Ben Smith (3:38)

You are really in the middle of essentially an information war with the Trump administration. It's one that's being conducted mostly like in videos, out of context videos, images. We notice your press office is now sending out press releases sometimes that are just only images and that you're filming a lot of TikToks. And I'm curious how you think about a world where like, on one hand there is arguments over what really happened and the other hand there's just a lot of images and videos and things that are a little harder to get your arms around. Like is this, can you win arguments or do you just have to get more views?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (4:10)

I don't know about winning arguments, but here's what my deep concern has been and why we react this way. Communicating, as you described, ICE and CBP customers and Border Patrol and the Department of Homeland Security, not to mention the White House, are regularly putting out false information. And they're doing it either in reaction to something that they did on the ground, some incitement that they created on the ground, or just because they wanna denigrate somebody or something about Chicago. And some of what they're putting out is hard to respond to right away because we may not know the facts as they have reported them. What we have seen though, because we're, I think, diligent about sending out videos and, you know, telling the true story is we're, you know, we're able to prove that much of what they're saying is false. Now I try very hard to make sure that what we're putting out is fact. And that's why you see a lot of videos and pictures, as opposed to like, DHS will put out a press release claiming something about an incident. There was the killing of Silverio Villegas Vargas on the ground in Franklin park just a couple of weeks ago. And they claimed that they killed him because he had seriously injured an officer and dragged him for quite some ways in his car, et cetera. We didn't know when they put that information out what was true because we weren't there on the ground. But we discovered in the next two days, because of local media that went and interviewed everybody that was standing around there at the time, that actually that wasn't true. And indeed, the officer himself, the agent said, I wasn't seriously injured, and yet they killed this man for it. So that's just an example. But it's been important for us to get the facts and put the truth out, because over time, what's happening is the public is beginning to see that ICE and CBP are not telling the truth. And I'm at least trying to get as many facts out as fast as possible so people can understand. And people are beginning to see, again, that we're telling the truth. They're not.

Max Tani (6:29)

How do you get the sense that people believe what you guys are saying versus what the White House is saying? Why do you think that that's changing? What's giving you that impression?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (6:38)

First, that just, you know, an anecdotal on the ground, people walk up to me and talk to me about it, that they saw something in the news, and then they found out, because we had put video out or because the local media had. Had done it, that. That. That what the feds had said wasn't true. That's part of it. Anecdotal. But also because we're starting that people are showing up at peaceful protests across Chicago, not just at the ICE facility the way you guys see sometimes, but in neighborhoods. They're showing up because they have begun to see that they're not getting the truth. And I have asked everybody in Chicago that when they see ICE agents or CBP in the neighborhoods, pull your phone out, video everything, post it or send it to local media. And more and more, that's exactly what's happening. Virtually everything that people can video, they are now. And we're getting it from multiple angles. And on top of that, we have our police videos that we've set up in places where we know there are protests because we want to make sure that ICE is not abusing its power. I'm saying it. I'll say it a little differently. We know they are. And we think that having cameras there, especially cameras from state police that are videoing what ICE is doing on the ground, shooting people with pepper pellets or with rubber bullets, and that's happening without any provocation. We want to make sure that that's on official video or on just bystander video.

Ben Smith (8:21)

Before we talk today, I emailed with Trisha McLaughlin, the spokeswoman for DHS. And one of the things I asked her, there's a kind of remarkable tweet she has. Somebody had posted a video of a 15 year old girl being dragged into a car protesting, and she said, you've got this all wrong. This isn't ice. And I think she was wrong. In fact, it was ice. I asked her why she didn't take it that down. She didn't say. But she did also send me over a list of posts debunking Governor Pritzker's lies. And I don't want to kind of go point by point, but just based on what you said, you're asking people to film these federal agents essentially like they're an occupying power, like they're invaders. And I think their point is these are federal government workers. Whatever you like about the policy or don't like about the policy. Trump was elected promising to send ICE agents into cities to arrest undocumented immigrants. Clearly the federal government has a right to do that. And I think at some level their objection is that you're treating that as illegitimate when it's basically legitimate. What do you say to that?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (9:20)

You know, we've had ice in Chicago for, I don't know, 20 years, I'm not sure how long, but a long time. Long time before I was governor and before Trump was president. And we've had, we've never had Customs and Border Patrol, and we should talk about that. But look, I welcome whether it's ICE or local or federal help with civilian law enforcement, I welcome their help taking the worst of the worst criminals, whether they're immigrants or otherwise, off the streets. So I want that help. And we've had it in the past. What we've seen with ICE now and now with CBP on the ground, and they've conscripted FBI agents and people from other agencies to join in the ICE endeavor is that they're under the direction of Gregory Bevino from cbp, who was the culprit leading the effort that caused mayhem on the streets of la. Under his direction, they're carrying out their duties in ways that we've never seen before. Abusing people, dragging People around people are brown or black. They're literally just being stopped. Like, show me your papers. And if they don't have papers, they're being detained. U.S. citizens. We've had many, many videos. I hope you have seen this. Many, many videos of ICE agents wearing their masks, wearing their camouflage uniforms and demanding that people prove their citizenship and when they can't, again, being thrown in the back of a vehicle. So this is what they're doing. It's improper, and that's my point. They shouldn't be doing any of this. They have duties, but they're carrying them out in ways that we've never seen before. And they're claiming that this is in an environment of, you know, everything's on fire and there's, you know, there's murders going on on every street corner. You know, they just have this overall narrative they're telling. And so I'm trying to debunk as much of that as I can. When she says that, you know, I'm not giving proper respect. They're not respecting the people of the city of Chicago or the people of Illinois, and they're not respecting our local law enforcement either. They give us no information, no heads up on anything that they're doing. We would like to know, so that we can prevent protesters possibly from doing something wrong or just, you know, we don't want a mistake where police show up because they hear someone's getting attacked on a street corner by someone who's masked and, you know, and find out that's an ICE agent. So we'd like to have communication. We get zero, zero communication. So I don't have much respect for the way they're operating their agencies right now.

Max Tani (12:06)

So Gavin Newsom has rolled out this communication strategy where he's basically doing, you know, a Trump impression. He's doing these all caps, tweets, they're doing these AI generated videos. You seem to be taking a different tact. I don't think that you're. I don't see you doing something like that. How do you kind of combat the way that this administration is pushing aggressively on social media and kind of like that in that tone and kind of dominating through this kind of aggressive tone.

Governor J.B. Pritzker (12:32)

Look, I think pushing back in whatever way you can is appropriate, especially as I've just described how they're abusing their power. But. And you know, and I enjoy the mocking that I read, you know, that he does, but I got to say, have a different method. Maybe it's because I'm a Midwesterner, Maybe you Know, we're. You know, we just think differently here. And also, you know, my own background makes me take this extremely seriously, what they're doing on the ground. And I'm not suggesting anybody else isn't, but just for me, it's hard for me to make a joke out of much of it. You know, I spent 10 years standing up with. Sitting down with, working with Holocaust survivors to build a Holocaust museum. And there's a lot you learn when you learn the history of the Nazis in Germany and what happened to those survivors. And in addition to that, I mean, just having been an activist on behalf of civil rights and someone who believes in social justice, part of my religion, and what I've been doing my whole life, I mean, when I see what they're doing, it looks like every authoritarian regime we've seen around the world, putting troops on the ground in cities, scaring people, trying to intimidate people, and then targeting people based on the color of their skin, all of that is incredibly offensive to me. And then it's not just offensive to me because it's happening across the country. It's right in my state and in my home city, and we are being targeted day in and day out, and there's no reprieve. And so I just. I don't know how to describe what my reaction is, except this is how I feel. And so I'm trying to protect the people of my state and. And protect the people of the city of Chicago in every way I can. And some of that has to be, you know, we're going to court, and we're winning so far, but, you know, we're going to court, winning. We're educating people on the ground about knowing their rights and making sure they keep themselves and their neighbors safe. We're also asking people to, you know, video and everything they see is evidence for cases, too, and then finally show up and peacefully. Protest is an American right and responsibility, indeed, when you think that rights are being taken away. So I don't know. That's how I react. And I haven't really thought about, you know, a strategy for it. It's just how I feel.

Ben Smith (15:09)

Are there tweets, are there public statements hurting them or helping them in court?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (15:13)

You're talking about ICE and dhs.

Ben Smith (15:16)

Yeah. I mean, is that coming into these cases?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (15:18)

It is. In fact, this morning, the, you know, the judge basically questioned the credibility. Again, this is a different case than the National Guard case. This is the case that was brought privately against ice, and there's a TRO on ice and this morning, the judge essentially said, I want all ICE officers with body cameras from now on. Because what they're saying is incredible. And we're getting evidence that what they're saying is false. So even in court, you know that now that we. And she cited in particular videos that she had seen.

Max Tani (15:54)

So, you know, you mentioned a few minutes ago that, you know, you're not totally, you're not hearing very much from this administration directly. Yesterday it was pretty notable. Zoran Mamdani went on Fox News and he tried to speak directly to the President. You know, he went direct to the camera and said, trump, if you're listening, and, you know, kind of tried to get his message out there. Have you considered doing something like that? If you feel like, you know, maybe Trump isn't. And I've heard you on other, you know, on other podcasts say that, you know, you think that Trump is getting information filtered through folks like Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller. Have you considered going directly through something like Fox?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (16:31)

I haven't, but I communicated a whole lot and made sure that people know my message, which, you know, is a message to the President. It's also a message about what the administration is doing. But I've said directly, like, listen, if you believe that we need help, and I do too, by the way, that we always need help to fight crime, crime, but this, what you're suggesting, doing now, what you are doing now is not helping. And so instead, if you want to help us, please send us civilian law enforcement, FBI, so we can go get the gangs. How about ATF so we can get the guns and dea? We've got some of those on the ground and they're terrific. We work with them all the time. And I have it throughout my governorship, but we could always use more. And guns are pouring over the border from surrounding states that don't have similar protections for people, gun safety laws that we do. You know, we ban assault weapons, for example, in Illinois, but none of the surrounding states do. And so guess what? It's very easy for someone, you know, a bad guy to go across the border and go get one and try to bring it back to Illinois. And we have firearm interdiction task forces that we work with ATF on. We could use more. And so I've said that directly to the camera many, many times on lots of places. I'm not just going on, you know, MSNBC or, you know, whatever left wing or Democratic podcast, but, but lots of places. And I have to think that the President has seen that I Mean, going on Fox, you know, is just another tactic. So, you know, that's maybe somebody else's choice. I tend to think that Fox, as you know, everything that they do on Fox is to not get true information out there and to not give people a proper platform. So I don't know whether Zoran Mandani will get listened to, but I can tell you I've not been quiet. Nobody thinks that I haven't been communicative about what we want, what we need and what we don't want for the city of Chicago and the state.

Max Tani (18:37)

Are you consuming the kind of conservative media that is, you know, in some cases the conservative media has done these ride alongs with dhs. Have you been paying attention to the conservative media and its coverage of what's going on in Chicago? And what do you think about how the kind of conservative media has been covering what's going on there?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (18:55)

Well, it seeps into my feed even if I'm not looking for it. And actually recently one of those influencers, right wing influencers, came to my house, this is right after Charlie Kirk was murdered, came to my house and stood in front of my house, recorded a lengthy video essentially saying that I am the enemy and that people should understand that I am causing the environment that led to Charlie Kirk's death. Now you can imagine that people who are listening to that might choose to act on that, especially in that environment of that week. And I have to say those right wing podcasters, what they're doing is causing danger and potentially essentially fomenting violence. When we had Texas legislators here in Chicago when they were trying to avoid the quorum, we had to make sure they were secure and we had them at a hotel in the suburbs. And apparently one of the, one of those right wing influencers discovered where they were and then posted on his feed where they were and suggested that people might want to come. And so we had to move them.

Ben Smith (20:21)

I mean, that doesn't sound that different from what people are doing with ICE agents right now. And I mean, there's a whole fight over whether that's allowed, whether Facebook should take it down.

Governor J.B. Pritzker (20:31)

Yeah, but look, doxing, nobody thinks that's. I don't think anybody thinks that's a good idea. But what they're taking down, a lot of what they're taking down is simply critical posts about, like I showed up in this neighborhood, not about the specific individuals. I think we shouldn't have doxxing. But I do think that it's okay for people to post about, you know, this neighborhood. Has been, you know, invaded by ICE or CBP and that they've improperly held people, that sort of thing. But unfortunately, Facebook is not being careful about what they are taking down and they're just taking whole sites down entire. So I'm concerned about that. It is very different in my view. What these guys are doing is that these right wing podcasters anyway is putting people in danger and that I think should be acted upon. If Facebook's gonna do something to stop doxxing, they should also stop people who are encouraging violence. And one other thing that local media here has been so vitally important for just telling the truth. And some of that gets out into social media. You know, it's traditional media, but it's so close to the subject. These, these right wing influencers and, and, and others who show up, you know, from somewhere else and they don't really know the city and they don't understand all the dynamics are reporting things that just aren't accurate or they take a little segment and try to make it seem like that's the whole city. Our local media here have done actually a really good job of covering the broad swath of what's really going on. You know, I think you mentioned that you had seen some video maybe of, you know, of a protest here or there. It's true. There's sometimes a protest gets out of hand and we have local law enforcement that are helping to deal with that. You can imagine the very small Broadview, Illinois police force that's not in Chicago. That's where the ICE facility is. 31 people belong to that police force. You know, they have to cover all those shifts with 31 people. And now they got this, you know, a couple hundred people protesting every day. They needed help. And so we have state law enforcement, county law enforcement working with that local law enforcement. So we're doing our part to keep people safe. You know, it's, it's, it's the right wing podcasters and those who are, you know, intending to cause mayhem on the ground are, are, you know, seeping into these environments and causing real problems.

Max Tani (23:10)

Well, we have a lot more that we want to get to with Governor Pritzker, but we have to take a short break. So we'll be right back with more after this.

Ben Smith (23:23)

Hey, y'.

Max Tani (23:23)

All.

Ben Smith (23:23)

Each week on the Sam Sanders show from kcrw, we ask big questions and.

Max Tani (23:28)

Share hot takes about the pop culture we love. Now that we have YouTube, we don't need any more biopics if they've been.

Governor J.B. Pritzker (23:35)

Alive such that I can watch them on YouTube.

Max Tani (23:37)

I don't need it.

Governor J.B. Pritzker (23:37)

I don't think that music is getting worse. I think y' all just don't listen to artists who aren't in the mainstream.

Max Tani (23:43)

Taylor Swift, retire.

Governor J.B. Pritzker (23:44)

It's time to retire.

Brian Reed (23:45)

The Sam Sanders show from KCRW, wherever.

Ben Smith (23:48)

You get your podcast and on YouTube.

Max Tani (23:58)

Chicago is the home city of former President Barack Obama. I was looking the other day at a picture of his presidential library, which is gonna be there. I mean, have you spoken with him? Have you heard from him since this all began?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (24:13)

When you say this all began. I have spoken with him since Trump took office, but since, let's say, August, early August, when we started to see the effort to invade Chicago with ICE and with federalized national gu. I have not spoken with him since then. I've spoken with a lot of other people and certainly people around him, and tried to get as much advice as I can about how to react to this. In fact, just this morning and just a couple of hours ago, I was together with and held a press conference with, but I had a meeting beforehand with a group of generals who, National Guard and generals from the army and rear admiral as well, to get advice from them about how to talk about what, what Trump is trying to do and what the real impact is on the military in terms of readiness, in terms of retention. These are real challenges because Donald Trump is trying to engage them in a political ploy and using National Guard and other troops as a way to frighten the people of the United States in great American cities. And that's not what people signed up for, and that's what these generals are kind of reiterating to me, their real concern about our national security as a result of what Donald Trump is doing.

Ben Smith (25:38)

Do you feel like this, what a crazy experience this must have been for you? I mean, I don't. This isn't what. This sort of isn't what anybody signs up for. And I'm curious, like, I guess, in some sense what you've learned. Like, I think that you've changed. You've had to change your style of communicating to some degree, your style of governing amid this kind of crisis where you're at odds with the federal government. Is there stuff you feel like you've learned here?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (26:01)

Yeah, Ben, you know, I took office in January of 2019, and I would remind you the other day, my chief of staff and I were kind of lamenting that in my six and a half years in office, how many months can we count that were precedented times, not unprecedented. And the answer was maybe 8. Because I came in. There was a. Not only was Donald Trump in office, but also there was a budget crisis for the state of Illinois that I had to overcome in my first year in office and then finished that year and Covid, and then let's say a year, year and a half into Covid and all that's unprecedented started the wave of migrants being sent from Texas to Chicago. And, you know, and then, of course, we have Trump back in office now, which feels like Covid or like all the other unprecedented times. So. Learned anything? You know, the, the answer is you can't help but learn when you face all the challenges that we have, how to overcome them. But in terms of communication strategy, the thing that, that I guess I would take and I would point you back to is during COVID what's, what was very important to me and I think in terms of just governance important was even though we didn't know everything every day about, you know, what we needed to do, all of us, because the science hadn't caught up with the disease, I wanted to make sure that whatever facts we had that we put them out there to the public as fast as possible. Because people are confused. They're concerned that, you know, this is back in Covid, confused, concerned, afraid. And the more you can reassure them that they know everything or that we're giving them everything we know, I think it's, it gives people at least some foundation to stand upon. Same thing is true and same thing was true with the migrant crisis. Same thing is true now with the Trump crisis of National Guard and ICE in the cities. Whatever we know, when we know it, if we can, you know, if it's factual and we can put it out there. That's what I want to do. And I think that's communicating well and quickly, but factually is probably the biggest thing that I've, I don't know if I've learned it, but it's the biggest thing and most important thing I can do in a crisis.

Ben Smith (28:24)

That sometimes seems like it really disrupts the Trump people, too. Like when you, when you, I think you announced that Kristi Noem was coming to town and said told people to hide their pets. I mean, is that part of the strategy?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (28:35)

Well, yeah, that, that particular comment, I mean, I guess we were mocking in that regard, but. But yeah, part of the strategy was to make sure that in that case it was, we knew that she was coming to say things that were untrue. We just knew that. And she was coming to talk about, you know, the criminal immigrants and, you know, and how they're, you know, they need to go after the thousands of trends, you know, that are. And she went to Springfield, Illinois to do it, and she did it standing in front of the governor's mansion. Like, really? That's not where trend Aragua are, if they are anywhere. And second, it turns out they've arrested, well, one piece, one person legitimately in the city of Chicago who is part of trend so far. So they've claimed other things and then they've had to go back on it. So, yeah, I mean, when she came. And again, whenever we know, you know, that they're about to issue something that's false, we try to call it out as that. And then afterward to try to clean up the mess that they've left behind with their falsehoods.

Max Tani (29:43)

So, Governor, we know that you have a heart out very soon. Sadly, we can't do this forever. Even though it's a podcast, we could keep going for hours and hours, but you've got a few things that you've got to handle. One of the things that a lot of people are really interested in, that we talk about and that's changed our politics a lot recently, is the idea that all of our attention is fragmented and there's so much media that everybody is consuming that it's really hard for moments, certain moments to break through. And that something that is a big scandal or a big story one day is just totally gone from the news and from the news and from the people's attention and memory the week later. I'm really curious. Over the course of the last few weeks, maybe the last few months as this has unfolded, is there a particular media moment, a video, cable news hit, one of your, you know, one of your tweets or posts like this Kristi Noem thing that has really broken through that people that you see in real life have seemed to held onto and they seem to remember. Is there something that you can think of?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (30:46)

Wow. One thing you want me to mention, I mean, I guess I would say this. In this instant, last two months, let's say two and a half months, probably the first and biggest thing that broke through was when I went out and held a press conference on a water taxi on the river, you know, showing the beauty of the city of Chicago and pushing back on the idea that there's a war zone that the president was talking about. And then I think, to go along with that, what also broke through was we held a press conference later, just after that, with business leaders and pastors and nonprofit organization leaders and elected officials, and we did it together. And I think, you know, it was really a cross section of the entire city represented at this press conference. And I think that was surprising to everybody that, you know, that so many different types of people standing together to say to Donald Trump, please don't send troops here. We don't want troops. We have other things we'd like. You know, help us with housing, help us with healthcare, help us with fighting crime, with civilian law enforcement. But please don't send troops here. We don't want them. We don't need them. That broke through. I know that sounds, you know, maybe you like to think the Kimmel moment did, and maybe that did, but I think that that was a big one that people kind of began to see that our city is really gorgeous, that we stand together, that we're. The president is lying when he says that it's exploded somehow. And so I think that's what I can point to. We don't sit around and think, like, let's try to come up with a viral moment. You know, we are thinking about how do we best communicate to people what's really going on and make sure that it's credible. Because, you know, I think the contrast between their lies and us putting out credible information just. It feels like that's the right way to go. And it was what we did during COVID and it's what we're doing now during this crisis.

Ben Smith (32:57)

That is what struck me so much about that tweet that Tricia left up that. That mischaracterizes a video. I guess there's this question, like, does it actually matter if you get things right? Can you just put something false out and move on?

Governor J.B. Pritzker (33:08)

Well, they obviously think that you can if you just tell a lie enough times. Right. That old expression about a lie can make it all the way around the world before you can. The truth can lace up its sneakers. And it's true. I mean, it's true that that is what they believe, and they tell the lie over and over again so that people will, you know, maybe believe it. You know, eating dogs and cats on the streets in Ohio, you know, that kind of stuff. So, you know, it does work sometimes, but it only works if no one's really pushing back. Right. And you're not doing it in a way that's credible and that people are listening because they know you're a credible source. So that's what we're trying to be.

Max Tani (33:51)

Well, Governor, we know that you. You have to go. You've been very generous with your time. Ben did have one fun question that he wanted to end with. I know that there's a lot of. You have a lot of other things going on, but be. What did you have that you wanted to ask the governor?

Ben Smith (34:04)

I do feel I should ask. There's obviously a story going around that you had a good year at the blackjack table last year. And I guess I was curious if you bet on the Bears, if you're betting on them this season.

Governor J.B. Pritzker (34:18)

Thank you for asking that. I always. When you say betting on, I don't actually bet on it because I regulate that industry in the state, so I don't bet on the Bears. Not, not, not. Not here in Illinois or. I really don't place those bets anywhere. But. But I am always rooting for the Bears, honestly. And actually, thank goodness they kind of picked up. We had two bad games to start out the season. We've had a couple of good games. And so I'm, I'm pleased. Bears have not been terrific over the last. Well, not for quite a while. And. And I think Caleb is. Is picking it up for us. So I'm excited about the rest of the season.

Ben Smith (35:01)

All right, well, thank you so much for taking the time, Governor. We really appreciate it.

Max Tani (35:17)

So, Ben, I thought that was a really interesting interview. I thought he was pretty game to answer some of our questions. Though, as our producer this week, Manny, pointed out, the Bears are not a good team to. To bet on. So presumably his. His 1.4 million didn't come from that. But we had. We covered a few more interesting things besides. Besides the. The Bears. The Chicago Bears, which is, you know, I thought he had some really interesting things to say about their media strategy, which kind of surprised me. But, Ben, you booked the governor. You turned this. You managed to flip this from being a newsletter interview into a 30 minute conversation, which was really fascinating. What did you think about what Pritzker had to say about navigating this kind of media moment while kind of in this very pitched battle with the federal government?

Ben Smith (36:04)

Yeah, I would say I really appreciate it. And I actually thought that he was just that if I was him, I'm not sure I would have taken the time to talk to us about communications because he's just so in it right now. Right. I mean, he's just in the middle of a very intense.

Max Tani (36:17)

Can I just cut you off there? Don't say that. Don't say that. People shouldn't come and do this while they're in the middle of something. They should absolutely Come and talk to our podcast while they're in the middle of managing a big national news story.

Ben Smith (36:31)

Yeah, well, in any case. But it was an amazing portrait, I think, of somebody just who is absolutely right in the middle of it, who's thinking it through on the fly. I mean, it was actually. It was a feature of this shifting moment that I was talking to his team about doing an interview with him for a column about how you kind of communicate against Trump in a way. And at some point in our conversation, it just becomes obvious, like, why would you just have a phone interview? Obviously, it should be a video. Obviously it should be a podcast. Would be a waste of their time, waste of our time, not to do it in that way, which is its own kind of evolution of our business of reporting. I mean, I guess to me, though, the thing that I'm taking away from that struck me most was the governor saying to his citizens, videotape everything. Just the sort of. His sense that these kind of ubiquitous filming and that we want body cams on cops and that being the remedy is like, that is the thing that has, he feels, is shifting the tide. And I think if you see these videos coming out of Chicago, the ones that aren't produced by the Department of Homeland Security, what you see are these kind of. Honestly, kind of like scared ICE agents being screamed at by people as they tackle teenagers and line cooks and people who are not obviously committing any kind of crime. Although, as I said, I think who are. It is in their remit to arrest undocumented immigrants. But. But these videos don't make you think, wow, this federal government's doing a great job, and we really want these guys here. And I think that seems to be what's turning the tide.

Max Tani (37:58)

We wrote about this. I wrote about this for the intro for our newsletter last week as I was kind of searching around for something to write about that didn't have to do with Bari Weiss, which seems like all of our colleagues in the media reporting world are fascinated with, Obsessed with. It does strike me that the defining media story of this, of the first year of Trump's administration, it's not like, oh, you know, Democrats getting into podcasting or whatever, trying to catch up, whatever. It is really the fact that there is a new viral video every single day in different states, you know, where. Where the federal government, where ICE or, you know, the National Guard, in some cases, National Guard are coming up against, you know, people who are very upset. And these videos exist on. On both sides. Obviously, the vast majority are these. These videos that are trying to document what, what people perceive as these abuses by ice. But then of course on the other side you do have the Benny Johnson's and the, you know, kind of conservative media figures who are doing Dr. Phil who are like riding along with DHS and, and, and making their own kind of content which is, which they're also putting out there. And it does strike me that this is really, really shaping how people think about things in a way that we don't fully understand yet. And it is putting a visual to this concept that Democrats are trying to put out that Trump and you know, and the right are engaged in this authoritarian project. They're the face of this.

Ben Smith (39:27)

Yeah, and I guess it's, you know, the thing that is very hard to measure essentially is you know, how many people's, you know, do we have a world in which you have one set of Americans whose feeds are these masked agents roughing people up who don't seem to have done anything wrong. Visib. But then half of Americans feeds are essentially in a sense from the point of view of ICE agents who are trying to do their jobs and are being screamed at and having things thrown at them. Because I think that is, that's what you see if you watch fox. I mean, I think my anecdotal sense and obviously Pritzker's is that there's just something about these, it looks like often kind of under prepared, under trained, masked guys chasing people around CVS stores that is just very unsettling for a lot of Americans. And clearly that's why Pritzker is asking everybod in Chicago to film everything all the time.

Max Tani (40:13)

It's really, really interesting. The other thing that surprised me about what he had to say was this idea that the moments that he said had really resonated with people and you know, he was on the spot. So I think he was kind of just saying whatever came to mind from him was actually the traditional media. I mean some stunts that he, that he did, you know, these press, this press conference on the boats in Chicago, which I think they invited some influencers and stuff too. But he talked about traditional moments which were like these press conference moments that had sit with business leaders or whatever and that that was the kind of stuff that had seemed to resonate in the community. Did you think that that was something, an interesting answer or do you think he was just thinking about like the thing that he did or was that.

Ben Smith (40:55)

Like a little interlude from the Chicago Tourism Promotion board? Maybe a little of both. I mean, I think what's so Interesting with him is he's basically a very conventional politician. He's a guy who, you know, has done very straight up the middle Democratic stuff for his career. Who's who I think, you know, essentially I think, you know, wants to be a normal governor, doing normal governor stuff and has been swept into this insane media world that we live in and is adapting to it pretty effectively. I think that's something that people sometimes miss, you know, as these media change. Media, the media changes, the ways of communication change. And you'll hear people say, wow, the Republicans or Donald Trump, Trump, they've figured out this new media and this new way to communicate and the Democrats and their opponents will never catch up. But actually every 11 year old in America has figured it out too. And even the Democrats at some point do catch up pretty fast. And I think what you're seeing essentially is this very rapid evolution where they reach parity. I will say one other thing that very kind of positively surprised me was just maybe it didn't surprise me, but I was glad he said it. Like local news reporters on the ground in Chicago just doing a great job and being so important to finding some level of ground truth that people can agree on that isn't a video out of context or often that is providing the context for that video. And I was kind of pleased to hear that that is where he's kind of ultimately getting his information.

Max Tani (42:15)

The one last thing that I wanted to end on that I thought was interesting was the way in which Pritzker wanted to put some space between himself and Gavin Newsom and said, hey, you know, what Gavin is doing is interesting, but that's just not who I am. And it feels like a very serious moment. I mean, it wasn't necessarily a swipe, but it was clearly a sign that he felt very differently about the tone of the moment. And that was just not a tactic that he wanted to embrace and that he said he didn't think it was funny. I don't think that Newsom thinks that these things are particularly funny either. But his team, his communications team has tried a whole bunch of stuff to kind of make light of some of these moments, including doing AI stuff of J.D. vance. And I think it's maybe possible that Pritzker was on here, you know, as he is thinking about what his future might be like. I don't know why else he would want to do the most important media podcast in the, in the country, but, but we certainly appreciated having him on. So, Ben, thank you so much.

Ben Smith (43:11)

Yeah, this was great. Thanks for scrambling to to a mic.

Brian Reed (43:19)

Thanks again to Max Tani and Ben Smith of Semaphore and the team at the Mixed Signals podcast for letting us share this with you. I tune into the show every week. You can subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. They're also on YouTube. Show comes out every Friday. Today's episode from Mixed Signals was produced by Manny Fadal, with special thanks to Josh Billenson, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim, Anna Pisino, Garrett Wiley, Jules Zern and Tori Kaur. The theme music is by Billy Libby. Their public editor is Benny Johnson. Thanks to Question Everything's Associate producer Kevin Shepard, Managing Editor Kevin Sullivan, sound designer and mixer Brendan Baker, and our communications and PR rep Megan Ellingbow for putting together this episode. Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seiple, Tejal Azimara, Natalie Hill and Jennifer Farrow. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next Thursday.

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