcane D.C. Debate

• Ronald Dodson lays out the stakes: The administrative state has become so vast and untouchable that the average voter, or even the President, has little say over its ongoing activity.

  “The time to reduce this Leviathan is now... it's very much a startup feel over at OMB... the plans are, if this goes, you can make massive reductions.”
  [17:16] — R. Dodson

• Cooper expands on why Americans should care:

  “Our system was designed in a way that was meant to include a diversity of views ... but with the administrative state, you really have, like, a corporate culture that really encourages homogenization the way a corporate culture would...”
  [22:07] — D. Cooper

3. The Dangers of Unaccountable Bureaucracy

• Dodson and Cooper agree that the bulk of the government now operates with little voter oversight, leading to dangerous concentration, inertia, and lack of legitimacy:

  “99% of government activity ... being run by people who are not subject to any kind of political accountability, who can't be voted in or out...”
  [26:29] — D. Cooper

• Congress, eager to evade responsibility, happily cedes authority to agencies; changes in the structure are resisted by entrenched interests.

4. Executive Power, the Unitary Executive, & Constitutional Controversies

• The conversation delves into the constitutional role of the President. Dodson cites Hamilton’s Federalist 70 and the vesting clause in Article II, arguing for a strong executive as a critical balance to both Congress and the judiciary:

  “If the President doesn’t have the authority to execute the laws through his branch, then what do we see? ... Does the legislative branch really even legislate anymore?”
  [27:15] — R. Dodson

• Scott Horton expresses deep skepticism, drawing parallels to George W. Bush administration abuses of executive power:

  “The last time I heard anyone talking about the power of the unitary executive was when it was John Yoo and the W. Bush era lawyers arguing that it was perfectly legal for George W. Bush to kidnap and torture people to death ... that's the kind of unitary executive who has no intention of using that power to wage war against the bureaucracy and set the American people free.”
  [33:54] — S. Horton

5. Practical Challenges to Reform

• Even if a “reform” President tried to gut the bureaucracy, institutional inertia, legal protections, and judicial interventions (such as restraining orders from lower courts) make monumental changes extremely difficult.

  “If Trump today wanted to fire the entire middle management... he couldn't. It's impossible.”
  [55:02] — R. Dodson

• The discussion underscores the CIA and national security state as particular loci of unaccountable, “left-leaning” bureaucratic power; the only plausible check, some contend, would be shifting capabilities to the Pentagon with military backing.

  “If I was Trump, this is what I'd do. I would get all my four star generals ... and I would tell them: here's the plan, we're going to reduce the CIA to a bunch of nerds... and all of its operational capabilities, all that, is being rolled into the Defense Intelligence Agency.”
  [56:39] — D. Cooper

6. Administrative State, Foreign Policy, and Empire

• Dodson’s upcoming article addresses mischaracterizations of Leo Strauss and the use of Straussian philosophy to justify world empire and interventionism.
• The panelists argue the national security bureaucracy, designed for Cold War total war, was never retired—even as its justification waned, creating a self-perpetuating system that persists through legal, cultural, and economic means.

7. Cycles of Reform and the Limits of Nostalgia

• The group debates whether systemic change can come from “great man” leadership or is more driven by systemic inertia and cycles.
• On the idea of simply “returning” to the Old Republic, Cooper is clear-eyed:

  “The answer is not going to be found by going back to these... old ways that are totally unsuited to the modern era. ... The founders were world historical minds ... but I think even most of them, if you brought them up today and showed them the world today, they wouldn't tell you to go back to 1789.”
  [75:28] — D. Cooper

8. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Dodson on the F-35 program:

  “It's a seed platform with no legs... I'm very concerned.”
  [64:04] — R. Dodson

• On CIA Culture

  “There's a certain pride that's taken in that … once you have a culture within an institution that sinks down to that level, I mean, organized crime for a long time, you really, really have to go hard on it and cut it out... ”
  [58:17] — D. Cooper

Notable Timestamps

• 03:04–06:50: Darryl describes the intention behind his WWII series and addresses backlash about “humanizing” historical enemies.
• 14:20: Introduction of guest Ronald Dodson and his provocative take on the true legacy of World War II.
• 17:16–22:07: Dodson and Cooper outline the real stakes of the shutdown and the entrenched administrative state.
• 26:29–33:54: Deep dive into the disappearance of representative government and the false comfort of bureaucratic “neutrality.”
• 44:17–47:20: Dodson previews his upcoming article on Straussianism, foreign policy, and the pitfalls of American empire.
• 55:02–58:46: Dodson, Cooper, and Horton discuss the practical impossibility of significantly reforming the CIA and FBI, even for a willing president.
• 75:28–78:50: Reflections on the futility and dangers of nostalgia in politics and the inherent need for both structural and character-driven change.

Audience Q&A and Closing Reflections

• [67:17–75:28]: Super chat Q&A with listeners; questions range from CIA’s ideological origins (Progressive/Liberal, not "woke" by today’s standards) to the perennial question of whether systemic reform is even possible—and if so, how.

  Ron Dodson: “Nostalgia will kill you...You learn from history, and then...there's no way to get away from virtue and wisdom. We can have the perfect system, but without good men … it just doesn't matter.”
  [79:07]

Tone & Style

The episode is marked by a combination of acerbic wit, serious historical analysis, and a conversational, sometimes rambling, back-and-forth. Cooper provides philosophical and historical framing with measured clarity, Horton is antagonistic toward the power-hungry and national security apparatus, and Dodson offers a blend of legal, economic, and political insights, shot through with a touch of Southern dry humor.

In Summary

The shutdown, the hosts and guest argue, is less about fiscal minutiae and more about whether ordinary Americans, through their elected representatives, can ever regain control over a sprawling, self-perpetuating bureaucracy. Reform is possible—but unlikely to be easy or simply a return to past forms. True change, as all agree, will require both institutional rewiring and the rise of courageous and virtuous individuals, willing to fight the ultimate fight: that of accountability in a system built to avoid it.

For full context, listen to the episode or read Dodson’s articles at The American Mind and Responsible Statecraft. For ongoing analysis on the psychology of conflict and the challenge of political reform, subscribe to Provoked and the Martyr Made podcast.