A Government Whistleblower Trusts a Newsroom, Ends Up in Prison

Summary

Podcast Summary: Question Everything

Host: Brian Reed
Episode: A Government Whistleblower Trusts a Newsroom, Ends Up in Prison
Date: November 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the story of Reality Winner, a former NSA contractor turned whistleblower who leaked a classified document in 2017 revealing Russian interference in the U.S. election. The conversation—primarily between Winner and Ira Glass (host of This American Life)—explores Winner’s motivations, the trust she placed in journalists, the breakdown of that trust, the fallout from her leak, and her reflections on patriotism, incarceration, and the cost of telling the truth. The episode probes the moral ambiguities of whistleblowing and journalism, and the personal toll such actions can take.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy and Risks of Whistleblowers

• Historical Context: Brian Reed opens by referencing major American whistleblowers—Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning—and situates Reality Winner within this lineage.
  • "[Some] of the biggest turning points in our country's history have come thanks to whistleblowers who broke the law and risked everything..." (01:27)
• Winner’s Act: At 25, Winner leaked an NSA document about Russian attempts to hack U.S. election infrastructure.
• Consequence: She received the longest prison sentence ever imposed on a leak-related whistleblower—five years, serving four.

2. Winner’s Motivation and Hopes

• Truth and Media Bias: Winner’s central aspiration was for the public to see verified facts rather than partisan narratives.
  • "I just wanted people to see the truth for once and not what their relative media platform was going to tell them." — Reality Winner (02:10)
• Desire for National Response: She hoped the country would "protect itself" and that the leak would foster unity and informed debate.
  • "I had hoped that Americans would gain hope... [that] it would answer a question that was tearing the country in half..." — Reality Winner (06:42)

3. The Leaking Process & Interaction with the Intercept

• Why the Intercept: Winner believed the Intercept—famous for publishing Snowden’s revelations—would be both trustworthy and capable of handling the classified material responsibly.
  • "One of the reasons why I chose the Intercept is all of these guys had, like, NSA military intelligence backgrounds... I trusted these guys." — Reality Winner (20:22)
• Breakdown of Trust: The Intercept shared the document with the NSA to confirm authenticity, inadvertently exposing Winner as the leaker.
  • "The Intercept shared the document with the NSA to verify it. It turns out only six employees had printed it, and authorities were able to pretty quickly figure out who the leaker was." — Brian Reed (20:42)

4. Fallout: Arrest, Imprisonment, and Media Coverage

• Practical Fallout: Winner was arrested after the Intercept’s verification process led authorities to her.
• Media Sensationalism: Much of the discussion about her focused on her personal life rather than the content and stakes of her actions.
  • "The entire conversation became about who I was and how evil and insidious I was." — Reality Winner (12:29)
  • "That was like the first non-government hit piece on me that was so devastating..." — Reality Winner, on Inside Edition (25:16)
• Prison Life: Winner describes incarceration as traumatic, with emotional, physical, and social tolls.
  • "Going to court was traumatic. You are shackled hands and feet the entire day..." — Reality Winner (26:43)
  • "To this day I can't watch or read anything about myself...I start to shake violently. Because I just remember how hard those nights were..." (28:57)

5. Reflections on the Intercept and the Costs of Leaking

• Intercept’s Remediation: The parent company paid Winner’s legal fees but Winner acknowledges this was cold comfort, and annual legal meetings became a way to maximize that help.
  • "The parent company that owns the Intercept paid for my legal fees, and that's why I tried to have as many attorney meetings as possible." (21:27)
• Legal Proceedings: Winner describes learning about the Intercept's failures while in a broom closet designated as a secure space for attorney meetings.
  • "I was in a broom closet in the Augusta courthouse..." — Reality Winner (21:59)
• No Regrets—but Not the Outcome She Hoped For: Winner contends that her intention was never to avoid consequences but to spur genuine debate; she regrets unintentionally subjecting her family to hardship for negligible public good.
  • "I put my family through hell for nothing." — Reality Winner (14:38)

6. National Security, Patriotism, and Justice

• On the Law: Winner denounces the Espionage Act as "vague" and overly broad, stifling necessary nuance in the public interest argument.
  • "793E of the Espionage Act of 1917 is an unjust law because it is vague, it is broad, and it can be used however they want it to be used." — Reality Winner (32:11)
• Patriotism: Winner expresses a nuanced love for her country, arguing that real patriotism entails honest critique.
  • "Patriotism means loving something but still being able to criticize it... We were flawed from the start. We were built upon sin. And I think patriotism is trying to fix that original sin." — Reality Winner (39:29)

7. Personal Healing and the Memoir

• Process of Writing Her Story: Winner discusses her book as a difficult but ultimately empowering effort to reclaim the narrative, especially as a woman in military intelligence.
  • "Right now I'm starting to see that this is going to be one of the first and maybe the only narratives of a woman linguist associated with the war in Afghanistan..." — Reality Winner (33:37)
• Lingering Impact: The experience of being branded a traitor lingers, deeply affecting her self-identity and relationship with media.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:10 | Reality Winner | "I just wanted people to see the truth for once and not what their relative media platform was going to tell them." | | 06:02 | Reality Winner | "A million of us saw that document, and, like, a million of us were waiting for that one to get leaked." | | 12:29 | Reality Winner | "The entire conversation became about who I was and how evil and insidious I was." | | 14:38 | Reality Winner | "I put my family through hell for nothing." | | 20:22 | Reality Winner | "One of the reasons why I chose the Intercept is all of these guys had, like, NSA military intelligence backgrounds…I trusted these guys." | | 21:59 | Reality Winner | "I was in a broom closet in the Augusta courthouse because that became our Secured Compartmented Information facility, or a SCIF." | | 32:11 | Reality Winner | "793E of the Espionage Act of 1917 is an unjust law because it is vague, it is broad, and it can be used however they want it to be used." | | 39:29 | Reality Winner | "Patriotism means loving something but still being able to criticize it... We were flawed from the start... patriotism is trying to fix that original sin." |

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Background on Famous Whistleblowers and Winner's Leak: 01:27–05:00
• Ira Glass’s Interview with Reality Winner Begins: 05:15
  • Winner's intention behind leaking: 06:42–07:29
  • Hopes for public impact: 08:26–10:24
  • The Intercept’s role and missteps: 10:36–13:39
  • Fallout and regret: 13:39–15:39
  • Decision to leak and technical details: 15:39–17:52
• What Happened After the Leak (Arrest, Prison, Media): 20:00–29:14
• Legal Proceedings and the Espionage Act: 31:07–32:48
• Memoir Writing and Personal Reflection: 33:09–34:43
• Discussion of Role in Afghanistan as Linguist/Intelligence: 34:57–36:49
• Audience Questions: Patriotism and Regret: 38:51–39:47

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Flow & Tone

The episode maintains a candid, reflective tone—balancing Winner’s wry humor and raw vulnerability with Ira Glass’s curiosity and empathy. Reality Winner’s voice stands out as resilient, occasionally irreverent, and always clear-eyed about both her intentions and her regrets.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, deeply personal examination of whistleblowing’s dangers—not only the dramatic event itself but also the damaging aftermath for leakers, the often cavalier handling by media, and the high personal price exacted by a system that prizes order over truth. Winner’s account is a crucial, complex addition to the ongoing conversation about journalism, patriotism, and the ethics of exposure.

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Recommended for listeners interested in: whistleblower ethics, media responsibility, U.S. national security, and stories of ordinary people caught in extraordinary dilemmas.

Transcript

[Brian Reed]

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[Brian Reed]

Today on the show. A conversation with someone who lots of people view as a patriot and others see as a traitor.

Some of the biggest turning points in our country's history have come thanks to whistleblowers who broke the law and risked everything to get information out to the public. Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers revealing how leaders had misled the country about Vietnam. Edward Snowden exposed the government's vast surveillance of its own citizens. Chelsea Manning revealed human rights abuses by the U.S. including soldiers in an Army Apache helicopter shooting at Iraqi civilians and journalists because they allegedly mistook them for insurgents. And in 2017, a 25 year old NSA contractor, a linguist named Reality Winner, leaked proof that Russia had tried to break into US election systems.

[Reality Winner]

I just wanted people to see the truth for once and not what their relative media platform was going to tell them.

[Brian Reed]

For that Reality got the longest prison sentence ever imposed on a whistleblower for leaking information to the media. Reality speaks Dari and Pashto loves working out really. Into Yoga and CrossFit. When FBI agents came to arrest her at her home in Georgia, she had a Pikachu bedspread which then got reported in Rolling Stone. You might remember her story because it's been documented in Three films. There was a documentary plus two feature films, one on Hulu called Winner, starring Zach Galifianakis and Connie Britton as her parents and Emilia Jones as Reality. And then there was an HBO film called Reality, which starred Sydney Sweeney. We had the director and writer of that movie on our show last year. Up next, Reality Winner tells her story in her own words to Ira Glass from KCRW Emplacement Theory. This is question everything. I'm Brian Reed. Stick around.

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In order for our system to work, however imperfect, where whistleblowers feel comfortable taking such a huge gamble to give sensitive information to a reporter, they have to trust reporters. And what happened to Reality Winner was a massive breach of trust by journalists, a huge failure. I've always wanted to hear Reality talk about that if she has regrets about her experience, anger, and what lessons she takes from it. I recently went to an event here in New York moderated by my former boss and mentor, this American Life host Ira Glass. He was interviewing Reality about her new memoir. It's called I Am not yout Enemy. The book was one of the first times Reality told her story in her own words about growing up in Texas, joining the Air Force, working as a linguist at the nsa, and, of course, the moment that changed her life when she printed out a classified report about Russian interference in the 2016 election between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. She then leaked that document by mail to the Intercept, a news outlet that first built its reputation by publishing classified material from Edward Snowden. The Intercept was supposed to be one of the safest places for a national security leak, and Reality trusted them. Here's Ira on stage with Reality.

[Ira Glass]

Nice to be here with you.

[Reality Winner]

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Ira Glass]

So, just to remind everybody who might not have followed this so closely in the news, but you made national headlines in 2017 when you leaked a classified intelligence report which documented Russian election interference. How they hacked into a company that did election software, and then the Russians used that to try to break into 122 election sites. And for leaking this document, you got the longest prison sentence of anybody who has ever leaked anything to a reporter. You were sentenced to five years. You served four. And the document was on a classified server at the nsa. And one of the things I didn't know until I read your book is just how many people see classified documents. It's like, over a million people have access, right?

[Reality Winner]

A million of us saw that document, and, like, a million of us were waiting for that one to get leaked.

[Ira Glass]

Is this something that people actually talked about, like, oh, this one is definitely going to get leaked?

[Reality Winner]

Yes, it was like, we were almost betting money that that would be the.

[Ira Glass]

Friday night leak, because often you guys would see a document and then, like, it would get leaked, and you'd be like, of course.

[Reality Winner]

I mean, in the first four months of the Trump administration in 2017. Yes.

[Ira Glass]

And can I ask you, like, what did you hope would happen? You sent that to the Intercept, which is a website which gets a lot of leaks. Like, in your mind, what did you picture happening once they published this document?

[Reality Winner]

I had hoped that our country would protect itself. I had hoped that Americans would gain hope that, like, figuring out that we are still a very ugly country at heart. Like, we would kind of be like, well, it wasn't all us. Right? Like, and obviously, I'm talking around the document. I still can't mention anything that's contained within those pages. Certain countries I don't get to talk about anymore. But I really had hoped that at that point, it would answer a question that was tearing the country in half, and we would move on from that and try to figure out, like, how we're going to survive the next three and a half years of Donald Trump.

[Ira Glass]

And I should say, like, you can't discuss those things because it's part of your court settlement that you can't discuss those things. But at the time, Donald Trump was saying very loudly, as he still says, like, the Russians didn't interfere. And there was this document on the NSA server showing clearly that the Russians had interfered with. One of the things that I think people don't appreciate about your story is that the intelligence report you leaked. Again, I can talk about this, but you can't, because I'm not under a settlement with the government. The intelligence report that you leaked, it said that the Russians interfered in the election, but not enough to hand Trump the presidency. And so my sense of it. And if you can talk about this, please do, and if you can't, then that's fine, just say. My sense of it is that you weren't trying to say, oh, my God, Trump shouldn't be president. It's more like you were just trying to get facts out there about what actually happened.

[Reality Winner]

Exactly. And a big part of it was meant to handle the media bias. That was not necessarily new, but we had a little bit more awareness of that in 2017. We didn't have the word algorithm yet, the way that we use it every day now. But I do always say that 2016 was like the first presidential election almost entirely fought and won on Facebook. And so part of getting that document out there in black and white. And I know, like, Americans love a good logo. Right. And it had the NSA logo at the top of the document. And I just wanted people to see the truth for once and not what their relative, like, media platform was going to tell them.

[Ira Glass]

And then the Intercept got this document and you're picturing this is going to come out, people will notice it. It's going to be very explosive. Is that right?

[Reality Winner]

Yep.

[Ira Glass]

Everyone will be talking about it. Yep.

It'll push the entire national debate.

[Reality Winner]

Yep.

[Ira Glass]

And explain what happened when the Intercept got it.

[Reality Winner]

The Intercept got the document and they tried to figure out what they were going to do to verify it. Right. Because anybody could have put that logo on a piece of paper and said, oh, this is top secret.

In the meantime, Glenn Greenwald said, we're not publishing that. That's not important. The Intercept was just as. Just as impervious to the media bias that I was seeing in the mainstream.

[Ira Glass]

Explain what you mean, like, when you say the media bias.

[Brian Reed]

What do you mean?

[Reality Winner]

Like Fox versus MSNBC type style. You know what I mean? Like what you put the TV on at night or what the TV channel is on, like when you go get your nails done, like back of the room, subconscious 24 hour news cycle that we just hear nonstop.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah.

[Reality Winner]

I thought the Intercept would be independent of that. And at that point in time, they were not in any way interested in publishing this type of truth.

[Ira Glass]

They got this document about Russia. They decided, we're not going to publish it. And then eventually they did publish it. Right.

[Reality Winner]

They published It, I think it was like an hour and 15 minutes before the DOJ press conference where my name was released to the public and they had sensed that I would be the leaker that sets the example.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah, and explain this idea that you were going to be the example. How are you the example at that point?

[Reality Winner]

So at that time, people in nsa, FBI were looking for the next leaker. They were really tired of the whispers from Congress that were being sent to various journalists around the Beltway, like every single Friday night. And honestly, as somebody who worked for NSA at the time while I was kind of like, yeah, rebellion. Leaks make our job harder. They set us back. And that was something that I had kind of empathized with. But as somebody who worked for the NSA who really took it seriously, I saw that document was like, yeah, this is really true, it's really explosive, but it's also obsolete. And so that's why I made the choice to leak that particular document.

[Ira Glass]

What do you mean obsolete?

[Reality Winner]

Well, my 24 year old national security expert self decided that that document with the sources and methods involved could not further harm future operations because there's no.

[Ira Glass]

Explicit, like, sources and methods revealed in this particular document.

[Reality Winner]

Exactly. It would be like declassifying something from Vietnam. Like, what's that going to do?

[Ira Glass]

Right. Because it was from before the election, it was now well past the election.

[Reality Winner]

Exactly.

[Ira Glass]

Okay, so finally the Intercept publishes it and when they do, what kind of reaction does it get?

[Reality Winner]

I don't know. I was in jail, but I'm pretty sure ain't none of y' all read it. Like, to this day and age, I still meet journalists that want to interview me about it. And I'm like, it's been online for eight years now. Like, y' all need to read it. I can't tell you what's in it. But what I can say is that the entire conversation became about who I was and how evil and insidious I was. And what I found out later on is that Congress and other people in positions outside of the NSA did not know that document existed. So when I had seen the document and when a million of us who had top secret clearances saw that document, we were looking to like, why isn't Congress doing anything about it? And they hadn't seen it. So, you know, people always ask, oh, would you do it again? And I'm like, not really. I didn't really accomplish much. If I had to break the law again, I would have taken that document straight to dc, straight to Congress. It felt like everybody in government Knew it and were willing to look away except for me.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah. Yeah. Have you tried to explain to yourself why it didn't get attention?

[Reality Winner]

I don't want to infringe on a copyright or trademark, but it was a really inconvenient truth at the time.

I didn't write that. That was. I'm copying somebody else. But it was a really inconvenient piece of news. And one of my attorneys always told me, you embarrass the government. This is going to be impossible moving forward.

[Ira Glass]

But hadn't in the final days of the Obama administration, hadn't the intelligence agencies, and correct me if I'm remembering this wrong, put out a report saying that Russia was to interfere in the election? Like, that was a public fact that we knew.

[Reality Winner]

They released it on January 6, 2017, in case that date sounds familiar, but they didn't make it sexy enough because ain't none of y' all ever read that one either.

[Ira Glass]

When you look back at this, do you just feel like, oh, that was a mistake. I just didn't think through.

[Reality Winner]

Yeah, I put my family through hell for nothing. And I think that there was a really weird three weeks in which I committed a felony and nothing happened. One of the reasons why I don't know what happened the afternoon I walked out with that document is not because of, like, oh, I just can't tell you guys. It's that I walked out with the document, I mailed it, and nothing happened. And so I had to kind of convince myself, like, in order to walk back into the NSA every single day after that, that it didn't happen and that it, A, got lost in the mail, or B, they saw it and thought it was fake and shredded it. So, like, until the FBI showed up at my house in Augusta, Georgia, it actually hadn't happened anymore. And I don't remember why I did it because of those really weird, awkward three weeks of, like, stressing out and nothing happening.

[Ira Glass]

One of the things you pointed out in the book that I thought was so interesting was that when you first printed out the document, you weren't even thinking about leaking it. Like, explain your motivation.

[Reality Winner]

I just wanted it, like, in my hands. I wanted it. Like, I wanted to have it. I wanted to own it.

[Ira Glass]

Like, just in case somebody would try to wipe away all trace of it someday.

[Reality Winner]

Yeah, like, definitely. Things that are on paper are sort of a relic that, like, you know, once we lose a power source, whatever's on the computer's gone forever. But here's a paper that, you know, could survive time yeah, but did you.

[Ira Glass]

Foresee, like, maybe they'll try to erase this off the server and then you'll be glad you have it because you might want to bring it forward then?

[Reality Winner]

I don't know if I was that cynical yet, but I did know, like I was very aware of the fact that reports did and could get taken down.

[Ira Glass]

There's this thing that you read in the book. You say that you did this completely life changing thing without giving it a ton of thought. You say I spontaneously tapped the print button on a five page document involving intelligence from the previous year without giving the whole thing much thought, like an actor in some slapstick comedy. I immediately realized that I didn't know where in the office the report would be printed out.

[Reality Winner]

I didn't know it was a very long hallway and the NSA was trying to do this thing where we had an open workspace. So it wasn't even like cubicles. And all the printers were in kitchenettes, but they were like a kitchenette with unclassified printers. And then there were like the next level up was like a yellow sticker on the printers for just secret. And then there were kitchenettes that had like the red top secret. And then there were like the red ones with the lines through it with like the top secret. No foreign. And I was just like going from kitchenette to kitchenette at like 7:15 in the morning and nobody was even there yet. And I was like, yeah, I'm just going to come look at this. Keurig.

Yeah. I had no idea where that printer was.

[Brian Reed]

That's reality Winner on stage in New York with Ira Glass. After a break. What was it like to get caught?

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[Ira Glass]

There's a battle playing out right now over who should control American universities.

[Brian Reed]

Hands up.

[Reality Winner]

Hands up.

[Ira Glass]

We're gonna bankrupt these universities.

[Reality Winner]

In season one, we were guessing what was to come.

[Ira Glass]

Now we know we want Nothing less than $500 million from Harvard, from the.

[Reality Winner]

Boston Globe, and on the media, it's.

[Ira Glass]

Season two of the Harvard plan.

[Brian Reed]

This time, it really is personal.

[Reality Winner]

Listen to OnTheMedia wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brian Reed]

Welcome back to the show. We've been listening to NSA leaker Reality winner telling Ira Glass about the top secret document she printed showing Russia's attempts to interfere in the 2016 election. Reality says she smuggled the document out of the NSA hidden in her pantyhose. Then she mailed it to the Intercept, a newsroom known for handling leaked classified documents.

[Reality Winner]

One of the reasons why I chose the Intercept is all of these guys had, like, NSA military intelligence backgrounds and that they presented their information in a way that felt pre sanitized, and it felt like they weren't just going to be like, here's a source and a methodology that we're perfectly comfortable with jeopardizing. Right? I trusted these guys.

[Brian Reed]

But reality says that trust was misplaced. The Intercept shared the document with the NSA to verify it. It turns out only six employees had printed it, and authorities were able to pretty quickly figure out who the leaker was. FBI agents showed up at her home, interrogated her, and arrested her.

The Intercept conducted an internal review after reality was caught out, and the then editor in chief wrote afterwards that the Intercept had fallen short of its standards for dealing with anonymously leaked material. It is clear that we should have taken greater precautions to protect the identity of a source who is anonymous, even to us, the editor wrote. Here's the rest of Ira's conversation with reality.

[Ira Glass]

Did the Intercept try to make this up to you in any way?

[Reality Winner]

The parent company that owns the Intercept paid for my legal fees, and that's why I tried to have as many attorney meetings as possible.

I was like, yes, yes, come visit me in prison.

I was like, how much do you charge per hour? $1,500. Yes.

[Ira Glass]

This question comes from friends of mine at the journalism podcast. Question everything they wanted me to ask you. When did you learn about the Intercept's mistakes? Who told that to you? Where were you?

[Reality Winner]

I was in a broom closet in the Augusta courthouse because that became our Secured Compartmented Information facility, or a scif.

[Ira Glass]

Wait, how did you know that that wasn't bugged.

[Reality Winner]

We found out a lot of things were bugged in hindsight. But there was like, a fan that was supposed to stop people from listening. It was a whole thing. But it was designed to make it so that I could not have any type of normal communication with my attorneys.

[Ira Glass]

So wait, the courthouse said, here's a secure room and it's a broom closet and there's a fan in the broom closet that makes noise. Is that the idea?

[Reality Winner]

Yep. And my legal team at that point was nine individuals. And if we were really comfortable with each other, we could fit about four of us in there. So it made legal discussions very, like, difficult. Also, like, the air conditioning didn't work in that room, but it was secure. That's what they said.

[Ira Glass]

And that's when you learned. That's when you learned, like, this is why this happened. That's when you learned the Intercept had done this.

[Reality Winner]

That. And then I believe it was that same meeting when I actually got to see the FBI texts, like, minute by minute the night before. Like, yes, you will arrest her. And then, no, you're not going to arrest her. And yes, she will be in custody by the end of the day. And then like Saturday morning at like 6am she's not under arrest. Like, don't tell her she's under arrest.

So they went back and forth on it. And that was one of the things that we had intended to bring to the court to try to get my confession taken from the record.

[Ira Glass]

How would that get your confession taken from the record?

[Reality Winner]

If I was in custody and I confessed without being read my Miranda rights, that would have actually had the entire thing settled in a mistrial, which we weren't even hoping for, that we just wanted the confession taken off court records and not played in front of a jury.

[Ira Glass]

But you lost that.

[Reality Winner]

They never ruled on it.

[Ira Glass]

Did your experience with the Intercept lead you to distrust reporters in general as a result?

[Reality Winner]

No, My experience with Rolling Stone led me to not trust reporters in general.

[Ira Glass]

What was that experience?

[Reality Winner]

It was a four hour conversation about my entire life with somebody that had been in contact with me my entire incarceration. And I just said something funny at the end, like, yeah, I wish my attorneys actually got paid like they were supposed to. And after that, that's what she made the entire, like, article about. And I got, like, in big trouble for that. So I was like, you could have just asked that up front and saved me four hours of my life. But that was when I learned, like, journalists, no offense to anybody here, there's like a low hanging fruit that's gonna get clicks right now. And a lot of times that's really tempting.

[Ira Glass]

When news of you, like, became a national thing, like, when you hit the national news, can you just talk about, like, what you saw said about you? Like, what you saw on Inside Edition, what you saw elsewhere? You want to start with Inside Edition?

[Reality Winner]

That was like the first non government hit piece on me that was so devastating because, like, think about your social media and think about, like, anything you've ever said or done in a video. Three words, like, pulled out of context and then like, shown you in like a jumpsuit and chains and like, yeah, they. They're terrible. I think the biggest thing that I remember from that is that I had made a video of me planking for 24 minutes for my 24th birthday. Because my favorite yoga teacher, that was his thing. Like, no matter how old you turned, you have to plank for that many minutes. And.

[Ira Glass]

So. So I turned 66 recently.

[Reality Winner]

That's okay. Like, I think the world record's like 18 hours. So you've got this.

[Ira Glass]

Oh, okay.

[Reality Winner]

But there's a point where, like, I'm like, laugh crying at like, minute 21 and I'm like, I hate everything. And that's what Inside Edition pulled. And so I seemed very unhinged and not patriotic. And I was just like, that was my birthday plank.

[Ira Glass]

They quoted you saying, I hate everything. And then did they say that, like, this is why you committed this crime?

[Reality Winner]

Exactly, yes. I committed that crime because I hate planking.

[Ira Glass]

What was it like to see this stuff said about you?

[Reality Winner]

Physically traumatic. I would come home from court, first of all, just going to court was traumatic. You are shackled hands and feet the entire day. Like, your feet are manacled the entire day. No exercise. You're no longer in control of what you're eating or drinking. The woman's cell is right next to the men's cell with an open bathroom. And there's also reflective glass. So, like on one hand, like, when you get locked up long enough, it's really cool because there's boys over there, even though you don't know why those boys are there, but also men are watching you pee all day. And then going into the courtroom is, like, physically traumatic because it's like, don't react. But if you don't react, you're. I don't know, like, you're a sociopath. But if you do react, you're unhinged. So most of the time you're sitting there like, I don't really care what these people are saying. And that's like a 10 hour day because you don't just go home or go back to jail because your hearing's over with. You go at 6 o' clock at night when everybody's done, so that's traumatic. And then you get back into the housing unit or the cell and everybody's like, what were you doing all day? And I'm like, I don't. Being tortured, I don't know what you want me to say. And then I go to take a shower. I just feel filthy being chained all day. And then they're watching the news and while you're in the shower, because it's one room and you can hear everything the prosecution had to say about you. So then I get out of the shower and everybody's looking at me like, oh my God, we didn't know that frickin Bin Laden was in here. And these women were so, like, they were illiterate in general, but like, they were especially media illiterate. So they were like, we've never been in this situation before where, you know, one of us is on the tv, like, what did you do? And I'm like, I sent a piece of paper. And they're like, so how much money did you embezzle? And I'm like, I sent a piece of paper. Like, to this day I can't, I can't watch or read anything about myself. Even if I have like total control over it, like, even if it's my own words, like this recording, I can't listen to it because I start to shake violently. Because I just remember how hard those nights were with these women that were so obsessed with like, ree, you're on tv. And I'm like, I don't, like, you know what I mean? Like, my government just accused me of terrorism for no reason. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to watch it right now.

[Ira Glass]

I mean, for me, I feel like it just seems like such a nightmarish thing to do something that you're thinking is an idealistic act and patriotic. And then.

People are saying this stuff about you.

[Reality Winner]

You know, honestly, I thought as a country we had moved past it, like, I thought with like Snowden, I don't know, like, yes, I worked intelligence, so people were like, we don't like Snowden because they look in our lunch boxes at work now. Like, we have to go through turnstiles and metal detectors.

[Ira Glass]

At nsa?

[Reality Winner]

Yeah, at nsa. But nobody really disagreed because he took.

[Ira Glass]

Out like a Flash drive or something.

[Reality Winner]

A flash drive? Yeah. So Snowden was the reason why we had to go through significantly more security to get to work every day. And so, like, nobody likes that guy. Like, and that was the point at nsa. At nsa, like, it was never like, oh, don't betray your country. It was like, don't make life inconvenient for us. But, like, nobody disagreed with why he leaked it. And so I thought, like, as a country, we were past that moment where like, we were going to call leakers traitors without looking into what they had leaked. Right. Like, especially six years after Snowden, I thought people would be a lot more favorable to it and paying more attention.

[Ira Glass]

And look at what you were actually leaking and deciding if they thought it was good or not.

[Reality Winner]

Yeah. And like, decide for yourselves, was this national defense information or not?

[Ira Glass]

You know, the government prosecuted you under the Intelligence act of 1917, and you got this huge sentence. What do you think should have happened? You're saying on the one hand you agree that people shouldn't be leaking and national security is a real thing and classified documents should be kept secure. What do you think should have happened in your case?

[Reality Winner]

In my case, I would have liked to go to an experienced intelligence based court, probably in Alexandria, Virginia, where there is one, where we could have made a legal defense as to whether or not that document was in fact national defense information and whether or not the publication of that document affected national security moving forward. Then it could have gone to trial and even then I would have gotten a significantly lower sentence. I have never, from day one, asked for zero consequences.

[Ira Glass]

Because you feel like you should have faced some consequences because people shouldn't be leaking classified documents. You feel like that seems fair? It's just the level of it seems unfair.

[Reality Winner]

Yeah. And I mean, I don't know, maybe I could have gotten away with it.

[Ira Glass]

Is the thing you're saying that you wanted them to consider, Are they allowed to consider that under the act? Can they consider the degree to which something compromises national security?

[Reality Winner]

That is why the way the law stands today, the way it is written, 793E of the Espionage act of 1917 is an unjust law because it is vague, it is broad, and it can be used however they want it to be used. But a similar leaker named Daniel Hale did get to go to a national security specialty court in Alexandria, Virginia, and got less time in prison. And that that was not a plea deal. I mean, I love Dan, and that.

[Ira Glass]

Was because he was able to argue this didn't actually compromise national security. There was a public interest to this.

[Reality Winner]

Yeah. He was actually able to make a public interest argument. We were in Redneckistan, Georgia, where it was like, nah, she's bad.

[Ira Glass]

With all of these things that have been said about you that you felt like we're not capturing at all and in fact, completely missing the point of what you were trying to do. What was it like to write a book?

[Reality Winner]

I didn't like it very much. I feel so much for everybody that's worked with me in the last four years. To me, I felt like it took a lot of building me back up. Right. Because after being called a traitor, I was like, we don't have to mention I was in the Air Force. We don't have to mention my childhood. I just wanted a prison memoir.

[Ira Glass]

Did you have the experience when you were writing that you feel like, oh, my God, I'm finally getting to say this. I'm finally getting to say this thing I want people to hear.

[Reality Winner]

It took a really long time, but right now I'm starting to see that this is going to be one of the first and maybe the only narratives of a woman linguist associated with the war in Afghanistan and the extremely traumatic but irreverent way with which we handled fighting a war from an office space. It took me a really long time to see that we were giving the reader something that may not be seen anywhere else right now.

[Ira Glass]

That's so interesting that that's the part of it that you feel proud of or one of the parts of it that you feel proud of. You're talking about the fact that, like, in the book, you describe listening in on conversations, and you're sending out these bombing missions, and over 600 people died as a result of intelligence that you gave. You said, like, do this one, and you came out of it with ptsd, which happens. Like, that's not uncommon with drone operators and people who are. Who are involved in these missions.

[Reality Winner]

Yeah. Like, it's a weird way to, like, connect that with my life now is I. Last week, I finally put up my.

Car license plates that say Air Force Commendation Medal on them. I almost, like, never identify as a veteran.

[Ira Glass]

Can I ask. Listening in on those things. If you can't talk about this, just say, how clear is it that a bombing mission needs to be called in? What kinds of things are people saying? How clear is it that it's the right thing to do to send in a bombing mission?

[Reality Winner]

It's not. We were barely qualified to do that. 0.000001% of the time was like, they're watching American soldiers. They're going to shoot those American soldiers. Every other time was like, I don't know. But, you know, we have a quota to make.

[Ira Glass]

You guys have a quota to make.

[Reality Winner]

It was never written out. I'm not going to say that. But we would get these officers that were not intelligence officers. They would just come rotating through, because in the military, if you're an officer, you just get to do what you want. And they would come by with zero. Like, they just came from, like, Korea, right? And they would come over and be like, well, why aren't we doing anything? And I'm like, because Afghanistan's covered in ice right now. Like, what do you mean? And they're like, well, order a strike. And I'm like, afghanistan is covered in ice right now. Like, what do you mean? And those were, like, the jackasses that we would have to deal with.

[Ira Glass]

Can you talk about the kinds of things that you would hear that that would result in an airstrike?

[Reality Winner]

I don't know how much is, like, declassified. None of it's declassified. But how much, like, the NSA is cool with. But like I said, it's just very rarely we could clearly hear that American soldiers were in danger. But that was only after we established that American soldiers were in the area. Right. Like, we had to know who was out there, what unit it is, where exactly are they, and then decide, yeah, they're being watched.

[Ira Glass]

You read in your book that you had read about prisons and you had seen the documentary 13th about the prison system, and you had seen Orange as the new Black. Can you compare for me your picture of what it was going to be like to be incarcerated to what it was really like.

[Reality Winner]

But it was just as tragic. And I think that the difference being is that, like, Orange is the New Black was set in prison proper. And so I got to this one room county jail cell where it was like, okay, but where's the rest of this place? But the people, the characters are the same. And so being like, the aspiring filmmaker that I was was, like, seeing everybody like the characters. Like, even if I really, really, really disliked somebody, I started to, like, in my mind, put together, okay, in Orange is the New Black. This is where it would cut away and start showing this character's backstory. And so, like, I started writing backstories for the people around me. And that kept me sane.

[Ira Glass]

Did it help you get along with them better?

[Reality Winner]

No.

No. But it was a way to pass the time.

[Ira Glass]

I mean, reading the book, I was, I mean, I guess surprised at what good relationships you have with most of the women you were in with and, like, how supportive they often were.

[Reality Winner]

We had to be everything for each other, right? Like, we had to be best friend, mother, sister, daughter, cousin, worst enemy. You know, we had to be everything for each other or else we wouldn't have anything.

[Ira Glass]

Okay, so I'm going to take. We're going to now take questions from you guys. Yes.

[Reality Winner]

Did it ever cross your mind to not stay?

[Ira Glass]

Did it occur to you not to stay in the United States?

[Reality Winner]

It didn't occur to me to flee because I thought the information would get out first and I thought people would be so grateful for it that by the time I got arrested or caught or apprehended for would be like, okay, but don't do that again.

[Ira Glass]

Who, who else has a question here? Anybody else? Yeah.

[Reality Winner]

What does patriotism mean to you now.

[Ira Glass]

And how has that changed since 2017?

[Reality Winner]

I think that patriotism means loving something but still being able to criticize it, be able to see the flaws and to understand that loving something like the United States of America.

We were flawed from the start. We were built upon sin. And I think patriotism is trying to fix that. Original sin.

[Brian Reed]

That's Reality winner with this American Life host ira Glass at McNally Jackson Books here in New York. Thanks to Ira and to the teams over at this American Life and McNally Jackson for sharing this conversation with us and to Susannah Fogel. Again, reality's memoir is called I Am not yout Enemy.

Please rate and review. Question everything. Share it with a friend. Today's episode was edited by managing editor Kevin Sullivan. Our executive producers are me, Brian Reed, and Robin Simeon. Annika Robbins was our fact checker this week. The rest of our team includes producers Zach St. Louis, Sophie Kazis, associate producer Kevin Shepard, and contributing editor Jen Kinney. Our sound designer, Brendan Baker mixed this week's show. Our music is by Matt McGinley. Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seiple, Tejal Algemera, Natalie Hill and Jennifer Farrow. Next week on the show, the president of Argentina joins in an online attack against a journalist who was the victim of a Deepfake video.

[Reality Winner]

The first thing that I started seeing were threats in my Instagram inbox. Threats with my address.

[Ira Glass]

Awful things.

[Reality Winner]

Just like you're going to experience something very bad, something bad is going to happen to you.

I've never received in my inbox such direct threats.

[Brian Reed]

That's next Thursday. We'll see you then.

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