Tony Kornheiser (2:50)

Yeah. There is an ebb and flow to a season when you only have 17 games. There's a tendency to maybe make a judgment a little bit early. The Lions were beaten decisively by Green Bay in the opening game. Right. 27, 13. And a lot of people, including you, got on the packers and said, that looks like a Super bowl team, and maybe threw away the Lions a little bit. I found it odd, I remember saying this on the air, that by week two, Dan Campbell was saying, this is a must win, really, so quickly. And it was the Bears. And they crushed the Bears. That's the division team. They crushed him. Was it 52, 21. Now they beat Baltimore on the road, a perennial playoff team. They have answered all of these things. They have scored 90 points in the last two games. There was a Lions team that did that as recently as, hello, 1962. And they ran. You want to talk about running 224 yards running. So they answered whatever criticism was out there. And I. When it gets time to the Wilbon power rankings in the nfc, you have to put the Lions once again in the top three or four, right?

Mike Wilbon (3:56)

Oh, no doubt, Tony. With the. You go into Baltimore and you do that. Yes. And again, I just. That maybe week one, you re. You mentioned it, and it's fair to mention it, but week one was a. Wait a minute. We're starting over here with some things. We're getting our star pass rusher back after missing most of last season. We got two new coordinators. We. We got some stuff we got to figure out. Give us a moment. They took the moment, and they seem to have figured it out. Seem to have. It's early.

Tony Kornheiser (4:24)

Very impressive. Very impressive. Very impressive.

Mike Wilbon (4:26)

It is impressive. The Ravens, meanwhile, suddenly find themselves at 1 and 2. The defense has struggled, and Derrick Henry fumbled the ball away again last night. Tone, what do you see as the big questions the Ravens need to answer?

Tony Kornheiser (4:43)

How much time do we have? Because there are a lot of questions out there. Okay. And let's start with the lines, the offensive line and the defensive line. The offensive line did not protect yesterday. Lamar Jackson was sacked seven times. That's the most he's ever been sacked. The Defensive line was non existent. This is a franchise built on defense. You associate defense with the Baltimore Ravens?

Mike Wilbon (5:03)

Yes.

Tony Kornheiser (5:03)

Last night they gave up two drives of 95 yards or longer, 25 plays, and they could not stop the team in 25 plays. I mean, Baltimore has now given up. Let me get it right. 96 points. That's the second worst in the NFL. And they have their two best players on offense. Lamar Jackson, he fumbled, got it back, but he fumbled and Derrick Henry fumbled. This is a fantastic statistic. Derrick Henry's fumbled three times in 43 touches this year. In 2023 and 2024, he fumbled three times as well in 694 touches. Okay, so if we broaden this out, what have we learned? Baltimore has played two good teams, Buffalo and Detroit. They've lost both those games. They had leads in both those games. They lost both those games. They gave up 79 points in those games. This is not what we think of as a Super bowl team.

Mike Wilbon (6:05)

No, Tony, the 79 points is the disturbing part. To me, this is the franchise of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and Tony Siragusa. This is not a franchise where people go up and down like a track meet, like the World Track and Field Championships. We just been watching against the Ravens in Baltimore. It's stunning to see they got to fix that first and foremost. You and John Harbaugh talked about. We had no run defense. They didn't. They had no run defense. You go 224 at home, somebody goes 224 down your throat. But let me get to something. This gonna sound sacrilegious. I. I hesitate to mention it because Lamar Jackson is so gifted and great and he can beat you from the pocket, he can beat you outside of it. He can beat you with his arm, he can beat you with his legs. Tony. I wonder looking at Lamar Jackson last night, if he's lost his burst, if he has lost his explosion. I'm talking about he got caught from behind a half dozen times last night. That's not Lamar Jackson. And I'm looking at this and I'm scared to text it, but I text people and I was like, I don't know if I should go here, but is it possible that seven years in, with all the hits, seven plus that he's taken, he's not even 29 yet then it's just he's lost that magical burst. He's merely a great athlete now and not otherworldly. I got. Listen, I hope I'm wrong. I hope the question is stupid, but I'm Looking at it last night going, I don't see the Lamar Jackson I've been used to seeing.

Tony Kornheiser (7:38)

All right, let's turn to baseball now and the closest division race remaining, and that would be the AL Central, where Detroit is only one game ahead of Cleveland. Detroit has lost nine of its last 10. Cleveland has won 15 of its last 17. And they begin a three game series tonight in Cleveland. Wilbon, which team would you rather see prevail?

Mike Wilbon (7:59)

Tony? I think Detroit, but I don't have a real reason. You know, these are two, you know, teams of the Midwest and in other circumstances I'd root for either one of them. I would, you know, I've spent chunk of my life being a Chicagoan going to Detroit and Cleveland for various purposes. First for family visits, I would go to the old ballpark the Cleveland Indians played in, which is where the Browns too played at the time. I'd go to the old Briggs Field to see the Tigers. And I love going to those places and watching baseball where it's been around for 150 years and it's just sort of cool to see them. The air is not turning cool here in the Midwest and as it usually does this late in September, but it's just great to see Cleveland and Detroit playing each other. The last time I was in Cleveland for a baseball game, there was something called Game 7 and the Cubs were winning a World Series. But I don't, I can't pick one over the other narrowly. Detroit, maybe, but I'm interested in seeing this series and how it plays out.

Tony Kornheiser (9:05)

This is a tough one for me because in that division I root for the Kansas City Royals because their manager, Matt Cattraro, listens to my podcast. I will say this, and I know you'll appreciate it when you're a young sports writer and they send you out on long baseball road trips to fill in for the older guys. Everybody loves going to Detroit in the middle of the summer because it stays light so long they don't even have to put the lights on until they Ferris. Sometimes you don't have to do it at all. Look, this is a very surprising turn of events. On July 9, Detroit was 15 and a half games ahead of Cleveland.

Mike Wilbon (9:38)

Unbelievable.

Tony Kornheiser (9:39)

Detroit was 59 and 34. Cleveland was 42 and 48. Detroit has fallen like the Mets. And nobody in the world would expect Cleveland to be 15 and 2 at this point. Nobody knows anybody on that team except for Jose Ramirez. They can't hit Mike. They're 30th in batting average. They're 27th in run scored, but they can pitch, and this is the number they've allowed 34 runs in the last 19 games. We talk about momentum. Cleveland has the momentum, but if momentum is today's starting pitcher, Detroit has Tarek Skubal on the mound tonight. Let's take a break. Coming up, how will the absence of Nick Bosa change things for the Niners opponents? We will ask Jeff Saturday.

Mike Wilbon (10:22)

We'll also ask him if the Colts early success is sustainable. Yes, I think we have to root.

Tony Kornheiser (10:29)

A little bit for Detroit because our friend Mitch Albom is from Detroit, right? It's got a root.

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Tony Kornheiser (12:46)

Let's dig back into the NFL trenches with our great friend ESPN NFL analyst Jeff Saturday, we're going to talk about Derek Henry. He's a great running back, there's no question about that. He's now fumbled three times already this year. He's lost two of them. As an offensive lineman, Okay, I know you like to run the ball. Everybody in the offensive line would rather go forward than go backwards. But do doubts ever creep in, even with someone as great as Derrick Henry?

Jeff Saturday (13:12)

They really don't, Tony. And the truth is, what you're more concerned with is that the doubts creep in to. To his head. Because as an offensive lineman, you. You. You have this trust, this implicit trust in the guys that are going to run the ball. You're going to go put hat on hat. You're going to knock guys down. He's going to go make that explosive play like he made in the first quarter, where he bounces it and takes it for 25 or whatever it was for a touchdown. So every time you put the ball in his hand, you're expecting an explosive play. Unfortunately, the last few, you know, last couple weeks, it's been disastrous. Right? The one against Buffalo and then the one last night. And you can see, like, the weight on him, and you can feel how disappointed he is in himself for what's going on. But as an offensive lineman, when you got a guy like Henry, I mean, a Hall of Famer, the guy is a freight train. He's a bring your own blocker. You love fighting for guys like that. You want to fight with him to get through this. And look back on this as you're trying to ascend to the super bowl at the end of the year and go, man, you remember how bad we felt after week three and put this thing behind you.

Mike Wilbon (14:18)

Well, I know how much everybody in the industry hates injuries, Jeff, but the one guy people will not have to fight with anymore the rest of this season is Nick Bosa, who's out for the season. Now, what does that do for the offensive lineman as they face the 49ers and they don't have him specifically bearing down on them?

Jeff Saturday (14:37)

Yeah, so as an offensive lineman, you have.

Tony Kornheiser (14:40)

You have.

Jeff Saturday (14:40)

You have pass rushers, you know, tough ones, and you got closers. And Bosa is. Is in the closer category. Right. Game on the line, you know, third and four, plus everybody in the building knows you got to throw it or you're going to throw it, and he's on the edge. You are Moving around. You want to find him, right, because he's the guy who's going to make the play. He's going to, he's going to spin inside, he's going to hand slap you, he's going to work the edge, he's going to fight through you. He's going to be relentless in his rush, you know, strip sacks, all those kinds of things that kind of come to mind. Guys like that are difference makers in the NFL. There are a lot of really good pass rushers, but guys who close in those moments, which is the category I would put Bosa in, it is a sigh of relief, you know, for offensive linemen because those are the ones we put our antennas up, right? You track them, you find them as a center, as you're calling protections, you're always looking to see what where he's lined up is he coupled with somebody that he loves to run games with. You know, there, there's a litany of things that you're thinking about when there's that kind of guy. It's a massive loss out in San Fran. You hate to see it for anybody, but the, the Niners have had a ton of injuries early and that one's a big one because again, as you get to the games that matter, you want guys like that lined up to close games out.

Mike Wilbon (15:58)

We're going to stay with offensive line for one more question. Jeff. The Houston Texans 03 now spent their off season trying to fix, build up, figure out what was up with their offensive line. I guess they came into the season thinking they had done it and they haven't. What's the problem there? Sounds like more than one, so I'm.

Jeff Saturday (16:16)

Going to say it this way. This is when the idea of just players are going to fix a problem, right? We're this, this particular player is not going to be good, so we're going to replace him with someone else. The organization as a whole or the team as a whole has not done a good job of placing protection at the forefront. And Stroud is an absolute stud. I have a ton of respect for this kid, but he gets hit a ton. And I don't care how strong you are, how big you are, when you start getting hit, you start making bad decisions because bad things creep in your mind. Your feet move, your eyes drop down. There's a number of different things that happen to quarterbacks. This has to be a let's fix it with scheme as much as we're trying to fix it with just players. So whether you got to keep tight ends in, you got to keep backs out. You're going to have fewer guys in the route. And again, part of this is, you know, running back was hurt. You know, Mixon's hurt.

Tony Kornheiser (17:10)

He's.

Jeff Saturday (17:11)

That's the run game isn't as good. Collins is there, but he's really your only threat. So there's not a lot of fear being struck in the defense anyway. So how can we manufacture. But I would tell you this. Every, every pass play that I ever ran with Peyton Manning as my quarterback was a protection first play. And you want to. How do we protect it and allow him to figure it out? Right now Stroud is taking way too many hits and it's trickling down into his performance and the offense as a whole.

Tony Kornheiser (17:42)

Thank you for mentioning you and Peyton Manning. It gets me to the next question. You're great talking about other teams, but now we're going to talk about your team. You played for the Colts, you coached the Colts. The Colts are Now a surprising 3 0. What are you seeing that's making them successful? Nobody figured three zero. And is it sustainable?

Jeff Saturday (18:05)

Well, it is sustainable. And I will tell you, Warren, the addition of Warren offensively, the tight end who they drafted, you know, early in the draft has been phenomenal. The first game we were there for the Jim Ursay I ring of honor induction, I think he caught the first four passes that Daniel Jones threw. Shane Steen has done a fantastic job of getting him comfortable. Jonathan Taylor is, is on a blazing pace. They're running back, he's running wild. Their receivers are making big plays. He's averaging. Daniel Jones is averaging nine yards a completion, 72%, I think completion rate, like it's, it's absurd. But this team can do it because at every position they're good at some positions they're great, but they're good at almost every position. From offensive line, receivers, tight end, running back. When you have that and Daniel Jones is executing at a high level, it is sustainable. Their defense is doing their job, keeping this thing happening. You know, the Denver thing is miss field goal, you know, penalty, all that kind of stuff that happens in the NFL. But this, this team, it will be one to face come playoff time because, because everybody will be nervous and Daniel Jones continues to keep playing the way he is.

Tony Kornheiser (19:17)

Playoff time. You got him in the playoffs. Look at you.

Jeff Saturday (19:20)

Absolutely, I got him in. South champs, baby. Let's go.

Tony Kornheiser (19:26)

Wow. Let's take one last break. Still to come, the Giants make a change at quarterback. Of course they did. Should we expect the results to differ.

Mike Wilbon (19:36)

And Oklahoma State says see ya to his long time head coach. You know Tony, I always say Jeff is the voice of reason, voice of reason on all these days. He's everything.

Tony Kornheiser (19:48)

He's the reason.

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Tony Kornheiser (21:37)

Pardon the.

Jeff Saturday (21:38)

Interruption is brought to you by the.

Tony Kornheiser (21:40)

All new ESPN app All of ESPN all in one place. Your home for the most and best live sports. Happy time people. Happy 29th birthday. Nafisa Collier the Minnesota Lynx star was a finalist for WNBA MVP but lost out to Asia Wilson winning a record 4th MVP. Collier played for Geno Oriem at Connecticut and won a national championship there in 2016. She has spent her entire WNBA career in Minnesota, where she was Rookie of the Year in 2019, Defensive Player of the Year in 2024 and a five time All Star, Collier averaged a personal best 22.9 points per game this regular season. The Lynx are currently one game up in their semifinal playoff series against Phoenix. Game two is tonight.

Mike Wilbon (22:31)

Tony. When you are a franchise and you lose the great Maya Moore, I mean, you know she retires, it's going to be impossible to replace her. Except the feast of Collier, man with a cast of characters has come really close and they have not suffered. They're back in the finals.

Tony Kornheiser (22:50)

Happy anniversary Dave Craig. On this day 40 years ago, the Seattle Seahawks quarterback bobbled a fourth and gold shotgun snap, then picked up the ball, excuse me, that the Rams had tried to gather for scoop and score, scrambled to his right and threw a touchdown pass to the Seahawks. Danny Green. Craig started out as a seventh string quarterback at a tiny now defunct school in Wisconsin, Milton College. He ended up in the NFL for 19 years. After he worked out as an undrafted rookie for the Seahawks in 1980 and caught on as their third string quarterback, Craig became a three time Pro Bowler. His is the story that dreams are made of.

Mike Wilbon (23:28)

Tony. Speaking of replacing people, Craig had to try and replace Jim Zorn who was like all everything at the beginning of that franchise's history. So if I said to you, you gotta pick one, Craig or Zorn, which way you going?

Tony Kornheiser (23:43)

Craig's numbers are better. His lifetime numbers are better. Happy trails to Russell Wilson's starting job. The winless Giants are reportedly starting rookie Jackson Dart at home against the unbeaten Chargers on Sunday. The Giants are coming off a loss to the Chiefs in which Wilson had a passer rating of just 43.8. The previous week, Wilson threw for 450 yards, but that was against the Cowboys defense, so everyone may have overrated it. The giants drafted dart 25th overall out of Ole Miss and the fans have been chanting for him.

Mike Wilbon (24:13)

Tony, you can still put him in there too early and and ruin him. I mean, everybody's got to be rushed in because Russell Wilson's looked ordinary at this point. They had to know that when they signed him. It's not 2013, it's not super Bowl. Russ, what did you think you were doing? Unbelievable.

Tony Kornheiser (24:34)

For years. And a bonus. Happy trails to doing it the easy way again for Jacob Young. The Nats center fielder made the show yesterday for a remarkable catch he made against the wall on Sunday when he lost the ball, then kicked it, caught it for an out. Last night, Young added to his highlight reel, bobbling a sinking liner before shagging it with his bare hand.

Mike Wilbon (24:55)

That's pretty good, Tony. I was going to say oh, he just coordinated this stuff? Nope. He's just quick and decisive. Maybe a little lucky.

Tony Kornheiser (25:02)

Great fielder. If only he could hit big, finish quickly. Oklahoma State fired football coach Mike Gundy. Does that make sense?

Mike Wilbon (25:10)

He won 10 games a lot of times. I know he had a bad season this year. 11 out of 12 losses going back to last year. But not the whole season. You couldn't give him the whole season. Titans head coach Brian Callahan handing over play calling duties to quarterbacks coach Bo Hardigree. What does that mean?

Tony Kornheiser (25:26)

Means Hardigree knows Cam Ward better than anybody. It's a good move. The Liberty will not renew the contract of head coach Sandy Brandello. You're to supposed what?

Mike Wilbon (25:34)

She won a championship a little over a year ago. What? Baseball will officially implement the automated ball strike challenges next season. You okay with that?

Tony Kornheiser (25:46)

Emphatically yes. Last one. The Aces tried to even their series with a fever at home tonight. Do you like their chances? Yeah, they better win.

Mike Wilbon (25:53)

They can't go 02 down in the five game series losing the first two at home. No, no, no.

Tony Kornheiser (25:58)

We're out of time. We will try to do better the next time. I'm Tony Cornhotge.

Mike Wilbon (26:02)

And I'm Mike Wilbon. Same time tomorrow, knuckleheads. You fire a championship winning coach.

Tony Kornheiser (26:08)

What?

Mike Wilbon (26:09)

Here's sports. You've seen the headlines, heard the debates.

Tony Kornheiser (26:14)

The three point ball has created a.

Mike Wilbon (26:15)

Monotonous rhythm to the game.

Jeff Saturday (26:17)

Has the three pointer ruined basketball?

Mike Wilbon (26:20)

And how did we get here? The rise of a three point shot can be partially traced to an eccentric.

Commercial Announcer (26:25)

Kansas genius named Martin.

Mike Wilbon (26:26)

Martin Manley, whose story didn't turn out quite the way he imagined.

Jeff Saturday (26:30)

I decided I wanted to have one.

Tony Kornheiser (26:32)

Of the most organized goodbyes in history.

Mike Wilbon (26:35)

30 for 30 podcast presents Chasing Basketball Heaven. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.