Tony Kornheiser (3:14)

I'm not going to track over anything you said. I agree with most of what you said. It's a very good trade for the Celtics. Brad Stevens makes very good trades. He everybody likes. Everybody likes Jrue Holiday. He did a great job in the Olympics. He did a great job when Boston won a championship an hour and a half ago. Right. Just last year when they won the championship. He's 35 years old. He's entering his 17th season. They're getting a guy who averaged 19 points last year. You don't have to worry about ball handling, even without Holiday, because White and Brown and Pritchard, they all handle the ball. And you're getting a guy who's 26. You just traded 35 for 26 and 35 for 26 with an expiring contract. That's wonderful. I'm a little bit more uneasy and nuanced about the possibility of Porzingis going, because Porzingis, I love him when he's healthy, but he's never healthy. He's Joel Embiid and he has a mysterious illness. So you don't know what his durability will be if and when he comes back. I'll get to the Wizards briefly. Yeah, you think more of them than I think of them. They're on a youth movement. They've drafted, I don't know, 65 people in the last four days, it seems. And some of them might work out down the road, but they're also bringing in old people now. They're bringing in McCollum. They brought in who? They bring in Marcus Smart. They brought in Khris Middleton. It seems to me that they are trying to win the 2015 NBA Championship, and I don't think they know what they're doing. I don't. That's just me. Jordan Poole. Of course they were going to trade him, right? He's always traded for one good team to another bad team.

Mike Wilbon (4:50)

Yeah, I'd rather have C.J. mcConnell, Jordan Poole any day of the week in my locker room full of young players.

Tony Kornheiser (4:55)

100% of the time.

Mike Wilbon (4:56)

No brainer.

Tony Kornheiser (4:57)

100% of the time. I'm just saying I don't think the Wizards have a long term plan for all these old guys. I don't. Okay.

Mike Wilbon (5:03)

All right, let's move to the aftermath of Tyrese Halliburton's torn Achilles. The Pacer star posted that he did not regret playing with his calf strain, saying, quote, I do it again and again after that to fight for this city and my brothers for the chance to do something special. Close quote. He added again quote, People tell me I'm gonna come back stronger. What a cliche. Lol. This belief sucks. But I will do everything in my power to get back. Right. Close quote. Tony, how would Halliburton's comments sound to you if you were any part of Pacers nation?

Tony Kornheiser (5:39)

Well, let me just say that if I was a fan of the Indiana Pacers, first of all, I would be proud. I would be proud that this man put his career on the line to play in a game 7 and 1 championship for my town. And I would be proud of all the nice things that he has said about Indianapolis. And I would not be angry that he's going to be out all next year and that the team is greatly diminished because he's going to be out all next year. I wouldn't have said what he did was selfish. And I would like to think that I would have done the same thing if I were in his shoes. But I'm not a Pacers fan and I don't live in Indiana. And so it was with great interest today that. That I watched a bunch of former athletes, basketball players and football players on morning television shows line up to get in lockstep, you know, and just say how great Halliburton was and to say I would do the same thing. You know, they praised him and they said I would do the same thing. And I get that. But nobody talked about the actual cost of what happened here. Not the theoretical cost, the actual cost. He's out. He's going to be gone probably the whole year. And this is not a bone that broke that, you know, with 100% certainty is going to heal. No, that's not necessarily true. You don't know how he'll be when he gets back. And so while I applaud what he did, if I were a Pacers fan, if you come to me next February when my team is under 500, maybe I don't feel as benevolent about the thing.

Mike Wilbon (7:06)

I am not only not a Pacers fan, I'm not part of the Pacers nation. I grew up in the state next door. And my tendency is to hate everything in Indiana. And let me tell you this. When I read, before I read Halliburton's explanation, this wonderful letter to everybody involved, he was already rising up my favorite player list. And now he's at the damn top of it. Okay? Because this is what you do. Sports is where it's risk. It's always risk when you go out there. And so I don't care. Yes, I'm in lockstep. This kid went out there to try to win a championship. And anybody who wants to criticize that needs to walk the hell out the side door. I don't want to hear from them. Nobody jumps.

Tony Kornheiser (7:51)

Nobody's criticizing him. I don't want to hear it. No. Nobody is criticizing him. And I'm not criticizing him. I hope to do the same thing. But I am saying there is an actual cost that you will fail all of next year. Right? You'll feel it.

Mike Wilbon (8:05)

There's a. Yes, there's a cost for anything. He went out there knowing this could happen. That's why he slammed the floor as many times. He knew it would happen. He hoped it didn't. He's playing for a title. Let me ask you this. How many titles the Pacers got? How many banners they got hanging up there?

Tony Kornheiser (8:24)

They got three in the ABA and none in the NBA. If it's a game seven, you do it. If it's a game two or three, I don't know. Maybe not question it. Right.

Mike Wilbon (8:32)

Maybe not.

Tony Kornheiser (8:33)

I love them. I don't know.

Mike Wilbon (8:34)

My favorite player, favorite player in the league.

Tony Kornheiser (8:39)

He's not the most overrated. The playoffs prove that. Let's go back to Cal Rawley, who we talked about yesterday. Big Dumper hit another bomb last night. That's his fourth straight game with a homer and his 32nd homer of the season. That puts him four clear of Aaron Judge. Now everybody expects Aaron Judge to be the MVP again. Wilvon, would you like to make the case for Raleigh over Judge?

Mike Wilbon (9:02)

Yeah. Tone is real short. Catcher. It's the most difficult position in baseball. The most difficult, the most demanding. Often all you gotta do is look at the number of former catchers in dugouts as managers. And you know, these guys are more than just tough wearing what you. What used to be called people don't even know anymore. Tools of ignorance. Just the opposite. Tools of intelligence. Because the smartest guys on the field are often the catchers. They control everything, every single pitch of a game. People now pitch barely, you know, four or five innings. But catchers are out there the whole time. And this guy's hitting. He's in a category. That's why I said yesterday I used Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella. Those were multiple time MVPs. And arguably the greatest catchers, Josh Gibson of all time in Major League Baseball, this guy is doing something that puts him above Aaron Judge. To me, if you just look at his hitting, but we're not going to just look at his hitting, his power numbers, his home runs and his runs. He controls the game. He's a catcher. There's honor in that. That goes beyond any position in baseball.

Tony Kornheiser (10:15)

And I agree with everything you said, but I will point something out. It's very hard for a catcher to win the mvp. Well, maybe it's not as hard as it is rare, okay? In the century we're living in now, only two guys, Buster Posey and Joe Maurer, are catchers that won the MVP. You have to go back, Mike, to 1976 to get two more. Pudge Rodriguez won it in the 90s, but Thurman Munson won it in 1976. If my math is correct, that's 49 years. And everybody's gonna say, whoa, what about Johnny Bench? Johnny Bench won the MVP in 1972. That's 53 years. Why does this happen? Because catcher is not a glamour position. It's a utilitarian position. And it's hard, right? You can't play it every day. You just cannot physically do it. If a team gets a catcher they like, they put that catcher back there for 15 years and they don't say a word about it to anyone because they're so happy. Now catching right now, the typical batting average for a catcher is.239. That is the lowest average on any position on the team. Rawley's hitting 40 points above that. And he's a switch hitter. He's got more home runs than Aaron Judge. He's got more RBI than Aaron Judge. He fields his position better than Aaron Judge. He was the Platinum Glove last year. He was the best defensive player at any position in the league. So he was T.J. watt. So he was Myles Garrett. Mike, if he played today in New York or la he'd be the face of the league today, above Ohtani and above Judge just for today because of what he's done this year. Let's take a break. Coming up, how are the rash of Achilles injuries affecting the NBA? We're going to ask Brian Windhorst.

Mike Wilbon (11:57)

We'll also ask him what he expects from the Lakers new owner. Yeah, he's, he's yelling at don't yell.

Tony Kornheiser (12:05)

At me about Tyrese Halliburton.

Mike Wilbon (12:07)

No, come on, you're shot.

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Tony Kornheiser (13:41)

Let's dig back into the NBA with our great friend ESPN senior NBA writer and the host of the Hoop Collective podcast, Mr. Brian Windhorse. I go to the glasses. We saw three Achilles tears in the postseason. Tyrese Halliburton, Jayson Tatum, Damian Lillard. They all had them. Are you seeing any bigger picture impact from those things?

Brian Windhorst (14:03)

Yeah, we're seeing a crazy dichotomy developing between what I can only call an arms race in the Western Conference and teams in the Eastern Conference with these terrible injuries potentially downgrading their rosters to wait for their guys to get healthy. So we just saw a trade today where Drew Holiday goes to Portland. Portland, which is for sale by the way, takes on a 35 year old, a two time champion, but a 35 year old with $100 million contract with the hopes of getting to 10th, getting to 9th. Like it was a crazy move for a team that was celebrating going 25, 25 in the second half of the season. And so what I'm seeing is in the East, Boston is pulling money off of their roster because they can't justify a 4 or $500 million payroll when Jayson Tatum's probably not going to be able to play. I've got Milwaukee evaluating what, what they're going to do with their seven free agents, considering Dame Lillard may miss the majority, if not all of next season. And Indiana was all set to go into the tax for the first time in 20 years and now I don't know if they're going to do that with Tyrese Haliburton going to probably miss all of next season while teams are beating each over the head to crawl into the plane in the Western Conference. And I think this is potentially only going to get more exacerbated over the next couple of weeks in the transaction season.

Mike Wilbon (15:23)

Wow. All right. As long as we're talking about movement, Brian, let's talk about Kevin Durant leaving Phoenix to go be traded to the Rockets. Because out here in the desert we're very underwhelmed by what the Suns got in return. But what strikes you about the KD to Houston move?

Brian Windhorst (15:42)

Well, player empowerment is live. And well, because Kevin Durant basically blocked a trade to have the warriors trade for him in February and he blocked a trade, the potential for the Timberwolves to trade for him about, you know, seven to 10 days ago, I think both of those deals would have or could have gone down had Durant not stepped in and said, I don't want to go there. So with one year left on his contract, he was able to force his way right to a spot where he wanted, which was Houston. And the thing that I think is remarkable about this is we're looking at a situation where Durant is, you know, handpicking his team and Phoenix paid a premium to get him in a closed market. When he hand picked Phoenix, they paid four first round picks and three swaps and two players and then the market was closed up by Durant again because he wanted to direct himself again. And then they got a small price, so they paid a premium to get him in a closed market and they sold him at a low price in a closed market and they lost on both ends of the deal. Not ideal.

Mike Wilbon (16:39)

All right. The movement in Los Angeles, does it involve players yet? It involves, as you know, ownership. What are you expecting out of this change? And the new owners of the Los Angeles Lakers.

Brian Windhorst (16:54)

So I want to be respectful of the Buss family because they have been incredible stewards of this iconic brand and they have always treated stars very well. But compared to their fellow teams, they are a generation behind. They are not modernized in the way they operate their teams and the way they do their staffs, the way their systems are. And based on what happened with the Dodgers after Mark Walter and his partners bought the team, this team is going to be modernized. And I would say that if I was a rival team, I would be thrilled what this sale did for the value of my franchise and not thrilled that the Lakers are going to have the brand and the backing that they haven't enjoyed in a long time.

Tony Kornheiser (17:40)

We will get you out of here on this. What is going on with the Knicks never ending search for a new head coach?

Brian Windhorst (17:48)

Well, in this case, I'm just going to list some facts. Okay. The Knicks are not in a hurry. This is a choice. Okay. We have several of their coaches that they wanted to interview from other teams that have gotten contract extensions. Well, IME Udoka got one for sure. Billy Donovan is in the process of getting one. Jason Kidd has not gotten a contract extension. Jason Kidd's top assistant, Sean Sweeney has left to go to San Antonio. Another one of Jason Kidd's top assistants, God ShamGod might be leaving. Those are facts. The Knicks are dragging their feet. I assume it's with a purpose. So let's just watch how things play out. They definitely could still hire some of these guys who are unemployed, but maybe they're taking their time for a reason.

Tony Kornheiser (18:38)

Well, if that reason has anything to do with Jason, Kid your kid. You heard one plus thank you, Brian, as always.

Mike Wilbon (18:43)

One. Brian.

Tony Kornheiser (18:47)

Let's take one last break. But still to come, Lionel Messi and Inter Miami do something once thought improbable.

Mike Wilbon (18:54)

And the Mavs reportedly lock up a piece on the eve of the draft. That should land them Cooper Flack.

Tony Kornheiser (19:05)

I still don't know why they expired Thibodeau.

Mike Wilbon (19:07)

Jason Kidd.

Tony Kornheiser (19:08)

I still don't know why they fired Thibodeau.

Mike Wilbon (19:10)

I've always believed that Jason Kidd is going to wind up coaching the Knicks and not the Mavericks. That's just what I believe.

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Tony Kornheiser (20:22)

Happy Time People. Happy 21st birthday, Reed shepherd it's possible shepherd is on the verge of more playing time in Houston now that Jalen Green is gone in the Kevin Durant trade. Certainly, Shepherd's rookie year was not what people expected. When Shephard was drafted third overall after one and done at Kentucky, shepherd got only 12 minutes a game, averaged only 4.4 points. And this was surprising because a poll of NBA executives and scouts had suggested Shepard would be a candidate for Rookie of the Year. Maybe Ime Udoka will give him more time next season. If I were a guard in Houston, I'd give the ball to Kevin Durant and I would get out of his way.

Mike Wilbon (21:02)

Now they're going to need help from him, Tony. But the slurpee of this kid coming out of that one year in college seemed preposterous to me. And four minutes a game is probably about the right way to have gone his rookie year.

Tony Kornheiser (21:17)

Happy anniversary, Steve Hamilton. This is posthumous, but on this day 55 years ago, Hamilton threw his E FIS pitch, known as the Folly Floater to Cleveland's Tony Horton, who fouled it off. Horton asked Hamilton for the pitch again and fouled out to get catcher Thurman Munson, prompting Horton to toss his bat and helmet and crawl back to the dugout on all fours. In addition to his 12 seasons in the majors, Hamilton at 66 played two seasons in the NBA. Hamilton and pitcher Gene Connelly are the only two to have played in a World Series and an NBA Finals. Hamilton for the Yankees and the Minneapolis Lakers and Conley for the Milwaukee Braves and the Celtics.

Mike Wilbon (21:58)

Tony the Rifleman Chuck Connors played for the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Celtics. But he didn't make it. He just sort of missed it. Even though he was hanging around a couple of championship teams for a minute. A minute?

Tony Kornheiser (22:09)

Yeah. Happy trails. To the group stage of the Club World cup for Inter Miami. Lionel Messi's team advanced to the knockout round of 16 by tying Brazilian club Palmeiras 2 to 2 last night. Many had ridiculed Inter Miami for even being included in this tournament. Just last month, Inter Miami's coach said, quote, it's clear that we are not at the level to compete at the Club World cup, but we will try to compete in our group. But five days ago, Messi's team beat FC Porto. The first ever win for a CONCACAF club team over UEFA club team. And now Inter Miami advances to face Messi's former team psg, which just won the Champions League.

Mike Wilbon (22:50)

That's exciting. Even though PSG doesn't have the star power it had recently.

Brian Windhorst (22:56)

They just.

Mike Wilbon (22:56)

You mentioned they won one of the biggest tournaments in the world. I can't. I'm going to watch this and I'm going to try to call you and convince you to watch it, too.

Tony Kornheiser (23:05)

Send me a pink shirt and I'll watch it. Let's go to the big finish. The Mavs are reportedly extending Daniel Gafford to the tune of three years and $60 million. Is that a smart move?

Mike Wilbon (23:17)

Yes. Put a vet with some size and experience next to your prize rookie you're going to draft is a smart move. Diamondback star Corbin Carroll, out indefinitely with a chip fracture in his left wrist. That's a big loss.

Tony Kornheiser (23:30)

He's a great player. He's rookie of the Year a couple of years ago. Yeah, it's a big loss. The White Sox signed Noah Syndergaard to a minor league deal. Is that significant?

Mike Wilbon (23:39)

It's been a while since he was Noah Sind Cindergard, but he's only 32. Maybe there's a chance to one of these storybook late, late, late comeback stars. Scubal faces the A's tonight. Justin Verlander returns to the Giants. Gets the Marlins more compelling.

Tony Kornheiser (23:53)

I would say Verlander, because I like Verlander. You know that last one. The Cardinals beat your Cubs eight to two last night. How'd that taste?

Mike Wilbon (24:01)

We're still like three and a half ahead, but I didn't like it. I'm worried about our direction lately.

Tony Kornheiser (24:07)

We're out of time. We will try to do better the next time. And I'm Tony Kornheiser. I'm Mike Loebine.

Mike Wilbon (24:12)

Same time tomorrow, knuckleheads.

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