Scott Horton (6:39)

That was what John McCain's wife said. Everybody knew.

Daryl Cooper (6:43)

Yeah. And so then you ask, you know, okay, then how, like, how are you getting on an airplane with this guy? How is it that he's just moving freely in the highest circles out there? And, you know, I think that the answer that I come to again and again, and I think this is just backed up by, you know, I just go through. I mean, you can go through a lot for this. It's just that, you know, for you and me to walk onto an airplane and have a bunch of underage girls come out in their underwear offering massages, that's a shocking thing. We don't see something like that every day. And it's going to jar us and. And awaken that sort of violent moral impulse, you know, but if you move in circles where, yeah, you know, the morality is always kind of pushing the boundaries and, you know, you're always kind of. I mean, think about, like, when Madison Cawthorn was in Congress briefly. You know, he was he from Georgia or North Carolina or something, but he went there and, you know, he's. He. After like a year, he came out and said he was, like, being invited to parties where he was being offered cocaine and being solicited for sex by men and women. And, man, they ran him out of town on a rail like, within a month or two after that, you know, and when you see things, when you hear things like that, and I've heard stories like that privately from other people about, like, the kind of things that go on in D.C. you know, you start to understand that you're, you know, when you get up to the highest levels, you're very often dealing with people who have disordered personalities that want to push the boundaries of, of, of kind of the bourgeois morality that the rest of us have to have to abide by, you know, in order to get by in the world. And so maybe it's just not that weird, you know, to Bill Clinton. I mean, you know, it's like he raped Juanita Broadrick. Like, how weird is it that. Like this. Yeah, he said, he tells me she's 19, she looks 16, but whatever. Like, these aren't people who are operating along the same moral lines that the rest of us are, you know, and that's first of all, like just a very important part of it. In my Epstein series, I talked about. I went through in great detail, as difficult and disgusting as it was, and talked about the art collection that Tony Podesta, the brother of John Podesta, who ran the biggest Democrat lobbying firm in D.C. for many, many years, the art collection he had, and I mean, it's straight up pedophilic child murder, child violence art that he is hanging. This is the thing that really got me about it is like, this was not some, some secret thing that the National Enquirer found out about him. I went back and bought just because I was worried that it was going to disappear, you know, forever. One day I bought a hard copy of the. I think it's 19. No, it was the early 2000s, Architectural Digest magazine where they profiled his house and they went through, took all these pictures and everything, and the art is on the wall in his house for the Architectural Dig Digest profile. Right. So he's proud of this. He's putting this out there when he has a bunch of people over for a party. Scott, if you, if you get invite. If I invite you and your wife over for a party at my house, and you come over and there's pictures of dead kids, little girls in their underwear tied up on the walls, big paintings. I mean, I, I have a. I have a feeling like our relationship is not going to be the same after that, you know?

Scott Horton (10:07)

Yeah. I mean, I've seen some like, metal head imagery that is like pretty dark, but not children chained to the wall. Like, I know in one of those. I think it's like a little boy in his Underwear, and it's like white tile. He's chained to the wall. He's. I get the idea that that's a real kid. That really happened, and somebody sat there and painted him. You know what I mean? That's not just the imagination of some creep.

Daryl Cooper (10:32)

That.

Scott Horton (10:32)

That is a real victim, that all.

Daryl Cooper (10:36)

Of those particular paintings, those are all part of a series that that artist did, and she was very specific about. She was exploring the trauma of pedophilia and things like that. Like, she's given interviews about it. And in the. The final. The final piece of that series, it's in that tiled room, which one of my friends, before I had seen this final piece, he used to work in a slaughterhouse, and he saw all those paintings and he said, oh, that's a slaughterhouse. He said, I worked. I know what a slaughterhouse looks like. That's what that is. Because some people thought maybe it was like a look, like a swimming pool. There's, like, conspiracy theories that it looks like the Vanderbilt swim pool or something. But then the last. The last painting in the series is in one of those tiled rooms, and it's a bunch of butchers sitting around with bloody aprons and their knives. And one of them has the King George's cross on one of his. On his towel and things like that. So she's very explicit. I mean, this is a. This is a slaughterhouse with a bunch of children tied up in their underwear and compromised positions. I mean, that's. And these are hanging on the wall of the most powerful lobbyist in Washington in the place where he would invite, again, Architectural Digest to come take pictures. Like it's all good. You know, the place where he would invite people over for soirees, like, it's all good. And you just have to wonder, like, what is. What is the difference here between, you know, these circles and the ones that most of us are used to, that something like that could just be considered normal for people to the point there'd be no shame, in fact, pride about it. And it's very different. And it goes a long way to explaining how somebody like Jeffrey Epstein could. Could, you know, travel in those circles openly for as long as he did. I mean, so that's the first interesting question. The second one is obviously all of the intelligence agency connections that are, you know, one of the things people always bring up in this conversation. And ones like it is, I'll say that all the evidence. That's all circumstantial evidence. And it's. Yeah, it is. It's all circum. Circumstantial evidence, basically. Because when you're dealing with organized crime, when you're dealing with intelligence agencies, when you're dealing with organizations that. That secrecy is the name of the game for them. You know, it's not as if they're gonna leave the notes of their criminal conspiracy, like, written down in detail for you to find in their safe or something you put together. But you can put together a case on circumstantial evidence when it mounts up enough because you get to the point where, yeah, okay, maybe I haven't like, been able to A to B all the way to Z, like, prove the connection of all this that amounts to this. But there's a, There's a mountain of it now, a big enough mountain of circumstantial evidence that the onus is now on you to explain to me how this means anything other than, you know, in this case, that, that Epstein was, was being run by intelligence agencies. The U.S. it probably. And, and, and Israel is.

Scott Horton (13:29)

All right, well, let me hold you to that then. So, so I mean, obviously the biggest piece of evidence that we have is a statement of the federal prosecutor that gave him that sweetheart deal you referred to earlier. So what was it that he said?

Daryl Cooper (13:43)

And yeah, so me. It was Alex Acosta. He was the U.S. attorney for the Southern Southern District of Florida back in 07, when Epstein got convicted the first time. And he's later on, he was being interviewed, doing, you know, background and vetting for Labor Secretary under Trump in the first administration. And in his interview with them, they asked him about, you know, this might be something that comes up in the news, like, what, what, what exactly happened there? Like, why, why did he get such a, such a great deal like this? And he said that he was told from his, by his bosses that Epstein belonged to intelligence and to leave it alone. Now you have to think this is a U.S. attorney in the Southern District of Florida. There's basically like two people who could tell him that. That's the Deputy Attorney General and the Attorney General himself. Like, those are the only two people that could tell a U.S. attorney in that position that you have to ignore the 36 underage witnesses who are all accusing this guy of sexual assault. You have to take this open and shut case and you have to just shove it aside and give him a deal that nobody's ever even heard of before. You know, he, he got 13 months in jail when they had 36 underage witnesses accusing him of sexual assault, independently corroborating details of the crime scenes, like all these. And these girls didn't know each other. And he got 13 months in jail where he was allowed to leave the jail for most of the day, five days a week. He would have to come back and sleep in the jail. He had a wing of the jail that was completely dedicated only to him. And he was able to hire his own private security guards to like watch over him while he was in there.

Scott Horton (15:29)

Okay, but maybe that's just because he's a rich guy, right?

Daryl Cooper (15:34)

Sure. Again, it's you. Well, well, maybe not, right? Here's what I would say. Look, man, like being super rich, it did not help Bill Cosby. It did. You know, there's a lot of people, I think if you, if you were to go take some random hedge fund manager, you know, because there's a. Everybody's a billionaire these days. Some random tech guy or hedge fund manager. Not George Soros, forget about all the connections, right? Some guy you've never heard of, but he's got $8 billion or something like that. And you know, he gets busted for like 30 witnesses. Underage. All sentiments. His money is not going to save him. His ass is going down. You know, that is just not enough. It's not enough because, I mean, you have to think about it, like for Alex ACOSTA As a U.S. attorney down there, this is a career making case. Are you kidding me? Billionaire playboy running a vast underage sex ring. And like all this, you're going to be the attorney general one day behind this. You know what I mean?

Scott Horton (16:29)

So when he says belongs to intelligence, that just means the agency, right? Or does that mean Israel?

Daryl Cooper (16:36)

Well, it has to mean the, the U.S. first of all, right? I mean, in the sense that they were aware of it and benefiting from his action in some way that, you know, that, that the U.S. authorities felt that it was in their interest at least to, to let this guy continue to operate. I mean, I. So in other words, he may have been working for Israeli intelligence, but he was certainly doing so with the full knowledge of the United States. You know, government. They just. Otherwise, you know, they would.

Scott Horton (17:05)

Yeah, and there's a question of how he got so rich in the first place. To even be a rich guy. I mean, I saw a thing, Netflix documentary, I think, where they said. I forgot if they showed people or they just talked about how like the, the universe of financial managers for billionaires in the world is very small and they all know each other and they all know whose wealth they're managing. And nobody knows this guy, this guy's not one of us. And it's just you're either in that club or you're not, you know.

Daryl Cooper (17:41)

Yeah, the only reason the, the sort of official or semi official, popular understanding version of that story has hung around at all is because people don't know any of what you're talking about right now. People just are not familiar with that world. Right. So when you hear a story, for example, and this is like been documented, interviewed by somebody who knew Epstein back when he was, you know, younger guy he was, when he was 30 years old. So he's like a young guy just kind of getting started out really had just left Bear Stearns not that long ago and now he's out. He left Bear Stearns, by the way, ignominiously after getting run out for regulatory violations. He's running his own outfit now and he says that he only accepts accounts of $1 billion or more. If you have less than $1 billion to invest with him, don't even show up. And so there's this, there' this interview with a guy who knew him back, back during these days and says that he thought he would do Epstein a solid and so he brought him this account. There was a guy at $600 million to invest that he wanted to invest with Epstein. And so he brings them to him and Epstein blows him off. Too small. I don't, I don't deal with that. And it's like you can hear that and if you don't have any connection to that world, maybe, maybe not. Look, if you got $600 million to invest, Goldman Sachs will have their CEO meet you at the front door and take you up his private elevator to a conference room where the company's vice presidents will give you a presentation as to why you should choose them over Citibank or something like that. I mean they will roll out the golden carpet for you. If you got $600 million to invest, and this was back in the 80s by the way, that's like one and a half, $2 billion today, right? So you show up to the biggest, most powerful investment bank in the world. You, you know, you don't audition for them to manage your money, they audition to manage your money. You know, the different banks, that's just how this kind of thing works. The idea you've got this 30 year old guy who just can blow off a 600 million dollar, you know, adjusted for inflation, 1.5 billion dollar investment into his hedge fund is, it's just absurd on its face. And the only, the only answer that I can think of, and I've thought a lot about is just the obvious one. This guy was not running a hedge fund. You know, like, you got to think, too. Like, when you go to a hedge fund, when you go. Or when you go to an investment bank like Goldman Sachs, one of the things that conference room full of vice presidents is going to tell you is they're going to show you, like, the team of analysts and traders and stuff that are going to be fully devoted to just your account. Researchers, mathematicians, all this kind of thing that are going to just be devoted to you. Epstein supposedly, like a dude on his E Trade account, like, running this out of his apartment or something. It's just totally ridiculous, you know, I mean, and as far as what you said, like, about how nobody's ever done business with this guy, nobody's ever heard of a big deal he's made or anything like that, and you say, okay, well, you know, maybe it was on the down low, maybe just was discreet about things. Again, when you're talking about this kind of money, you know, you don't. You don't log on to E Trade and like, add a few shares of Microsoft or something. You get together a bunch of brokers who can pull together enough available shares and structure the purchases in a way that it doesn't just eat up all the liquidity, you know, on a given day. And like, it's a very complicated operation. And you don't just buy shares, you take a position in the company. You know, this is like, these are the kind of moves that people at this level make. These are institutional things that happen. And the idea that nobody has ever even heard of anybody who's heard of anybody who's done a deal with a guy who's supposedly running, you know, running a fund so big that he can just blow off $600 million investors is just ridiculous on its face. And that's not how he made his money. And I think at this point, everybody who's looked even reasonably seriously into this at least accepts that part that we don't know well, we don't know exactly where his money came from. That leads us kind of to the next. To the next part, which is very. This is a very strange one because, like, I have met some billionaires. I don't. I can't claim to be friends or buddies with any of them, and they certainly don't talk about their money with me. But I would just assume that if you're a guy who runs giant corporations, you know, I'm talking about his his sort of benefactor slash mentor, slash. Who knows Leslie Wexner, who ran Limited Brands, which is Abercrombie and Fitch and Limited and all those. He was the biggest clothing retailer in the country, I think, back in the 90s and early 2000s and so multi. Multi billionaire. And he brings this young guy, Jeffrey Epstein in, and he gives him full power of attorney over his entire business operation. Jeffrey Epstein could take out loans in his name. He could sign his tax returns. He could start businesses in his name. He could full power of attorney. Okay? This was not limited at all. He could do anything he wanted with his entire business empire. He was in charge. And Les Wexner would have some of his executives who. They're just executives who are working for his company and trying to, you know, maximize shareholder value. And they're. They're showing up and they're like, who is this guy? Like, what is going on? Like, sir, we're not so sure this is a great. Fired him. People that he had known for years and years and years who thought they were good friends with him, they've been interviewed. They said, as soon as I brought up, you know, some of the concerns about this Epstein guy, he cut me off. He wouldn't answer my calls. After 20 years of talking to this guy, regularly being friends with him, he just cut me off. And so you say, well, you know, what. What possible explanation would there be for somebody like Leslie Wexner to give a guy like Jeffrey Epstein that much control over his business operations? When you have to, like, you know, you have to look at Jeffrey Epstein's history a bit, right? His first job, after he dropped out of college, he didn't finish college. His first job was to get hired as a high school math teacher at this really prestigious private school, the Dalton School in New York City. This is one of the most prestigious private high schools in the country. If they wanted to hire a math teacher, presumably they could have any high school math teacher in the country that they wanted would come to New York to work at this place. But they hire Jeffrey Epstein, who was a college dropout with no teaching experience, and they put him in there, and he only lasts a few years. There's complaints from young girls, surprise, surprise, that he's been inappropriate with them. After a few years, he. He leaves that job. I'm not sure exactly the circumstances whether he was fired or. Or just left. But, you know, one of the. One of the things that. One of the facts about this whole case that just, you know, makes you think, like, that we really are living In a simulation or something like this is just too insane and crazy to like be real. Is the guy the headmaster of the Dalton School who hired Jeffrey Epstein, this is back in the 1970s, the headmaster of that school who hired this guy who had dropped out of college with no teaching experience, who would go on to become one of the most famous heads of a pedophile ring in the history of the country. His name was Donald Barr. Donald Barr just happens to have been the father of Bill Barr, the Attorney General who arrested Jeffrey Epstein in 2018 and then oversaw the prison where he committed suicide, quote, unquote. And so that's an interesting coincidence. Yeah, well, it's also an interesting coincidence that Donald Barr also used to work for the oss, which is the precursor to the CIA. Of course, don't know about his connections to the CIA like in later years, but he worked for the OSS back in the day and he had a side gig. You know, he liked to run a private high school. That was one thing he did. But he also, like, he was an author, he was an artist, you know, he liked to write. So his thing was he liked to write pulpy science fiction novels, right? And he has one called Space Relations. And this is all true, man, like people who haven't heard it like, yet. And I know a lot of people have, like, you can look this up on Wikipedia, it's totally mainstream. This is not like, you know, reading between any lines or anything. He wrote a book called Space Relations, which was about a guy who was taken as a slave to this planet, where all of the elites on this planet breed children so that they can sexually abuse them. There are scenes in there, like in one of the opening scenes when the guy's being taken away on the, on the spaceship to this place to be traded, where a crew, you know, the members of the crew, they raped this 15 year old girl in front of them. And then the story, as it goes, is the, the woman oligarch that he gets sold off to as a sex slave takes a liking to him and he kind of becomes her partner and he starts participating in all this and like he and her are abusing all the girls and everything. And so like, this is, this is the guy who hired Jeffrey Epstein, who just happens to have worked for the precursor to the CIA earlier in his career, who just happens to be the father of the Attorney General who hire. Who arrested and oversaw the death of Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. You know, and Bill Barr, of course, I mean, he, you know, he was, he's a CIA guy himself, obviously, you know, he ran the Agency back in the day and back in the. What was it during the. I can't remember if it was Church or Pike, but during the, during the hearings in the 1970s, when the CIA was really under the gun. Bill Barr's first job out of college, he was an intern for the CIA, which sounds like, okay, whatever, but he was a legal intern whose job was to be the liaison between Central Intelligence Agency and Congress during these hearings. So, I mean, this is a very important gig that he had here at a very critical time in the Agency's history. So this is a guy who, especially given his father's Pettigroup, the oss, was embedded like all through this period of time. And while Jeffrey Epstein would have been like, at the height of his operations in the 80s and 90s, you know, he would have been very aware of all this. And so Jeffrey Epstein, he does, he does the math teacher thing at Dalton for a few years. There's a lot of rich and powerful people who have their kids here. And one of them is Ace Greenberg, who ran Bear Stearns, the investment bank that went under in March 08 for a while. And so he talks his way into an investment banking job at Bear Stearns. He leaves the high school and he goes and does this and he works as a trader for like a very short period of time, but very quickly they move him into what they said was their special product products division. And according to, I can't remember if it was Greenberg or Jimmy Cayne who was also the CEO there. It was Jimmy Cayne. He said that what Epstein did, he gave this sort of elaborate, sort of, you know, find Wall street speak version of it. He said he helped wealthy people find ways to hide their money. So basically he was a money launderer for, for Bear Stearns. And that's what he spent his time learning to do and getting really good at in the few years that he was with Bear Stearns. And eventually he, he gets a little too bold, I guess, in his, in his strategies and decisions and he comes under the eye of Sauron regulators and so they let him go. But you can kind of, you know, one way you can tell that he, you know, he wasn't doing anything that the bank didn't ask him to do is that he stayed close with Jimmy Cayne and Ace Greenberg way later, way later in life. Like, he, you know, there was no hard feelings between him and Bears. He himself continued to bank at Bear Stern for, for decades after this. And so, you know, he was let go. They had to let him go because of, you know, the attention. But he wasn't doing anything that they weren't telling him to do.

Scott Horton (29:25)

You know what, Darren seems like you describe and how this guy keeps getting guys laid and then blackmailing them, but then staying friends with them for years afterwards. Right? Like that's three. Keep going.

Daryl Cooper (29:38)

Yeah. So after he gets run out of Bear Stearns, like, this is the crazy part. I mean, when you see somebody like this who, like there are people out there who are charming, there are people out there who are intelligent, there are people out there who have all these great qualities, but there's still a certain, especially, you know, there's still a certain point where you have to pay your dues and put in a little bit of time in order to move up to certain things. Right. And like he gets run out of Bear stearns. He's only 28 years old. His entire resume is that he worked for a few years as a high school teacher. He dropped out of college, worked for a few years as a high school teacher, left under a cloud of female students saying he was inappropriate with them. Goes to Bear Stearns for a few years as a junior trader and then a special products guy and then gets run out of there for regulatory violations. Now he's 28 years old. And the next time he pops up in the news or the stories that we have of him, interviews with people who knew him and all that, you know, different, different people. If you take all the sources, the next time he pops up, he's 28 years old. This is the entirety of his resume, what I just listed up to this point. And he's on a private plane with the British arms dealer Douglas Lease to go to a meeting at the Pentagon. This is like 1981. And you know, Douglas Lease is one of those guys who you're not going to find a lot about him, you know, online and, you know, people like his daughter denies that he was a weapons broker and stuff. But, you know, one of the things that you will find about him is in the minutes to the British parliamentary meetings back in, I want to say it was like 85, maybe 84, when the British had a, the really big arms deal with Saudi Arabia, the Al Yamama deal. And it was, I think at the time, and maybe still now was the big, biggest British arms deal in their history. And they're selling to, to Saudi Arabia. And Lisa's name comes up in the discussions and debates on the floor of the Parliament there and they talk about him as one of the guys who's helping arrange and fac. And so, you know, you have this guy who's a sort of off the books kind of unofficial weapons broker. And 28 year old Epstein, failed math teacher, failed, you know, investment banker, 28 year old guy with no college degree is on a private plane with him to the Pentagon in 1981 to have a meeting about who knows what I think personally, you know, given, given his history up to that point, it's, it's pretty clear what his role there was. I mean, because that's the question you're asking is like, what do they want with him? What do they want with this guy? And when you're talking about intelligence agencies, just like when you're talking about organized crime, you are always talking about money laundering. It is, you know, people think of money laundering is like this sort of like boring side thing, you know, that organized crime stuff has to do because just this kind of afterthought, you get some nerdy accountant to go do the stuff. And money laundering is absolutely central to organized crime and their cousins, you know, in the intelligence world. Like, I mean, perfect example, like you get up a few years later and you get to the Iran Contra deal, right, Where Congress had passed a law saying that we cannot provide weapons or support to the Nicaraguan Contras CIA and the Bush, the Reagan administration still wants to do it. I should probably still say the Bush administration in the 80s, but I won't, you know, they still want to do it. Office. Yeah, yeah. When you have somebody like George H.W. like, you know, I think Tucker likes to say how we haven't had a real president since 1963, you know, and that's generally true. Where it's not true is like with George H.W. like a dude who is the head of the CIA, he's like, he is the system that controls the president. And so he can get in there and probably carry more weight than others. But you know, you have to figure out how to sell weapons to Iran, which is under an embargo. You can't, it's illegal to sell weapons to Iran. You have to figure out how to do that and then take the proceeds from that and get it over to the people in Central America that you want to fund. And that's also illegal. And so you can't have, you know, like one of the deals, one of the, one of the tranches of money that passed between us, Israel, Israel was a conduit, conduit for the weapon sales to Iran. It was an $800 million sale. And so if you have like a, a pallet of hundred dollar bills that is 4ft high and completely stacked with hundred dollar bills, that's about $50 million. And so 16 full 4 foot high pallets of hundred dollar bills is one tranche of like one payment for, you know, that, that passed in the weapons deal. If you have that kind of money, like you can't just write the CIA a check and you know, have them take it down to bank of America to the CIA checking account and deposit. I mean, these are things that, you know, these are, these are things that are handled by large institutions, you know, this kind of money. And so if you're going to do something like this and you can't have a money trail because everything you're doing is illegal from front to back. You got to have guys who know how to build shell corporations and send stuff offshore and do all these convoluted things that happen on a small scale all the time with drugs, drug trafficking and things. But in a very, very large scale. When you're talking about intelligence operations and large scale organized crime, you have to have guys who are extremely skilled at this because as we've seen, the money is how these guys always get brought down. You know, somebody gets sloppy with how they, how they hide the money and how they hide where it came from and where it went. And that's what brings it down. Everybody from Al Capone to, you know, to John Gotti. And so, you know, like, so Jeffrey Epstein was a money launderer. That's what he started out as. That's what he, that's what he did at Bear Stearns in an official capacity. He got fired from Bear Stearns, you know, for like flying a little too close to the sun with his tactics, but, you know, stayed friends with everybody, kept his accounts there and everything. And then right after he's done there, he's on this plane with a weapons broker to the Pentagon. And he's there because he's a money launderer. He's a skilled money launderer, you know, and if you're a good money launderer, man, it's one of those things that it's a, it's a ticket into worlds that you would otherwise never be qualified to walk around in. You know. And Epstein kind of figured out, I think later that there's another. And I don't know if this was after the money laundering thing kind of ran out or if it just kind of happened naturally because of his own proclivities that he ended up sharing with the people he was coming into contact with. But the other one is, you know, there's certain things that it doesn't matter how rich you are, if you don't know a guy, then you just, you can't just pick up the phone and call Domino's and have them, for example, send you an underage girl. Like you can't. Just doesn't matter how rich you are. You could have a hundred billion dollars. You can't tell your assistant, go get me a 14 year old girl and have him show up. He has to know somebody who would have be able to arrange something like that, right? This is why, like back in the 60s when Charles Manson was running around and you hear that he's like living with one of the Beach Boys and all these rock stars are having them around all the time and he's like this grubby five foot two, like ex convict, weirdo, drug, druggie with. Well, what did he have that nobody else had? If he could show up to your party with a stable of 25 young, often underage girls who were ready to do anything, he said. And in the 1960s and early in the 1960s when he was operating, I mean, that was like a golden ticket into any place he wanted to go in Hollywood or wherever else he was. And so I think Epstein kind of figured that out too. You know, it makes you somebody who's very valuable because you can get something that nobody else can get and provide, you know, provide things to people who are used to being able to pick up the phone and call Domino's and have anything they want show up at their door. But they can't get this unless they have a guy like you. And so, you know, I think that as you go through, you know, the Epstein's career throughout the 80s, because he only pops up here and there, you know, I mean, this was not a world famous man back then, but there are people who know him who have been, who have been interviewed over the years. And many of them, by the way, before any of the sexual stuff ever came out. You know, he actually got, he was in a, he, he started a, a fund with a guy named Stephen Hoffenberg, who was interviewed back in 2003 by Vicky Ward for, I believe it was for Vanity Fair or, or Rolling Stone, but she was writing a profile of Epstein. She talked to Hoffenberg, who was in prison for actions that he took while he was running this company with Epstein. And it was because, you know, they were doing this together and they should have both gone to prison for it. But Epstein flipped on him and Hoffenberg went off to prison and Epstein stayed out. And so you get little things like that where you get bits and pieces of like his biography in the, in the 80s and early 90s. And what you see again is him popping up again and again with, with people. You know, he called himself a financial bounty hunter. So basically, you know, you would. You have rich people that need to hide a certain amount of money. They're going to get taxed $100 million on it, you know, if, if it stays out in the open. He's a bounty hunter. He goes and finds a way to save 70 million of that for them. And then he gets a, you know, he gets a chunk of that. And like, that's the kind of thing that he would do. And all of these, you know, skills are, you know, related to money laundering, forensic accounting, all the stuff that he do. And my, my impression and this could be. Well, actually, no. Okay, you know, let me back up again because there's so much detail of this story, it's really easy to get confused. I should have all my notes here in front of me. But it was through Douglas Lease that he was introduced in the early 80s to Adnan Khashoggi, who's a Turkish born Saudi guy who's like, you know, he's sort of the, he's like the, he's like the, like the, like the Looney Tunes kind of over the top racist caricature of what like an Arab, a decadent Arab prince is like, you know, just giant yacht which was bought by Donald Trump later on, by the way.

Scott Horton (40:11)

And cousin is the guy that was murdered by the Saudi king uncle.

Daryl Cooper (40:15)

Yeah. And that was Jamal Khashoggi, the guy who was murdered in the Turkish embassy by the Saudis. Yeah. And so he was his uncle. And so this is a family that's very close to power. And Adnan Khashoggi was, he did a lot of things. One of the things he did was, you know, he was a weapons broker. He was one of the main people actually who was facilitating the weapons transfers to Iran during the Iran Contra deal. And it was again, because you have to, you have to have people who are sort of like off the books but very well connected to do anything like this. You can't call Raytheon and be like, hey, send $800 million worth of weapons to Iran, but don't tell anybody. You know, that's just not how it works. You have to have people cutouts, you know, and so that's one of the things that Adnan Khashoggi would do. And he was deeply involved in Iran Contra. And it was. I think it was 83. 83, I believe, when Epstein was introduced as part of all this to Robert Maxwell. And Robert Maxwell, you know, he's such an interesting figure, man. He's like, you know, everybody who looks into the Epstein story and just. Even. Even knows who Maxwell is, everybody hates him. And you should hate him. He was a nasty guy and everything, but he's still like somebody that you look at, you're like, damn, man, Say what you want.

Scott Horton (41:34)

Movie.

Daryl Cooper (41:35)

Yeah, yeah, it was great. And he was a guy who, you know, if you just take the amorality away, he was an impressive dude, man. He was a hustler, like. So he. He was from. He was a Jewish guy from Czechoslovakia. And when it looks like the. The. The war is about to kick off and the Germans are about to invade, he flees the country. He's like 19, I think, 20 years old, flees the country and goes to France. Gets there in May 1940, which is not the best time to flee to France. For anybody who knows their history, it was not long before the Germans were overrunning that country as well. And so he flees from there, manages to escape again, and gets to England. He's changed his name like, three or four times. Like, by this point, he's in England now. He starts working with the Czech government in exile there, but gets really frustrated with them. Signs up for the British army, and they. Once, you know, Normandy happens and everything. He goes over there and he's a. He's a soldier, man. Like, I mean, he saw a lot of combat. He was, you know, physically courageous. He actually got awarded the second highest award in the British army, which would be the Distinguished Service Cross or the Navy Cross, like in the US Military, very high award. They don't just hand those things out for storming a machine gun nest. So he's a very physically courageous, kind of just a ballsy guy, you know, who. Who doesn't wait around for things to happen to him. Like, he goes and makes things happen, you know, and he. He would. Later on, he got. He got fingered in an investigation. Never. Never charged or convicted or anything, but he was named in a probe for murdering unarmed German civilians in the aftermath and late part of the war there. But once we occupy Berlin and occupy Germany, Maxwell's sort of, you know, he turned out to be a lot more useful than just as a guy, a grunt holding a gun. You know, he spoke several Languages. He had already made a lot of connections. He was again, very ballsy guy. And so he went to work for British Intelligence and they would have him there doing things like interrogating captured Wehrmacht and SS officers and, and Third Reich officials, you know, which was, you gotta imagine a pretty nasty business itself. And he, he gets back to, he gets back to England after the war and starts an import export business that, you know, the, the point of it really is to, is to get things from behind the Iron Curtain, the emerging iron Curtain that people would want on the other side of it and do an import export using the connections that he had still back, you know, back in the old country. And so he starts doing that and eventually starts a publishing company which specializes in basically like, it eventually became just a huge publishing empire. But like the way he got his, you know, his feet under him and really started to grow was he had basically a monopoly on getting scientific journals from behind the Iron Curtain and bringing them out and translating them for Western scientific audiences. And so, you know, he, he grows that into multi billion dollar publishing empire. Daily Mirror, New York Daily News, like all these things he eventually, eventually owns down the line. When you get to, let's see, this would have been 47, 48. So he's got his import export business going. He's got connections to British intelligence. He is maybe 25 years old I think, at this point. And he, at this, while he was in, while he was in Britain, he had become very enmeshed with the Zionist scene there and really kind of had become a convinced like ideologue when it came to Zionism. And so when they need weapons, you know, after the British got run out of Palestine by the Zionist terrorists in 47, 48, they put a weapons embargo on design on the Zionist movement. And then this early State of Israel, it was illegal to send anything to them. And so they needed weapons though, and they got them. And the way that they got them was usually black market, off the book stuff. And the way that you got to do things like that is you need people who can do it, you know, I mean, it's one of those things like where a lot of times things that pass in the news or in history books with like a line or two, you know, lets us kind of glide past the, the incident or the event without really unpacking all of the background stuff that is required to accomplish something like that, you know. And so for example, like you would hear about like. And this is, you know, just, this is just an example, but you would Hear about like, oh, there's you know, a member of ISIS who is from, you know, Algiers and he's in Syria now, like fighting or whatever. And you're like, okay, wait, you have like a half literate dude from the slums of Algiers who somehow got on a plane to Istanbul, found his way to the border, managed to make his way through the country, got arms and training, and got there without being killed by the first person who saw him in, found the right people to get hooked up with and just did all this on his own. And the answer is obviously, of course he didn't do it on his own. It's ridiculous. You know, and so when the Zionists need weapons and they pulling them from anywhere they can get them, you need guys like Robert Maxwell, guy who runs an import export business who's already running behind and in front of the Iron curtain doing different things, speaks several languages, connections to intelligence, and has the balls to actually accomplish all that, this. And so one of the, you know, main things that he was specifically like assigned to was getting aircraft and aircraft parts to the Zionists and really was like a decisive thing in their 48 war against the Arabs. And so here's another example, by the way, and this is just sort of, you know, to, to kind of flesh out the point. Lyndon Johnson actually was, was involved with getting weapons and other supplies to the Zionists in defiance of American law back during these years when, when the Americans we, we had a weapons embargo, you know, over there. And he was working with a Zionist friend of his there in Texas. And you can read all about this if you want to go to Washington D.C. and go into the Holocaust Museum and, and look up a paper by Louis Gamelek. It's been written about in the Times of Israel and other places. But I actually went and read the whole thing like, because I was just, I've been fascinated by this. Lyndon Johnson was a U.S. congressman at the time and he was working with a private sector friend in Texas there to get weapons and other supplies sent to the Zionists in Palestine in defiance of American law. Totally off the books. Like, not this. As far as I know, there's no evidence that this was something that he was doing in collusion with US Intelligence or anything like that. I mean, he was a. Lbj, was like a very, very, very committed supporter of Israel, like going all the way back. His, his aunt was one of the founders of the Zionist Organization of America. His mistress was a longtime member of the Irgun terrorist organization, Zionist terrorist organization. He was one of those guys who was just very committed. And so, you know, they were shipping off weapons in crates marked for Texas grapefruit out to Palestine and to get them to the Zionists. And so that's the kind of thing that's happening. That's just one example. Maxwell's another example. They were pulling these things anywhere they could. You know, the Jewish mafia in the United States and Europe was. Was a big part of helping the Zionists get what they needed out there. And so when you. When you need to get something like that, like, like to. To come back forward, like Iran Contra going, you know, again, this is not something that, like, one guy can pull off. You need money launderers. You need people in the region with connections who can actually facilitate the transfers across guarded borders. And.

Scott Horton (49:28)

Okay, wait, let me jump in here for a second. I mean, Daryl, it seems like you're kind of raising the question of like, maybe this was the guy' was not maybe, like, it was just a coincidence that he was a child rapist and he wasn't blackmailing all these guys. He was just a money launderer and that's why he's best friends with so many of these other powerful people. Something like that. What do you think?

Daryl Cooper (49:46)

Yeah. So, I mean, I think early on that, that that is true. He was a money launderer. There may have been a second phase of his career. And again, I think, like, I don't get. I don't. I don't like trying. I don't like getting, like, too far over my skis on this. On this issue, because there's obviously, it's one of those things that just invites all kinds of speculation and conspiracy theories. And you have to kind of. You have to.

Scott Horton (50:11)

On that Netflix documentary, they have two different, very credible witnesses who say they saw Bill Clinton at that island down there. So maybe he was just hanging out for, like, fun in the sun. But then again, I already know he's a rapist because I saw Juanita Broderick's interview, long suppressed interview when they finally released it in 1999.

Daryl Cooper (50:32)

Yeah.

Scott Horton (50:32)

And she's the most believable person in the world on that subject. Give me a break.

Daryl Cooper (50:37)

So, I mean, full story corroborated by her friend at the time. You know, her friend at the time talked about how her lip was split and all that. I mean. Yeah, so it's a very corrupt people.

Scott Horton (50:47)

Who don't know the story. By the way, I believe it was Lisa Myers at NBC News finally convinced her to give her an interview, and then they Buried the interview for months and waited till after Clinton was acquitted in the Senate. And only then did, I guess, the Wall Street Journal started running things about it on the editorial page. And then they finally published the NBC interview after it was too late to get rid of the guy.

Daryl Cooper (51:08)

Yeah, but one of the things that Stephen Hoffenberg, Epstein's business partner, who he helped put in prison, told Vicky Ward was that Epstein had told him.

Scott Horton (51:19)

Who's Vicky Ward? Again, this is the.

Daryl Cooper (51:20)

Vicky Ward is the journalist who was on this story, like in the early Vanity Fair story, at first with Vanity Fair, but then they shut down. This is a whole crazy story in and of itself. Actually. Actually, she had witnesses. So she was at 3W. She had three underage witnesses, all completely on the record, all unconnected to each other. Cor. But. But corroborating each other's stories and important details, all accusing Jeffrey Epstein of sexual assault. She had these girls on the record. She had their families on the record, all these things. And so she's got this story ready to run. It's gone through Legal review already at Vanity Fair, and all of a sudden, Graydon Carter, who was the editor of Vanity Fair at the time, he decides after, right before it goes to print, to take out all the stuff that. About sexual allegations. And the thing reads just basically like a puff piece to this international man of mystery, Jeffrey Epstein, takes all of it out. And she couldn't understand what's going on because it had already been through Legal Review, and she had. I mean, you're talking about on the record witnesses, you know, and what we know now, and this is corroborated by people who worked at Vanity Fair at the time, including an executive who was very close to Carter. He walked into his office one day in the morning, place was totally closed and locked up, and there was a bullet sitting on his desk. And then he had a country house, like, outside the city. Graydon Carter did. And he went there one time, or he came out of the. Came out of it one morning or something. I don't know exactly the detail on that, but. And there was a decapitated cat's head sitting on the front stoop of his. Of his house. And so these are clear threats. They were interpreted as threats. That executive who knew him well said he understood very well that these were threats, and he connected it to Epstein. And, you know, Epstein had come in and berated him personally, like, before the story went to print. He didn't know how. He didn't know how Epstein even knew about the story. And the details in it, but he showed up before anybody else was in the office. Graydon Carter shows up in his locked office. Jeffrey Epstein is in there standing, waiting for him in the morning when he gets there and just berates him. And so he intimidates him into, into cutting all that stuff out of the story. And it turns out later, you know, obviously that this was again, I think this was 2003. And so 2003, you know, you have this guy dead to rights. I mean, you know, three on the record witnesses, all these things. And you, you wonder like how many girls got abused after that that, you know, that could have been spared that experience. Because it wasn't until 2007 that he eventually got arrested. And even when something like that happened, you know, one of the questions I think people ask sometimes is like, okay, but he can get away with all this stuff. Why do they even arrest him? Why even. And I think it's because, you know, you get to a certain point, there were 30 something on the record witnesses, you know, at this point, and it becomes like, it can become a problem even for the people who are, who are running an asset like this. You know, it's just becoming.

Scott Horton (54:24)

Let me, let me ask you, because, you know, from what I saw, the thing where like what all was going on at his house in South Florida seemed to be just him and the girlfriend and their victims. But then sort of the rest of the story is, yeah, but he's got this extremely exclusive mansion in Manhattan and he's got a private island or. Ryan Dawson's email this morning said he had two islands down there in the Virgin Islands.

Daryl Cooper (54:50)

Interesting.

Scott Horton (54:50)

And then we know he had this giant ranch out there in New Mexico, out in the middle of nowhere, and all of these powerful people coming by and it is easy to just jump to conclusions. It's easy to see, like, makes such sense that the, the stand, the obvious MO would be to get these guys drunk and laid and then in the morning let them know that that 19 year old was actually 16 and we own your ass now. Right? Like it's the easiest thing. Yeah, actual, the, the appetites of some of these guys could be for actual little kids too. You know, I wouldn't put it past hardly any of these people. And of course it's a great way to blackmail and control people if you're working for intelligence, but there's a lot of assumptions baked into that too. And so I don't know.

Daryl Cooper (55:39)

And I have questions about it too, just in the sense of, you know, you can blackmail a Person. Maybe you can blackmail two people. You start pulling that, like, word gets around, you know, maybe not of, like, the specific material you're blackmailing with them with, but word gets around that this guy, like, you got to be careful around him and that people clam up and stop talking to you and stop associating with you, you know, because. Yeah, okay, this guy, you know, Bill Clinton's getting blackmailed. He doesn't want anybody to know, but he, you know, he has a couple, like. Like, really, really close friends that he says, like, man, this guy's got me over a barrel or whatever. Doesn't.

Scott Horton (56:16)

Well, it always seemed like to me his attitude was, like, fine, just keep them coming, you know? I mean, I care.

Daryl Cooper (56:22)

Yeah. Bill Clinton. I mean, and this is maybe a bias of mine, but, like, when people talk about Clinton and. And Trump also, like, it's usually not like that might. That's maybe the date rapist. You know, that might be the guy who, like, bites Juanita Broadrick's lip and, like, thinks that, you know, he's giving her a great time by raping her or something like that guy. But the sort of, you know, smooth, alpha male dude is usually not the kitty diddler. Like, that's just not usually the MO of person. It's usually not the varsity quarterback who's, like, into little kids, you know what I mean? It's him who might not take no for an answer at the kegger on.

Scott Horton (56:58)

Saturday, but Bill Gates seems like the kind of guy who would just be really excited to have sex with a pretty girl. You know what I mean? Like, it wouldn't have to be anything more special than.

Daryl Cooper (57:07)

Than that, probably.

Scott Horton (57:08)

I don't know. Who knows?

Daryl Cooper (57:10)

Dude, you know, all of this. This story is the. The. The podcast series I did on. This is, like, six, seven hours long, and there's so much detail, and I still left a lot of stuff out, so I want to throw in a couple things, because I know we only have, like, a certain amount of time here, and I will be going.

Scott Horton (57:24)

The most incriminating reason to believe that he really worked for the Israelis and. Or the agency. I mean, what the hell? We have the statement about the agency. We talked about that. But I'll tell you one thing.

Daryl Cooper (57:35)

Here's one example.

Scott Horton (57:36)

I saw Kim Iverson say to Alan Dershowitz, yeah, but the deal is he's blackmailing all you guys into supporting Israel. And Dershowitz goes, young lady, I've been supporting Israel since before you were born, and you ain't got a. Blackmail me. And yeah, that's silly.

Daryl Cooper (57:51)

I saw somebody, I saw somebody during the lead up to the Iran Israel conflict that was going on, talking about, you know, is Ben Shapiro must be getting paid by Israel. It's like, I don't think they have to pay him, you know. Yeah, but like the, you know about the CIA airline, Air America? They. Evergreen. Yep. They were involved in Iran Contra. They were actually the, they were. The renamed. They. They had renamed it from Vietnam when they were using it to run weapons and drugs and warlords from Laos and Cambodia and doing black ops over there. When everything starts to come out about what Air America was up to, I think they changed it to the name to Southern Air Transport at this point. The, the, the, the, the day that it, I don't think it hit the news, I think it was in a. It was getting congressional testimony, like sealed testimony that we have now. But it was sealed, sealed at the time. But the day that that testimony came out, Air America or Southern Air Transport, whichever they called it at the time, filed for bankruptcy. And then Jeffrey Epstein. Weird, right? Like, what does this guy have to do with anything? Jeffrey Epstein facilitates the purchase of that company that was a CIA run front company for like Black Ops, facilitates the sale of that to Les Wexner. And it was based out. And it was from that point on it was based out of Columbus, Ohio, which is where Les Wexner lived. And Jeffrey Epstein had the second largest house in the state of Ohio. Wexner had the first largest one. And so you have like little things like that. Like there's just these little details where it's like he has no business being in a place like this, you know, carrying out a deal like that.

Scott Horton (59:37)

What about, what do we know about clients? People say, give me the client list. I know that Ryan Dawson has said, well, there is no list. You got to do journalism and look into it. And you can go ahead and see because. But we do know that like he had some partner, his. Who supposedly committed suicide too in Europe. Right. And, and we had. I think there's been some civil lawsuits against banks that were involved in.

Daryl Cooper (60:02)

Yeah.

Scott Horton (60:02)

Facilitating this and that. And then so there's some discovery and some real information about somebody was raping these girls other than Epstein himself. And there is evidence of that, correct?

Daryl Cooper (60:15)

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, including the, the best evidence of all, which is that several of these girls who don't know each other at all have all independently named the same people that they were abused by.

Scott Horton (60:26)

Guys like, they didn't just name him.

Daryl Cooper (60:29)

Who, who all had oh, yeah, 100. Yeah, definitely, you know.

Scott Horton (60:34)

Well, did they point their fingers at them?

Daryl Cooper (60:36)

I don't know everybody, but Alan Dershowitz is one that, you know, that comes up very often because he was named by three separate girls who were not friends, they weren't sisters, they didn't know each other. And he was named by three separate girls. You know, that's a. One of the prominent ones. I like a lot of the people. This is one of the reasons that I am willing to believe that he was not running an operation like this up to the point that he was arrested is the people that he was hanging out with more in like the 2010s, you know, 2015 and so on. You don't hear much about them from the witnesses. This is mostly stuff, you know, that's ha. That is from years past because that's when these girls were that age. And so those are the witnesses. You have. You don't have a bunch of 14 year olds who say they were abused as 14 year olds in 2017. You know what I mean? Like, there's not a lot of those witnesses on the record. And so I don't know exactly what was going on after that. But, you know, one other thing to point out is there are a lot of these people who, like Stephen Hoffenberg, his former business partner is one, but there are several other people who knew him back in the day, either in financial capacity or just his friends who back before any of this stuff was public, before he ever went to jail, before any of this kind of, he was just a guy, you know, a rich guy who all said that Jeffrey Epstein had claimed to be tied into intelligence agencies back then. And these are separate people who don't, who don't know each other, who said this long before anybody even knew anything about this story. But then you just look at his, like, his connections, you know, like one of his besties, apparently, I mean, is Ehud Barak, who was the former head of Israeli military intelligence and prime Minister of Israel. And there's them together, right? Oh, I was forget pictures. I mean, Ehud Barack lived with them at various times. They started a business together that was a, it was like a tech business that was, that was started up by. They were like the main investors, but it was started up by a bunch of former unit, 8200 guys out of Israel, which is their NSA, basically their signals intelligence outfit. And you know, Barack was, you know, he's a, he's a guy who, you know, he, you don't want to like there. I Don't. I don't know of any evidence that this is part of. This is part of the issue with something like this is like people hear that this guy went on the plane or this guy stayed at his house or whatever, and kind of the natural thing to do is attach him to the most salacious part of the story. You know, he was there doing things to kids with Jeffrey Epstein or something. You got to be careful with that stuff. You know, like the, like the one good reason to not just dump the entire file Epstein file on the public and just let it all be out there, which I'm sympathetic to the people who want that to happen. I totally understand. But look, man, there were people there who just accepted an invitation to, like, go to a conference at Jeffrey Epstein's ranch, you know, and they went there. And now for the rest of their life, there's going to be an asterisk next to their name that says potential pedal file, you know, and you don't want to put that on people who don't deserve it. Like, I get that part. And so I don't have any information that says ehu. Barack was involved in any of that kind of thing. Or. And so I want to be clear about that. You go back to 2007, actually, this was in. I can't remember what newspaper it was in or magazine. I have to look it up. But it wasn't National Enquirer or something, and it wasn't a book by Whitney Webb. It was a mainstream news source that was talking about how before he went to prison, after he had been convicted, but before he was sentenced in 2007, he went to Israel for like, six weeks, and he had to be talked out of. By people over there. He had to be talked out of staying there and sort of like, you know, to come back and serve his time in the United States. Because Israel, I mean, you know, you can do damn near anything. If you're Jewish and you live in the diaspora, you go to Israel, they will not extradite you. You, and they're not going to charge you with, you know, their version of the crime there. People bring this up a lot in, in connection with pedophilia because it's the one that's the most shocking to people. There are American and European Jewish pedophiles who were in Israel who are walking around free because they fled to the country and they won't give them back. You know, which. That particular crime is obviously like, a little, little too far for me. But, you know, on. On the other Hand, like, I kind of appreciate the fact that Israel's like, if you're Jewish, you're one of us, and we're not letting somebody else throw you in. Fine. But, you know, he wanted to do that in 07 before he went to jail, and they sort of convinced him that, like, look, you're gonna go do a little time. This is not going to destroy you. We still got your back. And just go back. It'll be way easier and way less smoke if you just go do the time. And so he did. He came back and did it. And after he gets out, you know, from 08 until he's arrested in 2018, you know, that really is the period of his life that we don't have a whole lot. You know, you would think we'd have the most information about that. We know a lot about the people who went to his island and who hung out with him and all that kind of stuff. But in terms of, like, what he was actually up to, what he was doing with his money, what he was doing for. With Les Wexner, things like that, we don't have, like, we're not really exactly sure. The guy you were talking about in Europe, by the way, Jean Luc Brunel, who was another guy who ran a modeling agency, and he and Epstein were friends, and they would use the modeling agency basically to rope in and have sex with.

Scott Horton (65:58)

Hey, wasn't there a story of a girl who. Wasn't there a story of a girl who tried to escape the island by swimming away, and they found her and went out in the middle of the night in a boat and got her and brought her back? Something like that.

Daryl Cooper (66:09)

I have not. I've heard that, but I have not actually, like, looked into, See, you know, what it's based on. So I'm not actually sure. I wouldn't want to. Wouldn't want to assert.

Scott Horton (66:18)

Years since I read that, it seemed like a pretty detailed story about it and everything.

Daryl Cooper (66:23)

Well, you know, one thing that's interesting. You remember the D.C. madam. She, you know, she was like the. The madam to. To the. All the big shots in dc. The. She got thrown in jail after years of serving, you know, DC's elite, and she committed suicide in jail. And then Jean Luc Brunel, who was Epstein's accomplice, abusing, taking advantage of a bunch of women through this modeling agency for years and years and years, eventually gets arrested and he commits suicide in jail. And then Epstein gets arrested and he commits suicide in jail. It's all very interesting, you know, that These things happen, especially when you take all the coincidences that had to take place for the suicide story to be even partly believable. You know, when I go on, I'm gonna go on to Tucker Carlson's show next week, next Friday, it's actually going to be a live show the first time.

Scott Horton (67:13)

You better not kill yourself before that. I'm gonna be really upset at you.

Daryl Cooper (67:18)

Yeah, I should probably, like, instead of flying or even driving out there, I should probably just walk just to make sure there's no, you know, malfunctions of any kind. But we're gonna have plenty of time coming, man. We're gonna have plenty of time in that episode to really break it down from the beginning kind of step by step by step and go through the whole thing. Because when you get through to it, the, the. The mountain of circumstantial evidence, and I would say, like, maybe it's short of proof, but when you have Alex Acosta saying on the record to the people who were vetting him for a cabinet position, you know, that he was told by his bosses, and everybody knows who his bosses were at the time, you know, is Alberto Gonzalez, I think was the attorney general, and was it Michael Mukasey maybe was the deputy. So everybody knows who. Who these guys were. When he says, my bosses told me he belonged to intelligence and to back off of him for that reason. Reason, you know, you connect that to, like, his visit in Israel when they're telling him, go back and serve your time, it's going to be fine. And then he gets back and goes to serve his time, and turns out he's being prosecuted, got by a guy who was told to leave him alone by his bosses. And so a Costa saying that is not proof in and of itself. You know, you're not going to throw somebody into jail and. And throw away the key based on just that. But the very least, right, they always say with us media or just with. With mass media in general, if it bleeds, it leads, you know, and that doesn't just mean violence. It means sex. It means anything that is just sensational and salacious. Like, they're gonna run with it, man, because it is a cutthroat competition for ratings out there. Everybody's like pulling eyeballs however they can possibly do it. And every single bit of information that drops in the Epstein story ever since it broke in 2018, every single one goes viral. It's the top rated show that night. Everybody wants the information. Everybody wants to hear it. And so you would think that every Single newspaper, every single cable news outfit would have, like, an entire team of reporters dedicated to this story. That you'd have a guy like Alex Acosta, you know, the government official who said on the record that he was connected to intelligence, to the point that he was told to ignore the 30 something underage victims accusing Jeffrey Epstein of sexual assault. And he. And he did it. He obeyed them. That you would have, like, reporters camped out on that guy's lawn, and every time he leaves his house, sticking a microphone in his face and saying, what exactly did you mean by that? You need to elaborate for them to come out and say the case is closed. Which is now what they've told us, the case is closed. When they've never given us any kind of closure on that one fact. What did Alex Acosta mean? Was he lying? If he was lying, let's have some accountability for that. If not, what exactly is going on here? Because I don't think anybody thinks he was lying. Why would he make something that's a crazy thing to make up? You know, I mean, these boxes are still alive.

Scott Horton (70:18)

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. But you have things like where they're on the record saying, okay, the mansion in New York was wired for video and sound. And then they show all these, what, tubs full of digital media.

Daryl Cooper (70:32)

Yeah.

Scott Horton (70:33)

And then they go, nah, that was all just stuff that he downloaded that didn't have anything to do with his house being wired for video and sound, where he's inviting all the most powerful people in the world and in the country over all the time.

Daryl Cooper (70:47)

Yeah. It's ridiculous.

Scott Horton (70:49)

Coming in and out and whatever Ukrainian models or whatever you call them, you know.

Daryl Cooper (70:55)

Yeah, yeah. And. And when you see things like that, that painting of Clinton and Monica Lewinsky's dress that it was the first thing you saw when you walked in to his place. You know, that Clinton had visited many, many times. When you see like that kind of.

Scott Horton (71:11)

That he posed for that.

Daryl Cooper (71:14)

I bet.

Scott Horton (71:15)

That'S a real painting of a real scene. Just like that kid in the slaughterhouse.

Daryl Cooper (71:19)

You know what? Let's take just a few more minutes. I know we're a little bit over time, but there's a. A part of this that we really have to cover, too, which is. All right, so his. His. His buddy Les Wexner, 100%, like, deep connections to Israeli intelligence. He's personally and in his capacity as a member of what's known kind of publicly at least, as the MEGA group, which is a group of Jewish and Canadian Billionaires who've come together to. Who came together to do what they could to use their influence and money to drive American foreign policy in a direction that was essentially like a Lakhudnik foreign policy. But they would also do things like commission researchers to write papers for Israeli intelligence to do analysis on various things. Basically, they would do all kinds of things. And so. And you're talking about incredibly wealthy people like Les. Les Wexner was one of them. But one of. One of Epstein's previous clients when he was at Bear Stearns was an. Another member of the mega group is Charles Bronfman, who. He and his brother Edgar were the heirs to the Seagram's liquor for Fortune. And if the name sounds, like, a little bit familiar outside of that context, it's because Edgar's daughter, I think two of his daughters, actually, they were like the main ringleaders in that Nexium sex cult with Keith Rainier that came out, you know, maybe. I don't know, what was it, 10 years ago now, five years ago? And so it was just another one of those things where you're like, I don't have any evidence at all that, like, Epstein and the, you know, Nexium sex cult have anything to do with each other. But it is just weird, again, that you have, like, one degree of separation between these people and various different weird, you know, either sex rings, sex cult things. And, you know, like, the question that always comes back to me when I look at these things, right? And it really hit me when. When Biden named his Secretary of State, you know, his initial Secretary of State, Blinken, because I had read about a little bit about. Because I've been on the Epstein story kind of not as deeply as somebody like Ryan, you know, or anything, but aware of it and keeping tabs on it for a long time. And so when Blinken was appointed, I knew that Blinken's stepfather was Robert Maxwell's main lawyer and primary confidant. And the last person that spoke to him before he, quote, unquote, accidentally died by falling off of his yacht near the Canary Islands. And so you have, like, Blinken's stepfather, Robert Maxwell. Can we just. Is it too much to ask to have, like, just, you know, there's certain litmus tests that get a little bit, you know, you don't want a purity spiral too much. Like, when it comes to government officials, you can't expect and demand too much of these people. Obviously, they're not capable of it. But is it possible that we can just have one high level government official who's not like a degree or two separated from the worst sex, you know, pedophile billionaire guy in the history of the country. Can we just have like a couple people up there who aren't attached to him besides Thomas Massie? Because apparently the answer is no, you cannot, you cannot have that.

Scott Horton (74:32)

Yeah, it's, it's pretty ugly. And now, so obviously the Wexner thing and the Maxwell thing is really important, but do we see, do you have much kind of causal connection between his association with people and there than more avowedly pro Zionist behavior after that? Anything like that?

Daryl Cooper (74:56)

No, I don't. And it's one of the reasons that.

Scott Horton (74:59)

I'm not here to debunk this stuff. I'm kind of still a believer in it, but I'm, I'm, I'm looking for actual proof is all. I mean, devil's advocate trying to get you to tell us the best of what you know or the worst.

Daryl Cooper (75:12)

You know, they're, they're, they're like, it's not as if the Israelis are above that kind of behavior. Like, we know that from the 1990s when Netanyahu pulled Clinton aside and let him know that they had recordings of Monica Lewinsky's phones that they had tapped. And so, you know, these are, you know, that's fine. That's, that's, that, that's the kind of thing that I think everybody expects intelligence agencies to do. You know, you tap foreign leader's mistress's phone and you can hold that over his head when, usually when you're drawing them in to like actual crimes against children and things, you know, that's something that really requires, like, you really have to have all your ducks in a row before you, you, you assert those things with like, certainty. And so, you know, you're asking the right question, which is if he was doing this as a, as a large scale blackmail operation, what was the, what was he blackmailing people for? You know, and I don't know. I mean, I can't think of any, I can't think of any examples of somebody. Well, first of all, a lot of them were people who, who cares if Bill Gates is like super pro Zionist? Like, nobody cares. Like he, you know, he's, Microsoft is.

Scott Horton (76:22)

Going to do business in Israel no matter what.

Daryl Cooper (76:25)

Yeah, a lot of it. And so one of the interesting things though is a guy who, a guy named Ari Bin Minashe, who, he's former employee of Israeli military intelligence, wrote a book, you know, the Israeli government, of course, at first they said we don't know who this guy is. He never worked for us. And then later on now they've kind of come around to admitting, yeah, he. He worked for military intelligence, but, you know, he was a nobody. He doesn't know anything. He's full of it. But the guy who ran Israeli military intelligence at the time, and a guy who was a big shot going all the way back to the late 1950s in the Israeli intelligence and military establishment, he was his boss at the time. And he said that if Ari says that this is what happened, that's probably what happened. He's on record saying that and so can't prove it. But there's good reason to believe that this guy at least was in the role that he. That he says he was in. And, and he says, you know, that, like, one of the things that. That, that happened when in Israel. I can't even. Gosh darn, I got to go over my notes again because I can't remember the. The head of military intelligence name at the time that, that Menashe was working for. It's killing me because it's like a. It's a major name in, like, Israeli military history, intelligence history. But he kind of had this innovation where he really shifted their focus to. To technological espionage in other countries. And, you know, he ran the Jonathan Pollard ring, for example, the. And that's when that. This is the period when Menashe says Epstein was kind of connected with him and with the people he was working for. And so when you look at the people, like Bill Gates, like his interest in the Santa Fe Institute and all the other scientists types that he would always kind of surround himself with, that starts to fit in a little bit, you know, like the. The technological espionage, scientific espionage side of things. That may be, you know, that may be the case, but you're getting into, like, deep speculation here because, again, like, even. Even the idea that he was running a blackmail ring like that is like, we have evidence short of proof even on that. It's something that you have to kind of put two and two together and then draw conclusions about. But we don't have an example of, like, all right, this person, you know, was blackmailed by him, and this was the quid pro quo. We don't have any of that for any time ever. And so you really just. It's really all built on speculation. And, you know, the technological angle of it probably makes more sense than. Because, you know, one of the things, too, is, like, everybody's heard of Jeffrey Epstein, so you think, like, there's this guy. There's this one guy who runs this blackmail operation and does this thing and take him off the board and like, that's it. Like, they. If there's one, there's probably two, and if there's two, there's 10, you know, doing various things like this. And they're not all trying to blackmail presidents to get them to lean in a Zionist direction. Some of them are doing much, probably smaller scale stuff, you know, trying to compromise, again, scientists, technologists and stuff to make sure that certain things get funneled, you know, in the direction they're supposed to get funneled. And so it may just be something like that where it's not quite this. This all encompassing, like, gigantic scope thing that people really want it to be. Because that's like, people love conspiracies, you know, as you. They eventually just like. Like a. Like a. Like a black hole, just pull everything in until the whole universe is explained by, like, this little theory, you know, that's not always the case. Sometimes it's just one little facet of, like, a much, much larger story. And I think when you look at somebody like Epstein, I think that that's probably most likely the case. You know, I think that he was probably a guy who had a role as a deal maker and a money launderer, possibly a blackmailer for US And Israeli intelligence, who then he just got too. He got too crazy, man. He got too loose and he became a liability, and, you know, he got picked up. I mean, and again, like, it's. When you look at things like the fact that Bill Barr is the guy who arrested him, his father just happens to be the guy who gave Epstein his first job he was totally unqualified for, who also writes novels about aliens raising children as sex slaves. Like, you put all that together and you're like, oh, and both of those guys work for the CIA or oss, before it was called that you see all that kind of stuff. And then he dies in custody, and you're like. And you have like, everybody from Alan Dershowitz who's on his legal team to his other lawyers to people who knew him, including Epstein's brother, by the way, Epstein's brother is absolutely adamant, as were his lawyers, that there's no way he killed himself. You know, and they make the point that, like, look a. He had been through this before. He got past this once, you know, like, they had everything on him the first time, and he got 13 months light, you know, easy sentence in Florida, and that he. He still had a Ton of cards to play. You know, this was not like he, you know, he was like, the next day he was going to be transferred out to Sing Sing and all the, you know, boss crackers were going to be waiting for this Jewish pedophile to show up so they could run a train on him the next day. That's not what was happening. Like, he had. He had so many cards to play, years of appeals to play out, all these kind of things, and he just kills himself, like, right away under the most suspicious circumstances imaginable, to the point that if you put it in a. In a. In a farcical movie, people would say that it was just too ridiculous to believe and, you know, didn't belong. And so. So it's just one of those things. Again, it's all circumstantial for the most part, but when you put it all together.

Scott Horton (82:02)

Well, look, in the last few minutes here, let's talk about what the administration had said, including Patel and Bongino and Bondi in the run up to their big announcement yesterday that actually, it turns out there's no there there after all.

Daryl Cooper (82:17)

Yeah, yeah. So Bondi's getting hit hard because she said, not in an offhand comment, but on the White House lawn. You know, it's a. That's a. That's a format for a news conference that, you know, it's like the. Just short of the President showing up on camera, staring down the. The barrel of the camera in the Oval Office. You know, this is kind of an official statement. And she said, when asked about the Epstein client list, she said, it's on my desk right now. And she says now that what she was saying was the Epstein file is on my desk for review, and she hadn't reviewed it yet, but now she's reviewed it and there's no client listing there, which is totally believable. I mean, like, why would there be a client list? You know what I mean? Like, that's not. That that's asking for things to be a little bit too patent on the notes.

Scott Horton (83:02)

I mean, you could see that is sort of, you know, a figure of speech invented out here in the world. Not from them, but you could see, like, the potential that the FBI would have compiled one from, like, the best we know. It seems like these are the people who, you know, he was servicing or whatever.

Daryl Cooper (83:18)

You know, my, My kind of special theory on this. I'll get back to the administration in one second. But this is one thing that should be mentioned as well. There's an incident I covered in The Epstein series, I went very deep into detail about it, actually read a whole book about it. It's a very obscure kind of incident that most people don't remember now, but in the 1970s in Northern Ireland, there was in people who, over there in that, in that region, they, they know all about this. But the Kinkura boys homeschool scandal and it involved this MI5 agent who was like this super gung ho kind of pro British army. Just you know, the guy who was completely with the program go getter like type of dude who named Colin Wallace was, was the guy's name. Who was he? He was assigned to Northern Ireland and he found out that there was a bunch of abuse going on at this boy's home that was run by a guy who had connections to, to MI MI6. He was an Ulsterman with connections to MI6. And he starts going to his bosses and saying, you know, I've got. This is what's going on in this place. And I'm seeing people whose names we all know like go into this place and I think there's something. And he got shut down, eventually charged with a crime. He got charged with manslaughter for killing his friend. But then eventually it was overturned, but he did some time in jail. Was total frame job job. The name of the book is actually who Framed Colin Wallace? And he goes into undeniable detail that not only was the guy framed, but he was framed because he was pushing this issue really hard with his bosses and he kept getting told to leave it alone. And what was going on there was not, you know, where you had a guy who, the guy running the home was bringing in politicians and, and other important people and compromising them kind of personally. What you had was a pedophile ring group of perverts who were coming into this place being led by this one dude. And MI5 knew about it and they were monitoring it and they were collecting information on everything that was going on there. And for them this is like a gold mine. I mean, holy cow, can you imagine? And so it's not like they set it up. It's not like they were running the guy who was running the boys home. It's just they found out about this and they are getting dirt on all of these important people which at the time the big issue was whether they were going to change strategy on Northern, on, on Northern Ireland. That was like the big. Because this is back when the troubles were going on and stuff and there was a push like from the Labour Party to, to, to change tack and kind of soften the British approach and redirect the resources in other places. And MI5 and the military establishment was not having that. And so they were blackmailing British politicians, using. And Irish politicians as well who were taking advantage of boys in this, in this boy's home. And so it may be something like that, you know, it may be something where Jeffrey Epstein was just a pervert and he had a way of like, you know, he like use a star who like to hang out with other like super famous and rich people. And he was really good at kind of sussing out which of these guys might be interested in like the things I'm interested in. And then intelligence agencies are just kind of watching and taking notes as all this is going on. It could be as simple as that, that, you know, which makes Jeffrey Epstein, like a much less interesting kind of part of the, part of the puzzle just makes him sort of, you know, not a bit player, obviously still a central player, but it may be something like that, you know.

Scott Horton (86:39)

All right, now we are, we are running real short on time here. So now what about what Patel and Bongino had said in the past about what we know about this guy that we're going to tell you all about it because I know there has been quite a discrepancy between some of their very definitive. The quote of Bondi, I agree, really could be interpreted the way that she says now. But they had said more explicit things in the past about what they know about this and what we're going to find out when we find out and all that. Right?

Daryl Cooper (87:07)

Yeah. And then so the really interesting question here ties back to what I asked earlier about like, you know, all his millions and millions of dollars in fame and public goodwill didn't help Bill Cosby, you know, it's not helping Puff Daddy, you know, it didn't help Dominique Strauss Kahn when he, when he got, you know, accused of rape by that maid in the hotel. Although that was. There's a lot of fishy stuff about that. But the point is his fame and wealth didn't help him. And yet this Epstein guy gets a free pass kind of everywhere he goes. And you, you know, you ask yourself, okay, so what is it? What possible thing? Because I don't think Bongino is a liar. I don't think he's like a guy who's just, you know, he kind of conned his way, his audience into like building fame so he could get into the FBI and be a part of the, part of the system that's doing? I don't think it's like that. I think it's probably like a lot of these people who. They get into that position and then people drop something on their desk and they say, no, this is why you're going to keep your mouth shut. And it's convincing to him. And so you have to ask, what possible thing could it be that would cause Dan Bongino to just betray his audience in such a direct way? Cash Patel, same thing. To do this in such a direct way. And I mean, it's. There's only a few things, you know, and one of them, you go to their own statements. You know, Cash Patel, when he came in to run the FBI, said, we will prioritize Israel. When Dan Bongino was asked what is, like, one thing you consider, like, your. Your real, like, mission, like the thing. It's very. They said, it's very personal to you. And he said, that's easy. Israel. Defend Israel. And you hear what Trump says and his approach and all these things. And from. Look, if you're a person who, even if you're not a Ted Cruz, you know, dispensationalist, like, you know, crazy person who thinks you have to nuke Iran to, like, bring about the apocalypse or something, you know, you can, you can understand the mentality, right? It's the same mentality that, you know, the, all of the law enforcement, intelligence agencies at the federal level, you know, every once in a while things will get declassified and you're like, how in the hell was this classified? You know, the one that comes to mind is Andy McCabe, when he was the deputy director of the FBI classified, the fact that he had spent $70,000 on a conference room table for the FBI headquarters. And when you see something like that, you just kind of realize, like, this isn't national security. It's not anything like that. They just don't want that information going out in the public because it looks terrible. You know, and they're thinking. And again, from. From their perspective, I think this actually makes sense, is they look at it as like, it is a national security imperative that the American people trust the FBI so that the FBI can go do its job stopping terrorists and doing all these different things. If the American people lose faith in federal law enforcement, that'll be a. That's a national security problem. Therefore, when the FBI does something that should cost them the American people's trust, we got to cover that up in the name of national security, in the name of protecting people. And, you know, something like this I mean, you look at it and they. They ask themselves, like, look, this is horrible. Maybe behind the scenes, we can discipline the Israelis in some way or whatever, but we cannot just dump on the American public that the Israelis were running. Jeffrey Epstein, like, for all these years in the United. United States.

Scott Horton (90:31)

Like, the problem is, man, is, you know, just to sum up here, I mean, the reason we're talking about this is. The reason everybody's talking about this is because they are denying it, where they'd be better off just telling the worst of the ugly truth now and rip the band aid off because of the. It's just the Barbra Streisand effect to.

Daryl Cooper (90:52)

The whole agent who's dead now, you know? Yeah, pin it on some rogue agent who's dead now. Or, you know, something like that. You would think, because. Because the Streisand effect is real. And I'll tell you, Ariel Sharon, he's dead. There you go. You know, but for people like me and you who have the attitude toward government in general, and the US Government specifically, I mean, this is a. This is the biggest gift we could get. Like, the way they're responding to all this and handling it is a beautiful gift. Because you know what? We can never let this story die. Even if we get no more information, no more anything, we can never let this story die. Because 50 years from now, when young people are coming up and starting to get political and starting to look at the US Government, this is going to be an entry point for them to understand the nature of the institution that they're interacting with. And it will always be that. And that is a good thing, ultimately, you know. And so that. That's kind of the way I look at it. It's just. It's a way that, you know, people will look at it, and when you get into it, you realize that if they will do this, then they will do anything. There's nothing that is. That is beyond these people.

Scott Horton (91:59)

Well, it's a simple enough story, too, right? It's not a big complicated thing about how we got into the dirty war in Syria or whatever. It's just like, hey, look, this guy was allowed to get away with this by Attorney General Janet Reno and Attorney General John Ashcroft and Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez and Attorney General Mike Mukasey and Attorney General. You can go down the list this whole time.

Daryl Cooper (92:20)

Time.

Scott Horton (92:21)

All of these people let this happen. You know, thank God Janet Reno didn't save those kids. We know what that looks like. But the rest of them, though, had a job to do anyway. We should go. We're out of time. It's been an hour and a half, but this has been great. And how do you like that for Provoked, everybody, huh? Provoked. I'm Scott Horton, he's Daryl Cooper. Check me out@scott horton.org and my substack is scotthortonshow.com if you want to start listening to the audiobook of Provoked, the book, which I got the first three major parts there for you. There's already nine hours worth, which is only like the first third of the book. So keep you busy and then, you know, buy my books and listen to my show and stuff like that. And then you're at where Martyr Maid.

Daryl Cooper (93:08)

Martyr Maid is the name of the podcast. You can look that up. It's all long form history. I do have a six or seven hour series on the Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein story that goes very deep that covers other cases of kind of, you know, well, substantiated elite and government pedophilia operations and rings that are going on. It's a dark story, but a necessary one. If you want to hear the shorter version of it, check me out on Tucker Carlson's show next Friday. I guess that would be what, the 18th? The 18th. That evening we will be going live, Tucker's first ever live show. And we're going to go through all this stuff in deep detail and, and cover it that way. So, yeah, you can, if you want to, if you want to come to, if you want to support the Martyr Maid podcast or anything, you can go to subscribe.myrmade.com that's the sub stack. But I would say hold your fire on that and wait till we get something set up to, to support us here on Provoked. So, yeah, this was fun. I'm always a little bit scatterbrained when I, when I have, you know, seven hours of information to fit into 90 minutes. You know, it kind of goes, yeah, well, you're a hell of a lot better at it than I am. But, but yeah, this is, this is a story we're not going to let die. We're going to keep this thing going because after we are all dead and gone, just like the JFK assassination, this is going to be a way for people to understand the nature of the state and the institutions that, that, you know, are really our enemies. Because, I mean, look, I don't want to, I'm not, to be clear, I am not calling for violence or anything like that. Just write that off. I'm not talking, I'm not calling for anything. Go read the Declaration of Independence and the list of grievances they brought against the English king that justified a full rebellion, a war to break free of the English crown. And then compare that list of grievances to our, our intelligence agencies working with an established long time mass pedophile to accomplish their goals and tell me, like, which, which of those kind of stacks up, you know?

Scott Horton (95:16)

Yeah. At the very least, we could stop believing in them, you know, that's all I'm asking, is stop giving them the benefit of legitimacy and doubt where they do not deserve it. All right? So, yeah. Oh, and by the way, check out my interview on Tucker last week if you missed it.

Daryl Cooper (95:34)

Definitely check it out. If you guys are my listeners and you're not as familiar with Scott's work, go listen to his interview that he recently did with Tucker. It is the best education you're going to get on U.S. relations in the Middle east in the modern era, like since the, since the 70s that you're going to find it's three hours long and it's got 20 hours of information in it. And Scott is a lot better at keeping things orderly and understandable than I am, so. So definitely go check that out.

Scott Horton (95:59)

Yeah. Oh, and by the way, this is important news. We'll end with this, which is that this show is number eight in the brand new podcasts on Apple Podcasts, and that was within just a couple of days. It took us a little while to get the Apple thing approved. So then just a couple of days, we're in the top 10. We're beating the Undertaker from the WWE and we're right behind Reese Witherspoon's Stay at Home Mom Book Club dude, so that's pretty good.

Daryl Cooper (96:22)

And rookie numbers. Rookie numbers. That's right, baby.

Scott Horton (96:26)

And. And on the list of history podcasts, we're ahead of Dan Carlin. So fist bump to you, my man. And we'll see you next week.

Daryl Cooper (96:34)

Yeah, this is fun. It.