Daryl Cooper (3:56)

See whoever it hurts.

Scott Horton (3:58)

Because they're connected to Jeffrey Epstein and we find out the truth of their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, I think we are all just fine with whatever consequences those people have to suffer, whoever they may be. Yeah, I mean, everyone, when I pronounce.

Daryl Cooper (4:13)

That, yeah, I, you know, thank goodness they think they can connect it to Trump and the Republicans and we never hear anything about it. So I'll take it, you know, willing to sacrifice every single one of the members of the GOP to get the truth on this. So.

Scott Horton (4:32)

All right, well, so speaking of Israeli spies and the things that they do well, or the Israeli state, the war in the. Not the war. What do you call it? The genocide?

Daryl Cooper (4:48)

When I bring it up or mention it in a statement, I just say the assault on Gaza, something like that. You can't call it a war. You know, it's insulting to call it a war. One of the things that really pissed me off and kind of got me emotional about this whole situation at the very beginning was all of these people coming out and trying to compare what the Israelis are doing in Gaza to what US forces did in, you know, Iraq or Afghanistan or something. And like, I'm the last person in the world, or maybe second to last next to you, to defend either of those wars, they're. The conduct of our forces is not comparable to the idf and it's a freaking insult to our guys to like even, to even intimate that. It's ridiculous. I mean, what's going on there? You know, I mean, look, there's no heavy combat going on. You know, there's not daily rockets being fired from Gaza into southern Israel and they're just sort of trying to make it stop. And you know, there's. There's a lot of just hardcore stressful heavy combat situations. And you know, sometimes civilians get killed or whatever. Just that has not been going on for months and months and months now. I mean, and they're still just killing dozens of non combatants a day at a time when they're starving these people to death. Now, I think last I saw, 111 people died from starvation related causes. And you know. Yeah, it's just. This is not a normal war. It's not the kind of war that, you know, a lot of people. I was actually talking to somebody, a buddy of mine yesterday who, you know, tried to make the point that. Well, no, it actually is a normal war. You know, the, the what the US Was forces, the, the way they were behaving their level of discipline in Iraq or Afghanistan that you're talking about, that was not normal. This is just normal war. And I'm like, well, whatever, man. Like, you know what? Like, we should not, we shouldn't be associating ourselves with this anymore. And you know, it's.

Scott Horton (6:47)

That's a funny way to rationalize it, right? Like, look, man, the rules of warfare, the Geneva Conventions and an attempt.

Daryl Cooper (6:56)

Ever heard of Genghis Khan?

Scott Horton (6:58)

Yeah, yeah, seriously, the attempt of the, of, of Western powers to put some kind of limitations on. Wait, nah, come on, that's just naive.

Daryl Cooper (7:11)

Yeah, I mean, you know, the, the rate at which we are just burning through the credibility of every international institution that we built up in the post war era to try to, to try to serve as intermediaries so that countries could try to resolve their differences at a level.

Scott Horton (7:28)

Now you're acting like. Now you're acting like a pro Israel propagandist, trying to convince me that the silver lining is worth it. But no. Yeah, look it. The thing is, and I guess I'm just rationalizing, man, I. I keep thinking that people must somehow talk themselves out of the knowledge of what's really happening here. Where, hey, look, you can't just deliberately inflict a famine on someone or that makes you the bad guy. And what in the world, like if there, there's gotta be. If everybody knows, then there's gotta be a consensus to stop it. And if there's gotta be a consensus to stop it, it must be that everybody doesn't know or that they're just so inculcated with propaganda, they just can't get over the fact that the Israelis gotta be the good guys or else why would we be on their side? And so it's just baked in that that's just how it's gotta be. And so they just can't hear it, that. No, they fight like barbarians. This is there. This is an Eastern oriental culture that does not share our values at all. Just because Netanyahu has white skin and speaks New York English kinda, you know, that's not good enough. That's just pr. That's Hezbollah. But the reality is, I mean, most of these people are Russians, right? Like, they fight like Russians. What do they care about Palestinians, dude?

Daryl Cooper (8:50)

Nothing.

Scott Horton (8:51)

It's like. Am I repeating myself from last week? It's like when the Vietnamese fight the Hmong tribesmen, you just kill them all. You know, this is tribe versus tribe. The women and children go, too. Nobody cares about some Swiss office where somebody signed some parchment, you know?

Daryl Cooper (9:06)

Yeah. And it's crazy because, you know, you get these people half the time. You know, I, I, maybe I'm just naive. Like, I want to believe they're bots and, you know, being run out of Tel Aviv or something. But I think, you know, I see a hell of a lot of them that are definitely not. They're real people, and they're not people who live in Tel Aviv who lost three cousins on October 7th or something. It's just some American Christian MAGA guy who lives in Omaha or something, you know. But they will all tell you, like, the official line from that side is that, like, every humanitarian organization, every journalist, every doctor, every priest, the un, the International Criminal Court, countries like Ireland, like, just, they're, they're all lying. And they're lying because they got something against Jews. And we're supposed to treat that like it's a serious statement, you know, like it's not completely ridiculous. And it should almost be disqualifying that the person's saying. But people don't. People are kind of afraid even to, like, I mean, not like, maybe a lot of the people who are listening to this show who are kind of like locked in on this side of things, but even people who kind of have a problem with what's going on, they want to say something or they start to Say something, they get hit with that. They, I see it in real time all the time. They don't know really how to respond. And the way you respond to that is be like, that's, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Just sh. Just, I'm not talking to you anymore. That's, it's a ridiculous, it's insulting that you would even say that to me. You know what I mean? But people take it seriously and like we're kind of, you know, the, the official sort of discourse. We're supposed to take that seriously, you know.

Scott Horton (10:40)

You know, it's funny because on anti war.com today it's 10 more Palestinians starved to death in Gaza under Israeli blockades. Has over 100 aid groups sound alarm. And so here's where you have all the eight NGOs are just absolutely demanding a ceasefire, including Doctors Without Borders and whatever the whole list, I'm sure Amnesty and hrw, whoever's on there. And I got cable TV again because what are you gonna do, man? I gotta do it. So I was watching the news and they had some pretty good coverage what was going on on the BBC. But then I, I saw on One America News Network, which I've been a guest on there a couple of times, man, they're good people mostly, you know, but just the way their structure is produced. Also some aid groups said that they wish that the war would end and that the UN would be allowed to administer some aid. In other news and it just, there's nothing to it. You would not get the idea that anything bad was happening other than UN and left wing so called humanitarian groups are whining about something like that was the headline was Groups whine not poor Palestinians are starving to death and people are absolutely desperate to try to intervene somehow to save them and can't and are, you know, going crazy at their helplessness in the situation. And none of that's in there. If you're just, you know, Joe, Republicans sitting at home watching one American news, you're not going to get this message. You're just not going to find out. You know, you'd have to have, you know, your son come to him with the martyr maid thing to break through. You know, that's what it's got.

Daryl Cooper (12:20)

There was that joint statement, I don't know if it came out today or yesterday, but very recently from a bunch of the big journalistic organizations, ap, Reuters, a bunch of them put out a joint statement saying that they're journalists there in Gaza to the point where like they're starving, you know, and it's like that kind of just tells you right there, like if they're starving, then imagine just the poor Gazan who didn't have anything, you know, a pot to piss in before the whole thing, whole thing started, like what, what condition they're in now. You know what I mean? And again, like, you just have to keep going back to the fact that like, you know, this is not like Hamas, who, you know, whatever you want to even call that now at this point now the whole city's destroyed and the population is just completely scattered and wrecked. Like Hamas is not able to put together like even a fire team level squad to go on their quote unquote operations, which is like some dude taking a pot shot at a patrol or like guys trying to plant an IED somewhere for a, you know, for an APC to drive by. I mean, these guys, they can't put together a five or six man squad for a combat operation. And so, you know, to treat this as if, like there's still, you know, there's a war going on and you know, things terrible. War is hell, things happen in war and gosh darn it, we can't let the enemy take the food.

Scott Horton (13:38)

We.

Daryl Cooper (13:39)

It's just all ridiculous. Like none of that has been going on for a long time now, you know, and that's like, that is the key point. Everybody has to keep in mind there's no war going on. There is no war going on. This is a one sided beatdown and they're going around shooting the survivors right now like that's it.

Scott Horton (13:55)

All right, so, well, as long as we're talking about that, let's go ahead and skip to the point. I mean, this is just one small anecdote. Maybe we'll get back to it in a minute. Israeli soldier. We use children as human shields in Gaza. We talked about this before. They officially call it the mosquito protocol. And one senior military officer told Haaretz, we have a subarmy of Palestinian slaves that we use to clear buildings and rubble and tunnels. And that's men, women, children, the elderly. Imagine somebody kidnapping your grandma and forcing her to go wade through rubble because they think there might be a booby trap in there. A foreign occupying army that blew up the building in the first place is why it's rubble. And that's. This is insane stuff. Steven Spielberg could make a movie about this if only some identities were changed around.

Daryl Cooper (14:47)

And this is protocol.

Scott Horton (14:49)

It's an official, it's an official policy. But, but wait, hang on. One more thing is. Yeah, but to your point is that they're moving them out and they've said this repeatedly, that the goal here, you're saying it's a one sided beatdown with the purpose of forcing them to voluntarily immigrate and they're working hard on a plan and the Trump government's going along with this to try to force them to go to Libya or Ethiopia or Indonesia, which, you know, Ethiopia or Libya. I mean these are war torn countries right now. Indonesia could potentially absorb them. But you're going to force these people to move to Indonesia. I mean, are you crazy? And they're not going to do that. They would lose. They would become the enemies of. And that's the most populous Muslim country in the world. And they're going to make themselves the pariah of all Muslim nations in the world for helping the Israelis, acting as accomplices to the Israelis for cleansing the Palestinians out of the last of the Gaza. And once they get them out of Gaza, then it's a lot easier to go ahead and finish the job and push them out of the west bank. And then the Muslims lose their control, the last of their holy sites there and the rest watch them blow up the Al Aqsa mosque and rebuild the temple and all of this stuff. An Indonesian government's going to aid and abet all of that, be a part and parcel of all that. And then the Indonesians stepped in and said, oh yeah, we'll help you get rid of these people. Yeah, I don't think they're going to play that role, but that's what they're pushing for. Maybe they could get away with it in Ethiopia or Libya where nobody's strong enough to stand against them. You just force them to do it somehow. And, and I don't know exactly how that's supposed to work. And I don't think that the people of, of of the Gaza Strip are going to give in either way. As long as there are fighting age males there, they will have a rifle and an id, you know, Makins, at least to set off booby traps and roadside bombs and whatever. They still have tunnels under the ground to fight in. The IDF says, and there may be political reasons behind this, Darrell, be interested in your opinion. But they say that there's just as many Hamas as there were before. I mean maybe you've erased their command structure. There's still 20,000 armed men hiding in a tunnel who aren't leaving. And I don't know if the numbers are still the same. I believe them that their counterinsurgency doesn't work. And I know that they certainly have the will to fight. I don't know if they truly have the capacity to continue to keep up the fight here. But the Likud, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu made a deal with people far to the right than any groups he had ever made a deal with before to stay in power. Back in. I don't want to get the year wrong. I'm guessing 22, right, is when he came in with Ben Gavir and, and Smotrich and these guys, and they're just, they have genocidal intent. They made it completely clear. And Netanyahu himself instructed the idf, the enemy is Amalek. And you remember what the Bible says about them. You're supposed to kill them all. And those were orders. Right? He didn't just say that in a public speech. He said that to the officers leading the army, that those were their orders to annihilate these people. So there's, you know, and people. No matter. I'm probably repeating myself, but it's worth repeating that no matter what you think of the icc, I mean, you don't have to respect the institution at all. But if you just go read their preliminary indictment thing, whatever they called it, their first little judgment that they issued there, it's just full of citations of Israeli officials making their intent clear. And that's always part and parcel of genocide, is the intent and expressly stated intent. The Tutsis are all cockroaches.

Daryl Cooper (18:28)

They're.

Scott Horton (18:28)

They're the tall trees. Cut them all down. So we know that this wasn't the heat of the moment or something. You guys had a plan and instructed people to carry it out. Same thing here. You call them Amalek, you say you're coming to kill him, and then you kill them. Then we know what's going on. You know, that was what you decided to do, annihilate their society. And they're only going as slow as politics necessitate, but they don't look like they're stopping. And by the way, where's the political controversy here? Everybody's upset with Trump for bombing Iran for a couple days, and they should have been. And that's not over yet. We're going to talk about that in a minute. But. But what about him being Joe Biden in Gaza and helping Netanyahu continue to annihilate these people? It's just, I mean, you look at it, just everybody else, 10 minutes, you know, and look with your own eyes.

Daryl Cooper (19:18)

How about that? Bill that Massey and, and, and Marjorie Taylor Greene put up recently to not like cut Israel off to reduce, I think the military aid we give them by like $500 million, something half a billion dollar drop in the bucket. They wanted to reduce it by really like a symbolic reduction. And I think they were the only votes, certainly in the Republican Party, they were the only votes for that bill. And you know, AOC voted against it. You know, and anytime you have an issue like this where, you know, you look at any poll and the American public is split, the world is split, the European public is split, everybody's split. Except for the US Congress is 99.5% all in one direction. You always have to just ask what's really going on. There's, you know, and, and it gives you a glimpse into how power actually operates behind the scenes. And you know, hint, hint, it's not people trying to get the most votes or something like that. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a sad situation, man. I mean, when you look at, and this, these are the things that are going to be in the history books, you know, things that right now are just sort of part of the debate and back and forth news stories and editorials, but eventually this stuff's all going to be written down in a coherent way in history books. And what they're going to see is like you mentioned Ben Gavir. He, I mean, you have to just, you have to like, just imagine that like we had a Secretary of State, which is basically his position over there, who was a member of the, who's like a leader of the White Power Party, who had gone on record talking about how Dylann Roof was one of his heroes, because that's exact. Ben GVIR is the one of the leaders of the Jewish Power Party. And he's on record saying that Baruch Goldstein did the mass shooting up on the Temple mount in the 90s, is one of his heroes. He visits his grave on a regular basis, has his picture on the wall. And I mean, this is not a guy who, this is just a straight up mass shooter. I mean, he just went in and just started massacring a bunch of civilians. And you have like their Secretary of state equivalent saying this is one of their, one of his heroes. I mean, people are going to look at that and they're going to say, I mean, what were the people who were denying what's going on here? Like outside of Israel, you know, people in our country, people who were denying. What were they even looking at? Like what this is, this is the most obvious thing any. Like you look at the Turks in 1915, look at the Germans in the 1940. They weren't anywhere close to this open about what they were doing. You know, I mean, even to their own people, they would, like, speak encoded language and kind of like tone it down for certain audiences of their own people, even let alone the global, you know, the global environment. And so, you know, they certainly didn't have like SS officers up uploading videos from Treblinka to Telegram every day like we have IDF soldiers doing from Gaza. It's. It's crazy.

Scott Horton (22:11)

Yeah, no, it is. I. I read a great piece this morning in Mondo Weiss by Mitchell Plitnick, who is. I don't know how left he is, but progressive American, anti Zionist Jew, and a great writer, great journalist. And he wrote about how the leader of Mossad came to Washington to meet with. I'm sorry, man, the real estate guy, Witkoff, to meet with Witkoff on their great Gaza plan, which is this ethnic cleansing program. And Plitnik has all the moral authority and all the Jewish identity he needs to hide behind, I guess or whatever to say that, look, man, this is exactly like Adolph Eichmann, if you listen to the way that they talk about this, where it's just, hey, I'm just doing my job, putting these people in boxcars, you know what I mean? Where it's like my job is accounting and making sure there are enough boxcars, you know, whatever kind of the bureaucratic box ticking required to get these people killed and cleansed and eradicated out of there. And how. Yeah, this is, you know, this is the problem with the Godwin's Law thing. Or even more to the point, it's the problem with what Godwin's Law was describing, which was where everything is the Nazis, Whoa. You know, who also liked to drink tap water, Adolf Hitler. So, you know, that kind of thing. And the thing is, seems to me that's actually not true anymore because he was right, Godwin was right, that any online discussion immediately turns into, oh, yeah, you're just like the Nazis. And they actually wore it out. It actually became so stupid to do that. I think people really quit doing that. But now you have people acting just like Nazis and it's like passe to call them that, Right? That's what everybody calls. Or I guess I'm not really framing that. Right, because the Democrats do call all Republicans in America Nazis and all of that and Donald Trump and all that, but it seems like the. It's all because of all the propaganda all around. It makes it more difficult for a serious guy like Mitchell Plitnick to just say, hey, look, in the synagogue I was raised in, that's not what we're supposed to support. The mass violation of human rights. What in the world is this? This is what if we're victims when this happens to us, then what does that make us when we're the ones doing it? Right? Like, that makes us the perpetrators and the other guys the victim. And that's a role that, of course, we should not be playing. It's as plain as day and. But that doesn't get a hearing, right? Because, like, the Adolf Hitler's name has been worn out by everybody who used it, you know, inappropriately or, you know, as an. In apt comparison where now it really counts. And they were talking about. We talked about this last week. They talking about, well, what we're going to do is we're going to build these camps where Rafa used to be. They destroyed it, completely wiped it off the face of the earth. We're going to build camps there, and then we're going to concentrate the Palestinians there. Like, wait, check that translation. No, that's what he said. We're going to. The Defense Minister said that we're going to concentrate them in a camp down there that we're going to build in the south as we prepare to force them to voluntarily emigrate. I mean, this is what the National Socialists said about the Jews in the Second World War. Mr. Historian, back me up on this. Like, all we're doing is transferring them to the east. And first we got to concentrate them in these camps, see, Like. Yeah. Why? And some of these guys still got their grandparents, German accents, I guess, you know. Yeah.

Daryl Cooper (25:52)

In the intervening years, they didn't. They didn't get the memo that we decided to start calling those strategic hamlets. You're not supposed to actually call them concentration camps anymore, but. Exactly. You know, it's interesting to talk about, like, build. Yeah. How like, you talk about the way that something like the term Nazi has been, you know, sort of saturated to the point where, you know, you're confronted with the real thing and it just doesn't really stick. It doesn't really mean anything. And it's not because, like, it's not even like a boy who cried wolf thing. Exactly. I don't think it's more just that, you know, we're in this weird new environment. Right. Where you can, like, they have less control over the media than. I just mean, like, the, the people in charge of people who used to control the narrative with an iron fist have less control than they ever did before. There are more ways for people to get counter narratives out and reach huge audiences. All those things are all true, and that's good. But what has actually happened and they've shifted their, their, their tactics on how to deal with this stuff a little bit. Not everybody, A lot of the old boomers, like, they're still, they're still living in the old world and it shows, and they're really terrible propaganda. But. But there is an adjustment on their side going on of realizing that the way that you fight all this stuff now is not to try to just firmly control the narrative. That's just not going to work. Creates backlash, creates suspicion, shines a spotlight on things you don't want it shined on. What you do is you just flood the zone with so much content, so much, you know, BS part, and I was gonna curse, but that people just, they're confused. They don't know what to believe. They're just too much and they're overwhelmed and everything kind of, you know, it all gets like, swept up into the content stream. And before you know it, like, kids are dying in Gaza. Starving to death in Gaza is just like, that's, that's the. This week's twist on the Gaza TV show. You know what I mean? Like, it's not actually thought of as something like, no, we're taxing Americans and sending these people money for weapons to shoot these people at the aid distribution centers. That's actually happening.

Scott Horton (28:16)

Oh, hell. Sorry, I was have my mic muted or. This is the other guy's issue. This is the thing the other guy cares about, not us. And so I get this. You're on the Tim Pool show and it's like, look, if Palestine's important, how come these icky, horrible, communist college student protesters. I don't, like, care about it. I'll be damned. I'd rather die than agree with them about anything. And it's like, in a way, like, yeah, it really sucks that the wokists who are wrong about the last 10 most important things, decided this is their issue now. Because they really are in a way, getting their stupid commie cooties all over it, which is just too damn bad because the Palestinians are still people and it ain't okay to starve their babies to death, for God's sake. But in as what you're saying about this dynamic, the. The psychology of it all, where it just becomes unreal, it becomes, I mean, message, it becomes something quite different than what's actually happening to the people there. By the time it gets to your mind.

Daryl Cooper (29:19)

Yeah. And, like, think about. And it's not even that you don't believe it. It's that there's a. There's a. There's just a layer of unreality about it, you know, where just like. Like the Epstein thing, you look at, like, every poll that comes out and like, 70% of people or more think that he got murdered in prison because he had dirt on very powerful people. Now, whether that's true or not, if 70% of people believe that, okay, that there's this mass pedophile who's working with intelligence agencies who has blackmail on people powerful enough to have him murdered and cover it up in a federal prison when everybody is, like, fully expecting him to be murdered in this prison. Right. If that is the case, well, then when's the Tea Party? I mean, that's a reason to throw down and overthrow the government, if that's what actually happened, if that's what's going on, if people believe it. But nobody's even remotely close to even thinking that way. But they do believe it. They do believe that that happened. And yet it's just kind of like it's just part of the TV show, you know what I mean? It's not something that demands action on their part. And it's the same thing here. I mean, look, like.

Scott Horton (30:32)

Well, and we don't know what to do. Right. You and me can do a podcast about it, but we don't know what to do either.

Daryl Cooper (30:36)

Yeah, that's part of it.

Scott Horton (30:38)

We're just going to get thrown in the harbor, right?

Daryl Cooper (30:40)

Yeah. And especially because, you know, like, it's, you know, when you have just completely closed ranks at, like, the elected politician level and. And the bureaucracy level. Like, you can go to what? We can go to Thomas Massie can go to Marjorie Taylor Greene a bit. You know, Democrats maybe thought they could go to aoc, can't go to her, you know, and so, like, who do you go to? It's just going to be some marginal backbencher who's going to get shut, that there's just no avenue in to put pressure on these people. I mean, you could get to the point, I think, where you could get to the point where 80% of the country was calling for an end to this and demanding an end to this. And I don't think that they would really, like, the elected politicians would really even be afraid of that, because they know that when the time Comes in a couple years and, you know, you have to choose between reelecting a Republican or getting, you know, Ilhan Omar or vice versa. On the other side, you have to elect like this person who betrayed you on this issue because otherwise you're going to get a fascist or whatever. Like, like they just have confidence that that's going to work. It's always worked before. And if, you know, the sad thing is, they're probably right.

Scott Horton (31:50)

Yeah, well, you know, I wouldn't be too pessimistic about it. I think this is one of those issues that we talked about where it's just too obvious and too simple and too easy to understand and too outrageous for everybody, no matter who you are. And, you know, there's a reason for right wingers and left wingers to want to play it down because their guy might be implicated. There's also a reason for them to want to play it up because the other guys are implicated, too. And it's just the most ugly and outrageous thing. It seems like there very well could be a tipping point about this and maybe it's already there. You know, I was like, I say I got cable TV again. So I was watching the news and one of these heads in boxes was reporting from Capitol Hill and said that they're talking to these congressmen. They're saying every phone call is about this. Nobody cares about anything but this. You're going to let these people get away with this? Are you going to do your damn job? Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring all damn day. So that's either happening or it ain't. And it's happening. People care about it and they're making it an issue. And so like, we're not all the way dead yet. And it's, you know, I don't want to be too defeatist here.

Daryl Cooper (32:50)

Yeah.

Scott Horton (32:50)

As I was saying before, you don't have to buy. You don't have to sell or buy a bunch of snake oil about. Just call your congressman, young man, and participate in democracy and everything will work out your way in the end or whatever. It's not like that. But it is worth trying anyway. It's worth keeping the issue alive. And I'll go ahead and I had to work this in here somewhere and I swear we're going to get right back to Israel and Syria and some other in a second. But this is an important example of what we're talking about and it's worth bringing up here. There's a brand new book out called Blowback by Margaret Roberts is her name. And it's about the Oklahoma City bombing, and I haven't read it yet, and I'm really, really busy, and it's probably going to be quite a few weeks before I get a chance to. Sad to say, but every other podcaster out there in the world, you should know about this book and you should have her on. She's this is not a bunch of crap. And there, there is a bunch of crap about Oklahoma City floating around out there. There are also people who are not kooks, centered around Jesse Trinidad, the lawyer from Utah, who have done very good work on this, and that includes her. This is serious journalism about what sounds like a controversial topic or whatever, but it's one that I've been good on since day one, just by happenstance, and has been, you know, very important for a long time. And one of the things that was so important about it to me in the first place was, well, what do you mean that they can get rather Jennings and Brokaw and every newspaper editor in the country to go along with this thing we're blaming on the one guy and his closest friend was two states away, and, and then that's it. And it doesn't matter that I know you're lying, that that's not true. I, I know for a fact all kinds of things that indicate a much larger thing, but I got a lot of facts that absolutely prove that McVeigh had help that day in town. And for some reason, you guys don't want to know, oh, now John Doe, too, doesn't exist at all, huh? And so to me, and I know a lot of people feel this way about 9 11, that if only I could get everyone to understand that that's how corrupt American power is, that some guy could be friends with a bunch of FBI informants and then blow up a building full of a bunch of US Government employees and their babies at their daycare and that the government would clamp down and cover that up and blame the whole thing on one guy. And that the media, the entire media from Portland, Oregon to Miami, Florida, would essentially conspire with them to do it. In fact, it's one of the reasons I became too much of a New World Order kook, because I was like, well, it must be the Freemasons or the Skull and Bones or this weird secret network of power that coerces people to go along with this, when in fact, no, they're just a bunch of idiots. You know what I mean? The editor of the Austin American Statesman, he didn't want to know better. He didn't know better. Right. But to me, if I knew better, then they must all know better, I thought, and whatever. But anyway, the point being, I thought this is on top of how important it is in its own right and for the, all the victims and all the perpetrators who were not held accountable and all that, that this is like the key to waking up everyone. Don't you see how completely corrupt America is? Our system of government is right now where essentially a bunch of FBI informants can blow up a building and the Bill Clinton government and the entire American media will let them skate and the Republicans won't hold a single hearing in Congress even though they control both houses and they do nothing but investigate Vince Foster all day long. But they don't want to touch this one. Never held a single hearing on the Oklahoma bombing. And it's the same kind of thing where it's like, okay, at some point I know the needle's going to scratch off the record, everyone's going to stop and say, hold on, we want a thousand indictments against a thousand senior officials or nobody's going back to work again. We're just not going to participate in the system anymore. We want accountability for all of these guys and just doesn't seem to happen. But I can see why, you know, these issues keep coming up and then we invest a lot of hope that like this is going to be the thing to make people realize that like how can it be that you would have someone get away with this much murder, figuratively speaking, and then be murdered and all of the things as you describe it there, this massive network of power, the as we talked about last week, the hundreds of cell phones that we see, their location data as they go to and fro from his child rape island and all of this stuff like how can it be that they're going to skate? It absolutely should be the kind of thing that would lead to some sort of major change. And the thing is though is I think it is certainly on the small scale. It's breaking through people's minds all over the place and shaking them out of it in the way that always hoped Oklahoma would 30 years ago. And so I don't know, I don't have a plan as the Kagans say. There is no articulatable plan to the desired end state. But we're going to do this anyway. You know, we don't have another Ron Paul in line ready to inherit the power and do the right thing, but we can. At the very least we got to do the hard work of discrediting the people in power who do not deserve it and are probably the least deserving of it that we could possibly have. And for another example, their support for Al Qaeda in Syria over the secular Assad dictatorship there that had the support of the majority of Sunnis as well as the Shiites and the Alawites and the Christians and all the other sects. We waged a dirty terrorist war against them and then a massive economic war against them, and then with Turkey and Israel helped destroy. Well, helped Israel destroy Hezbollah and then worked with Israel and Turkey, particularly the Turks, I guess, to help Al Qaeda break out of the Idlib province and sack Damascus last December. And now Donald Trump, just again following right in Joe Biden's footsteps, has normalized relations with Syria. Not that I'm saying he should have kept sanctions on or whatever. We should just leave Syria completely alone. But he went over and shook hands with the guy. It referred to him as having a strong past, which meant he fought Americans in Iraq War ii, and only because the Israelis hate the Shiites more and the Alawites were friends with the Shiites. And this is a corruption of American policy over there, where the war on terrorism ain't just dead, it's completely sold out. It's 180 degrees the other way. We're back on the side of the bin Ladenites and they're back on our side. And this kind of deal is intolerable. And, and continuing on, it's another one of those things that ought to just really shake people's heads out of it, that, like, think of how many Americans got on board for the I hate and fear Muslims, and let's have a terror war program for 15 years there, and all in the name of stopping bin Ladenites. But the policy now is, no, I heard we hate Iran more than Osama bin Laden.

Daryl Cooper (39:51)

Why?

Scott Horton (39:51)

How could that possibly be? That you do? Because the Israelis insist that's the only reason.

Daryl Cooper (39:58)

Yeah, and, you know, there's like a, there's a, there's a way in which, like, ever since the Second World War, when the great powers kind of all developed their own nuclear arsenals where, you know, you could fight proxy wars, but direct conflict between great powers, like, really was kind of uploaded into the information realm. And so information operations and propaganda just became just a dominant mode of, like, interstate conflict, basically, you know, and, and, and, and what that's meant. And partly the other, you know, the other reason for this is just, you know, that, that, or I would say corollary to that is that you know, subversion became a primary weapon of both NATO and the Soviet Union to use against each other. And it led both sides to engage in, like, a level of government secrecy that it just wouldn't have been. I mean, there. It just wouldn't have been tolerated in the past. It was just something where it's just. It became fully expected that the government. Well, they have to lie to us about everything all the time, because if they don't, then the enemy is going to know the truth. And so this is what's going to happen. But everybody kind of knows that that's the case, and it's the case with every. Every country. And so everybody's kind of living in this chaotic information environment where they don't know what is true or not. And so all they do is clan up with the people who seem like they're on their side and go along with that. And it's made it, though, so that, you know, I mean, look, when you look at, like, the Oklahoma City thing is a good example. Like, I don't. I've only read. What is it? Aberration in the Heartland of the Real. I think it's the only full book I've actually read on it, and I've listened to your stuff on it and other people. But, you know, I could see a world where the. The story is, you know, we were keeping an eye on these guys. We were developing informants, doing all this stuff. Yeah, we could have stopped it beforehand, but, you know, we would have got them on, like, weapons and explosive charges that have been out in a year. And then we'd be back where we were, and we. We wanted to catch him in the act. Lost track of them, and then, boom. And then we said, oh, no, we can't get caught. You know, we can't let people know that we actually were watching these guys. And so we're gonna. And so we're gonna cover it up. The Epstein thing, you know, I could see a world where, like, you know, intelligence agencies during Iran Contra and other things that were going on back then were working with guys like Robert Maxwell and Adnan Khashoggi and that they barely even knew who Epstein was. Epstein was working for those guys as, like, a money man and, like, so forth, and that his sexual proclivities were all his own thing. And, you know, if they had come out and said, look, you know, yeah, everybody knows we were doing some dirty stuff back in the 1980s. You know, when you do those kinds of things, you work with those kind of people, they're not, you know, church going, good folks all the time. Sometimes, you know, you have to work with. With the scum of the earth. And like, this guy turned out to really be the scum of the earth. But we didn't have anything to do with the sexual stuff. They could say that. And people, even if they didn't buy it, it would be enough. But instead they come out with these just lockstep, insulting lies to your face. And everybody then just kind of assumes that the worst possible scenario is probably what happened. And so the FBI worked with those guys to plan the Oklahoma City bombing so that they could have an excuse to take all our guns. Or the Epstein thing is because there's this massive, global, worldwide, like, organized ritual child abuse cult that runs the world. And. And like, you know, and again, that, you know, that by itself, I mean, I think is a. Is probably a weapon that the people who are trying to cover these things up utilize to the fullest, you know, throw the stuff out there that is. Is, you know, a compelling and interesting way to connect all the dots that to any thinking person is really ridiculous and can be kind of, or at the very least can't be. Can't be proven or supported. And then they can come in and shut that down and then, you know, sort of by proxy shut down the more reasonable people.

Scott Horton (44:09)

Yep. Yeah, No, I think that's true. And I'm sure there's a CIA manual that's been published somewhere along the line that even says to do that. You know what I mean? When people are on to us, make up even more stuff along the same lines that ultimately won't pan out and, you know, discredits the whole thing. It's a pretty obvious.

Daryl Cooper (44:29)

Yeah, there was that, you know, I remember reading about it.

Scott Horton (44:31)

There are plenty of people who are just willing to speculate about anything and are willing to muddy the water themselves and don't care. And so there's a lot of that too, which just sucks, you know?

Daryl Cooper (44:40)

Yeah. And they do, I mean, look like I remember just. This is obviously a very tame version of it, but I remember reading about a British information back in the 70s in Northern Ireland, where the British intelligence figured out that this shipment, this big shipment of RPGs that the IRA had gotten their hands on had a faulty trigger mechanism that sometimes caused them to, like, blow up in people's faces and stuff. And the British, they didn't want. They wanted. It wasn't meant to, like, stand up over a long period of time, but they wanted to keep the IRA from Figuring out what was wrong with the things like for as long as possible. So the British figured out what was wrong and they started planting stories in the press and spreading rumors that it was like anything but that was the actual problem. And like, you know, that's the kind of thing that. That's the kind of thing that they do. You know, they plant stories out there that are just purely meant to be diversions, you know, and, and you know, in our day and age when you have this very strange, right, like, you know, information environment with the Internet and social media and especially like the way everything is kind of built around viral, you know, where you can throw something like that out there. And I mean, you don't even have to like that's it. That's all you have to do. You throw it out there and get it started and it just kind of takes on a life of its own and you don't ever have to give it any input again. You know, it's just kind of takes on a life of its own and becomes an online cult built around this, this idea or this theory that's out there that's almost self perpetuating and defends itself from like outside criticism and you know, and things like that. And so, and you know, there's probably.

Scott Horton (46:24)

Well, that's what's, that's what's so great about the Oklahoma story. Right. Is again kooky topic with solid journalism on the subject. And you just can't deny the level of atrocity and the level of outrage that they would cover that up and allow the guilty to go free to protect their own asses. And that the media did go along that when they said there's no John Doe to Mike Wallace when there is no John Doe to. And then we just all lived and there is no John Doe to world after that. That is unacceptable. And so, but, but what it is, it sounds crazy on at first and see here's the other thing is most of the kookier stuff like Lori Milroy and Judy Miller trying to pin it on Saddam Hussein and these other people who said that Al Qaeda had trained Terry Nichols in the Philippines and all of this more outlandish stuff. There was a lady who in alliance with Judy Miller and Lori Milroy tried to blame it on an Iraqi and some Palestinians and all of this, it's just ridiculous. But see, all those kind of went away. You know, it's just been too long. And so now what's left is what we already knew, which was you'd like.

Daryl Cooper (47:28)

To think that we Live informants.

Scott Horton (47:30)

And there were a couple CIA associated provocateurs in there as well. And I think it's just as you described it. They were supposed to catch him red handed and then they didn't. And then they covered it up. But the real part is that they succeeded in covering it up. That, to me is the part that ought to shake everybody out of it. And that that's what's great about things. Like there's a brand new documentary that came out on HBO last year about it. And then I know enough about this book to know that this is the good stuff without the kooky stuff. But on a level though, that, that does teach you that you live in a different country than you thought you did. And in fact, I could say a mutual friend of ours had told me that he was only just learning about this and was just like, okay, I get it. So they lied about everything. Everything. And I believed it and now I don't. But like, okay, so who? You know what I mean?

Daryl Cooper (48:26)

Like, that's. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Horton (48:28)

That's a real change in life. If they could even lie about that. Are you kidding? The Oklahoma bombing too, you know.

Daryl Cooper (48:34)

Yeah. And especially when you get, you know, certain things like the JFK assassination. Like JFK assassination is a perfect example.

Scott Horton (48:46)

Oh, Daryl turned from a video into a still photograph just as he was getting to jfk.

Daryl Cooper (48:59)

Yeah, here I am.

Scott Horton (49:01)

Oh, no, there he is. He's okay.

Daryl Cooper (49:03)

All right.

Scott Horton (49:04)

I thought somebody shot you from the grassy knoll right then.

Daryl Cooper (49:07)

Now, the CIA tried to, tried to DDoS me, but you know, I got a crack security team here at the Farm, so we're good for now. But you know, it's one of those things. And like the Epstein 80s, like Iran Contra thing is another good example of this where, you know, it's sort of this, it's this, it's this topic that is always kind of sitting out there for people to go and learn a lot about power structures operating, you know, in the, in the immediate period like right before, like the world we're living in now. And so like you read about the JFK assassination, you might go down a million different rabbit holes that don't lead anywhere and come out of it still, like really not sure who killed the guy or why or whatever. But you're going to know a lot more about what was going on in the middle part of the 20th century just from doing that, you know, and that in the same thing again with like Epstein Iran Contra, I mean, you might come out of that like no more certain of anything than you were before. But damn, contra. Which means that, you know a lot more just about, like how, you know, just this. How conflicts were being. Were being waged in the late Cold War and how intelligence agencies operate, just all these different players, you know, and so they're very useful for that. And, you know, I've always made that case that, you know, Epstein is most likely going to just become another JFK thing where you never really know and people always kind of talk about it and just. It just never comes out. But that's not. Well, it's not ideal. It doesn't mean it's not useful, you know, because this issue is just. It's going to be hanging out there for people to, you know, to find their way into this world and start to question the world that they. That they do live in, you know.

Scott Horton (50:50)

And, yeah, and JFK is a great parallel because, hey, somebody blew the President's head off. Pretty hard to consider that anything but a mystery that needs solving, you know what I mean? An extremely important one that's just right there, you know, abrupt and in the open, where, you know, if he'd gone to jail for something, it would have been murky. There's, you know, obviously cottage industry of people who believe, and I think I'm probably one of them, that Nixon was set up and that Watergate was a coup against him for a variety of different alleged motives and whatever. But, hell, most people don't think that. Most people don't have any reason to think that that was anything other than he screwed up and got busted. In fact, I just saw a clip of him where he seemed very suspicious about what happened at the Watergate in the first place. But then he took responsibility for, yeah, me and my men and especially my guys, but me too, we should have just resolved the thing instead of doing what we did, trying to continue covering it up and whatever. So he was, you know, man enough to admit that part, but he seemed honestly suspicious about why would it take seven guys to break into one building together and, you know, all of that kind of thing.

Daryl Cooper (52:01)

But.

Scott Horton (52:02)

But JFK getting shot, like, you either just want to believe that, oh, they would never lie. It had to have been that one guy or not. And I think almost everybody is not. I don't know what the latest polls say, but I know it's always been super majorities of people believe. And this was. There was a great Bill Hicks joke about this, why he's always talking about jfk. He's like, well, because we didn't do anything about it. Everybody knows that it was a coup. Everybody knows that people in the government killed the guy, but then they got away with it. But then we continue to pretend that this is a democracy and the people are in charge when. Well, no, both of those things can't be true. Right. Like what are we talking about here? It was a long time ago. It wasn't that long ago. And if it's still unresolved, then it's currently unresolved. You know what I mean? What the hell. Go ahead, go ahead.

Daryl Cooper (52:52)

Yeah, I was just gonna say the interesting thing. It's like very different about our contemporary era from jfk, say, or the Oklahoma City thing even more recently. Right. Is like you said they could get Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw, whoever Chris, I don't know, whoever the other guy was. Like, you can get those guys on message. Yeah. Dan Rather, get those guys on message, get a few of the big papers on message and big media outlets and you're done like that. You pretty much did it. And you're still gonna be people out there who can like, you know, they latch onto something that some intrepid journalists, you know, put together and like they're gonna. But those people are always gonna be fringe. Whereas today now, like they don't. It's not cut. These things aren't covered up. Like everybody looks at the Epstein story and it's like, like everybody thinks there's something incredibly wrong with this that involves probably people in power. It's not really covered up. Same thing with what's going on in Gaza. There's no cover up. You know, it's just pollute the information environment to such an extent that people are kind of overwhelmed with information. They just don't know, they don't know how to respond to it.

Scott Horton (54:01)

You know, in fact. So this is the last point I want to make about Gaza. And then we got to talk to about a couple things. I guess we're going to go ahead and go over half an hour here. I think we should. But on, on Gaza, I was watching Today where I'm pretty sure it was on the BBC or. No, it wasn't actually. Did you know that ABC News has a 24 hour cable TV news channel? I didn't know that. So I started watching it and the lady, they were showing pictures of the starving babies and then the lady, she gave an adversarial interview to. I forgot the position. But an Israeli official, I believe a military official anyway, but whatever. And there's, I don't think he was just a Spokesman, I think he, you know, had a real job. But he was saying, look, man, you're right that people are going hungry. I ain't saying that, but I am saying it's all Hamas's fault. Hamas, they're intercepting all the food and keeping it for themselves and keeping it away from everybody else, and that's why it's not our fault. So. Well, I guess, first. Second, I want to hear what you have to say about that. But first, I called Dave DeCamp, who's our news editor@antiwar.com who reads and writes about this stuff all day, every day. And if people aren't reading antiwar.com, you're cheating yourself. This is how you know this stuff is read antiwar.com but Dave writes it, and he's my guy. So I called him, and I go, hey, man, so I want to know, like, the most of what you've seen of that, because I think that must be true, right? I'm not trying to take this Israeli side, but I know that the aid always goes to the fighters first, no matter where you are. You know what I mean? So that's got to be right, right? And Dave said, well, yeah, that's what I would think, too. But I've seen virtually no reports of that. Like maybe one or two rumors and statements and things. But, like, essentially, you just have Israeli sources claiming that and doesn't seem to be a widespread phenomenon, that the fighters are just intercepting the food here and that instead, what it is, is it's just the severe lack of it. It's the quantity versus the demand. They just are not letting in enough trucks. They're holding them back at these checkpoints and those checkpoints all over the place. And so that's what's causing it. So seems like a major and important talking point. I don't know if you can still hear me, Darryl. You seem to have frozen up again. But for the audience that I'm still talking to, I guess it's an important talking point on the regime side that, you know, it's everybody's fault except the people who are, you know, the owners of the zoo and have these people locked up in their pen the way that they do there. So. But it's not true. So I think we got Daryl back here. So were you able to hear all that? Yeah, geez. That was. The JFK hit squad got him again. But I'll just ramble for a minute until Daryl can fix his signal. It's part of the price of living in his own little private paradise in Idaho there. Got to get him some fiber optic lines. I'm old and need reading glasses. Yeah. Russiagate. Well, let's skip.

Daryl Cooper (57:17)

Yeah. Oh, we got you back now. Yeah, sorry, sorry.

Scott Horton (57:21)

You want to talk about Russiagate? Let's talk about Russia Gate.

Daryl Cooper (57:23)

Yeah, There was something. Oh, you were talking about. Yeah. So one thing I did want to mention is, from what I understand, as far as the food, you know, stuff you were talking about is that there have been. And this was. I. I think I read this.

Scott Horton (57:44)

Oh, hell. Well, I think he was going to say that they've been massacring the people at the aid sites, which is something important that I should have mentioned. And I'm glad he just reminded me in case I'm hopefully completing his thought there. And it's been massacre after massacre. I think we talked about this last week. It was in Haaretz. They did a big special on this. And we cover this@antiwar.com daily. They are, almost daily. Anyway, they let the people come to get food. Starving people. They blockade them till they're starving to death or at least going severely hungry. They're desperate mobs of people to get the aid. And then they blast them with either machine guns, fully automatic machine guns, and even artillery shells. They blast them with artillery men, women and children. And you got the soldier saying, yeah. And I asked my commanding officer, man, are you sure, sir? And he said, do it. So I did it. And this is all right there. And they admit it. They have army officers confirming as well, and they're just masking these people. And again, it's on antiwar.com today, that article from the New Arab, where again, further reports, again confirming Haaretz about their official policy of using Palestinians as human shields. You know, they always accuse Hamas of using human shields from. For firing rockets from densely crowded areas, you know, populated areas, which to a degree is true, although they oversimplify it, right? Where human shield has a definition. Firing from near a civilian area is its own thing. And you can just call it that. They call it using a human shield when they literally, at times you can find pictures of them. They tie a Palestinian kid to the hood of their Jeep as they're driving through. And these reports, again with their own admissions in Israeli press of forcing Palestinian and not captive Hamas terrorists, but of just regular civilians and forcing them to clear the rubble and all that. So now you got your. Your WI Fi straight. You want to talk about Russiagate? Oh, man, you need to plug into your Ethernet, young man. Ethernet. All Right, So I'm going to go ahead and talk about the Ukraine war because I want to talk about Russiagate with Daryl, but I'll tell you about the Ukraine war for a minute. There's a really great war analyst. I hope you guys watch. His name is Matt Williams and he's an Australian veteran of Afghanistan, infantry guy there. And I interviewed him on my show a few weeks ago and he's, he goes by Willie OAM on YouTube and, and he's a great analyst. He's. Poor guy's got brain cancer right now and I know he's undergoing treatment. I hope he gets better. But he does brilliant analysis of the maps every day and the news on the war in Ukraine and he does cover Gaza and covered Iran and, you know, all these things. He's a great military expert, but he's really been an expert on what's going on in the ground in Ukraine where the Russians are just on the ascent. And they kind of have Hovaratsk, this city in far western Donetsk, like 3/4 encircled and seemed to be taking their time closing the loop there as they're grinding up Ukrainian forces. And well, at the same time, they also were making moves. I was watching him this morning, he was talking about how they're making moves in Sumy as well, adjacent to Kursk, where they've now forced the Ukrainians all the way back out again. And then there are massive protests in Kiev because Poroshenko's under fire, because he signed this law or passed and, you know, announced an edict or whatever it was, reining in the anti corruption organizations that I guess were, you know, making too many complaints about the corruption of the war. So this, you know, is helping to undermine his authority, for what it's worth, in the war. And then the last piece of news on that was that they had talks yesterday, the Russians and Ukrainians, but nothing happened. They, they agreed on a prisoner exchange. But as far as talks about the lines in the war, potential ceasefire, anything like that, all that was over, you know, off the table from the beginning. And they walked out after 40 minutes. It was over. They did agree, I believe, to turn over 1400 captives each. So that's good, at least for them. But the war is continuing on and no signs of any relief. And then as far as Trump's announced arms transfers over there, you know, he said that the Ukraine, the Europeans are going to supply it all and then pay us back and all this kind of thing. But then the Europeans disputed that and I don't know exactly the form that that's taking or the degree to which that aid has been held up at all or what. But man, and that reminds me too, about. We brought up Syria before. I didn't get to mention the fighting going on there where you have the bin Ladenite government there backing Bedouin tribes, fighting the Druze and then you have the Israelis intervening in the name of protecting the Druze when of course, they're just, you know, building Greater Israel and southern Syria there and give a damn about the Druze. They'll kidnap the Druze and steal their property all day. But then. And the bin Ladenite forces were lining up the Druze and executing them and all. So it isn't like the Israelis don't have a pretext because the bin Ladenites are as bin Ladenites do. They fought against the Alawites, they murdered Christians, especially Alawites. And now they're backing these Bedouin tribes against the Druze in southwestern Syria. And you know, how are they ever going to form a coalition government with the Kurds out in the east or, or, you know, any, you know, be able to follow through on, on governing any of that country? I don't know. I don't think there's going to be much left of Syria by the time this is all said and done. And now I don't know if I should keep going. I want to talk about Russiagate, but Daryl cannot get his Ethernet to work. I don't think so. Maybe we ought to just wrap this up here, man. I wanted to talk about Somalia, to talk about lots of things, but I guess we'll just leave it here. Oh, go to the Libertarian Institute, libertarian institute.org and read Jim Bovard's great new article about Waco and the end of accountability. We really like it. And that's it for provoked. I guess we'll see youall next week. It.