Betraying a Friendship to Get a Viral Story

Summary

Podcast Summary: Question Everything

Episode Title: Betraying a Friendship to Get a Viral Story
Host: Brian Reed
Date: October 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this powerful episode, Question Everything features a cross-podcast collaboration with Death, Sex & Money, hosted by Anna Sale. The focus is on journalist A.J. Delario and his former source, Jen Sturger, whose life was upended after Delario published a viral story about NFL quarterback Brett Favre’s sexual harassment of her—against her wishes and naming her publicly.

The two sit down, years later, to explore themes of betrayal, accountability, ethical ambiguity in journalism, and the search for personal closure. The episode is a rare and candid conversation between a journalist and a source who was burned by his pursuit of a story.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Backstory and Betrayal (02:46 – 22:21)

• Jen’s Early Fame: Jen Sturger rose to public attention after being featured in a football game broadcast (07:49), leading to opportunities with Maxim, Playboy, and Deadspin.
• The Original Breach: Sturger confided in Delario, then editor at Deadspin, about Brett Favre’s unwanted, explicit messages and voicemails (12:03). She asked him not to publish anything using her name or as a story at all.
• Delario’s Decision: Despite her wishes, Delario pursued the story. He paid another source $10,000 for the voicemails and photos and published them along with Jen’s name and image, making her a target in sports media and online spaces (22:37).

“If I've learned anything, it's that once your story gets told by someone else, it's no longer your story.”
— Jen Sturger (05:27)

2. Journalism Ethics, Sensationalism, and the Cost of Viral Stories (09:06 – 26:17)

• Delario’s Approach: He reflects on not seeing himself as a journalist, but as a “provocateur” who thrived on public spectacle, attention, and controversy (09:06–10:10).
• The Viral Incentive: Delario describes the competitive, ethically loose atmosphere at Gawker and Deadspin, including paying for stories and prioritizing traffic and spectacle over traditional reporting standards (22:49).
• Consequences for Jen: After publication, Sturger lost her job, went through a personal transformation, and became defined by the scandal in media and public perception (18:47–18:58; 46:40–47:42).

“I think the Internet told me who I was before I had a chance to figure that out for myself. And they got it wrong.”
— Jen Sturger (28:50)

3. Male Power, Victim Blaming, and Silence in Sports Media (13:03 – 18:18)

• Power Differential: Sturger contrasts her vulnerability as a 25-year-old contractor with Favre’s legendary, insulated status (13:03).
• Industry Complicity: Delario recounts how other journalists were unwilling to pursue the story for fear of alienating Favre or risking their own careers (17:31).

“People knew this about Brett Favre, but...if they lose access to Brett Favre... that could cost them their job.”
— A.J. Delario (17:31)

4. The Aftermath and Unexpected Reunion (29:20 – 41:19)

• Years of No Contact: For eight years, Jen and AJ had no contact. Then, a rescue dog connected their lives by chance—Jen was the volunteer slated to bring a puppy to AJ’s family (29:20–36:39).
• Meeting in Person: Their first real-life meeting, while emotionally loaded, was shaped by the presence of the dog in need and the changed contexts of both their lives (40:06–41:00).

“I honestly think it’s because I wanted him to just see that I was a real person.”
— Jen Sturger (38:52)

5. Moving Forward, Accountability, and Forgiveness (41:19 – 48:52)

• Making Amends: Delario, now sober and changed through AA, puts Sturger on his amends list, though outreach is complicated by questions of who benefits from the apology (33:12–34:20).
• Mutual Understanding: Both realize they are forever defined by the lowest moments of viral infamy—Sturger as "the Brett Favre girl," Delario as the "Gawker Dick pic guy"—and find comfort in their shared experiences (47:22–47:42).

“The person that was technically the victim in this situation [is] the only person that's taking accountability for their part.”
— Jen Sturger (55:13)

• On Forgiveness: Sturger grants Delario forgiveness because he is the only one who has ever personally apologized and admitted to the harm caused (47:42–48:52).

“AJ is the only person in this entire story that has ever come to me and looked me in the eye and told me he was sorry.”
— Jen Sturger (47:50)

6. Redefining Identity and Reclaiming the Narrative (44:08 – End)

• Dehumanization by Media: Both discuss the pain of being reduced to plot points in other people’s stories—Sturger by sports media, Delario by the Esquire profile after the Hogan trial (44:08–46:28).
• Support and Ongoing Connection: They now regularly check in, especially when their scandals are back in the news, and offer mutual support through their shared “language of public shame” (49:36–51:51).

“I think we can connect on this, and I think that this could be a good thing.”
— A.J. Delario (44:23)

• Closure and Growth: Sturger channels her experience into supporting other women, teaching standup and narrative control; Delario runs The Small Bow, a recovery community for people moving beyond their worst moments (56:16).

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On losing ownership of your own story:
  “Once your story gets told by someone else, it's no longer your story.”
  — Jen Sturger (05:27)
• On being defined by an online moment:
  “The Internet told me who I was before I had a chance to figure that out for myself. And they got it wrong.”
  — Jen Sturger (28:50)
• On viral fame and pain:
  “I always just, when I would talk about it to people back in the day, I would describe the way I presented in public as kind of like my wrestling gimmick... Suddenly with this story, those lines became very blurred, even for myself.”
  — Jen Sturger (28:54)
• On seeking forgiveness:
  “AJ is the only person in this entire story that has ever come to me and looked me in the eye and told me he was sorry.”
  — Jen Sturger (47:50)
• On identity and media narrative:
  “I've lost control of who I am... the rest of the world is like, you are this person, and this is how you're going to be treated henceforth.”
  — AJ Delario (46:11)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Background and setup of the original Favre story: 02:46 – 22:21
• Jen’s career trajectory and discovery: 07:49 – 08:34
• Delario’s journalistic philosophy: 09:06 – 10:21
• Power dynamics and media complicity: 13:03 – 18:18
• Viral publication and aftermath: 21:10 – 26:17
• Unexpected dog adoption reunion: 29:20 – 41:00
• Making amends and ongoing relationship: 41:19 – 51:51
• Conversation on identity and moving forward: 44:08 – end

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Tone

The conversation is candid, vulnerable, and deeply reflective. Both Sturger and Delario display a mix of regret, self-realization, and resilience. Anna Sale guides the dialogue with empathy and a focus on nuance, not easy redemption.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its raw exploration of journalistic ethics, the personal cost of viral stories, gender dynamics, and the long road from betrayal to empathy and mutual understanding. Listeners gain rare insight into how public infamy entangles and transforms those at its center—and the possibility of connection and healing, however unexpected, in its aftermath.

Transcript

[Host of Question Everything]

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[Jen Sturger]

I just got my new phone and the KCRW app is the best way to get the music and shows you love from kcrw. And it's been totally redone to to be cleaner, faster and more reliable. And there's two new music, Dance 24 and Vintage 24. And they're only in the app plus real time now playing, so you never miss a track ID. Look up KCRW in the App Store and be sure to make a free account to use all the new features.

[Host of Question Everything]

Hey. So I'm here with our contributing editor, Jen Kinney. And Jen, this week you have an episode of another show that you really enjoyed. You recommended it to me and now you want to share it with our listeners because you thought our audience specifically would really be into this. You want to tell us a bit about it?

[Jen Sturger]

Yeah. I thought this was such a great episode of Death, Sex and Money, which is a show hosted by Anna Sale. And it's a conversation between a journalist, which I'm putting in air quotes because he himself questions that in the episode, and a source of his that he burned years ago, someone that he really betrayed by publishing a story that she did not want published. And yet years later, they reconnect and they make up and they have this really honest conversation about the cost of him pursuing the story the way that they did and how that affected her life.

[Host of Question Everything]

The episode's, I think, pretty remarkable. I'm always looking for radio and podcasts like this because the two of them actually are on it together. And you get to hear them talk through this experience of betrayal, of hurt, of forgiveness, of things that still bother them. And it's really on theme for the show. It touches on a lot of stuff that we've dug into here on question Everything.

[Jen Sturger]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's rare to hear a conversation between journalist and source that's so candid to begin with and then to hear it in this way where there was such a deep betrayal and then a reconciliation. Especially unique.

[Host of Question Everything]

Awesome. Well, yeah, thanks for saying it to me. I really enjoyed it and I hope you all do too. Check it out. Here's an episode of death, sex and Money.

[Anna Sale]

Has there been a person who changed the course of your life, but not in a good way. Someone that left you with enough scar tissue that never encountering each other again would be just fine? That was the case for A.J. delario and Jen Sturger. Jen and A.J. ran in the same circles for a time in the late aughts. Both worked in sports media and Jen told AJ about Brett Favre, the very famous, very powerful quarterback, sending her repeated messages and photos and voicemails, propositioning her. But she asked AJ not to do a story, and at the very least not one that named her. AJ did the story anyway, and he paid a source to get access to the messages Jen said were from Favre. He posted those too, along with Jen's name and picture that changed Jen's life forever, making her and her motives and her looks the target of sports fans commentary. It's been 15 years since that story broke, but she can tell you a viral Internet story has this way of freezing you in a difficult moment in your life, and then it does it over and over again with each new search. And then, years later, a stray puppy needed a home. And in a wild twist, that puppy brought AJ and Jen back in contact in a way neither of them would have done on their own. AJ Delario was featured on the show last fall when we shared an episode of PJ Vogt's wonderful podcast search engine called when do you know it's time to stop drinking? AJ talked about his heavy drug use and drinking during the time that he was running some of the Internet's most attention grabbing news sites, the sports site Deadspin and Gawker, the tabloiding news site that relished a takedown of a celebrity or captain of industry. AJ eventually had his own takedown after Gawker published a stolen video of Hulk Hogan having sex. Hogan sued Gawker and AJ and won at a jury trial. Gawker declared bankruptcy and settled. That was years ago. AJ has since gotten sober and he talks openly now about the competitive incentives and lack of ethical scruples that led him to do things he wishes now he hadn't. But that wasn't something he had expressed directly to sources he'd burned like Jen. And then this dog made them cross paths again. And now this week, they both talk to me together on this episode.

[Jen Sturger]

There's just this violation that comes from having pieces of your life that were so private and so damaging to you put out there by someone other than yourself. If I've learned anything, it's that once your story gets told by someone else, it's no longer your story.

[Anna Sale]

This is death, Sex and Money.

The show from Slate, about the things we love, we think about a lot.

And need to talk about more.

I'm Anna Salem.

[Host of Question Everything]

Okay, so I've been telling you about this sponsor we're working with, Plaud. That's P as in pancake. P L A U D. It's this nifty tiny AI assistant and notetaker device. Though it's much more than that. You turn it on, it can record a meeting, interview, or just you talking to it and dumping the contents of your brain into it. Just in the last few weeks, I've been introducing it to my wife. And I shit you not, just this morning. She and I were just catching up after dropping our kid off at school about things we have to get done this week. We have a really busy week. And she said, hey, can you plod this? It just showed like, actually this is becoming part of our life and it's actually really useful. Check out Plaud. P L A U D AI if you buy one, please use the special code question.

[Anna Sale]

Netflix just released a new documentary about NFL legendary quarterback Brett Favre, who was once celebrated and still sort of is, even after a series of high profile scandals. The documentary is called the Fall of Favre. And early on it introduces us to Jen Sturger. In 2005, she was a college student at Florida State and was discovered by chance when a TV camera panned across her and a group of friends at a football game. She was wearing a bikini top and a cowboy hat. As she was on screen, announcer Brent Musburger took note on the national broadcast. 1500 red blooded Americans just decided to apply to Florida State.

The Internet sports site Deadspin also noticed Jen and made her an instant Internet celebrity.

[Jen Sturger]

When my pictures came out from the football game, I remember Deadspin got a hold of them through the message boards and stuff like that. And so I ended up like, I think in some kind of article or article's a loose term for it. I ended up on their website, you.

[Anna Sale]

Know, this is you in the cowgirl hat watching a Football game.

[Jen Sturger]

Exactly. So from there, I think Deadspin was actually what got me noticed by Maxim and Playboy.

[Anna Sale]

So Deadspin had kind of helped you establish a profile on the Internet?

[Jen Sturger]

Exactly. Deadspin helped kind of launch me in a way.

[Anna Sale]

From there, Jen appeared in Playboy and Maxim. She wrote a column for Sports Illustrated called Confessions of a Cowgirl and contributed to ABC's college basketball coverage. Meanwhile, Deadspin was also launching the career of A.J. delerio, who started as a writer and became Deadspin's editor by 2008. AJ had sharp elbows and a knack for beating out competition for eyeballs on the Internet. Did you think of yourself as a journalist? Is that the word you used for what you did?

[AJ Delario]

No, no, not at all.

[Anna Sale]

Huh?

[AJ Delario]

Yeah. I never liked that. That there was. There was a lot. I. I know I did journalism at some point, right. But I was kind of like, cartwheeling through it is like, how I like to describe it, because I knew that there were some restrictions that I wanted to. To not adhere to. Right. I didn't want three sources. I wanted to pay for stories. I wanted to do things that were kind of a little more editorialized and subjective. I wanted to kind of, you know, incorporate a lot more voice and personality into the stories that I did. Right. So I didn't really think of myself as a journalist. No.

[Anna Sale]

What's a word that you might have fit better? Provocateur.

[AJ Delario]

I mean, I was going to say that, but I was just, man, do I still like an asshole if I say provocateur. And I kind of do. But I think that I loved spectacle. Right. I really loved having.

Either good or bad attention was. It didn't matter to me. As long as people were talking about something that I had done, I considered that a win.

[Anna Sale]

By 2008, Jen Sturger was hired as a sideline reporter for the New York Jets. She only worked for the team for one year, the same year Brett Favre came to play for the Jets. Jen also contributed to Deadspin, and she and AJ would occasionally email and talk on the phone.

[Jen Sturger]

We just kind of had a running dialogue. And then I think it was Super Bowl 2010. He and I connected to talk about super bowl parties. And then there was, like, some back and forth about whether or not AJ's guys could get into the super bowl parties. And he's like, but you can, Jen. He's like, can you tell me what's happening inside these super bowl part? I was like, yeah, sure, I guess.

[Anna Sale]

So wait, I wanna understand the super bowl party thing was like, he's kind of cultivating you as a source. Like, you are able to watch what's going on.

[AJ Delario]

She was one of my moles. And Eisenhower. Yeah.

[Anna Sale]

Okay.

[AJ Delario]

So the super bowl was supposed to be a big ad push for people at Gawker. So what I would do was put out like a bounty, right. On stuff that I wanted from super bowl week. And one of the bounties that I was, I believe was just. I was using Dongshots as, like, part of a bounty and, you know, not expecting anyone to respond to it.

[Anna Sale]

Dong shots, meaning photos of penises?

[AJ Delario]

That would be it? Yes.

[Anna Sale]

Okay. All right. Okay. So you're. You're going to be his eyes and ears as a Super bowl party. You have this, like, messaging correspondence. And then, like, how did it happen that you were sending him emails and you told him you alluded to what had happened between you and Brett Favre?

[Jen Sturger]

I think it was actually over a phone conversation. I think we just got to talking about how Dongshots had gotten so prevalent, I think is how the conversation started. It was just like, can you believe these guys that just like that, that they think that that's the move, you know what I mean? And AJ was kind of annoyed by it. He was just like, I can't believe I have to cover, like, I have to, like, deal with this, cover this. You know what I mean? And I was like, man, this is nothing compared to what happened to me at the Jets.

[Anna Sale]

As she recounts in the new Netflix documentary, Jen attracted the attention of Brett Favre, who was by then already an NFL legend from his time at the Green Bay packers in the late 90s when he won the Super bowl and was the NFL's most valuable player for three years in a row.

[Jen Sturger]

He was a God, you know, he was very protected. And I was a 25 year old independent contractor.

[Anna Sale]

And Jen says she started getting messages from him asking if she'd like to get together, even though Brett Favre was married and she never gave him her number. There were voicemails, and she says in the Netflix doc, a photo sent of his penis.

[Jen Sturger]

I was watching playoff baseball, and I remember my phone going off.

And I opened up the picture.

The picture came through, and the TMAIL address that it came with was bfarv.

[Anna Sale]

Jen told some people at the time, at the end of that season at the jets, her contract wasn't renewed. A few years Later, Jen and AJ DeLaria were talking and she told him what had happened, even played him a voicemail of what sounded a Lot like Favre's voice asking Jen to come to his hotel room. She thought of it as two sports media people trading stories.

[Jen Sturger]

At first, I remember getting off that call and being like, jen, I think you just overshared.

And I was like, nah, it's fine. Like, it's an off the record conversation. You know, it was kind of how I viewed it. But I do remember getting off that call being like, oh, no. But that happened to me so often.

It still does. And I try to monitor it a little bit more now that I know it's like a tendency of mine. I just. It's a way of connection for me is storytelling. And that's something that I've really come to understand about myself in the last decade through going through all the therapy I have.

[Anna Sale]

So it's this, like, cycle. What I hear you saying is, like, you're sharing to try to connect. And then the other side of that cycle is the, like, regret, maybe shame. Oh, God, I hope this doesn't turn out badly.

[Jen Sturger]

That I did a thousand percent.

[Anna Sale]

While you're telling yourself it's gonna be okay. That was off the record. Like, AJ when you hear this information from Jen, what do you start thinking about?

[AJ Delario]

Well.

I remember getting off the phone. Cause you played me one of the voicemails too.

[Host of Question Everything]

Right.

[AJ Delario]

I mean, and. And I think that was really the part that I was. I was shocked by, was that I was just like, oh, this wasn't he. He was. He was actively pursuing her in a way that made her uncomfortable because of her job. Right. This wasn't like a normal sort of athletes behaving badly sort of situation. She was really in a tough spot here. And that was the thing where it rose to the level of something that was bigger than I think that I was used to, but also understanding full well that this is the most popular and famous football player on the planet and who occupies a lot of space in just like, the sports media world. And then I went and I told my deputy editor what I just heard from her, and I was just like, this could be huge.

[Jen Sturger]

And I look back at, like, why did you play him the voicemails, Jen? And I think what it came down to was AJ Was not the first person I had told this to, like, professionally that I told this to. I told people that this was going on when it happened.

[AJ Delario]

Yeah.

[Jen Sturger]

And I had some people that just did not believe me. And.

I don't think there's a worse thing for a victim than feeling not believed or like, this is bullshit. This isn't Real, you know.

And I felt like AJ was the first person that heard that and was like, oh, this is a big deal and this was messed up what happened to you. I truly do believe he viewed it that way.

[Anna Sale]

Huh? It's a big story because it's so messed up what happened to you.

[Jen Sturger]

I didn't view it as a story. I just viewed it as like, this is the first person that's taken my claims seriously.

[Anna Sale]

Uh huh.

[AJ Delario]

You know, I was taking it seriously and I was asking other people because I, you know, I had a lot of sources at that point and lots of people I knew that were in the industry and.

People knew this about Brett Favre, but they were also like, look, I cover if he's doing something on the field, that's a story off the field, like, who cares? Has it risen to the level of kind of, is it illegal? Then maybe there's something there that we can talk about. But the risk of alienating the most popular football player on the planet for most of these guys was too great. Right? I mean, and I understand that, that, I mean, if they lose access to Brett Favreau or piss off somebody in Brett Favre's camp, then that could cost them their job in some way. Right?

[Anna Sale]

So you're describing just to sort of see what I'm hearing. Like, Jen, you're saying somebody's taking this seriously and somebody in it and that it matters.

[Jen Sturger]

And I just felt seen. Yeah, I felt seen for the first time because before then I had sat with this for all of, you know, like, the fall of 2008, all of 2009, and had been in therapy, had lost my job with the jets, obviously.

Had gone back to waitressing. Like, I had lost everything, you know.

And had to reinvent myself. Like, I went through a major transformation in 2009 where, like, I took out my breast implants, I.

Fully gave myself a makeover and was like, I have to do this because I'm the one that drew this attention to myself, you know, because so many people just, they didn't care, you know, and like I said, I just. I felt seen for the first time. Someone saying, hey, what happened to you was wrong.

[Anna Sale]

AJ did not post the information immediately. But then a few months later, in the summer of 2010, Brett Favre was back dominating sports headlines.

[AJ Delario]

If you go back, like, Brett Favre was kind of holding sports media hostage every summer when he would decide whether or not he was going to retire. And that summer was the same thing. It became the major news story was, will he retire? Who will he play for?

And I was in a bad mood that day when I saw that this was actually the news story that everyone was talking about Brett Favre. And I always basically like, fuck this. I'm going to put everyone on blast. Thinking mostly that I was putting honestly, like, sports journalists on blast. Like, basically, you know, you guys know about this. I believe this person. And I think to add credibility, I used the email from her telling me not to use it. Right. Thinking that that actually gave it a little more credibility and weight to it, and thinking that someone would come forward and say, just like, yeah, this is 100 true. And then the story would naturally evolve from there. And one of the first calls I got was someone from a. A major sports network. We'll say, who was just like, yeah, everybody knows about this, but we can't do this. Like, it's Brett Favre basically, is the biggest story around. We're not burning Brett Farre. The end. And.

I think that just made me more determined that if I did get any sort of response of someone who had proof that I was going to go with it, and. And I told her that, too. And, you know, at that point, she had stopped talking to me and understood. Right.

[Anna Sale]

Is that right, Jen?

[AJ Delario]

Yeah.

[Jen Sturger]

I mean, I was actually at a photo shoot for the promo shots and commercials for my new sports show I had coming up when AJ Called me and was like, hey, why don't you come into the office and we can talk about this? And I just remember being like, oh, this is bad. And I ran it past my management team at the time, and they were like, absolutely not. You will not be going into the Gawker office. Are you insane? Just ignore it. And so I don't think I responded to AJ Much, but I do think at one point, I sent an email that was like, hey, man, I can't be involved in this. And, like, if there was any way that, like, you guys could out him for being the person he is without me being involved, that would be one thing. But I can't, Like, I can't be attached to this, you know, just because I finally got my life back on track, I. I have my own show coming up. I was back on the air, and this just wasn't gonna end well for me.

[Anna Sale]

Jen asked AJ not to run the story. She said she wouldn't cooperate as a source. But AJ Started looking for other ways to get access to the voicemails and explicit photos. AJ found someone who had them and would sell them to Deadspin.

[AJ Delario]

They were in Florida and they said they'd fly up for ten grand and I would pay for their flight and they'd give me all that stuff for. For ten grand. And.

I went to my. My bosses at the time at Gawker, and like I said, I mean, we were encouraged to pay for stories if they did have them and how it would work. It was almost like a book advanced. Right. If I got paid $10,000 and then whatever sort of, you know, conversion rate for page views, like, you would have to earn out or else you would. You would not get your page view bonus for however long until afterwards. So as long as you earned out and were successful with it, obviously it could be transformative for a site. And we only had, like three people that were full time at Deadspin at that time.

[Anna Sale]

So you thought, this is at least a $10,000 story for me.

[AJ Delario]

I was willing to bet that it was if it had worked out the way that I thought it would. Yeah.

[Anna Sale]

So it is a $10,000 story and then some. When it's published, it's everywhere. Your face is everywhere talking about the story, including on television interviews. And you're being asked about how you got the story and people. You admit openly that you paid for the story.

And at one point.

You say to a television. This is in the documentary. You say to a television interviewer, if there are two scumbags at the end of this, it's myself and Brett Favre.

[AJ Delario]

Well, look, I mean, I said to a couple people at the end of this, if there are two scumbags out of this situation, it's myself and Brett Favre.

[Anna Sale]

Do you remember saying that?

[AJ Delario]

Oh, yeah, I do. And there was an interesting part about that. When I did ask to have the $10,000 to pay this, part of the stipulation was, you know, okay, well, you're going to promote this and you're going to go on all the television shows and all the interview shows. And I did it all.

But, yeah, it wasn't. I didn't like it.

[Anna Sale]

When you were putting the piece together that was going to go up on the Internet.

[AJ Delario]

Yeah.

[Anna Sale]

Among the photos that are included is a picture of Jen.

[AJ Delario]

Yeah.

[Anna Sale]

On the top of the article, Right?

[AJ Delario]

Sure.

[Anna Sale]

Her body, what she looks like, her name.

Did that give you pause?

[AJ Delario]

No, it didn't.

You know, because, I mean, I mean, I think one we used was basically the New York jets press photo that was circulating around with it, I think.

And. But it was, you know, obviously, I mean, when you run a picture of Jen on the site, I mean, it does give a whole different shape to this story. Right? I mean, you know, I mean, how do I say this respectfully?

[Anna Sale]

Well, it's a sexy photo. I mean, she's in like a Jets. A Jets shirt, but it's like a sexy photo. So it's a photo of Brett Favre's bad behavior with a sexy woman's picture attached to it.

[AJ Delario]

But it's also because she had been such a personality and a presence, it's not like she wasn't well known too. Right. People knew who she was. So I didn't think it was anything that I thought about too heavily. I was just like, oh, well, this is how she presents herself. This is what the jets are putting out there. So why isn't this the photo that we would use? You know, it didn't matter if it was like a sexy photo as long as she was wearing Jet stuff. Right. I mean, for me.

[Anna Sale]

Uh huh. Do you want to say anything to that, Jen?

[Jen Sturger]

Which part?

You know.

It'S interesting because I. I look back on.

I look back on so much of this, and.

I got emotional when AJ was talking, and it has nothing to do with what AJ's saying, and it more has to do with being able to put myself back in that time period so easily.

And just how.

Violating of an experience it is. And I know that sounds crazy as a woman who made her living or who got. Who got discovered because of how she looked, you know, like, I wasn't on television and people weren't like, look how big her brains are. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't. That's not why I got discovered. But you have to remember at the time, this was in the mid-2000s.

A certain aesthetic was rewarded by society.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah, that was your currency. Yeah.

[Jen Sturger]

Yes. And I played the game. I played the game. I was the girl that, like, looked like a pinup but could talk about football. I think today kids call that a pick me. But, like, really?

[Host of Question Everything]

Yes.

[Jen Sturger]

But truly knowing what I know now about myself, that was all a mask. And I think that was the hardest part for me is knowing that it was a mask. And I always, just. When I would talk about it to people back in the day, I would describe the way I presented in public as kind of like my wrestling gimmick, for lack of a better word. You know, I was like. I was. I was like, this is a character. This is a caricature of myself. And to that point, there felt like there was a level of insulation between who Jen was as a person and who I presented to the public. So when people made fun of me, I would just be like. Or they would talk badly about me. I was like, they don't know me. And suddenly with this story, those lines became very blurred, even for myself. Because it's one thing to be in your mid-20s and figuring out who you are. It's another to have the Internet screaming at you what they think you are. And I think the Internet told me who I was before I had a chance to figure that out for myself. And they got it wrong. They got it wrong. They didn't know who I was. You know, it was just like they looked at pictures. And that's all I was. And to be fair to aj, like, he didn't know me as a human being. He knew me as a picture and as a girl on the Internet. And that's what everybody knew me as.

[Anna Sale]

Coming up, after eight years of no contact, Jen and AJ run into each other again when AJ and his wife are moved by an ad for a stray puppy at a crowded shelter.

[AJ Delario]

I heard the gasp, right? And she shows me the name of the rescue person is Jen Sturger. And we both do some Googling, basically, just like, is this the person that I had brought burned years ago? And it turned out that it was. And I said, well, I guess this dog will die, because there's no way that this person's gonna give me this dog.

[Host of Question Everything]

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Hi, it's Reece Gorman, congressional reporter and host of the brand new podcast on Notice. This is the new podcast from Notice, the nonpartisan newsroom covering politics and policy in Washington, D.C. each week, I'll bring you real conversations with members of Congress and those who make the Hill run. And it's packed into just 30 minutes, so you can learn a lot without taking too much time out of your busy day. Join me for On Notice. That's notice spelled N o T U s available every Monday wherever you get your podcast or on YouTube.

[Anna Sale]

This is Death, sex and money from Slate. I'm Anna Sale. AJ Delario's career took off after the Favre story on Deadspin. He was profiled by GQ and promoted to editor in chief of Gawker in 2011.

[Jen Sturger]

He.

[Anna Sale]

He was just the man for the job, someone making new rules or really breaking old ones for a new era of viral Internet journalism. AJ Was going to get your attention, and it worked. A lot of us paid a lot of attention. And then another story about a famous sports figure landed AJ in court and bankrupted his company. AJ Delario, the man behind Gawker's posting of that now infamous Hulk Hogan sex tape, taking the stand and taking some hits.

[AJ Delario]

Those are your words. Yes.

[Jen Sturger]

Are you laughing there?

[Host of Question Everything]

Yep.

[Anna Sale]

Lawyers for the Hulk Hulk Hogan sued Gawker and AJ Delario personally after the site published a video of Hogan having sex. After years of litigation, a jury found them liable. It led to a settlement of more than $30 million and the end of that era of Gawker Media. The Hogan trial ended a lot of other things for A.J. delario, including the flagrant drinking and drug use that characterized his time as Gawker editor.

[AJ Delario]

I gotten sober in 2016, and part of getting sober through the Alcoholics Anonymous program where I was doing the 12 steps. And in one of the steps, it's the eighth one, where you make a list of all people you had harmed. Right. And a willingness to make amends to them all. And, you know, I had a sponsor at the time when I made this list of people, and there were people that, you know, I hurt at Deadspin who were semi famous people and, and, and whatever. And, and Jen was on that list. And, and they had really explained to me that it's like, you know, will, if you go reach out to these people, do you think that'll do more harm to them as opposed to good? And are you doing it for, like, selfish reasons to make yourself feel better? Like, is it kind of a. A vacant apology? Right. And. Yeah, and I, and I, and I. She was obviously on that list. And I was just.

[Anna Sale]

How long was that list of people from work?

[AJ Delario]

I have it somewhere. It was Like a dozen easily.

But, you know, I knew that she was in la, and I just moved to LA to be with my, my now wife. And, you know, of course I, I thought about the situation of just like, you know, maybe, maybe there is something that I should kind of return to. Not right away, but eventually down the road. But 2018, you know, I had already had my, my first child and we were celebrating my wife's birthday and we were talking about having a dog at some point. But she was also like, you know, I think seven months pregnant with her second child. And it was like bringing a puppy into that sort of situation was not something that I think either one of us were really equipped to handle at that point.

[Anna Sale]

But you have a one year old and a seven month. Like your wife is seven months pregnant. Yes.

[AJ Delario]

And okay, but she was on Instagram and had gotten. I think it was Kat Dennings, the actress, who had like, pushed out a rescue shelter photo for that because it was 4th of July and the kill shelters are overrun at that point, that these three dogs needed help. And Julianne shows me the picture, and it looks exactly like the dog I had when I grew up. Right. And what's it look like? It's like a. We had like a white lab mix, right. And his name was. Was Polar. My dad had a little trouble with his Philly accent, so instead of Polar, it was Polar. So, but, you know, when I saw the picture, I was just like, oh, my God, it's Polar. Well, we have to get this dog right. This is fate, right, that this dog comes into my life at this time.

[Anna Sale]

AJ's wife, Julianne emailed the rescue group and got a response that a volunteer named Jen Sturger was assigned to bring the puppy by, to get to know the family. That Jen Sturger, she was serving on the board of a nonprofit that places shelter dogs in new homes. When he heard her name, AJ thought after years of leaving her alone, he ought to reach out.

[AJ Delario]

I emailed Jen and I was like, hey, you know, I, I know my name's showing up in your inbox, and this is probably startling to you. And then I just tried to kind of explain my situation. Like, I, you know, I have a wife now, I have a kid on the way. We. We just want a dog. It's like, and I'm so sorry and I understand if you're not going to be able to, to give it to us. I, I do. But at some point, I would really love to talk to you. And I'm paraphrasing here.

[Anna Sale]

But.

[AJ Delario]

But. And then I think she emailed back and kind of very solemn. She just like, yeah, I went on Instagram and Julianne's page, and I put the two together after a while, and.

That was. And that was kind of it. Still not knowing full well if she was going to be the one dropping off the dog.

[Anna Sale]

Okay, Jen, so you just get notified when there's a family interested in meeting this dog. Yeah.

[Jen Sturger]

You become a lead on an animal, you know, and so you have, like, case files. And this was one of my case files were these three puppies that were found out in the desert with their feral mom. And I had gone out to the desert to pick up these dogs, and the mom was too scared to be adopted, but the puppies were still young enough that they could be molded, you know, as long as we got them into good homes that were understanding. You know, like, that's the thing with rescue dogs is you don't really know what they've been through. And I take that rescue work very seriously. And it's always been a big part of my life working with animals. I think I like animals more than people, for good reason.

[Anna Sale]

So as you're doing this work that's like.

It'S insulated from all this other stuff. It's your safe space. It's where you can be of service. It's where you experience really pure love. When you figured out that it was his family, what was your first set of reactions?

[Jen Sturger]

Look, I could have passed the dog off to one of my rescue partners.

But I do think there was a part of me that was like, I had not had any contact with AJ at this point for over eight years, you know, and.

I had done a lot of work on myself. Me too had happened. The landscape had changed. And I don't know exactly why. I was like, no, I can go and I can do this for myself. I honestly, I think it's because I wanted him to just see that I was a real person, you know, And I think that that's something that.

I. For better or for worse, I often think that if I can be in a room with somebody.

I can change the way they see me.

I say I give good room, but the truth is, I think that meeting me in person is so different from the experience you have of me online.

[Anna Sale]

You had never met in person during all of your courses.

[Jen Sturger]

We had never met in person, which is crazy, because the other part of the story is I had never met Brett Favre.

[Anna Sale]

Uhhuh.

[Jen Sturger]

You know, all of the men that were the Cause of my downfall. I've never actually met in person up until this point.

[Anna Sale]

So then what was it like to see him in person?

[Jen Sturger]

I don't think we said much to each other. The day I actually dropped off the dog, it was very much like business, because I wanted to make sure that the dog was gonna adjust well in the household, that they understood the dog had different needs than a lot of other animals would.

But the dog bonded instantly with his son. Like, it was so clear that this is where that dog was supposed to be, because this dog was terrified of everyone and just instantly lit up with his son. And I was like, well, I can't take this dog out of here. You know what I mean? Like. And they were on board with all of the advice I was giving them in terms of what the dog would need, and they didn't seem deterred by it, and they were willing to put in the work, you know. And like I said, I don't think AJ and I really interacted a ton.

[Anna Sale]

The dog became a part of AJ's family. They named him Nesta.

[AJ Delario]

I think it was maybe a day or two later I thanked her for Nesta, and I was just like, look, I'd still like to talk to you.

[Anna Sale]

Jen agreed to meet and catch up. They sat together at a place called House of Pies in la. And it was emotional.

[Jen Sturger]

I still wonder to this day what people thought was happening. Cause I pretty sure, like, I teared up a couple of times. I was like, people think I'm like, he's breaking up with me or something. Like, people probably had no idea what this conversation actually was.

[AJ Delario]

Get this lady some pie over here. She's having a tough day.

[Anna Sale]

Part of it was that being with AJ brought everything back up for Jen. But AJ also wanted to tell her he got this in a way he hadn't before. Now that he'd also been at the center of a humiliating media story that felt like it crowded out everything else about him.

[AJ Delario]

I was less eager to make an amends to her, but I really wanted to talk to her and tell her. I. Look, we are. I can see you now in a way that I don't think most people can. We have the shared language and the shared experience that, you know, I. I had someone who kind of like, you know, helped me through. Through my. And if I could be that to her in this way, then I was going to do it right. And the person who helped me was. Was James Fry from, you know, A Million Little Pieces was the guy who essentially, you know, just Taught me about, you know, you're, you're able to kind of live a life that's bigger than this version of you that you think has been taken from you. And, you know, you, you can just like, take back your story if you take back your life. And I was so eager to share that with her. I was so eager to kind of just like, sit down and, and let her know that I understood. Like, like, I really, really got it. And, and I hope that she trusted me with that. Right. Because it was important. And that was like, the most important part to me was just like, look, I, I know how this feels now, you know, and like.

You can say anything you absolutely want to me, and I will get it, and I will get it probably more than most people would.

[Anna Sale]

So it was, that's distinct from amends. This is saying, I've had my life blown up and felt public humiliation.

[AJ Delario]

Reordered was the verb that was used to me that I always hung onto. Right. Which was just like, you know, I had my identity wrapped up in this one thing that I thought was, was this very important part of my life, which was basically just, you know, being a provocateur. No, I mean, working at Gawker was really important part of my life. And, you know, obviously it had blown up spectacularly. I was also going to be kind of, you know, connected to this iconic sports figure forever and ever in a way that I didn't necessarily. Like, I totally felt like my.

That I was dehumanized and no longer. I was just a plot point and a character and no longer a human. Like, I knew all of this stuff intimately at that point. I was working through that, like, you know, at the same time.

And, you know, I, I think I explained it to her. I was just like, look, we kind of have the same limp now, right? And I, I, I think we can connect on this, and I think that this could be a good thing.

[Anna Sale]

So just to frame that time of your life, I was reading back an esquire piece from 2017.

And there's a paragraph not all that long ago. As the editor in chief of Gawker.com, delario was among the most influential and feared figures in media. Now the 42 year old is unemployed. His bank has frozen his life savings of $1,500 and a12. $100 per month. One bedroom is all he can afford.

Is that a piece that you look at?

[AJ Delario]

No, no. I mean, it's like.

I always kind of talk about my recovery in kind of two ways and like, you know, the drug and alcohol part, it was always a part of my life for a long period of time, but I don't think I ever officially had, like, a rock bottom, per se. And I don't think the trial necessarily was that for me either. That Esquire story was. That Esquire story was the moment where I was, like.

Frozen in a way that I couldn't understand. I couldn't understand because, I mean, I was living in Los Angeles when that profile was done. I had met Julianne. She was pregnant. I had a job, and none of that appeared in the story.

[Anna Sale]

Oh.

[AJ Delario]

And I remember asking the writer about it, and he was just like, well, that's not the story we're running.

I mean, Jen's nodding her head. I mean, it's just like, that's. That's it. I mean, it's just like you. I've lost control of who I am in the rest of the world. And the rest of the world is like, you are this person, and this is how you're going to be treated henceforth. Right. You know?

[Jen Sturger]

Yeah. And that's the. That's the very thing I've been working through since doing this Netflix documentary, because. And AJ probably has a similar experience.

When something like this happens to you and you're just kind of frozen in this moment in time where that is all people will remember you for. It feels so difficult to move forward from that, because even when you move forward, everyone else drags you back into it.

[AJ Delario]

Yeah, that's it.

[Jen Sturger]

Anytime they use that as the headline or this is how they introduce you with your byline. Like, as far as anybody on the Internet knows, that just knows me in passing, I will always be the Brett Favre girl. And that's what I think's been the hardest part for me, is feeling like no one can understand that experience.

And I feel like.

AJ and I are speaking the same language in this regard, where it's like, I think there's so many more people out there than we realize that feel like they are defined by this one mistake or this one thing, this one bad thing that happened to them, and they can't move forward from that.

And people ask me, like, why did you forgive aj? You know? And I think what it comes down to is.

AJ is the only person in this entire story that has ever come to me and looked me in the eye and told me he was sorry.

And I think.

That kind of apology and that kind of admittance to, like, hey, I know what I did to you, like, that was One of the first times in my life someone had done that for me.

And I mean, like, we're talking, like, tapping into some childhood shit. Like that is one of the first times someone looked at me and was like, I am truly sorry for what I did to you.

[AJ Delario]

And.

[Jen Sturger]

That'S why.

Feels right that only, like, I extend that grace to him, you know, because no one had ever done that to me. No one had ever given me that closure. Like, I still to this day, like, it's something that I struggle with in relationships is when people hurt me and they don't apologize and there's no mending.

It's so hard to move on. And it's like we have to give each other that, you know, we have to give each other the capability of healing and, like, admitting when we've done something wrong.

[Anna Sale]

It's been several years now since AJ and Jen reconnected and they've kept in regular touch. So, aj, when you reached out to Jen to do that follow up meetup, to say, like, there's things I get now that I didn't then.

Like, what.

How would you describe, like, what kind of friendship did that start? What's your relationship now?

[Host of Question Everything]

How.

[Anna Sale]

How are you in touch? And when do you find yourselves reaching out to one another?

[AJ Delario]

I mean, I have.

A nice little circle of people now that have gone through some sort of public disgrace. And then when any time, like, anytime Brett Favre's in the news, I will reach out to her. If Hulk Hogan's in the news, she will reach out to me. Like, I mean, and we can have this conversation, right? And just check in on each other, right? And. And know that knowing that it comes from, like, a good place, which is basically just like, for me, it's. Sometimes it's enough just if she says something to me, it'll take me out of spinning, right? It'll be just like, oh, right. There's. There's actually, there's. There's someone who is. Is. Is hearing behind this echo, who's basically just like, trying to make the echo stop for me in that moment. Right. You know?

[Host of Question Everything]

Yeah.

[Jen Sturger]

It's interesting. AJ equated it one day. He was like, have you ever had that experience where, like, someone just says one word and it makes you want to throw a table through a window?

And I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, I feel like Bucky Winter Soldier sometimes. And it's like a random word that, like, no one else will know what it is. No one else will understand that it's a trigger. And I'LL be like, before I know it, I'm off to the races. My brain is off to the races. And it's just so nice to have someone that speaks the same language as you. Go, hey, put the table down, Jen.

[Anna Sale]

I validate your feelings, and you want to throw the table.

[Host of Question Everything]

However.

[AJ Delario]

Well, I figured when the Mississippi thing happened, I was just like, hey, slowly. In the news today. How you doing? You know.

[Jen Sturger]

You know, AJ's helped me through other scenarios where I've been.

In relationships with people who had substance abuse issues and didn't know how to deal with it. And honestly, when I look back, saw that a lot of people I had been in relationships with had substance abuse issues, and being able to.

Talk to somebody from the other side that could explain to me what I could do to take my power back, even in those situations where I felt helpless was super helpful. Like, I listen to AJ's podcast, you know, I support him. I think the work that he's doing for that community is amazing, and I feel like he deserves to be able to evolve and move on just as much as I do, you know? And I think that it helps sometimes to have somebody to hold that mirror up and be like, hey, you deserve to move forward. You deserve to be something more than the Gawker Dick pic guy, because the work he's doing now is so much more important than that and so much bigger than that. Honestly, probably feels what he's been called to do. I don't want to speak for him, but I just did.

[Anna Sale]

I feel like what you were saying, like, how he deserves to. He deserves to feel, you know, affection, like you're. You're putting words to what. Also, what it can feel like when a dog loves you without all those words. Like, a dog doesn't care what history you've brought into the room if you make them feel loved and safe. Like, the. What can happen between you and an animal. Like, it's. I still. Like, when you think about that this dog, this puppy who was living in the desert is now a member of AJ's family. And, Jen, you brought that puppy into AJ's family and you had this history. Like, when you tell yourself this actually happened in real life, like, what. What do you make of this story, Right? Like, it's. I mean, aj. Like, what do you.

Do you find yourself, like, ascribing some kind of higher power to it? Do you find yourself just feeling in awe of what can happen that you're not in control of? Like, what do you find. What do you make of It.

[AJ Delario]

Yeah. I mean, I think I could tell this story like all the time, like once a week. And still, it still is shocking to me.

[Host of Question Everything]

Me.

[AJ Delario]

And still I'm waiting for people to really get what's going on. I'm just like, no, you don't understand, like, how much this person really despised me and really kind of held me as responsible for some of her most painful moments in her life.

[Anna Sale]

The one thing that I do want to just clarify and see if you see it this way, like, AJ wanted to reach out because he felt like he understood what you had gone through having with the Hulk Hogan trial and having his career blow up and it be in the press.

Your story is different from his because you didn't do anything.

Like you.

[Jen Sturger]

That's fair. That's very fair.

[Anna Sale]

Dick pics sent to you and voicemails.

[Jen Sturger]

But listen, I think that that's what people don't understand is I.

Take plenty ownership of the oversharing that caused this. I can't control what people did with that information, but I've owned all the parts of this that were me. And I feel like what's really crazy is why is the person that was technically the victim in this situation the only person that's taking accountability for their part? You know, there was never any accountability on the other side or by the industry that perpetuated it. The NFL's never apologized to me. The people that gave me bad advice have never apologized to me. Brett Favre has certainly never apologized to me. And I think if for no other reason than to have peace for yourself, like you have to forgive people for yourself, because hanging onto just hurts you.

[Anna Sale]

That's Jen Sturger and aj they both live in la, where Jen performs stand up and also trains other standups, particularly women, in how to turn their own challenging experiences into narratives they control. Jen is at the center of the new documentary on Netflix about Brett Favre called the Fall of Favre. AJ Delario runs the site the Small Bow. It's an online magazine and recovery community and podcast and it's great. I'm subscribed and I always open what they send me. You can find [e-mail].

[Host of Question Everything]

And that was Anna Sale, host of Death, Sex and Money. This episode first ran back in May. It was produced by Andrew Dunn. Thanks to the team and to Slate for letting us share it with you. Be sure to check out more of the show Death, Sex and Money, wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back with a new episode of Question Everything next Thursday with the story of a woman who believed a terrible, harmful lie for years and then suddenly realized, wait, that wasn't true at all.

[Jen Sturger]

What I had been told was so outrageous that it was like, wow. I can't believe I ever even thought that this was real.

[Host of Question Everything]

See you next time.

[Jen Sturger]

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