Provoked with Darryl Cooper & Scott Horton

Episode 40: Understanding the Enemy
Date: March 28, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of Provoked delves into the psychology of conflict, dehumanization, and how easily societies slide into cycles of violence—with a particular focus on how history is written by the victors and how the narrative impacts present-day policies, especially with regard to the ongoing war in Iran. Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton reflect on WWII, the enduring mythologizing of "the enemy," and draw parallels to contemporary U.S. military interventions. The discussion also covers the personal and systemic moral compromises that people in power, from generals to politicians, face during wartime.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dehumanization of the Enemy in War

• Darryl Cooper’s podcast series "The Germans": Cooper explains his aim to humanize "the enemy" by telling the story of WWII from the German perspective—not to justify, but to understand how ordinary people became actors in extraordinary violence.
• Shaping of Historical Narratives:
  • Cooper: "The victors in every conflict obviously are able to shape the narrative afterwards...They tend not to treat the other side as really like fully human." [04:21]
  • References to the Iliad, noting the Greeks humanized their Trojan enemies, unlike much of modern historical storytelling.
• Contemporary echo: The U.S. still reflexively casts adversaries in Hitlerian terms to justify present wars.
• Noteworthy Quote:

  "If you're going to completely just firebomb entire cities...You better not have been fighting human beings. You better have been fighting the devil himself."
  —Darryl Cooper [09:44]

2. The Function of Myth and Moral Binary in Modern Politics

• WWII as a Touchstone:
  • Both hosts critique how American foreign policy invokes WWII (and Hitler) to frame every conflict as existential and justify extreme measures.
  • Horton: "Everything is Munich and everyone is Hitler and that’s why we always have to fight..."
• Dehumanization as a Psychological Necessity:
  • Cooper: "If you’re going to do something like that [e.g., bomb Dresden], boy, you better be fighting Satan himself and his legions…" [09:44]
  • Modern wars (e.g., Iran) use the same tactic to preclude introspection regarding U.S. actions.

3. Understanding “Normal” People’s Descent into Atrocity

• Cooper: "It’s to say that they were at one point just like you and me. And so what happened? That’s really the interesting question…" [19:01]
• He draws analogies to Churchill’s antisemitic writings post-WWI, showing how similar mindsets, under pressure, can lead to radically different outcomes.
• Horton highlights how history is perceived as inevitable by later generations, when in fact it could have taken very different courses.

4. Contemporary War with Iran—Military and Political Analysis

• Escalation and U.S. Deployment:
  • Cooper analyzes the current U.S. military buildup around Iran, expressing skepticism about possible strategies and the apparent lack of political and military planning.
  • Cooper: "You look at it and you say, well, what is it we would expect a force of... 20,000 guys, right? This...sounds like a lot...When you look at the geography of Iran...you're pretty limited..." [25:47]
• Criticism of Decision Making:
  • Both hosts agree the U.S. is improvising and escalation could easily lead to disaster.
  • Horton: "I don’t like to be alarmist...And they did it anyway." [33:29]
  • Both repeatedly draw parallels to historic military fiascos (Gallipoli, Dien Bien Phu).

5. The Bureaucracy of War – Responsibility and Dilemmas

• Chain of Command Dilemmas:
  • Horton: "They're just gonna say yes, sir...We can do anything, sir. God dang it. You point and we'll shoot. And that's the job." [42:01]
  • Both discuss how responsibility is diffused throughout the system—political leaders give orders, generals rationalize staying to "do less harm," and lower ranks follow orders.
• Personal Morality vs. Systemic Inertia:
  • Cooper: "It really is a dilemma...If they're going to go anyway, I don't trust anyone more than I trust myself to oversee this thing..." [42:59]
  • Discussion about public figures like Tulsi Gabbard and Joe Kent facing the choice of quitting or trying to influence from within.

6. The Cost of Perpetual War and Collective Moral Decline

• Consequences for the Troops:
  • Cooper: "The people that are sending them off to do these things, they're not fit to tie their boots for them..." [64:59]
  • Emphasis on good people sent to do dishonorable things based on systemic failure.
• Loss of Collective Conscience:
  • Cooper: "In the more modern era...they felt the need at least to cover this stuff up, and they really just don’t anymore." [63:00]
• National Identity and Moral Erosion:
  • Horton: "You can only kill people so much before, like, yeah, you’re guilty of murder." [64:50]
• Current Israeli-Palestinian conflict:
  • Cooper addresses evidence of Israeli war crimes and the normalization of open brutality, paralleling the rise of group psychosis with 1930s Germany.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Dehumanization Imperative:

  “You better not have been fighting human beings. You better have been fighting the devil himself.”
  — Daryl Cooper [09:44]

• On War Bureaucracy:

  "They're just gonna say yes, sir...this is a man who has the authority to launch a hydrogen bomb at any city on the planet that he feels like, and no one can stop him."
  — Scott Horton [42:01]

• On Historical Rationalization:

  "To accomplish the worst evil, you don't have to convince men to do evil. You convince them that they're doing good. And then...the best men I have ever met did the worst things I have ever seen."
  — (Quote cited by Scott Horton from a veteran) [66:55]

• Comparison & Relevance:

  “You can have individual people who in individual contexts are perfectly good human beings, but groups of people can get into sort of a group psychosis…”
  — Daryl Cooper [58:47]

• Modern Political Reality:

  "Everything is Munich and everyone is Hitler and that's why we always have to fight."
  — Scott Horton [14:59]

Important Timestamps

• [04:21] – Darryl explains the goals and methods of "The Germans" podcast series
• [09:44] – Discussion of how mythologizing the enemy enables atrocities
• [25:47] – Cooper’s analysis of U.S. military strategy regarding Iran
• [42:01] – The problem of responsibility and following orders in the chain of command
• [53:04] – Poll numbers, the Israel lobby, and war policymaking detachment from public opinion
• [58:47] – Evidence of war crimes and the dangers of group moral collapse
• [64:50] – Reflections on how actions define individual and national identity

Additional Highlights

• Podcast Plugs
  • Darryl Cooper’s MartyrMade podcast available on Substack and all major platforms: subscribe.martyrmade.com [22:20]
  • Scott Horton’s Substack: scotthortonshow.com [22:58]
• Personal anecdotes:
  • Both hosts share stories of elite airline status and previous podcast series (e.g., Cooper’s episode on the My Lai massacre) [03:00, 18:33]
• Call to Action:
  • Horton encourages listeners to call Congress to oppose ground war escalation in Iran [48:45]
• Final Reflection:
  • The conversation ends with sober thoughts on the personal and collective consequences of moral compromise in wartime and the need for conscientious public engagement.

This episode provides a sobering examination of the psychological and historical mechanisms that allow atrocities and endless cycles of violence—and a call to resist the normalization of these processes in contemporary conflicts.