Reform UK, Nigel Farage, and Elon Musk (E311)

Summary

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QAA Podcast – Episode 311: Reform UK, Nigel Farage, and Elon Musk

Date: February 13, 2025
Hosts: Jake Rockatansky, Annie Kelly, Julian Feeld, Travis View
Special Guest: Joe Mulhall (Hope Not Hate)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the rise of Reform UK—a surging right-wing party in British politics—under the leadership of Nigel Farage. The hosts analyze the party’s links to far-right figures like Tommy Robinson and recent flirtations with billionaire Elon Musk. They explore how political respectability, online amplification, and rightward shifts in mainstream parties have allowed far-right talking points to march into public discourse. The episode balances reporting, analysis, and sardonic humor to unpack the threat Reform UK poses, the strategies it uses to appear “respectable,” and what can be done to challenge its growing influence.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The British Far Right: A Pub Conversation Gone National

• Class Divide, Same Destination:
  The British far right’s two most notorious figures—Nigel Farage (upper class, ex-banker) and Tommy Robinson (working-class football hooligan)—both present as men you’d reluctantly encounter in a grimy pub, underscoring the far right’s penetration across social classes.

  • “That is so awesome that your country is being held hostage by two pub lizards, essentially.” (Annie, 01:41)

• Robinson’s Recurring Imprisonment:
  Despite repeated incarcerations (currently 18 months for libel against a Syrian refugee), Robinson’s fan base has grown to include more “respectable” figures such as Jordan Peterson and Elon Musk, aided by replatforming on X (Twitter).

  • “He goes in and out… like the Trailer Park Boys. At the end of every season, he goes into prison and at the beginning he gets out.” (Jake, 02:55)

2. Reform UK's Meteoric Rise

• Election Surprises:
  Reform UK exceeded expectations in the 2024 election, gaining five MPs—including Farage finally entering Parliament. Despite the UK’s electoral system disadvantaging smaller parties, polling shows Reform vying with Labour and overtaking the Conservatives in some surveys.

  • “Eighteen months ago, we had 8,000 members. We've now got more than 100,000.” (Richard Tice, 10:11)

• Mainstreaming the Fringe:
  Polling, and the party’s own rhetoric, suggest Reform’s support base is split: wealthier libertarians support Farage’s anti-immigration and minimal state policies, while economically deprived supporters want more worker protections and state intervention—policies contradictory to Reform’s actual agenda.

  • “There are real fault lines between Farage, who tells them that he's a man of the people, but actually supports a raft of policies that deep down his supporters don't agree with.” (Joe Mulhall, 20:46)

3. The Culture War Toolkit

• Rhetoric vs. Reality:
  Reform UK’s platform blends aggressive culture war language (on immigration, “wokeness,” drag queens, etc.) with vague promises of reviving public services. However, analysis points out that cutting immigration and taxes would likely devastate UK public services, especially the NHS.

  • “It seems to me that freezing immigration, cutting taxes and government spending would… absolutely obliterate public services and especially the NHS.” (Jake, 18:33)

• Coded Messaging:
  Reform uses “woke ideology” and school “confusion” as code for anti-LGBTQ+ politics. Hosts emphasize the party’s Americanization of UK culture war discourse.

  • “We’ve got a new American export: wokeness.” (Jake, 13:18)

4. Respectability Politics & The Far-Right Spectrum

• Drawing Lines—Strategically:
  Farage has always positioned himself just close enough to “fight tough battles” on “acceptable” right-wing issues, but draws a public line at explicit white nationalism and Robinson’s style—framing it as a matter of optics, not genuine ideological disagreement.

  • “We absolutely excluded anybody who'd ever been a member of the British National Party, the English Defence League…” (Farage, 24:26)
  • Yet, as guest Joe Mulhall points out, the dividing line between Farage and Robinson is mostly stylistic and strategic, not substantive. Their views on immigration and Islam often align. (30:51)

• Internal Party Tension:
  About half of Reform’s support base sympathizes with or openly supports Robinson, while the leadership tries to distance itself for respectability reasons.

5. Elon Musk Enters UK Politics

• Billionaire Endorsement—With Strings:
  Elon Musk expressed open support for Reform, praising Farage, hosting him at Mar-a-Lago with Trump, and (reportedly) considering $100 million in donations.

  • “There have also been persistent rumors of Musk considering a donation of $100 million to Reform.” (Jake, 34:10)

• Public Advocacy—And Fallout:
  Musk amplified far-right tropes about Muslim grooming gangs and accused Labour politicians of complicity, endangering MPs with inflammatory rhetoric.

  • “Musk called her [Labour MP Jess Phillips] a wicked witch and a rape genocide apologist.” (Jake, 42:17)

• Divorce Over Robinson:
  Musk’s passionate support for Robinson—and willingness to pay his legal fees—forced a public rift when Farage refused to back Robinson fully. Musk publicly called for Farage to step down as leader.

  • “The Reform Party needs a new leader. Farage doesn't have what it takes.” (Musk, 53:27)

6. Shifting the Overton Window

• Reform’s Effect on Mainstream Parties:
  Labour’s rhetoric on immigration has become nearly indistinguishable from Farage’s—highlighting the pull exercised by Reform’s rise.

  • [Labour Leader Keir Starmer:] “Brexit was used for that purpose—to turn Britain into a one nation experiment in open borders.” (Labour speech via host, 62:27)

  This “race to the bottom” is compared to U.S. Democratic strategies of out-competing Republicans on tough border enforcement, demonstrating international parallels.

• The Power of Euphemism:
  Media descriptions like “populist” or “national conservative” help sanitize and normalize far-right ideas, avoiding more accurate terms like “racist” or “far right”.

  • “Using ‘populist’ instead of more accurate but also stigmatizing terms such as ‘far right’ or ‘racist’ acts as a key legitimizer of far right politics.” (Annie quoting Dr. Aurelien Mondon, 64:53)

7. Far Right Entryism & Policy Extremism

• Extremist Infiltration:
  Neo-Nazi Mark Collett urges ethnonationalists to join Reform covertly, seeing it as the most viable vehicle for far-right ideas. (69:05)
• Vetting “Issues”:
  Reform’s vetting failures have led to candidates making explicitly racist and anti-Semitic posts, some even advocating to let migrants drown—a stance publicly made by their (now-former) deputy leader.
  • “At some point... do they take them back to France or not? … Are you genuinely saying the reform UK policy is we will let people drown to make a point? Because I think that's what you're saying.” (Jake, 67:00)

8. Climate Change Denial & Big Money

• Anti-Climate Platform:
  Reform politicians (notably Richard Tice and Rupert Lowe) publicly promote climate denial and claim net zero policies are ineffective—aligning with heavy funding from fossil fuel–linked donors. (72:46, 73:30)
• Oligarch Backing:
  The party now boasts major billionaire donors and property moguls joining as treasurer, deepening links to vested wealthy interests.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “There is a broccoli uprising and it is not good.” (Annie, 45:21)
• “He just always so chipper. It's quite a clever media strategy when some of the policies that you're advancing are, like, a little bit nasty.” (Jake, 23:43)
• “It lends these parties a veneer of democratic support through the etymological link to the people and erases their deeply elitist nature.” (Annie via Dr. Mondon, 64:53)
• “It's the easiest thing to do is to blame it on, you know, somebody else and advertise a quick fix.” (Jake, 80:19)
• “I've been researching the far right for long enough to know that it’s never a bad bet staying pessimistic.” (Jake, 76:44)
• “No matter what Farage says about maintaining a firewall against the fascist or white nationalist right, they just keep doing joining.” (Jake, 68:27)
• “It would be brilliant if the Reform Party ended up getting sort of, you know, 80 something MPs at the next general election. And 10, 15% of them were sort of closet ethno-nationalists who could help drag the party even further in the right direction.” (Mark Collett, 69:54)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:45–02:34: Introduction to the episode’s focus: “the looming threat of the far right,” Farage, Robinson, and the pub analogy.
• 04:23–07:18: Review of Robinson’s career, his attempts to portray himself as a political prisoner, and his new transatlantic support.
• 08:57–11:18: Richard Tice celebrates Reform UK’s growth; polling data showing Reform overtaking Conservatives.
• 12:56–14:45: Reform’s messaging focuses on economic hardship and “woke” culture war issues.
• 20:46: Joe Mulhall explains the split in Reform’s support base (rich libertarians vs. poorer state-supporters).
• 24:26: Farage describes why he previously excluded BNP/EDL members for respectability.
• 30:51: Mulhall on the split between Farage’s and Robinson’s supporters within Reform.
• 34:10–36:27: Farage boasts about support from Musk and details about alleged $100 million donation.
• 41:05–42:17: Musk singles out Labour MP Jess Phillips, leading to security concerns.
• 44:02: Farage refuses to condemn Musk’s incendiary language, falling back on "free speech."
• 53:27–54:11: Musk turns on Farage, calls for new leadership after the Robinson rift.
• 64:53: Media language and mainstream parties' complicity in normalizing far-right ideas.
• 69:05–70:03: Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative) details strategy of far-right entryism into Reform.
• 73:30–74:52: Tice and other Reform figures dismiss net zero climate policies as futile.
• 77:48: Joe Mulhall on fighting Reform UK: only mass organizing, not just protests, can counter their rise.

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Analysis and Takeaways

• Reform UK is skillfully navigating the boundaries between “acceptable” and “unacceptable” far-right discourse, pairing nationalist/anti-immigrant positions with populist economic appeals, even as its leadership quietly undermines the welfare state.
• Figures like Farage are less ideological boundary-keepers than astute managers of public respectability. Their rejection of figures like Robinson is about optics for broader appeal, not substantive policy dispute.
• Despite media attention and public handwringing, mainstream parties, especially Labour, have adjusted language and priorities rightwards under the pressure of Reform’s surge instead of directly challenging their underlying premises.
• The support and visibility provided by figures like Elon Musk underscore the internationalization and online amplification of British far-right narratives—often using American-style culture war rhetoric.
• The hosts and their guest argue that fighting this trend requires both large-scale organizing against the far right and a material improvement in people’s daily lives to prevent fertile ground for scapegoating and simple solutions.

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Conclusion

The episode ends on a note urging pragmatic resistance: only mass organizing, holding Labour to account, and providing a positive vision for change can stem the far right’s momentum. The hosts admonish against fatalism and urge listeners to both get active and stay informed, blending their characteristic humor with a sobering analysis of the UK’s political landscape.

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Further Reading

• Jake’s article about the grooming gangs scandal on Webworm (link in episode description)
• Hope Not Hate newsletter & campaign info

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Summary prepared for listeners new to the episode.

Transcript

[Host (Jake)]

Sa.

[Co-host (Jake)]

If you're hearing this, well done. You have found a way to connect to the Internet. Welcome to the QAA podcast, episode 311, Reform UK Nigel Farage and Elon Musk. As always, we are your host, Jake.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Rakatansky, Annie Kelly, Julian Fields and Travis View.

[Host (Jake)]

A very happy new year to all of you, my charming little listeners. I hope you're all safe and well, especially those of you living in the United States, where, at least from the outside, it appears that planes are falling out of the sk, the government is being stripped down and sold for parts, and various sections of the landscape are spontaneously bursting into flames. Here in the United Kingdom, we're mostly safe from that last one, at least on account of the entire country being permanently damp and a little bit mouldy. What we are unfortunately not safe from is the looming threat of the far right. That's what this episode will be examining as we discuss the political party Reform UK and its relationship to the country's two most prominent far right figures. Those figures are Nigel Farage, Mr. Brexit himself and Reform's leader, and Tommy Robinson, the perpetually re imprisoned anti Islamic agitator.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

That is so awesome that your country is being held hostage by two pub lizards, essentially.

[Host (Jake)]

I know, just dudes.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Dudes who should be in a K hole in like the back of a grimy pub are somehow wheeling their bodies out there and. And taking you hostage.

[Host (Jake)]

I know. I think that's kind of what beautiful about the British far right is that like, you know, Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson are from the opposite ends of the class spectrum. Right. Nigel Farage is very kind of posh, very sort of, you know, privately educated. Tommy Robinson obviously starts out as a football hooligan, and yet they both strike you as the kind of guy that you could very easily, you know, find yourself uncomfortably making conversation with in a pub that you, you know, really shouldn't have gone to. And. Yeah, kind of just desperate to finish the conversation and leave.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, they keep popping off to the bathroom for a cheeky line and they come back and the conversation's even more uncomfortable. Like they just seem on edge.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, that's it. And, you know, I think that is a charming feature of our far right politics.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, their pupils just keep getting larger and larger and larger every time they return.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, Violence. Closer and closer to the surface.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, I love that this guy's is so problematic that you use the term re imprisoned. Like, this guy just. He goes in and out of. He's like the trailer park boys, like at the End of every season he goes into prison and at the beginning he gets out.

[Host (Jake)]

Literally. I have lost count of how many times he's been in prison.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

It's just the hash in here is fantastic.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host (Jake)]

Now, to some of our longer term listeners, these topics might feel like something of a retread. Farage and Robinson were actually the first two topics I ever covered for this podcast all the way back in 2019. I wouldn't actually actually recommend revisiting those episodes. I was brand new to the world of podcasting and had pretty much no idea what I was doing. Plus, the sound quality sounds like I'm speaking through a walkie talkie in a cave somewhere. More importantly, unless I suppose, if you're an audio fascist like Julian, what the fuck? There's no doubt, though, what I wrote back then is now firmly out of date.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

So you admit that I made it so much better, that it used to be so bad, and yet I'm still a fascist. You cannot win.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, I will admit you have made the sound quality better, but you were a little bit fascist about doing it.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

That's right. I allied with your husband, to be frank.

[Host (Jake)]

That's true.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

He was my axis.

[Host (Jake)]

He genuinely was, actually. Yeah. There was a time. I'll just give you a bit of a behind the scenes look where, yeah, both of you just started ganging up on me and bullying me, saying that I needed a new mic.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

That's right.

[Host (Jake)]

I was just like, this one works fine. Yeah, you were just like. You're like, it doesn't. We'll pay for a better one. And Paul was just like, yeah, the sound quality is really bad. He's right. Amazing. If you research the relationship between conspiracy theories and the British far right, both Farage and Robinson are inescapable. So they've cropped up in my reporting many times, but I haven't really gone into what they themselves have been up to over the last five or so years. That's a problem. As I'd argue, both are unfortunately in much, much stronger positions than they were back in the heady days of 2019. Truly, we didn't know how good we had it.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

You know, with Farage, I kind of understand that. But with Robinson, I was convinced this guy would sideline himself somehow. I know.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

So grim.

[Host (Jake)]

Let's have a quick recap of the main players here for the benefit of those of our listeners who have the good fortune not to be familiar with them already. Tommy Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley Lennon, founded the Far right street movement, the English Defence League. In 2009, the EDL differentiated itself from other far right political groups like the British National Party by rejecting what you might call classic nationalism and instead focusing specifically on Islam and immigrants from Muslim countries. When I last covered Tommy Robinson, he was about to go to prison for violating a court order by publishing a live streamed video of defendants entering court. Before being sentenced, he appeared on infowars to directly appeal to President Donald Trump, presenting himself as a political prisoner. I feel like I'm two days away from being sentenced to death in the UK Journalism on behalf of my family. We love the United States. I have no future here. It's inevitable I will be murdered. I will be killed. My name is Tommy Robinson. Today I am calling on the help of Donald Trump, his administration and the Republican Party to grant me and my family political asylum in the United States of America. I'm sat here today before you to make my case of political persecution. I have been found guilty of what is the equivalent of exercising First Amendment rights. Funnily enough, 2025 finds him in a very similar situation now serving an 18 month sentence for repeating claims against a Syrian teenage refugee that were ruled to be libelous in a previous court case. Once again, he has managed to present himself to a gullible international audience as having been imprisoned by a dystopian British government for telling the truth about Muslim grooming gangs. This time though, Robinson has gained fans from more respectable right wing thought leaders than Alex Jones, people like Jordan Peterson and Elon Musk. This and the combination of him having been replatformed on the social media platform X means he seems to have actually managed to become something of a core celeb for the international far right. So yeah, I mean, he's still going into prison all the time, but he has big, bigger time fans now, which I think, I think is actually really helping him out as we'll talk about a little bit later.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

I mean, I'm assuming most British voters are also in prison, so maybe he's just kind visiting it to court his audience.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, we all just take our turns in prison. Now let's move to Nigel Farage. Farage rose to prominence in this country as leader of the Eurosceptic outfit, the UK Independence Party, known more commonly as ukip. Under his leadership, UKIP moved from being a single issue anti EU party to having a more coherent right wing populist platform, which led to some of the party's great successes, first in European parliamentary elections of 2014 and finally with the Brexit referendum itself following Brexit's shock win in 2016 and some internal disputes with his UKIP successor, Farage launched a new party called the Brexit Party, which has since rebranded to the less single issue sounding Reform uk. Now. When I last discussed Farage, he was certainly the UK's most prominent far right demagogue on the international stage, but he had never actually been an MP after the 2024 general election. However, the Essex constituency of Clacton now holds the dubious honour of being represented by him in Parliament, Reform uk. In fact, Reform UK very much exceeded expectations in that election and managed to gain four MPs, taking its grand total to five. They already had one, Lee Anderson, who defected from the Conservatives. Now, five MPs may not seem like a lot in a pool of 650, but it was more than they were projected to win in the polls leading up to the election. This led Reform's deputy leader, Richard Tice, in a podcast interview to make a confident assessment about the party's future.

[Richard Tice]

I think too many people, people sadly thought that a Reform vote was a wasted vote. It wasn't a credible vote. What we're proving now is that, and there's a whole load of nonsense talked through the campaign, I mean, there was a serious effort by the mainstream media to do us down, and so in particular by the sort of the last die hard supporters of the Tory Party in the name of the Daily Mail. And so, yeah, we were probably suppressed on votes by half a million to a million votes, but we've just kept on pushing. And that's the thing, you know, when I started on this endeavour and people thought I was completely bonkers, I always remember the words of my late uncle who said, richard, you've got to be in the room to be in the deal. My view was you've got to be on the ballot paper if you want to effect change. You just don't know what happens. Events, Deborah, Events and events came our way in multiple ways and we just were just plugging away and word spread slowly but surely. And by being at the table then, you can pick up some crumbs. In a sense, that's what we've done. But the momentum we've got since the election is remarkable. Eighteen months ago, we had 8,000 members. We've now got more than 100,000. We've doubled since the election. Doubled since the election on July 5th. No one would have thought that possible.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

That's so awesome. It's like a virus describing itself, replicating at an alarming speed.

[Host (Jake)]

No, you're Right. That is actually a perfect description of it. Yeah, he's right as well. They have overtaken the Conservative Party, I believe, on members. Not that I think the Conservatives ever, like, had like a huge amount of members. It's kind of one of those things where often, Yeah, I guess it's one of those things where they're not, like, hugely. That's not where their funding comes from a lot of the time. But this all might seem like the usual bravado, I guess, from a fringe party. No one's going to talk down their chances essentially, of winning big at the next election, even if those chances are in fact very small. But there does seem to be a depressing amount of evidence that he is actually correct. The first YouGov voting intentions survey released since the 2024 general election showed Reform actually overtaking the Conservatives as the party of opposition with 25% of the voting intentions compared to Labour's 26%. Conservatives sat with just a measly 22. The latest polling, which was released on 3 February, actually showed reform sitting a point above Labour.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Terrific.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, I love bringing bad news. Now, before you all start panicking, it's worth noting that one charming little quirk of the UK election system is that what percentage of the popular vote you get is actually almost totally immaterial. Take 2019, when historically unpopular Communist crackpot Jeremy Corbyn took Labour to its worst ever defeat since the dawn of time with a mere 32.9% of the vote share.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

I see you've. I see you've folded. I see. I see that you've. You're following the line. That's good, that's good. I'm glad that your Labor Party also got reformed, mentally.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I see Richard Tice has been feeding you crumbs from the table.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, I'm looking to be the new Secretary of state for QAnon and the upcoming Labour cabinet reshuffle. Compare that to 2024, when our charismatic leader, Keir Starmer, stormed to a historic landslide with a whopping 33.7% of the vote and about half a million less votes themselves. So all of this is to say that even if Reform are genuinely this popular, by the time of the next election, which is probably a good many years away, it may not actually help them unless those votes are spread efficiently over a majority of seats. I'll be honest, though, and say that I'm pretty sure that all of what I just said is what experienced sophologists call left wing cope. So if reform really are going to be the next party of government in these sacred aisles. It's worth going a bit deeper beyond the far right label to see what they actually stand for. For here is what the landing page of the Reform UK website.

[Richard Tice]

You are worse off both financially and culturally. Wages are stagnant, we have a housing crisis, our young people struggle to get on the property ladder. We have rising crime. Energy bills are some of the highest in Europe. The NHS isn't working. Both legal and illegal immigration are at record levels. And WOKE ideology has captured our public institutions and schools.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Mmm, I see we've got a new American export wokeness.

[Host (Jake)]

There's something interesting going on here, I think, and it becomes clear when you watch a lot of interviews with reform politicians, which for my sins, I have. The party is best known for its hardline stance on culture war issues like immigration and WOKE ideology in schools, which I assume is their coded way of saying anything to do with LGBT people. But I think they understand that there's a hard ceiling of support you can get for being the party of culture war. That stuff might animate people to yell at each other online, but when it comes to voting, a lot of them will be focusing much more on how you're going to actually materially improve their lives. And so this is a strategy that the spokesmen for Reform have clearly been taught to follow. Keep banging the drum that life in Britain is expensive hard, and that many of our most vital institutions are failing. Here's Richard Tice, who I played earlier, staying on message in a different interview.

[Richard Tice]

The extraordinary thing, we're becoming mainstream. You've now got three political parties polling in the 20s. You know, we're, give or take, 21, 22%, labour a couple ahead, Tories a couple ahead of that. It's all within the margin of error. And it's extraordinary. Never happened before, I don't think in my lifetime that I can think of. And so a lot is going on and there is a real sense of shift at a time when at all different age groups, people are feeling poorer financially and the quality of life.

[Host (Jake)]

And here's Lee Anderson, Reform's first ever mp, who defected from the Tories when he got kicked out for saying that Sadiq Khan, the Muslim mayor of London, was secretly controlled by Islamists.

[Richard Tice]

Now, I don't want to give it.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

To the Tories, but, I mean, is.

[Richard Tice]

Is feels very quaint right now. The idea of a Conservative party running someone out for being too racist and conspiratorial.

[Host (Jake)]

I know, right, yeah. Like you really have to be trying Very hard, in fact. Yeah, there's quite a funny thing about Lee Anderson is that I believe since 2018, I might have the days wrong. He is actually defected from both Labour first off, and then the Conservatives.

[Richard Tice]

All right, just going on the tour.

[Host (Jake)]

So basically he's continued just getting kicked out of people just being like, nope, you're too racist for us. And now he's found home and reform. Lee couldn't resist bringing up drag queen straight out of the gate, but managed to steer himself back to the company line.

[Joe Mulholl]

Well, I always say I want my country back. And when I say I want my country back, people go, you're racist, you're bigoted. No, they're not.

[Richard Tice]

What I mean is, I want my.

[Joe Mulholl]

Schools to be like they was.

[Richard Tice]

You know, where you go to school and learn. You want to have a drag queen sat there reading your bloody stories.

[Joe Mulholl]

You know, kids won't be told that there could be 25 different genders. I want them to learn to read and write, do the maths and be equipped and have opportunities when they leave school. I want to be able to ring a doctor up in the morning and get an appointment the same day. I want my constituents to be able to go to a dentist the same day and have a tooth pulled out or have that treatment.

[Richard Tice]

I want bobbies to walk these streets. I want rapists and criminals locked up. I want murderers locked up for life.

[Joe Mulholl]

It's not much, is it, really? Yeah, we can do that.

[Co-host (Jake)]

This man is like 40 cigarettes away from certain doom. I mean, I wouldn't be too worried about this guy. He can barely breathe.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

25 genders. Gotta date them all.

[Host (Jake)]

No, that's actually a really good point, Jake. And yeah, for our listeners, like, they're not walking, like, a brisk pace at all. And yeah, he is. He's qu. Audibly wheezing.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Can you imagine how miserable your life must be if you're. You're walking around being, like, to four.

[Richard Tice]

Genders or reading rhythm.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Like, just being like, just, just, just spouting off, like, all of the, like, new understandings about sexuality and gender that, like, you just personally don't like. And you're just like reading Huck Finn.

[Joe Mulholl]

Huckleberry Finn and talking about Jim.

[Co-host (Jake)]

You really like, oh, my Lord. Oh, my Lord. I wouldn't trade places with him for the world.

[Host (Jake)]

But something I do want to make clear for those of you who aren't living in the uk, is that there are some decent points buried in there. Doctor surgeries genuinely do have longer and longer wait times to get an appointment. And in many parts of the country, including where I live right now, NHS dentistry basically just doesn't exist anymore.

[Richard Tice]

Again, it's, I mean, it's like. It is very interesting that, you know, in the midst of his, you know.

[Co-host (Jake)]

His bigoted mumbling, he has this expression, this desire for improved access to healthcare.

[Richard Tice]

You know, which is something that we don't even get here in the us.

[Host (Jake)]

No, definitely. But what are reform actually planning to do about it? Let's go back to what their website says.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Only reform will stand up for British.

[Richard Tice]

Culture, identity and values. We will freeze immigration and stop the boats, restore law and order, repair our.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Broken in public services, cut taxes to.

[Richard Tice]

Make work, pay, end government waste, slash energy bills, unlock real economic growth. Only reform will take back control over.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Our borders, our money and our laws.

[Richard Tice]

Only reform will secure Britain's future as a free, proud, enriched nation. Join the revolt.

[Host (Jake)]

So, ignoring all of the less bad things and more good things stuff in there, what are the actual concrete policy plans? As far as I can tell, they are freezing immigration and cutting taxes and government spending. Now, I really have to stress here that I'm not a policy wonk, but it seems to me that freezing immigration, cutting taxes and government spending would be the three main tasks on my agenda if my chief policy goal was to absolutely obliterate public services and especially the nhs. This is a bit of a bind that lots of right wing politicians find themselves in if they sweep to victory on an anti immigrant platform. As actual bonafide policy wonk Stephen Bush wrote for the Financial Times. While voters often say they want lower immigration alongside lower taxes, they'll also generally punish any governing party who actually grants those wishes because of the inevitable heavy impact to public services.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Most political choices can be boiled down to a simple dichotomy, to do less or to spend more. Immigration is no exception. If states reduce the number of people who can come into their countries and work legally, they are forced to either do less because vacancies aren't filled or spend more to attract and retain domestic talent. The NHS is a useful example here. Pay and conditions in the NHS are middle of the pack in terms of the global healthcare market. What that means is that some of the doctors and nurses we train end up working in the us, New Zealand or elsewhere, while we in turn recruit around 20% of our staff from Africa, Asia and Europe. So if politicians actually want to keep their promises on immigration, they need to be willing to spend and to tax more. They also need to be willing for both the state and the private sector.

[Host (Jake)]

To do less, but the state doing more for people seems to be at the heart of reform politicians rhetoric. Better gps, better wages, better schools. Although to be fair to them, on that last one, I don't have a concrete figure on how much our education sector is currently spending on drag queens. I spoke to Joe Mulholl, the director of research at Hope Not Hate, the largest antifascist organisation in Britain. He told me that their research, research shows that this complication in reform's policy platform is one that's reflected within their support base.

[Joe Mulholl]

I mean, we've been doing polling on reform voters for some time and it actually ties into some of these questions about how is it we split reform voters away from reform the party? And actually you can broadly split people who support reform into two categories and it's based on economics. You know, there's richer supporters and there is more economically deprived supporters. And what's really clear is, you know, reform isn't just a party that says we don't want immigration. Nigel Farage's economic policies are really libertarian. You know, he's talked about money more, or perhaps the full privatization of the National Health Service, less workers rights, all these sorts of things. It's very pro business for a lot of the more economically deprived or lower income households that support reform at the moment. When you actually ask them what they want as well as, you know, while they care really fundamentally about immigration, they want more workers rights, they want more state investment, they want the nationalization of various industries, etc, there is real fault lines between Farage, who tells them that he's a man of the people, but actually supports a raft of policies that deep down these supports don't agree with. So there's that element. There are fault lines distancing from the far right.

[Host (Jake)]

Despite only becoming an actual MP last year, it's undeniable that Nigel Farage has been the most influential figure in British politics in the last 10 years. Having spent nearly his entire political career agitating for a referendum on Britain's membership of the eu. Many commentators optimistically predict that he would become a spent force in British politics post2016, having had his defining issue essentially put to bed. In fact, he became something of a kingmaker in the 2019 general election. Reform. Then the Brexit party made an electoral pact with the Conservatives to essentially let them run unopposed. Conservatives won the election handily in 2024. Reform weren't feeling half as benevolent. And even in seats where they didn't directly take a seat from a Tory mp, they often managed to undercut their votes so that Labour walked in. Now it seems that there's a genuine chance Farage might move from being kingmaker to king, but not like the actual king, because we also have one of those. Winning a general election, though, means being seen as respectable by enough people who matter. This has been a tension in Farage's image from the very beginning. One of the reasons he was so inescapable in the media for so long was because he positioned himself as a cheeky outsider, unbound by the usual political pieties on gender, race and immigration. But to take this strategy too far would be to be ostracized by polite society completely, to borrow his deputy Richard Tice's metaphor, not at the table receiving your crumbs.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Farage also kind of. He looks like somebody from, like, the aliens universe who, like, works for the company, but, like. But he, like, pretends to be. He, like, pretends to be kind of on your side. Like, he's sort of affable at first. Like, he doesn't have that. He doesn't kind of have that, like, imposing, sort of just like a resting, resting sort of. Sort of like bitch face, like Trump does.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, he's so damn cheerful. Do you know, it's something I've noticed in, like, having watched lots of interviews with him over last few weeks. He's just always so chipper. He's always got a smile on his face, like. It's quite a clever media strategy when some of the policies that you're advancing are, like, a little bit nasty, do you know?

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Just a little bit.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Exactly.

[Host (Jake)]

This is why Farage has always kept quite a firm line on white nationalism. When he was leader of ukip, he maintained a bar of anyone who had previously been a member of the British National Party and explicitly White Nationalist Party, or Tommy Robinson's edl. In fact, when ukip, at the helm of Farage's successor, began inviting Robinson to party events, Farage made a very public demonstration of leaving the party in protest.

[Richard Tice]

I have worked tirelessly for ukip. I've spoken at one and a half thousand public meetings up and down the country during those years. I've traveled hundreds of thousands of miles. And the aim was very simple. It was to take votes away from the establishment parties to force a vote in this country that would get us back our independence. And you could argue that in 2016 we had been pretty successful. One of the keys to that was talking about things that everybody else wanted to brush under the carpet, issues like immigration, which we were told if you discuss that it's somehow disreputable. I made sure that UKIP talked about tough issues, but we absolutely excluded anybody who'd ever been a member of the British National Party, the English Defence League. We wanted to make sure that when the abuse was thrown at us, it couldn't possibly be proved to be true. Now I'm afraid that over the course of the last few months under this leader, Mr. Gerard Batten, a lot has changed and he seems to be pretty obsessed with the issue of Islam. Not just Islamic extremism, but Islam. And UKIP wasn't founded to be a party based on fighting a religion crusade. And also obsessed with this figure called Tommy Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley Lennon, who is seen by some to be a great hero, standing up and, and fighting for working class people, but who has a pretty suspect record and who brings with him a group of people, I'm afraid, amongst which we see scuffles, violence. Many have criminal records, some pretty serious. And all of it's been dragging UKIP away from being an electoral party into a party of street activism, scuffles, horseplay.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, this is quite a funny. Yeah. The British media often refers to like fights, like street fights as scuffles. I'm like, not, not totally sure what that's about, but it's just like a very like British media word.

[Co-host (Jake)]

It's scuffle. It's like, you know, when two characters in a cartoon show approach each other aggressively, they, their bodies disappear and they sor. Turn into like a tumbling dust cloud.

[Host (Jake)]

It's a scuffle. Yeah.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

It's also what you would call a fight between two boys wearing like Bermuda shorts and ties.

[Host (Jake)]

That's it. It's kind of like quite a durable word. Yeah, it's not too durable word for like the likes of what the EDL actually do.

[Richard Tice]

Yeah.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Glassing each other. I once, I had a Canadian buddy that I worked with years ago. He had a tattoo on his, his shoulder that said it was like W, G, A, C A, almost like where we go when we go out. I was like, what does that mean, man? And he goes, it means what goes around comes around, buddy. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, you know, fights. I was like, oh, you've been in a lot of fights. And he goes, 100 street fights guaranteed, buddy.

[Host (Jake)]

What? Now just imagine if he'd been bragging about being in a hundred scuffles.

[Co-host (Jake)]

100 street fights guaranteed. By the. He's a pretty famous guy. Like he's definitely been in shows that I'm sure that you all have watched. I saw him throw his cousin through a window at Wasega beach, too.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Oh, all right. Anyways, well, this is good. I'm glad you relate to this episode, because most of your friends are re. Imprisoned.

[Co-host (Jake)]

He was certainly not allowed in the United States, I'll tell you that.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Awesome, dude.

[Host (Jake)]

Now, if you think I'm being overly cynical here by saying this is simply about maintaining respectability rather than Farage's genuine distaste for ethno nationalism, it's worth bearing in mind that this is actually exactly how he framed the divide himself. In a recent interview, you've mentioned Tommy.

[Richard Tice]

Robinson a couple of times. Mr. Farage, are Robinson supporters welcome in Reform UK? Well, people who sympathise with the fact that he wants to fight against grooming gangs. Yes. But if you genuinely think. If you genuinely think that this guy is a hero figure in every way, given his record, given some of the things, not just that he said that he's dumb, then maybe we're not quite right for you. I understand a lot of people sympathize. A lot of people sympathise with what he's had to say about what's going on, on in British towns and cities. And he's grown up himself in Luton, where there have been a lot of community problems. So I understand that, you know, sympathy. Yes. But if you're an outright, you know, if you're an outright guy thinking this should be the next Prime Minister, then clearly reform's not for you. How concerned are you that those people might join Reform, though?

[Joe Mulholl]

Because you mentioned in the past people.

[Richard Tice]

Have been attracted to parties in which you've been involved with views you say you've opposed. Can I be very clear? The last time Tommy Robinson stood for elected office, he got 2.2%. All right? I'm leading a party. We've got ambitions to upset the apple cart in British politics in a way that's not been seen for over 100 years. Him and his close advocates can do what the hell they like. We're gonna do what we do without them.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Is that a bunch of cut limes on his tie?

[Host (Jake)]

I can't tell from here. Can you. Can you zoom in? Can you enhance.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I think those are. I think those are limes on his tie. I think he's got. And did he say. And did he say they're trying to do something with the apple cart? Upset the apple cart.

[Host (Jake)]

Upset the apple cart? Yeah.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Is that. That's a.

[Host (Jake)]

It's kind of a slang that's not a slang. That's across the pond.

[Co-host (Jake)]

No, we don't have apple carts here. We've got overpriced apples.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Unfortunately, the scuffle upset the apple cart.

[Host (Jake)]

Elon Musk publicly rejecting Tommy Robinson in order not to appear too threatening seems like a pretty sensible calculation, and probably one I'd do myself in Farage's situation. In a way, having a signifier like Robinson floating around in British politics is actually quite useful for Reform because it means, when confronted with labels like far right, they're able to draw a clear line between themselves and someone a little further down the respectability ladder. But it's not entirely straightforward. For one thing, Joe Mulholl at Hope Not Hate pointed out to me in our conversation that this is another dividing fault line and reform support base.

[Joe Mulholl]

Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson, in many ways, there's really close parallels in what they believe in terms of their attitudes towards immigration and society and a whole range of issues. There is a huge difference in style. Nigel Farage wears his expensive suits. You know, background as a public school boy, worked in the City as a multi millionaire there. Tommy Robinson was a football hooligan from the streets of Luton. And Barrage, as a result, has always thought that he needed to distance himself from Tommy Robinson, even though in many ways he believes and says very similar things. The big fault line has come here, is that with Tommy Robinson in prison, many of Tommy Robinson's supporters, some of whom were at the largest far right demonstration the UK seen in decades last year in July, where there was maybe 30, 000 people on the streets, were calling on Nigel Farage and Reform to defend Tommy Robinson, to come out and support him. But Nigel Farage and Reform rejected that and said they would refuse to do it. And this has caused a huge split within the base of Reform. And our polling shows that it's roughly 50, 50. Some of the reform voters and supporters think Tommy Robinson's too extreme and shouldn't be touched. But there is a big chunk in the party, the other half, that think that he speaks for them and he might be a bit rough around the edges, but he says the same things we do and we should support him.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Can you guys imagine if the United States, like, in addition to Trump, also had like a rude, like, hockey player who was going around who was like, almost just as popular and like, and just like, like even more extreme? It would be. Fuck, that's who it. It would be a hockey player, by the way, that's kind of like. I think that's like the American equivalent.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, well, it maybe speaks to, you know, the often discussed difference between the UK and the States where we're like, I don't know, classes, we're much more class stratified society. So, you know, you need your far right emblem depending on which class you're in. Whereas maybe in the States, you know, what's beautiful about it is that rich or poor, you can all join in on admiring this billionaire, right? I don't know, but maybe that's it.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, I mean, that is very true. I think the United States, you know, one of the biggest problems that we have is there is a conscious sort of steering the conversation away from class and being conscious of that.

[Host (Jake)]

So.

[Co-host (Jake)]

So it makes sense.

[Host (Jake)]

And the party recently discovered that Tommy Robinson has one very high profile supporter who disappointing has come at a significant, very literal cost. I'm talking about everyone's least favourite billionaire, Elon Musk. I really am sorry to keep on bringing this guy up because I know we're all sick of him, but if he does continually insist in meddling in my country's far right politics, I don't have much choice. Those of you who listened to Our Premium Episode 258, Princesses and Pogroms might remember how I spoke about Musk's blatant and incitement of the anti immigrant race riots that happened here in the summer. There, at the very height of the violence, he posted helpful statements like, civil war is inevitable. Since then, Musk has kept his interventions in UK politics at a steady ebb. Posing for a photo up with Farage at Trump's Mar a Lago resort in December, Farage posted that photo to X with the caption britain needs reform. To which Musk responded, absolutely. There have also been persistent rumors of Musk considering a donation of $100 million to Reform. When asked about it following his trip to Florida, Farage commented, we are in.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Negotiations about whether he can help. He is fully behind this. He is motivated enough by what's going on in Britain to give serious thought to giving money.

[Host (Jake)]

Now, it's worth saying to our US listeners that this size of donation is pretty much unheard of in British politics and would quite handily make reform the best funded political party in the country by a march. In an interview on GB News after the Florida trip, Farage quibbled with the amount, but seemed quietly confident in the billionaire's support.

[Richard Tice]

That hundred million story, I mean, where the Sunday Times got that from? I have no idea. Probably some bloke.

[Joe Mulholl]

How much will it be then?

[Richard Tice]

Probably some bloke down the pub or in the pub all the time. Well, I do keep my ears open, you know, it's very important. Look, there are two things we talked about. Number one, what really fascinated me were the margins by which Trump won in the seven key swing states. And the person behind that was one Elon Musk. I spent an hour going through with him what his strategy was, how he got new voters registered that weren't on the electoral register, how he used various tech tools to get out the vote on the day. There's some revolutionary stuff here and I'm pledged to professionalizing reform. I took copious notes yesterday. I've learned a huge. And he will help X will help help reform UK at the election coming up. He's already given me considerable help with targeting voters who, understanding the process from start to finish, reaching disaffected communities who frankly feel there's no point voting for anybody. But just to get them to agree with you or to like me on Tick Tock or whatever, that just isn't enough. You know, you've got to get them registered, you've got to know who they are, you've got to get them to vote. Inevitably, given all the press stories, we did discuss much. Now, that's a negotiation we would go back and have again. He is not against giving us money. He hasn't fully decided whether he will. If he does, it wouldn't be anything like the ludicrous telephone numbers quoted in the Sunday Times. But the most important thing is this. This is what Musk said to me. He said, British politics now has a uni party. There is very little to choose between the Labour and Conservative parties. And he genuinely fears that, that the mother country of the English speaking world is frankly going down the tubes. And he agrees Britain needs reform. He is right behind me.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I wonder if Elon was like, it kind of sounds to me like, and I could be wrong, but that he basically was teaching Nigel Farage how to reach the like, crypto, like Call of Duty, demographics.

[Richard Tice]

Yeah.

[Host (Jake)]

Cause I must admit I didn't really follow much of the. The US election that closely. Is any of that true about Musk being instrumental in winning the seven swing states and getting out the vote to people who weren't on the electoral register. Is any of that ring a bell?

[Co-host (Jake)]

All I know is that he held like, you know, like a Journey to the Stars kind of contest where he was like, you could win a million dollars by registering to vote. He did something that, like, seemed kind of illegal.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, he tried his best and it's questionable whether he made made the difference, but he certainly tried to put his thumb on the scale.

[Co-host (Jake)]

He probably made more of a difference turning Twitter more conspiratorial and ostensibly like right wing like that probably had a larger effect than any kind of on the ground sort of strategy he was doing in any of those swing states. Because I feel like he's kind of a lazy guy. You know, I don't imagine that he's going out and knocking on doors, but he's probably saying if you use these buzzwords and talk about crypto and talk about this, that and the other thing, you, you know, get these guys excited about voting for you.

[Host (Jake)]

That's my impression as well. It doesn't feel like Met Musk is like actually much of a, like electoral whiz, but he's, you know, he's incredibly good at just bringing a lot of publicity to something, to whatever he's interested in. As we'll find out in this next section. Grooming Gangs at the turn of the new year, Musk began posting dozens of tweets about the UK grooming gang scandal. Now, that story in itself is a very serious and very complicated topic, which I feel I I can't really do justice in just a few minutes here. I have written a piece for friend of the show David Farrier's site, Webworm, explaining the history in a lot more detail. So if you'd like to read my full thoughts on the issue, please follow that link in the episode description for now, here's the very short version. Grooming gangs became national news over here when the Times ran a series of high profile stories in 2011. These stories drew attention to several court cases across northern England and the Midlands in which two or more adult men participated in an exploitation scheme where they befriended underage girls, some as young as 12, before brutalising, raping and trafficking them. The inquiries and reports that followed revealed serious failings of police, social services and care home staff to protect the underage victims. There are countless chilling accounts from these girls and their families of being ignored, brushed off if they attempted to report their abuse, and in some cases actually arrested for defending themselves. The victims continue to be failed. Today, the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse, a far reaching national inquiry investigating institutional responses to the issue, published a report in 2022 outlining 20 recommendations to prevent further safeguarding failures in the future. It has yet to have had any of them implemented. Nonetheless, it isn't serious concern for abused children, which keeps this topic at a constant background hum in far right discussion online which is presumably how Elon Musk stumbled across it a good 10 years after it became a major news story here. It's the fact that in the most infamous grooming gang news stories like Rochdale and Rotherham, the perpetrators were mostly from a British Asian Muslim background, while their victims mostly weren't. Now, I want to make it as clear as possible, this was a huge news story in this country in the 2010s. Every time there were new convictions, they were front page news. There were several primetime documentaries and even a BBC drama. Elon Musk, however, had only just heard about it, and so he fell victim to a common trap that ensnares people who think of them as highly intelligent. The understanding that if you didn't already know something, it must have been deliberately hidden from you. Musk began posting incessantly about the topic, implying that there was an ongoing legacy media cover up for which he implied the current Labour government was responsible. In particular, he singled out the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, who he said was deeply complicit in the mass rapes in exchange for votes. In other posts, he began to outline this theory in more detail.

[Co-host (Jake)]

In the uk, serious crimes such as rape require the Crown Prosecution Service's approval for police to charge suspects. Who was the head of the CPS when rape gangs were allowed to exploit young girls without facing justice? Keir Starmer, 2008-2013.

[Host (Jake)]

Now, I want to stress again that the British state's response to the victims of these cases was unequivocally abysmal. In some cases, it probably verged into complicity. So I don't want to defend the British state in this regard. And if that was all that Elon Musk and Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage were saying about this, then that the state had failed, then we'd be on the same side. But they're not, so we're not. And if you understand how the grooming gang's story broke in the first place, you'll understand why this framing in particular is really absurd. The whole reason the Times broke the story about grooming gangs in 2011 was because their chief investigative reporter, Andrew Norfolk, picked up on a significant number of prosecutions for this specific kind of child sexual exploitation. Now, I don't know enough about the inner workings of the Crown Prosecution Service to know if Starmer should get the credit for this, but it happened during his tenure, which is the exact thing that Musk is trying to condemn him for. Musk also singled out Jess Phillips, a Labour mp, and the parliamentary undersecretary of State for safeguarding and violence against women and girls after it was revealed that she'd rejected a request by Oldham Council for a government inquiry into grooming gangs in their town. Musk called her a wicked witch and a rape genocide apologist.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Oh, Jesus.

[Joe Mulholl]

Jesus Christ.

[Host (Jake)]

I know. Yeah, yeah. Actually emerged that she, I think, after his comments, needed to get, like, extra protection because it had just kind of. Yeah. Put such a target on her back, basically.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

God, talk about a guy who should kill himself.

[Host (Jake)]

Filling in for Liv.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Just like, what are you doing?

[Joe Mulholl]

What did you do?

[Co-host (Jake)]

Like these horrible things cloaked in, like, wizard of Oz insults. Like, who is this guy?

[Host (Jake)]

I know. Wicked witch.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, she's a wicked witch.

[Joe Mulholl]

Witch.

[Co-host (Jake)]

A very wicked witch. Flying monkeys.

[Host (Jake)]

Well, I guess. I guess it's maybe just his, like, sneaky way of. He wants to say bitch. Right?

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, of course, yeah. Piece of fucking shit. These guys are shit. They're not.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

I guess that. But that would. Why add wicked? Because then it's bicked bitch.

[Co-host (Jake)]

He's a child.

[Host (Jake)]

Farage, when asked about these remarks in a radio call in, defended.

[Joe Mulholl]

Matt, Sophie is in Manchester.

[Richard Tice]

You're through to Nigel Farage, Sophie, go ahead.

[Host (Jake)]

Hi, good morning. Thank you for taking my call. So this is just a quick one. It's kind of around the topic that you're speaking about anyway, so considering Nigel Farage that you've spoken yourself about being on being attacked online and feeling unsafe, do you plan to condemn Elon Musk in any way about his comments attacking Labour's just Phillips?

[Richard Tice]

If he was. If he was inciting violence, then that would be going beyond the line at which free speech is acceptable. Now, using language such as rape, genocide, apologist. The ice is pretty thin. It's very, very strong language and it offends many. But then free speech should be able to offend many. And Sophie, I do not believe so.

[Joe Mulholl]

It'S okay to cause offence to knowingly cause.

[Richard Tice]

Of course. That's what free speech, Nick. That is what free speech is. We should be allowed. You should be allowed. I should be allowed to say things that others find offensive. The presenter on after you says many things that people find offensive. But hey, I wouldn't. I might. I might not like what he says, but I wouldn't want him shut down. Right.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Hmm. Interesting. Nigel Farage is a stupid cunt who should fall backwards into a canal and choke on mud.

[Host (Jake)]

Well, I may not like what you say, Julian, but I think he should.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Fall backwards into a canoe.

[Host (Jake)]

No, I mean, it's such a cop out, isn't It. It's such a cop out just to be like, well, he should be allowed to say. And it's like, yeah. People aren't saying, you know, do you want Elon Musk arrested for saying that? They're saying, do you condemn it? Which he's perfectly capable of understanding when it's someone like Tommy Robinson.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, exactly. He loves to just mincing little fucking bitch.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah. If Tommy Robinson had come to the table with $100 million and a strategy how to recruit more young broccoli heads to your party then. By the way, I'm gonna be using that word, like, all the time, ever since I learned it from Liv yesterday.

[Host (Jake)]

Is that a generational slur?

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yes, yes.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

That's what they look.

[Co-host (Jake)]

That's the kids. That's the white T shirt, black sweatpants. The broccoli heads, the chains, the, you know, the bad attitudes.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

There is a broccoli uprising and it is not good.

[Host (Jake)]

We need to get them back for choige. To be honest, I've never recovered Chuggy. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Mulholl]

Chuggy.

[Host (Jake)]

Is that how you pronounce?

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

No, no, no, no, no. Definitely say choigi. It must.

[Host (Jake)]

I don't have TikTok. I've only just, like, read it. I've never heard it's pronounced.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

That's not how you say TikTok. It's.

[Co-host (Jake)]

You can't get TikTok in the UK.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

It's Tyke Toyk.

[Host (Jake)]

No, you know, yeah, that's true. Actually. You guys wouldn't know what it's called anymore.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, it's. No, we got it back. We got it back right away.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

No, no, you can't fucking install. You can't download and install it.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Oh, you can't.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

If you have it, you can keep it, but you can't update it currently. Oh, so you cannot install it fresh or reinstall.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I've been grandfathered in. I've grandfathered into TikTok, which is good because I like to watch guys out in the woods. They make a fire in a tree stump and they put a pot on it and they cook their meat and they make meals out of the forest. They make meals out of the forest with their dogs. Kind of content that I watch on TikTok. And that's 10 star citizen videos.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

This bricks you up. This gets you going wild.

[Host (Jake)]

TikTok. I mean, honestly, in this field, I really should be on TikTok, because, you know, how else are you going to know if you're, like, researching conspiracy theories and online radicalization, you need to. You need to be on those kind of platforms.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I love TikTok for the exact opposite. There's no radicalization there for me. If I go to YouTube, it's like, gun, video gun.

[Host (Jake)]

It's like trying to radicalize you constantly.

[Co-host (Jake)]

And, and like comedians, like stand up comedians who are just like, secretly, like Trump supporters. But I go to TikTok and it's like this Canadian guy out in the woods, she's like, hey, buddy, I'm going to make some tea and play some Sega Genesis. Would you like to come with me?

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Wait, what?

[Co-host (Jake)]

Like, I literally found a guy whose whole thing. He lives in a cabin in the woods and he creates these like, ASMR videos that are kind of like geared towards 90s children. So he's like, hey, buddy, I'm going to cook my favorite meal. Classic macaroni cheese.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

My God. Wait, so you found a wooden that cooks, that eats Mac and cheese and Mac and cheese.

[Co-host (Jake)]

And then he's like, I'm going to play some NHL 96, buddy, come with me.

[Richard Tice]

I see.

[Co-host (Jake)]

And then, and then at the end of the videos, and then at the.

[Joe Mulholl]

Video, she's like, please, please enjoy yourselves.

[Co-host (Jake)]

He's wonderful. He's got a big mustache, long hair. Like, he kind of looks like Travis, actually. In fact, it might be Travis.

[Host (Jake)]

Travis alter ego.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

I don't know, I'm a little suspicious. This sounds like some sort of weird, like, social media hypnotism program designed to.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Like, could very well be American men.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Like, hey, I'm just gonna play some Jurassic park on the CRT television. Nothing, nothing strange about that.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Have you seen the video? He literally has a Jurassic. He literally did that in the video the other night.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Oh, my God.

[Host (Jake)]

No, I think you're right. Yeah. He's creating hundreds of Manchurian candidates out there.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah. The fantasy that you can be like a woodsman but also spend all your time playing video games is like, it's really cornered Jake. Perfect.

[Co-host (Jake)]

The Tommy problem.

[Host (Jake)]

Farage was more than happy to ride the wave of renewed attention on the grooming gang's issue, sparked by Musk making a public call for a new inquiry in Parliament. He outlined why exactly he thought all the previous inquiries into the issue weren't good enough. They didn't focus on the issue as an explicitly racial one.

[Richard Tice]

The Prime Minister is doing his best to tell us there's been an inquiry. The J inquiry. Well, there has, and it's 459 pages long. Grooming gangs are not mentioned once. Rotherham is literally mentioned once in passing. And the scope of that inquiry was like a shotgun. It was to cover a whole range of areas in which children were being abused. What we need and what we're calling for is a rifle shot inquiry, one that looks specifically at to what extent were gangs of Pakistani men raping young white girls.

[Co-host (Jake)]

All right, that's enough.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

What a piece of shit.

[Host (Jake)]

I know. I mean, like, it just kind of gives the whole game away, really, that statement, because it makes exactly clear that they do not care about any of this type of abuse if it's perpetrated by white guys, which it has been in several cities, do you know, or against non white victims, which, again, yeah, it's often assumed, I think, that all of the victims of this were white because they're frequently not named because they're underage. But there have been several cases where, like, researchers have confirmed that's not the case. So, yeah, it just could not be clearer that, yeah, he doesn't care about those victims, he doesn't care about those perpetrators. It's just this very specific kind of abuse that he thinks deserves an inquiry and everyone else can. Can get lost.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, I'm imagining a different type of rifle shot.

[Host (Jake)]

But unfortunately for Farage, the issue had brought up another related matter that he and Musk saw less eye to eye on Tommy Robinson. Throughout his posting crusade over grooming gangs, Musk continuously reiterated his support for Robinson. He shared Robinson's latest documentary, Silenced, in which Robinson alleged the result of his libel case had been the work of a vast, politically motivated judicial conspiracy.

[Richard Tice]

The documentary you're about to watch is the most important documentary I've ever made. This story is far bigger than Tommy Robinson. This is about the weaponization and the politicization of these buildings, court buildings across the west, the Royal Courts of Justice. Ironically named these buildings have been weaponized and used against members of the public to destroy them if they speak out. From Donald Trump to Steve Bannon to Gert Fielders to Marie Le Pen to Katie Hopkins, that's what's happening.

[Co-host (Jake)]

He's like, terrible injustice has been done. I'm about to name some of the worst people to do it in the world right now. Yeah, he's like good people getting slandered. Horrible person. Horrible person number two. A worse person.

[Host (Jake)]

Musk also quoted a post by an account called Inevitable west, which read, tommy.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Robinson was smeared as a far right racist for exposing the mass betrayal of English girls by the state. The nation owes him an apology.

[Host (Jake)]

Musk added this commentary.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Why is Tommy Robinson in a solitary confinement prison for telling the truth? He should be freed. And those who covered up this travesty should take his place in that cell.

[Host (Jake)]

In fact, it seems that Musk's support for Robinson is so passionately felt that he's agreed to pay his legal fees. At least this was the claim made by the administrator of Robinson's telegram channel, which they gave as the reason for shutting down a crowdfunding campaign. Campaign. Given how well known Farage's distaste for Robinson is, it was inevitable that he would be asked about this relationship. When the question came at Reforms East Midlands conference, he attempted to answer diplomatically.

[Richard Tice]

Do you worry that the party pooper.

[Joe Mulholl]

Could be the person who may be your biggest savior?

[Richard Tice]

A week ago, Elon Musk, you called him a bloody hero on Boxing Day. You said you were expecting a reasonably sized donation.

[Host (Jake)]

Do you still think that he's saying.

[Richard Tice]

Remarks now attacking Britain supporting Tommy Robinson.

[Host (Jake)]

Is he now a political kryptonite to you?

[Richard Tice]

Well, he's attacking the leadership of Britain. I mean, he's saying Britain's been terribly badly led and that the grooming scandal, the mass rape scandal, which has resurfaced, and transcripts of what was said in court have been online and I recommend you at home, don't read them, you won't sleep at night. And so, yes, he is attacking the leadership in Britain. He's very supportive of me, he's very supportive of the party. He sees Robinson as one of these people that fought against the grooming gangs. But of course, the truth is Tommy Robinson is in prison, not for that, but for contempt of court for the third occasion. But equally, there are people in Britain who think that Robinson is a political prisoner. That's the narrative that he's pushed out. That's how he earns his living. But it isn't quite true.

[Host (Jake)]

Musk's response came a day later. The billionaire posted.

[Co-host (Jake)]

The Reform Party needs a new leader. Farage doesn't have what it takes. Yeah, what a fickle bitch.

[Host (Jake)]

I know, right? Hours after this, Musk publicly responded to a post asking him whether he thought Rupert Lowe, Reform's MP for Great Yarmouth, should take over the party instead.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I've not met Rupert Lowe, but his statements online that I have read so far make a lot of sense.

[Joe Mulholl]

Sense?

[Host (Jake)]

Suddenly it seemed that a hundred million dollar donation everyone had been so breathlessly talking about was going to remain all talk, at least for as long as Farage stayed in charge. The politician put on a brave face when asked about the falling out in an interview. But it was clearly a little embarrassing, having been going all over the airwaves in previous Days to talk about what good chums the two were.

[Joe Mulholl]

We all know about the dispute that's been going on between you and Elon Musk.

[Richard Tice]

What would Donald Trump. Oh, I've been a friend of Donald Trump's for a decade. I've been very supportive of him. He's been very supportive of me. I can't see that changing for a moment. And interestingly, despite what Elon said when he woke up the other morning, you know, that I was no good or whatever, I mean, I'm sure he's the man to lead the party. He's not alone with that opinion, clearly. But, you know, and then yesterday, he retweeted me twice with positive messages, so, I don't know. You catching up with him lately? Later this month? Yes.

[Joe Mulholl]

How long are you going over for the inauguration?

[Richard Tice]

I'll be over for a good sort of four or five days. And, of course, look, I have no desire to go to war with Elon Musk, and I'm not going to, and I haven't done. I'm a huge admirer of him. I think he's a heroic figure. I think the sort of tech changes that he's bringing to the world are incredible. I think buying Twitter actually has bought a lot of free speech back, even if some people don't like what's being said. Well, you know what? Tough. And, you know, there is no way. There is no way I'm gonna fall out. But equally, Nick, I wasn't gonna be moved.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I don't know what he was thinking when he woke up on the wrong side of the bed the other day. It was not something. Not like him, really, to sort of insult. I'm not going to read too much into it. He said very nice things in the days following, Varina retweeted very nice comments. So, yeah, Yeah. I mean, you know, so sad.

[Host (Jake)]

I know. It's so embarrassing having to be like, well, he retweeted me after that, just.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Like, yeah, he texted me back. He texted me back. He didn't leave me on read.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

It feels like Elon Musk is sort of like, using this Trumpian technique of coalition building, which is like, simply, you know, there are people who are greatest people ever, and they're heroes and they're wonderful.

[Richard Tice]

Who are the people who are aligned with me? And there are people who are awful.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Who are cancers in society who are.

[Richard Tice]

Not aligned with me or disagree with.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Me or speak against me in any way. And, you know, it's proved pretty successful for Trump.

[Host (Jake)]

So I guess maybe Elon Musk is.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Trying a similar tactic.

[Host (Jake)]

In my interview with Joe from Hope Not Hate, he mentioned that while Musk's withdrawal of support was an obvious blow to reform, it had offered Farage another golden opportunity to emphasize himself as a sensible moderate.

[Joe Mulholl]

The big question is, how useful is this Tommy Robinson split issue for Farage now? In one sense, it seems to have scuppered or briefly scuppered, a relationship with Elon Musk in America. Elon Musk came out and criticized Farage for not standing up for Tommy Robinson, for example. And there was all this talk in the British media about $100 million going into reforms coffers. So in the first instance, it was extremely embarrassing for Farage when Musk then drops him and says he hasn't got what it takes to run reform. It's hugely embarrassing and it, of course, was very amusing. However, Farage has taken what he can out of that. The thing that he's got out of that is he's used as an ability to tell everyone who will listen to any media interview that he's had about this is that I'm not like Tommy Robinson. He has used it to place that clear water between him, himself and someone who is demonstrably understood to be an extremist. People are less sure about Farage, but the vast majority of people across Britain, polling is really clear, think that he's an extremist. I would say also the polling is pretty clear that the vast majority of people think Reform are far right as well. And that's the challenge that Farage has, is trying to prove to those people that he's not. And he's using Tommy Robinson. So in. In some ways, as embarrassing as the whole Elon Musk debacle has been, it has allowed him to really put his flag in the ground and say, I'm. I'm a centrist, I a moderate. Of course, the truth is, he's not. But at least in the way he's presenting his image to the electorate, he's found it really useful, I think.

[Host (Jake)]

Sure enough, here he is on ITV's this Morning, just the other day, actually pretending to have concerns with Robinson's approach to Islam.

[Richard Tice]

My reservation about Robinson is that the way he talks about Islam, it's as if he wants to go to war with everybody of the Islamic faith. He's a long criminal record. All I've said is, look, let Mr. Robinson do what he does. I'm running a political party. We intend to win the next general election. He would not be an asset to us.

[Host (Jake)]

So it seems that despite Farage's commitment to free speech when defending Musk's comments, there are some ideas so beyond the pale that he wants nothing to do with them. It's certainly interesting that his personal line is Robinson's statements about Islam, given he's got such a colourful history on that topic himself. Take in 2013, for instance, when he said that while some Muslims integrate into Britain, others are coming here to, quote, take us over over or a few years later, when he described Muslims as a migrant group that fundamentally wants to change who we are and what we are, he continued this theme of Islam as a fundamental threat to British identity last election, consistently referring to Muslim independent political candidates as representing sectarian politics attempting to take over, and told one interviewer that there were large numbers of Muslim young people who loathe British values. It might not be war with everyone of the Islamic faith, but it hardly reads as friendly either. Naming the problem it is clearly important to reform's ambitions that they shed any kind of association with extremism and they've shown that they're willing to fight for it. Last year they even managed to force an institution as big as the BBC to back down and apologise for having referred to them as far right in their reporting, a label which Richard Tice called defamatory and libel. But because I'm the bravest and most principled reporter in the whole world, I'm going to do it anyway. For one thing, not to pull rank, but I do literally have a PhD on the topic of the far right. And so I know for a fact that it's an accurate label here. And I'm not the only expert to say so.

[Joe Mulholl]

If you look at this kind of notion that the far right is an umbrella term split in two that has the radical right on one side and the extreme right on the other. And the big difference here is that ostensibly, ostensibly the extreme far right is your fascist groups that that reject democracy in all of its forms, whereas the radical right rejects the essence of liberal democracy, which is essentially popular sovereignty, majority rule, etc fundamental elements of liberal democracy, that is, is what the radical right rejects. And there is endless evidence of Nigel Farage and and reform rejecting institutions that defend liberal democracy, calling for pulling out of legislation that protects universal human rights rights, rejection and leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, but also undermining institutions of democracy. Farage has his own history, as you know, his close ally Donald Trump in America, of regularly disputing and questioning electoral results. He did it in Peterborough in 2019. You know, he did it in Oldham in 2015, he did it in Rochdale just last year. So all of this again is this kind of sense, these undermining institutions of liberal democracy. And then of course, most importantly here is that the far right, when you think about the far right, they define themselves as an in group and an out group. There is an out group which is an enemy and they are an in group which is at threat. And of course for reform, that's currently asylum seekers, it's Muslims, is Islam more general? And so you kind of put all these things together and you say they're comfortably radical right.

[Host (Jake)]

Calling reform far right isn't just accurate, though, it's important. Farager's whole political career has been a masterclass in shifting the Overton window steadily rightwards, constantly pushing the envelope of acceptable politics. With reform UK a serious electoral threat, Labour's rhetoric on immigration has become increasingly extreme. In November last year, Starmer gave a speech on immigration which sounded curiously farage.

[Richard Tice]

Like as the ONS sets out, nearly 1 million people came to Britain in.

[Host (Jake)]

The year ending June 2023.

[Richard Tice]

That is four times the migration levels compared with 2019. Time and again the Conservative Party promised.

[Host (Jake)]

They would get the numbers down.

[Richard Tice]

Time and again they failed.

[Joe Mulholl]

And now the chorus of excuses has begun.

[Richard Tice]

We heard that from the leader of the Opposition yesterday. But what we didn't hear, what the British people are owed, is an explanation. Because a failure on this scale isn't just bad luck. It isn't a global trend or taking.

[Joe Mulholl]

Your eye off the ball.

[Richard Tice]

No, this is a different order of failure. This happened by design, not accident. Policies were reformed deliberately to liberalize immigration. Brexit was used for that purpose to turn Britain into a one nation experiment in open borders.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Wow.

[Host (Jake)]

Right?

[Co-host (Jake)]

It's crazy. It's, it's.

[Host (Jake)]

Look at my left wing party dog.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Well, I mean the same thing happened here where, where the effort to own or criticize the, the far right party, you know, by the quote unquote Liberal Party is to, well, they haven't delivered on. The American people owe an explanation, are owed an explanation for why they failed at these like horrible policies and we're going to do it better and like insulting them or criticizing them and not being able to achieve these like horrible policy things. They themselves are being sort of pulled further right and, and, and trying to get a piece of, of that like, you know, that right wing pie, it's so fucked up. I mean we're seeing the same thing here.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

I remember seeing a tweet recently where whereas, like, you know, fucking. It may seem like Trump is deporting a lot of illegals, but Joe Biden deported twice as many illegals in the same period or something. And it's like, dude, what are we doing?

[Host (Jake)]

Race to the bottom way to. Yeah. Create that as being like the only metric of good and successful politics. I don't know.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yes.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah. Our Secretary of State for Health as well just came out recently with saying this is again another Labour politician saying something ludicrous where he's like, the NHS is anti white or something. Anti white. The kind of open. A deliberate experiment with open borders like this is like language that I think genuinely the Conservatives would have found extreme 10 years ago. Do you know?

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, yeah, just outflank Nigel Farage to the right. That's really, really smart.

[Host (Jake)]

Now I know what the sensible argument for this tactic is. Labour have to act tough on immigration in order to stop the far right from gaining ground, particularly in key seats in the post industrial North. The problem is, I've been hearing this argument from Labour literally all my life. Every Labour leader has had their little tough on immigration moment and as far as I can tell, the far right are more powerful than ever. The liberal left media in this country, such as it is, is fond of acting completely helpless as the far right keeps gaining ground, but the truth is they've helped Farage become mainstream every step of the way. One of the ways they've done this is by using euphemistic language about his positions. Terms like national Conservative or the even more aggravating pop populist, which Dr. Aurelian Monden, a senior lecturer in politics at the University of Bath, argues has been a gift to the far right globally.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Using populist instead of more accurate but also stigmatizing terms such as far right or racist acts as a key legitimizer of far right politics. It lends these parties and politicians a veneer of democratic support through the etymological link to the people and erases their deeply elitist nature. What this points to is that the processes of mainstreaming and normalization of far right politics have much to do with the mainstream itself, if not more than with the far right. In this case, the mainstreaming process has involved platforming, hyping and legitimizing far right ideas, while seemingly opposing them and denying responsibility in the process.

[Host (Jake)]

Even if reform UK don't identify as far right, for some bizarre reason, people with unquestionably extreme views seem to be convinced the party is their political home. In the general election last Year, candidates for reform were found posting memes promoting the great replacement theory, liking posts that made claims like the white race has achieved more than all the other races combined or themselves offered up fascinating historical takes like Britain would be in a far better state today had we taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality. The party later claimed that this had simply been a vetting problem that was now fixed. But it seems that vetting problem made it all the way to the top since their former deputy leader Ben Habib made the chilling argument in April last year that asylum seekers coming to the UK via boat should be left to drive drown. So at some point, you know, the Royal Navy or any other body force, they're going to have to pick these people out of the water or off a dinghy. That's not what seaworthy. Okay. At that point what do they do with them? Do they take them back to France or not? What do they do with them?

[Richard Tice]

The presumption in your, in your question.

[Host (Jake)]

Is that we have a duty of.

[Richard Tice]

Care to people who are seeking to enter.

[Host (Jake)]

Our duty of care to people drowning in the Channel.

[Richard Tice]

Yes. Well, we only by the way, under.

[Co-host (Jake)]

International Law, Article 98 of the UN Convention of Law of the sea, we.

[Richard Tice]

Only have an obligation to save people if it's reasonable to do so. And under the same international law we have the right to turn people back who are seeking to enter our illegally.

[Host (Jake)]

I understand how, I love it turning people back at the point when they refuse to be turned back or they just, someone just puts a knife into the dinghy and it starts deflating or they jump into the water because they've been told that's what you do and then you'll put be picked up. You know as well as I do anybody who has ever been on a boat will know that the rules of the sea are very clear. You have to save life where you can save life. That is what.

[Richard Tice]

Only if it's reasonable to do so.

[Host (Jake)]

It will be reasonable to do so because there'll be people drown. I don't think it's reasonable. Are you genuinely saying the reform UK policy is we will let people drown to make a point? Because I think that's what you're saying.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Well, sounds like that's what he's saying.

[Joe Mulholl]

Yep.

[Host (Jake)]

This conversation by the way took place the day after five people, one of them a four year old girl, drowned trying to cross the Channel. So yeah, just a particularly terrible time to make a horrible argument like that.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Well, he looks like a horrible guy and he's got his eye, his Eye ear pods in. He's got glasses and he's making a bad case to let people drown.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah. Now, to be fair as I possibly can, Habib, that man who was just speaking, is no longer in the party. He quits in the vent, citing fundamental differences with Farage. And it seems there's some kind of drama going on there. It seems he's done a lot of interviews about it, but I honestly don't care to, don't care to find out.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Perhaps even Nigel Farage was like, maybe we should pull people out of the water. And he's like, no, I'm sticking to my guns on this.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah. Or Farage was probably just like, this guy's a liability, right. He makes us look terrible. But no matter what Farage says about maintaining a firewall against the fascist or white nationalist right, they just keep doing joining. It's clear that many of them view reform as an opportunity to imitate Farage's own political strategy and keep dragging mainstream political discourse further rightward. Gregory Davis, writing for Hope Not Hate, reported that Mark Collett, the neo Nazi leader of the white nationalist group Patriotic Alternative, had urged his followers to start covertly joining reform as the party expanded last year. I don't think genuine ethno nationalism at.

[Richard Tice]

The ballot box now has a hope in hell's chance because anyone that goes.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Up against reform is going to be completely squished. Nationalists have to now start thinking outside the box.

[Host (Jake)]

We have to start doing different things.

[Richard Tice]

If we try to take on reform.

[Co-host (Jake)]

You know, it's going to be like.

[Joe Mulholl]

Going up against the sort of, you know, 600 pound gorilla in the room.

[Richard Tice]

It's not going to work.

[Co-host (Jake)]

They are going to hoover up the.

[Host (Jake)]

Anti immigration vote, anti establishment vote.

[Richard Tice]

The fact that fact is, I think nationalists now, if they want to play a role on an electoral level, the.

[Host (Jake)]

Best thing they could do if they're.

[Richard Tice]

Not face out is engage in some.

[Host (Jake)]

Kind of entry ism of the Reform Party. It would be brilliant if the Reform.

[Richard Tice]

Party ended up getting sort of, you know, 80 something MPS at the next general election.

[Host (Jake)]

And 10, 15% of them were sort.

[Joe Mulholl]

Of closet ethnonationalists who could help drag.

[Host (Jake)]

The party even further in the right.

[Richard Tice]

Direction when they have a more meaningful parliamentary group. But I think now nationalism has to really think outside the box and we have to make the best of this situation.

[Host (Jake)]

And the best of this situation is.

[Joe Mulholl]

To keep undermining the Conservative Party.

[Richard Tice]

Hope people see labor for what it is and hope the instability in the.

[Host (Jake)]

Labour Party caused the by the schism.

[Richard Tice]

Over Israel Palestine breaks that party down.

[Joe Mulholl]

As the Tory party has been broken down.

[Richard Tice]

So I still think there is hope, but I think we have to be.

[Joe Mulholl]

Very clever at how we approach this.

[Host (Jake)]

It seems that at least one person was listening. In early August, Reform hired a man called David Haydn Milakovic as an organiser for Staffordshire. Haydn was known to local antifascist organisers, having given a speech at a patriotic alternative anti migrant protest in March 2023 and leafleting with some of their members soon after. Davis writes.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

As revealed by the anti fascist research.

[Richard Tice]

Group Red Flare, Hayden Milakovic has also.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Operated a TikTok account under his own.

[Richard Tice]

Name in which he posted a string of highly dubious looking videos. The account has since been deleted, but.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

The thumbnails and hashtags used beneath leave.

[Richard Tice]

Little doubt that the content is anti Semitic in nature.

[Host (Jake)]

And I've actually included a screenshot just so you can see exactly how little doubt is left that the content is anti Semitic in. Do you guys want to describe that to me?

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, there's a sad small child's dirty face right next to the words war. And above that are the words Jews own governments. Beneath it we have some hashtags. Truthseeker, Jew, 9 11, CIA, viral facts, migrants, war, USA world order, economy, twin towers. 9 11. Rabbi, wake up.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, so it's very difficult to think of an innocent explanation for what that video might contain.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Yeah, these are just the thoughts that go through my head. It's, you know, I wake up in the morning, I go 9 11, Jew rabbi. You know, this is just kind of 9 11. I'm not all that surprised to read some of this stuff. This is, you know, just kind of a day in the life, you know.

[Host (Jake)]

That'S just your internal monologue.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Follow the money.

[Host (Jake)]

It would be nice to think that the end of Musk and Farage's little lovin signals the end of reform getting any kind of big funding. But sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. While the party's hardline stance on immigration is often the material that gets them the most media play, many of their politicians views on climate change are also far outside the mainstream political consensus of the last 10 years. Rupert Lowe, for instance, who Musk nodded to as a potential leader, tweeted this.

[Co-host (Jake)]

In 2020, the cult of climate change marches on with no definitive evidence to support or deny the factual accuracy of their assertions. They can't deny it. Funny.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, that's actually a really good point. That's really bizarre wording. Why would they have Definitive evidence to deny the factual accuracy of their assertions. That doesn't make sense. Richard Tice in particular has been extremely vocal on the topic, repeatedly denying in media appearances the extra CEO has made any impact on the planet. And you're the only party who doesn't seem to be concerned about the future of the planet. That's something that does affect young people. We know that. It's at the forefront of the minds of young voters.

[Richard Tice]

Absolutely. And here's the point, right? Net zero will make zero difference to climate change, as confirmed by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That says if you get to net zero tomorrow, it'll make no difference to the level of sea level rise for between 200 and 1,000 thousand years. Actually, what we need to do with climate change, of course, we all care about the environment of the planet. You need to adapt to it. The idea that you can stop the power of the sun or volcanoes is simply ludicrous. And anybody who thinks you can, frankly, you're misinformed.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, we need to kill people on boats trying to come over instead of trying to change the thing that's making the migrations.

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, when you put them side by side like that, it is just like so dark, isn't it? It's just like keep on just like pumping out CO2 and then, yeah, we'll just drown anybody who tries to escape the consequences of that. Now, it's not really the style of this podcast to debunk the stuff we cover line by line, as it would honestly take too much time here. Though I do think it's worth pointing out that literally every word out of Tice's mouth there was untrue. The IPCC in fact, said that reaching net zero emissions is the only way to stop climate change. And that while sea levels will rise regardless, they will rise much more if our emissions continue. Continue to increase. But despite being happy to use the prestige of scientific credentials when it sounds like they agree with him, Tice has an explanation for those who don't. They've all been paid off.

[Richard Tice]

There are very serious scientists who. Who agree with me. Yes. I mean, literally Nobel Prize winning professor of physics and hundreds of other serious scientists. And why would you put everything on in red when as you've just said, right, there's two sides to debate. But what's happened is we were basically smeared and labeled and suppressed in terms of having debate and just canceled. Why follow the money if you don't understand something, Follow the money. And if you, as a scientist wanted a research grant in the last 15 to 20 years. You had to toe the line, you had to buy the line and you get your research, research, grant and money talks. And when you let vested interests do that, it's truly shocking.

[Host (Jake)]

I agree. That's why I think it's worth noting how many big donors to Reform UK have vested interests in oil, gas or other highly polluting industries. According to Adam Barnett and Sam Bright, writing for D Smog, Reform received 2.3 million pounds from these donors in the period between the 2019 election and the start of the next one in 2024. Since then, the party has recruited the billionaire property tycoon Nick Candy as their treasurer.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Nick Candy?

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, yeah. If you also want to know a funny thing about him, he's. She may not have been famous for you guys, do you remember the pop star Holly Valance?

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

No, no, please, come on with this British.

[Host (Jake)]

Oh, well, she's married to him anyway.

[Joe Mulholl]

Oh, good.

[Host (Jake)]

Kandy boasted to the press in December last year.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

We have a number of billionaires prepared to donate to the party. Even the big Tory donors are to going calling me. A lot of people will join us. The movement has started, so doesn't that.

[Host (Jake)]

Just make you feel excited, guys, we've.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Got the best and brightest billionaires on our side. No, we have the good billionaires. Cool.

[Host (Jake)]

I've been researching the far right for long enough to know that it's never a bad bet. Staying pessimistic. I look at Labour winning the general election last year and get the same slightly uneasy feeling I did when Biden won in 2020. 2020. I was pleased, obviously, but the numbers themselves didn't exactly feel like the firm, lasting repudiation of the far right that I'd been hoping for. It's important not to give in to doomerism, particularly since it feels like a general atmosphere of political apathy and disengagement has been such fertile ground for far right politics in this country. But it's worth making an honest assessment of what use the normal antifascist strategies are for a party that theirs been so successfully mainstreamed. How, for example, do you deplatform a politician who's one of the most recognisable faces in British politics and is never off primetime TV or radio? I asked Joe what he thought we could practically do to prevent Reform's resistible rise. He gave a really thoughtful answer which outlined that we can't just focus on the party itself, but the wider conditions in this country that they continue to exploit.

[Joe Mulholl]

The fight against reform is a big One Right. And it's going to take huge amounts of, amounts of people. It's not going to be small groups of activists which we're going to need, which, you know, doing protests, etc. But this is going to be a national party that's going to be standing all over the country pushing divisive leaflets through the doors of communities that are already struggling and susceptible to this politics. And it's going to take a massive response. I think there's a few things. One is a shameless plug here. You know, Hope Not Hate is going to be campaigning all over the country over the coming five years. Going to be launching a big national anti reform campaign in the country. The coming months we're going to be giving speeches and talks around the country. But the key here is bringing together activists from over the sensible or the center left or left. Anyone who's just against reform that wants to come out and put a message of more progress and hope through the door, we're going to be organizing that all over the country. So do sign up to our newsletter as the shameless plug. But the other thing is the real thing that's necessary is the Labor Party or the current government is going to have to deal with the material needs of the, the communities that Farage is preying on. If the Labor Party in five years time we get to a situation where people don't feel better off, but they still don't have enough hospitals, schools, houses, jobs, you know, our wages are still stagnant, unemployment still all of these things, then Reform's job is 10 times easier. And so the other thing there is we need to be pressuring our MPs, we need to be pushing the government to turn around and say if you don't deal with these issues, you know, it's going to be super important that anti fascist and anti racists all organize over the next five years. But part of that organization needs to be pushing the Labour Party to deal with the problems. You know, the status quo is not going to work here. We need a vision of what a better Britain looks like that looks after people. So it's a two pronged. We need to marginalize reform, but we also need to give people hope. And a big chunk of that is going to be pushing our government to make sure that they can deal with the things that people really need.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, we're going to have to kidnap somebody that Cure Starmer cares about.

[Host (Jake)]

Now. Yeah, this seems like a sensible approach to me. But it is worth being realistic about the challenges the left in this country has been pretty comprehensively fragmented and marginalised in recent years. And looking at statements and actions by our Labour government, it doesn't seem like they're feeling a huge amount of pressure from that direction. It seems everyone on the liberal left kind of agrees that if we want to beat reform, we need to take a leaf out of Farage's book. But whereas many in Labour seems to think that means offering a watered down version of his anti immigration rhetoric and nationalist policies, I think we should be studying his career and learning what it looks like to effectively consolidate real political power outside of the mainstream.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

We love our Annie, don't we folks?

[Co-host (Jake)]

I'm noticing a parallel. I think that, you know, as, as conditions get increasingly difficult for your average person, the easy choice is to look to the party who blames it on somebody else, blames it on these factors that look like that. Hey, if you just get rid rid of it, if you just let these people drown in the fucking channel, your life is going to improve. It's easy. It's the easy way out. It's the easiest thing to do is to blame, is to blame it on, you know, somebody else and, and, and advertise a quick fix.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

It's amazing that Labor's like answer is not, hey, we should improve these conditions and work diligently to like show, you know, that we actually care about like the, the material needs of the people. And instead it's we need to get better at this blaming thing. Yeah, why aren't we blaming?

[Host (Jake)]

Yeah, they're just like the people love this blaming thing.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, people seem to love the blaming. Absolute dunces. God we are. Oh man, talk about the blind leading the blind. Between labor and the Democrats over here, it's just absolutely the dregs. Just pitiful. They should both be raised and I mean that actually could mean several different things. So. Yeah, raised.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Better by their parents.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Better by their parents. Hey, they should be carpet bombed into oblivion. Better by their parents.

[Co-host (Jake)]

I think we should start the Sonic 3 party here and in the UK the Sonic the Hedgehog party.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

I think this is what launched 8chan. What the fuck are you on about?

[Co-host (Jake)]

Sonic the Hedgehog Party. We are about moving fast. We are about collecting rings and we are about freeing animals.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

But more than anything we are about going to patreon.comqaa and signing up for five bucks a month to get access to all of our episodes, both the main ones and an extra premium every single week, all on the same feed. Go to patreon.comqaa and sign up now. With your parents.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Credit card rules and regulations do not apply. Do not sign up with your parents credit card and don't really listen to anything Julian says.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Except for one part, right?

[Joe Mulholl]

Except for one part.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Go to the patreon.com that is true. If you should do that and you should follow Travis.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

View what?

[Host (Jake)]

Okay.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Follow Annie. Annie Knk on Twitter. Right? This is something going on.

[Host (Jake)]

No. Follow me on Blue Sky. I don't post on Twitter.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

No, sorry.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Everybody's on Blue Sky. You've been left behind, having good times.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

The future. Not everyone.

[Co-host (Jake)]

Not everyone. Not me. I'm having a bad time there. Text. I text Julian on the side. I go. I hate this site.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Charcoal Sky. Red sky with the blood of our enemies. That's what I'm about.

[Co-host (Jake)]

You should start a new platform.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (Jake)]

Or you could. Yeah, bring some, bring some of that energy to Blue Sky. It's too nice. There it is.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

Anything you want to plug before we leave, Annie? Other than the shitty website that everyone should also destroy.

[Host (Jake)]

No, I'm. I'm quite proud of the article I wrote for Webworm about grooming gangs. So yeah, if you do want to understand more about the. Yeah. Ins and outs of that kind of scandal, then please do have a look there.

[Co-host (Annie Kelly)]

That's right. We'll have the link in the description. Will you take us out any. Will you give us a nice British.

[Host (Jake)]

Farewell listener until next week. May the deep dish bless you and keep you.

[Richard Tice]

We have auto keyed content based on your preferences.

[Host (Jake)]

Do you think that that's breaking down a bit with like the social media.

[Richard Tice]

And stuff that people are let. Like they're not going through the same.

[Host (Jake)]

Same channels as what they.

[Richard Tice]

They used to.

[Joe Mulholl]

Every time I tweet something and sometimes I'm a little bit mischievous, I think, well, this is going to get a reaction and they're looking for something in a tweet or an article or something on Facebook to, to pull you up on to, you know, to say, oh, look what Anderson said. When you've not said anything like it.

[Richard Tice]

You know, it's like a few weeks.

[Joe Mulholl]

Back somebody, some woman put on. On eggs. Women have put up with pregnancy and periods. What do men have to put up with? I says, well, men went to battle at Somme. You know, the point I was making is that men have died in their millions being slaughtered in wars and it's always men and it's always young workingclass men from villages like this that go and give their life up for country. The next minute people say no. Leander says he was in the Battle of the Somme. So I'm thinking to myself, have I got to explain every tweet I put out? Aren't you clever enough to understand what I'm saying?

[Richard Tice]

Yeah.

[Joe Mulholl]

That traditionally, and it's traditionally white, working class young lads, teenagers, that have gone and died for this country.

[Richard Tice]

Yeah.

[Joe Mulholl]

They've worked down the coal mines, they've worked in the fishing industry, they've worked in the. In the foundries, they've worked in the steel mills, they've done all this horrible jobs. Yeah. But when times are good, as they allegedly are now, they're overlooked.