TikTok Stars on the Politicians Begging Them for Exposure

Summary

Podcast Summary: Question Everything

Episode: TikTok Stars on the Politicians Begging Them for Exposure
Host: Brian Reed
Date: October 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Question Everything dives into the meteoric rise of social media creators—specifically those on TikTok and YouTube—who now wield massive audiences and attract high-profile interviewees, including politicians and celebrities. Host Brian Reed sits down with some of the most prominent digital stars to explore how these creators navigate the blurred lines between entertainment, influence, and journalism. The conversation covers their approaches to content, the pressures and ethics of giving politicians platforms, and the complicated relationships between traditional journalism and influencer culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The New Celebrity Gatekeepers (01:21–05:21)

• Brian Reed sets the stage with observations on creators who have usurped traditional journalists as the must-see interviewers for politicians and celebrities.
• Politicians, like NYC mayoral hopeful Zoran Mamdani, now appear on creator-led shows such as Subway Takes as part of their campaign strategies.
• Legacy media struggles to keep up, with even job listings at The Wall Street Journal seeking to turn reporters into social media stars.

Brian Reed (03:02):
“A lot of people in my industry, reporters, media execs, would kill for an interview to go this viral…”

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2. Meet the Stars (06:25–13:25)

• Caleb Simpson: Known for asking people on the street about their rent and getting tours of their apartments. Built his following after years of trial and error.
  • Notable Quote (07:58):

    “I asked, like, a hundred people. They said, go fuck yourself.” — Caleb Simpson

• Julian Shapiro Barnum: Host of Recess Therapy, interviewing kids in the park about silly and serious topics (originator of the “Corn Kid” meme).
• Ananiah Williams: Fronts Gaydar, a trivia show on LGBTQ+ topics with a comedic/educational bent. She’s a black trans woman and notes the inherent politics of her work.
  • Notable Quote (12:55):

    “…to have a black trans woman at the front of a show like this means a lot to me... I would love to have my own late night show…” — Ananiah Williams

• Jack Coyne: Runs Track Star, a street music quiz show, now a destination for press tours. Broke the first interview with Kamala Harris after she became the Democratic nominee.

Jack Coyne (12:14):
“It’s not that expensive to make YouTube videos… When you’re scrolling on YouTube, you’re watching my show and Jamie Fallon show… the viewer doesn’t really see a difference in terms of… quality.”

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3. Virality Beats Celebrity (14:04–18:52)

• Creators discuss that featuring celebrities isn’t always a recipe for greater reach—sometimes everyday people make for better, more relatable content.
• The line between creators and PR is blurred; creators are now gatekeepers, fielding daily pitches from publicists for paid and unpaid guest slots.
• Paid interviews arise for big name guests, but most creators say it’s infrequent (about once a month).

Jack Coyne (17:47):
“We get 30 requests a day. Like, famous people want to be in the show… [If] you want to do this to promote your movie, it's going to cost X amount of dollars.”

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4. Ethics & Journalistic Tension (22:30–37:37)

• Brian Reed is upfront about the divide: journalists would never accept money for an interview; creators have different standards depending on context.
• Some creators see aspects of their work as journalistic, especially when informing about community-specific issues (e.g., Gaydar).
  • Ananiah Williams (24:45):

    “We definitely report, like, legislation or news that concerns the queer community every single episode… in a way that, to me, feels journalistic.”

• The group discusses how and why they turn down politicians—many have refused requests from the White House and major campaigns, citing potential backlash, the pressure to take sides, or maintaining their entertainment focus.
• The conversation reveals a privileges divide: not all creators can “choose” to be apolitical—especially those from marginalized groups.

Caleb Simpson (26:13):
“The Internet is savage… and I think it’s just better to keep it [politics] out... I’m entertaining. That’s my objective.”

Ananiah Williams (31:01):
“The choice of making your show political that I don’t really get… wherever I go… my identity is in question.… It’s a privilege to have the choice to say no in the first place.”

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5. The Trojan Horse Temptation (29:51–37:37)

• Reed and some creators toy with the idea of using access to politicians as a “Trojan Horse” for tough questions—though all agree it’s easier said than done.
• Most creators describe interviews with politicians as tightly controlled; staffers dictate what’s allowed and what’s cut.
• Creators are wary of inadvertently platforming hate—and the security risks or ethical trade-offs of giving politicians an easy ride.

Jack Coyne (29:56):
“I would do it… Trojan Horse in some journalism and ask some hard hitting questions in a way that was sort of unexpected… but it can be very hard to pull off, though.”

Ananiah Williams (33:11):
“Let’s take, for example, that I do get to ask Donald Trump a Trojan horse question… now, I am actively a target for every single person who has a conservative, violent standpoint on my identity.”

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6. Who Controls the Edit?

– Politicians (or their teams) sometimes must approve edits; often, creators provide a courtesy cut, but sometimes legal agreements restrict freedom.

Julian Shapiro Barnum (37:18):
“I gave [politicians] a courtesy edit and they had no notes. But… I think legally they could stop me from posting it.”

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7. Impact, Relatability, and the Fall of Traditional Media (37:58–38:29)

• The relatability of these creators—using simple gear, appearing in public spaces—remains a key to their popularity, as opposed to the disconnect viewers feel with high-budget studio productions.
• Traditional journalists find themselves struggling to maintain relevance as creators dominate the feeds and become the new media brands.

Caleb Simpson (38:13):
“If they want to go into journalism, say, don’t. Whatever you want to talk about, learn how to make it yourself. You’ll make more money and tell the story you want to tell.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Caleb Simpson revealing his viral rise:
  “I asked, like, a hundred people. They said, go fuck yourself. What are you talking about? Eventually, one person said yes...” (07:58)
• Ananiah Williams on representation:
  “To have a Black trans woman at the front of a show like this means a lot to me… I would love to have my own late night show.” (12:55)
• Jack Coyne on platforming Kamala Harris:
  “I was platforming. Kamala Harris purposely, knowingly… I wanted her to win the election.” (34:28)
• Ananiah Williams on being inherently political:
  “Gaydar is inherently political… my identity is in question. It’s a privilege to have the choice to say no in the first place.” (31:01)
• Brian Reed reflecting on journalism’s place:
  “I really did go into this conversation wondering if there was a way to make what this group is doing more journalistic… But I left not so hopeful about that idea.” (37:37)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:21 – Reed introduces the theme; creators replacing journalists as preferred interviewers.
• 06:25–13:25 – Introductions and origin stories of the panel.
• 14:04–17:12 – Relatability versus professionalism; discussions on celebrity versus everyday guests.
• 17:47–19:06 – How the PR and payment system works for creators.
• 22:30–25:24 – Julian questions the hosts on their skepticism; conversation about journalistic aspirations.
• 26:07–27:49 – Creators on turning down politicians; risks and reasoning.
• 29:51–33:49 – Whether creators should use their influence for journalistic purposes; the risks of confronting powerful figures.
• 34:20–37:11 – Politician control over edits and the limits this sets for creators.
• 37:58–38:29 – Final reflections on creators’ impact and a warning for aspiring journalists.

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Conclusion

Question Everything’s episode provides a candid look at the under-examined power of TikTok and YouTube creators who’ve become the new first stop for celebrities and politicians seeking exposure. It unpacks ethical dilemmas, financial realities, and issues of representation, while also highlighting the vital role these creators play in shaping public discourse—even as they wrestle with questions and vulnerabilities that traditional journalists have faced for decades. The episode is a must-listen for anyone wondering what the future of media, influence, and politics will sound like.

Transcript

[Brian Reed]

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[KCRW Announcer]

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[Brian Reed]

Jealousy, resentment, admiration. How to describe the way I think plenty of journalists feel about a certain type of creator or influencer on social media. Regular folks who've come up with some kind of shtick for an interview, like eating progressively spicier hot wings with an interviewee or going on a date with them in a chicken shop. A bunch of people have made shows like this and then blown up on TikTok or YouTube or wherever.

[Caleb Simpson]

And.

[Brian Reed]

And now lots of these creators have massive audiences, way bigger than many news outlets. And they're scoring big interviews that journalists used to get with celebrities, business people, politicians, presidential candidates. Hi, I'm Kamala Harris.

[Jack Coyne]

You can name the artist, you win five bucks.

[Brian Reed]

Now politicians can go do a music quiz with a friendly Instagram personality and show that they're a regular person like the rest of us. Stevie Wonder.

[Jack Coyne]

Tell me about Stevie Wonder. Well, Stevie Wonder's one of the greatest.

[Brian Reed]

Musicians was ever lived, from songs in the key of Life to teaching us everything we need to know about superstition. And he's actually a friend.

[Jack Coyne]

Oh, yeah, okay.

[Brian Reed]

So, yeah, you didn't know that, did you? These productions, they aren't journalism, but they are filling a space that journalism held for a long time. So many people are Learning about their leaders, their icons through the work of creators like this take. New York City mayoral candidate Zoran Mamdani. He's made these creators and influencers a core part of his campaign strategy. Sure, there was just a hefty New York Times magazine piece about him, but Mamdani's also going on shows like Subway Takes, where guests sit with host Kareem Rama between stops on the train and give him a hot take. So what's your take? I should be the mayor. What are you going to do about the price of matcha lattes? 100%.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Not sure.

[Brian Reed]

I can win this campaign. If you lower the cost of matcha lattes, I can only make the promises I could keep. A lot of people in my industry, reporters, media execswould kill for an interview to go this viral, which is why news bosses are trying to get us journalists to be more like creators. The Wall Street Journal recently posted a job listing for a talent coach to help their journalists, quote, build their personal brands to basically turn Wall Street Journal reporters into social media stars. I'm dealing with this too. I am now the proud owner of a ring light and a couple of those crazy crappy wireless lav microphones that go into your phone. I'm being encouraged, rightfully, I think, by KCRW's social team, to get online to do video, build a presence. They've also been pushing me to get booked on these shows. They really want me to get on Subway Takes. Anyway, today on our show, we have a group of some of the most popular, eclectic TikTok and YouTube creators. Together, they have more than 25 million followers. A single video from one of these creators can get 50 million views. They all started off by just talking to regular people, man on the street. But now they've hosted Kamala Harris, Zoram Mamdani, Elizabeth Warren, Mark Zuckerberg, Chapel Rohn, Rihanna, Zoe Kravitz, Scarlett Johansson, Ed Sheeran, Jimmy Fallon, Elon Musk's estranged daughter. As a TikTok user and consumer of these videos myself, I've wanted to know more about the making of these things and how influencers approach this huge power they now have. Do they worry about ethics? Do they give final sign off on their content over to these celebs and politicians? Who has control? When is money changing hands? And then as a journalist, I'm trying to figure out what our relationship with social media creators should be. We share the same spaces now we're all in your feeds together, jammed up next to each other. And these are the People that are often winning attention. What can we learn from them? I've wondered if there's some way for creators who snag these interviews to wield their massive reach and access to serve journalistic ends. Though maybe that's just naive of me. So you have politicians, some of the most powerful people in the world, begging, pleading to get on your shows. You're turning them down cause we're not.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Asking them hard hitting questions.

[Brian Reed]

I know, I know.

From KCRW and Placement Theory. This is question everything. I'm Brian Reed. Stick around.

Okay, so I've been telling you about this sponsor we're working with. Plaud. That's P as in pancake. P, L, A, U, D. It's this nifty tiny AI assistant and notetaker device. Though it's much more than that. You turn it on, it can record a meeting, interview, or just you talking to it and dumping the contents of your brain into it. Just, just in the last few weeks I've been introducing it to my wife and I shit you not. Just this morning. She and I were just catching up after dropping our kid off at school about things we have to get done this week. We have a really busy week. And she said, hey, can you plod this? It just showed like actually this is becoming part of our life and it's actually really useful. Check out Plaudplaud AI. If you buy one, please use the special code. Question.

[Ananiah Williams]

Is it sparkling wine? Wine. Or is it Mike, do you have a juice?

[Brian Reed]

We invited our social media stars to our normal spot, the wine shop in Brooklyn. Look at us.

One of them was coming straight from an interview he did with Mariah Carey. Another was coming from being a guest on Subway Takes. That day we settled at the bar.

How did you come up with your gimmicks? Like, what's the origin story? I'm joking and I mean it in the best use of that word.

[Caleb Simpson]

Well, I made content online for seven years before anything really worked.

[Brian Reed]

We have with us Caleb Simpson. He's been around for a long time. Huge on TikTok and YouTube. I get the sense he's kind of an OG in this world. People have referred to him as an algorithm hacker. He's so skilled at figuring out what goes viral. The shtick he's known for. He goes out on the street and he asks people, hi, excuse me.

[Caleb Simpson]

How much do you pay for rent in New York?

[Ananiah Williams]

1650.

[Brian Reed]

And then Caleb gets these strangers and take him right up to their apartment and show them around.

[Ananiah Williams]

Come on, let's go.

[Caleb Simpson]

Oh, this has a warm, cozy vibe. Yeah, I like it. Where should we start?

[KCRW Announcer]

You can see everything from right here. You don't even have to walk around. It's really bright, which is why we picked it.

[Caleb Simpson]

And you work from home.

[Brian Reed]

I have my desk open right now. And usually he asks to go a step further.

[Caleb Simpson]

Can I test out your bed?

[Brian Reed]

He jumps in their bed.

[Jack Coyne]

Yeah, go.

[Caleb Simpson]

Oh, it's stiff.

[Brian Reed]

Super fucking stiff. Before he hit on this apartment tour gimmick, Caleb says he spent years on YouTube just throwing shit against the wall trying this or that stunt. So one day he thought, you know, no one else will be dumb enough to ask strangers to take them up to their apartments just off the street. So he gave it a go.

[Caleb Simpson]

I asked, like, a hundred people. They said, go fuck yourself. What are you talking about? Eventually, one person said yes. And when I posted all those clips and the home tour, they all went viral in New York City. And then all their friends saw it, and they're like, no, let that guy in your house. And I was like, ooh, okay, this is different.

[Brian Reed]

Caleb says he now makes $100,000 a month doing these videos. Internet star number two, Julian Shapiro Barnum.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I came from a theater background. I, like, wanted to be a playwright and actor.

[Brian Reed]

He hosts a show called Recess Therapy, where he interviews kids in the park. It's like a sweet reincarnation of kids. Say the darndest things. At the risk of dating myself. Julian's not long out of college, but during COVID he couldn't do theater, so he started making videos with strangers on the street.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I was a really bad interviewer, but what that did was it got me obsessed with talking to strangers. It scratched some itch to be able to walk around with a microphone and a camera. Every week, I'd go out with my camera and my mic by myself, and just interviewing people and interviewing kids really instantly clicked. And then I was like, this is my whole life now.

[Brian Reed]

If you ever saw that super viral video known as Corn Kid, that was Julian.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I really like corn. What do you like about corn? Ever since I was told that corn was real, it tasted good. Did you think corn wasn't real?

[Brian Reed]

But when I tried a bit better, everything changed. I love corn.

Now. Julian often has stars on to interview kids with him. Also at the bar, Anania Williams. She hosts a show called Gaydar. It's the newest of all the shows here, where she quizzes people with LGBTQ trivia, often related to what's happening in the news. And then depending on how they do, she jokingly rates them as gay, straight, or homophobic.

[Ananiah Williams]

You've been doing gaydar for a year now. We just celebrated our one year birthday.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Congratulations.

[Brian Reed]

Thank you. Thank you. Congrats. Unlike the others, Ananiah was actually scouted by a production company to host the show.

[Ananiah Williams]

I've also been a content creator for a long time too. I've been doing it since the pandemic, like posting my comedy singing drag stuff.

[Brian Reed]

Gaydar's funny. Here she is quizzing Zora Mandani. Hi, I'm Ananiah.

[Ananiah Williams]

This is Gaydar. Let the people know your name and your pronouns.

[Brian Reed]

Zahran Kwame Mandani.

[Jack Coyne]

He.

[Brian Reed]

Him.

[Ananiah Williams]

What does WLW mean?

[Brian Reed]

Win, loss, win.

[Ananiah Williams]

Okay, it's close. I like the sentiment. It means women loving women. Yeah. Also agree, which queer group is currently being erased from all federal government websites?

[Brian Reed]

Trans people.

[Ananiah Williams]

Yes, they are.

[Brian Reed]

Last but not least at the bar, Jack Coyne, host of the TikTok show Track Star.

[Jack Coyne]

The reason we started that show is because music is universal. Like, anyone can talk about music because everyone likes something, some sort of song.

[Brian Reed]

Track Star is also a game show. Jack meets people on the street, puts headphones on them, plays them songs, and they keep guessing the song and the artist doubling their money each time until they get it wrong.

[Jack Coyne]

But, like, there was always the risk that someone could, like, really run up.

[Brian Reed]

The score and we'd be fucked because.

[Jack Coyne]

We'D have to pay them.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

What's the most you've ever ended?

[Jack Coyne]

$20,000.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

To who?

[Jack Coyne]

It hasn't come out yet, but it's coming soon.

[Brian Reed]

Jack's the one who came straight to the shop from recording this in Central Park.

[Jack Coyne]

All right, before we start with the music, just introduce yourself.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Hey, it's Mariah Carey.

Luther Vandross. Yes, Luther Vandross.

[Jack Coyne]

Are you a fan?

[Brian Reed]

A huge fan.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

We sang a duet together and I sang at Wembley with him.

[Brian Reed]

Jack's show, Track Star, has become a major stop for musicians, especially on press tours. And Jack also put out the first interview with Kamala Harris after she became the Democratic presidential nominee last summer. The one I played you earlier. This was at a time when Harris was being criticized for not sitting down for interviews with journalists. Track Star. These other shows, they are part of the press circuit now, right? Along with Rolling Stone, Vanity Fair, snl, the legacy, late night shows. And they are clearly on the rise, while some of the old places, well, are dying. I mean, Colbert's late night show just got totally canceled. And the night we met at the wine shop, Jimmy Kimmel was going through his Whole ordeal getting taken off abc. Jack, the host of the music show, he says his show's leanness is its power.

[Jack Coyne]

This is something that I understood was a competitive advantage when we first started. The show is like, it's not that expensive to make YouTube videos. You don't need to pay a whole staff of that many people to make. Essentially, like, when people watch Jamie Fallon, most people watch it on YouTube. And so then when you're scrolling on YouTube, you're watching my show and. And Jamie Fallon show, and maybe it's the exact same guest on both thumbnails, and it's like, which one am I gonna choose? The viewer doesn't really see a difference in terms of, like, the quality of the programming.

[Ananiah Williams]

I don't think, for me, there's a bigger thing here. I feel like I'm like, my direct community's, like, wildest dream in this regard.

[Brian Reed]

This is the host of the LGBTQ quiz show, Gaydar Ananiah.

[Ananiah Williams]

Like, to have a black trans woman at the front of a show like this means a lot to me, you know, and it's cool that it's me. Like, I would love to have my own late night show and I would love to keep, like, building on this kind of, like, idea and like, like.

[Brian Reed]

An old school late night show.

[Ananiah Williams]

Yeah, I'm inspiring traditional entertainment all the time. Like, I think some of my biggest, like, comedic inspirations too, are like Wendy Williams and Jimmy Kimmel and, ooh, Jimmy Kimmel, he's back tomorrow. Thank God. Even Zwei. Trevor, Noah. Like, I would love to get to.

[Jack Coyne]

A point like that, but I think the market is saying, let's. The cheap shows are better. Like, it's not. We're getting less money from whoever has the money. It's like the audience is saying, I prefer watching the thing that looks like the thing that I can make with my phone at home. You know, I don't want. I don't care as much to the expensive cameras and the studio and the fancy lights. Like, it's much more relatable to see you sit in the park. Because I could sit in the park, put myself in that position, because I also have the same means of production. It just connects with people in a different way.

[Brian Reed]

That's one of the things that you think accounts for the audience's connection with what you guys do. It's like, I can picture myself doing it.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Disagree a little bit.

[Ananiah Williams]

Or is it more? I can picture myself being on it.

[Jack Coyne]

I could picture myself being on it.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I think the ditching the studio has done Wonders.

[Brian Reed]

This is Julian, who hosts the show with Kids in the Park, Recess Therapy.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

It's like, oh, this is all happening in our community and around us. And it's, like, made it much more accessible. Whereas, like, if you watch a Fallon thing, that feels like a million miles away, and I think there's something nice about feeling like it's something you could, like, touch or see or run into.

[Ananiah Williams]

It seems like all of you guys at a certain point started having bigger names in the show, celebrities on the show.

[Brian Reed]

Who you're hearing now is Zach St. Louis, producer for our show. He was behind the bar with me.

[Ananiah Williams]

I'm curious how that transition happened and what it looked like.

[Jack Coyne]

So with track Star, we started getting musicians relatively early. Not like hugely famous musicians, but like professional musicians. We were reached out to, hey, do you want to talk to this person? I think it was more like, yes, this show is about music. It'll be great to talk to professional musician because they'll, like, have interesting insights about the songs. I wasn't thinking about what they were gaining from it, that it was part of some PR stunt that they were trying to pull. And I was so naive. I was like, oh, cool, I'll talk to an artist. And then the big thing was Ed Sheeran's team reached out and Olivia Rodrigo's team reached out at the same time. And the show was not big, really. Why is Ed Sheeran going to be on this small Internet show? Why is Olivia Rodrigo going to be on this? And Olivia Rodrigo was like, I watched this show. I think it's great. That was the moment where I was like, oh, this is different. But it was still months after that that I started to realize that we're being used to some extent, say more about that by Hollywood, by record labels, by the industry, by publicists who slow burn over time.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Or it's just like an exchange of. Or it's like a.

[Brian Reed]

It's a transaction.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Yeah, it's a transaction or a symbiosis.

[Jack Coyne]

It's a transaction. But I don't think that it's necessarily equal. Often our best episodes, our biggest episodes are without non famous people. So it's like, we don't need to do this with famous people.

[Caleb Simpson]

And.

[Jack Coyne]

And the way that you were spoken to by people with. In a position of power at a Hollywood movie studio, it's like, you're not. You're going to turn this down. You're not going to talk to this person just to promote their movie. You're not going to let them. You're not going to comment in the caption about, like, that their movie's coming. It's like, no. Like, why would I do that? This is like, that's not the point of this show. Point of the show is not to promote celebrities. The point of the show is to celebrate music.

[Ananiah Williams]

I also think that the heart of at least my show is, like, having people who you might not know, up and coming musicians and up and coming comedians. Like, I think that's where my show kind of, like, thrives the most. And you made a really good point about how, like, sometimes the biggest names aren't the most viral videos. The reason people come to the show is not because of. It might be because of the guests, but it's also. It's about the content and about, like, the connection that we're trying to make here.

[Brian Reed]

Do you think the big names, like, how do you think they fit in? Like, why have them at all if, like, you're doing fine without them? Or, like, how does it fit in the other.

[Ananiah Williams]

There is an exchange. There's obviously an exchange, right? Like, it's cool to say, I had Chapel Ron on my show. I think the exchange is, like, they get to promote their new album music show, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we get to say we had Chapel Roan on Gay R. You know what I mean?

[Brian Reed]

I feel like there's this PR world that. That I'm kind of aware of, and I'm sure you all are more aware of that is really influencing what we see every day on our feeds on tv. Like, was there a moment where we were like, oh, these are like the movers kind of behind the scenes.

[Jack Coyne]

We get 30 requests a day. Like, famous people want to be in the show.

[Brian Reed]

Jack here from Track Star.

[Jack Coyne]

And there's only so many episodes we can put out at any given time. So a publicist has reached out about, hey, this star is in this movie. Do you want to talk to them?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

We.

[Jack Coyne]

We have this date available. And I'm like, if you want to do this to promote your movie, it's going to cost X amount of dollars. This is like speaking to the publicist. Oh, you charge? Since when do you charge to be on the show? Because this other person who came on there, you didn't charge when I did it with them. What changed? And it's like, nothing changed. It's just every situation is different. The publicist will then say, really? You charge? It's like, well, how much are you charging that movie studio? Because you're emailing me. They're paying you to email Me?

[Caleb Simpson]

Yeah.

[Jack Coyne]

So what's the difference? Like, maybe they should stop paying you and they should just pay me instead. Sometimes a movie studio will come to you and say, we'll give you $15,000 to talk to this person, and you have to say, we need money to pay for the rest of the show. So. Yes. So it's like, it's a constant calculus. It's happening.

[Brian Reed]

How often does that happen? We're getting paid to have somebody on.

[Jack Coyne]

The show maybe once a month. Probably not even that often.

[Ananiah Williams]

That's awesome. Can't wait to get there.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Yes.

[Brian Reed]

Are you guys all doing that?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

No, I've done it a couple times when it's like, Netflix is promoting Rachel Zegler's new animated film, Caught up, and.

[Ananiah Williams]

It'S like, so, yes, I have.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Yes.

[Jack Coyne]

That's not hilarious.

[Caleb Simpson]

That's hilarious.

[Ananiah Williams]

Also, it's transphobic to put me on this goddamn stool. Okay.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

We're all in stool.

[Brian Reed]

Caleb, do you have any, like, very awkward stories from, like, weaseling your way into someone's apartment?

[Caleb Simpson]

I mean, it's all awkward and weird. Just stopping somebody on the street and asking them to go in their home is, like, the weirdest thing you could ever do. Try it sometime sometimes.

[Jack Coyne]

I've seen one or two where, like, the sexual tension is so high.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I was actually gonna ask you that.

[Caleb Simpson]

Yes.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

People always think that.

[Jack Coyne]

Look at me like that. You know? It's true.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

People put it on him.

[Caleb Simpson]

They put it on me. They put it on me. I'm like, if you were in the room.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

He has a je ne sais quoi about him, but I don't think he is. I don't think there's actual sexual attitude.

[Ananiah Williams]

I would sign onto that shit.

[Caleb Simpson]

Yeah, there's not.

[Jack Coyne]

But, come on, you play into it in the edits, too, because you know, it's good for the show.

[Caleb Simpson]

No, I've never done that. What are you talking about? I edit my own videos.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

You know, like spooning with Drew Barrymore in your bed, you know? Well, she wanted that.

[Caleb Simpson]

Yeah.

[Brian Reed]

Yeah.

[Jack Coyne]

That was her idea.

[Caleb Simpson]

That was her idea. Yeah. Totally.

[Brian Reed]

Totally.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

After the break, I have a question for you, too. Yeah.

[Brian Reed]

Oh, God. Yeah, sure. The creators question the journalists.

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[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

There's a battle playing out right now over who should control American universities.

[Brian Reed]

Hands up.

[Caleb Simpson]

Hands up.

[Ananiah Williams]

We're gonna bankrupt these universities.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

In season one, we were guessing what was to come. Now we know we want Nothing less.

[Jack Coyne]

Than $500 million from Harvard, from the.

[Brian Reed]

Boston Globe, and on the media, it's season two of the Harvard plan.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

This time, it really is personal. Listen to on the media, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brian Reed]

Welcome back to the show. We're in the wine shop with four TikTok creators, and this is Julian, who hosts the show with kids recess therapy, who says he has a question for me and my producer Zach. I guess even how we've been approaching this conversation struck Julian some kind of way.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I have a question for you, too.

[Ananiah Williams]

Yeah.

[Brian Reed]

Oh, God. Yeah, sure.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

How is this Internet culture landing with you two? Like, do you feel annoyed with it? Do you feel skeptical of it? Critical? I feel like you have a critical angle a little bit, but I'm interested in, like, what you're critical of.

[Brian Reed]

I feel myself pretty open to, like, Internet culture. I'm interested in you guys both because I watch your stuff, you're in my feeds, but also you reach audiences, and it's, like, at least adjacent to what we do as journalists, you know? Like, I'm not some hard news reporter. Like, I tell stories. I'm interested in people. So, like, there's an instinct in what you're doing that I relate to, and I'm curious in what journalists can steal from you or learn from you and apply to our work. But, like, for instance, like, we would never let someone pay us to be on our show.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Yeah.

[Brian Reed]

Like, that's just like a. No, no. Like, it almost. Like, I'm just, oh, my God. Like, what are you doing when you talk about that? And so I'm trying to navigate, like, there's crossover here. There's stuff to learn from you guys.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I didn't mean to point so hard.

[Brian Reed]

No, it's fine. Do any of you ever see your work as journalistic, as adjacent to journalism? Does the idea of journalism ever come into your work?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

There have been elements of my show that I've wanted to make more journalistic, like talking to kids about what's going on in the world. But then it's always gone back to, like, this doesn't feel right for the kids. Specifically, like, when the Uvalde shooting happened, which felt so tied to the safety of kids, I felt really compelled to kind of talk about that in a very safe way with parents involved. And I went out and we did a couple conversations, and it just didn't feel right. And I felt like recess therapy was not the space for that conversation.

[Brian Reed]

What were you trying? I'm very curious. It's an interesting thing to try.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Sad. And like, you know, there's always these times where I'm, like, with kids and the world is so awful and they're aware of it, and I, like, want to know what they're thinking about it because they're talking about it and they're thinking about it. But then it just never feels right to put that on the Internet.

[Ananiah Williams]

I can. Maybe I'm not a journalist, but there is a journalistic affinity.

[Brian Reed]

Okay, go on. Yeah, this is Ananya.

[Ananiah Williams]

Because we definitely report, like, legislation or news that concerns the queer community every single episode. Like, anything from this Supreme Court decision means this or this. Right Was in question last week because, you know, like, all of these things. And I definitely think that, again, it's a part of the heart of gaydar, where we, like, are trying to educate everyone about queer culture and queer history in a way that, to me, feels journalistic. Well, the other journalistic sort of endeavor that some of you are taking on is a lot of you have had.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Politicians on your shows.

[Brian Reed]

Again, this is Zach, one of our show's producers, I think.

[Ananiah Williams]

I don't know if you have.

[Brian Reed]

Can you all just list every politician that you've had on your show? Just, like, shout him out?

[Caleb Simpson]

Zero.

[Brian Reed]

This is Caleb, the. How much is your rent guy? I guess he's the only one here who's never had on a politician. Everyone else has done it. They've had on Elizabeth Warren, Zoramdani, Kamala Harris, and local New York politicians, but Caleb hasn't. Honestly, I was shocked to hear about the politicians who've been clamoring to get on these people's shows who they've been saying no to. This is me talking to Caleb, Rent guy. Okay. None. You've never been in a politician's house. Do you think, is it cause you're not interested or it's something about your format doesn't jive with politicians.

[Jack Coyne]

You need to go to the White House, bro.

[Caleb Simpson]

I was turned down. I turned down me too.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I turned down the White House.

[Caleb Simpson]

I think if you want, if you want my real answer. It's like the Internet is savage and you do one thing and you're berated for it. And I think it's just better to keep it out. Why would I go and make a political stance on something that deviates from the subject matter? It's like I'm entertaining. That's my objective, to entertain.

[Brian Reed]

So you've had politicians come to you and you've turned them down?

[Caleb Simpson]

So many. Yeah.

[Brian Reed]

So many.

[Ananiah Williams]

So many.

[Brian Reed]

Tell me some of them.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Well, there's a man that talks like this and he likes to do stuff, you know, for the health care system. Bernard.

[Brian Reed]

Bernard.

[Ananiah Williams]

Bernard.

[Brian Reed]

No, not Bernard.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

No.

[Brian Reed]

You're talking about Bernie Sanders.

[Caleb Simpson]

No one knows.

[Brian Reed]

Rfk.

[Caleb Simpson]

Rfk.

[Brian Reed]

Oh, sorry. The health care system. Got it.

[Caleb Simpson]

Jesus. I thought. I didn't think the impression was that bad.

[Ananiah Williams]

It was a departure.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Yeah, it was a departure. Yeah.

[Brian Reed]

Wait, wait, wait. When RFK Jr. Was running for president, he wanted you to come correct. Did you consider it at all or you were just like, talk me through that came in. You were like, what?

[Caleb Simpson]

It came in. And there's people around me who are like, this will be good, this will be fun. And then I look at them wide eyed and I'm like, do you want to make money this year? Do you want to pay for my mom who I support? Do I want to pay rent? Michael, we say yes to this, we might be saying no to that. So what you want to do here? And I'm like, also, I don't know much about this guy and like what his objectives are, any of this stuff. Do I want to take a stance right now? I don't know. That's why I said no to Eric Adams. I said no to the President.

[Brian Reed]

Caleb's talking about President Biden. When did the president come to you?

[Caleb Simpson]

I mean, you saw the president all over the Internet on TikTok and stuff. Remember that whole, that whole season?

[Brian Reed]

You're talking about the fall.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Basically, like last fall, we almost had Kamala at an elementary school. And it was an intense process. We had to have snipers on rooftops, but we didn't end up doing it.

[Brian Reed]

This is Julian here, the kids show host.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Like, I said no to the White House. Like Three or four times.

[Brian Reed]

You're talking about the Biden White House.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Yes. Yeah. No, Trump has never reached out to me. Okay. Biden was desperate to like, be liked by the youth, but I was so horrified by like the foreign policy at the time that I felt like I just could not. I didn't even want to be in the same room or like around that. But then recently Zoron, who I had done something with that was without kids, he asked to come on my show and I'd said no. I said, but I would host an in person event with you. He and Elizabeth Warren were doing a thing about universal childcare and I was like, this feels like so exactly the right type of thing to talk to kids about. So we just talked to them about what they thought makes a good leader and what they would do if they were in charge. And we didn't say anything about policy.

But the caption was like, we have these on and they want universal childcare for all. For more information, go to this website. And that felt like I wholeheartedly support that.

[Brian Reed]

It's so interesting. I feel like I'm hearing something totally different when I hear you guys talk. So you have politicians, some of the most powerful people in the world begging, pleading to get on your shows. You're turning them down. Meanwhile, like legacy news outlets, independent news organizations like us are putting in requests. Like, we tried to get Trump on.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

The show because we're not asking them hard hitting questions.

[Brian Reed]

I know, I know, but could we not team up or could you guys not take it upon yourselves to Trojan Horse in there? Like some journalism?

[Jack Coyne]

I would do that. I think about Donald Trump all the time.

[Brian Reed]

This is Jack who hosts the music show.

[Jack Coyne]

Like, if I would do it, if I was asked what I would do, I think I lean towards no. But I also, huge part of me says I should do this and Trojan Horse in some journalism and ask some hard hitting questions in a way that was sort of unexpected. I think that there's a huge opportunity to do that. It can be very hard to pull off, though.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I think it would get barred pretty hard.

[Brian Reed]

By who?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Because are people signing release forms when.

[Jack Coyne]

They go, well, okay, what if Zoron, what if Zoron came on the show on track star and I played Bruce Springsteen and he was like, man, Bruce Springsteen's the best. I'm like, but he's a billionaire. I thought you hate billionaires.

[Brian Reed]

Yeah, exactly. In Trojan Horse. That's a great one. You should do this. Has he reached out to you?

[Jack Coyne]

Yeah, we might do something.

[Brian Reed]

Can you try this. I want to see what happens. It's great.

[Jack Coyne]

I hope he's not watching and he's prepared his answer.

[Brian Reed]

I.

[Ananiah Williams]

And excuse me, I'm getting a little. I'm feeling a little emotional about this.

[Brian Reed]

This is Ananiah from Gaydar jumping in, really looking at all of us, all of us CIS white men after just listening for a while over on the end of the bar.

[Ananiah Williams]

There's something about.

The choice of making your show political that I don't really get. So I'm having a hard time relating to this conversation because the show inherently gaydar is inherently political and something to be debated about because at the helm of it, we have a black trans woman. Like, wherever I go and however I represent the show, my identity is in question. So, like, when I hear, like, about not having politicians on the show, totally makes sense. But something doesn't jive right with me about the potential of both, I guess, political ideologies coming to your show to be platformed in that way. And by that I mean, like, I would never have Donald Trump on my show. Yeah, he would never want to come on my show. And it's a privilege to have the choice to say no in the first place. Maybe it's a little bit of jealousy that I don't really get the choice to have a political show or not, but I also think it's a matter of just, like, acknowledging the state of the country or the world that we're in. Like, whatever video I post is going to be, is going to be a political thing. Yep, absolutely.

[Jack Coyne]

You're under attack. Your community is under attack by Donald Trump. Is there not some opportunity or some in. Somewhere in desire to be like, I can confront this.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

But he wouldn't.

[Jack Coyne]

And he wouldn't. But is there a. Somewhere, some part in the back of your head was like, what if I said this thing to his face and everyone could see that? Yeah, that's so fucking hard.

[Ananiah Williams]

But also, I also think we need to, between the two of us, we need to acknowledge one of us has been conditioned to try to meet a middle ground. You know, there is no middle ground if trans people exist or not. For me, you know, and I think that if I were to ask Donald Trump that question, it would be redundant, and I would honestly be putting myself in more danger than not. Like.

Let'S take, for example, that I do get to ask Donald Trump a Trojan horse question if I'm able to call him out. And let's say the video gets posted now, I am actively a target for Every single person who has a conservative, violent standpoint on my identity. And there's a debate online about like, why can't we be friends if you're Republican and if I'm a Democrat, if I'm a liberal and you're a conservative. And it's because some of these things that are humanitarian issues don't really fall in between the binary. It's either yes or no on certain things, in my opinion.

[Brian Reed]

There's a debate in journalism as well about even doing a journalistic interview with someone who espouses hate. Is that platforming?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

That's a really good point.

[Brian Reed]

Or is that serving, you know, a purpose? Like, you know. And it's a debate all of us have had and go back and forth on. Generally, I think my opinion has always been like, doing journalism does not equal platforming if you're actually doing journalism. But it can be a gray area, especially as we go venture into short.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Term videos like platforming. No matter does. Yeah, it's.

[Jack Coyne]

Well, Kamala Harris was on the show and it was the first interview that she did when she was the.

[Brian Reed]

That was the very first one was on your show. Okay. Yeah, this is Jack again, the host of the music show.

[Jack Coyne]

I was platforming. Kamala Harris purposely knowingly wanted. I wanted to platform her because I supported her. I. I like wanted her to win the election.

[Brian Reed]

Got it.

[Jack Coyne]

So I was like, this is great. If I can do anything, if this is one of the things that I can do to contribute, I'm all in. Like, let me do that.

[Brian Reed]

I definitely think, wait, but wait, does platforming automatically a benefit for the politician? Like, I would argue that it might have done better to see her being pushed and actually have an engage with something. Like it might have, well, made her.

[Jack Coyne]

I tried.

[Brian Reed]

Like, that makes the politician better.

[Ananiah Williams]

I tried.

[Jack Coyne]

And one of my concerns was after I did the interview is I was like, that was weak. It was like she was so protected and guarded and sheltered. You're talking about music, you're not even talking about anything.

[Brian Reed]

That's not in the cut though. I don't remember.

[Jack Coyne]

It was just short and tight and like very fast. And it was like in the moment, like, don't ask her this, do this, do this. And I was like, relax. What did you know how to do this?

[Brian Reed]

What did you wish you could have asked her? What'd you try to ask her? That got kind of bounced out.

[Jack Coyne]

I just think like the whole interview was like maybe three minutes long. You basically saw the whole thing and it was like, okay, move on, move on.

[Brian Reed]

What would you have wanted to.

[Jack Coyne]

If you had to get this like little thing? I think I would have wanted to have a much more earnest conversation. Like, what do you actually listen to? Like open up for a second, talk about your life and talk about your experience with music and instead of like, okay, move on. Next. Next.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Next.

[Jack Coyne]

Next.

[Brian Reed]

You gave her all the answers beforehand?

[Jack Coyne]

No, no.

[Brian Reed]

Really?

[Jack Coyne]

No, I did not.

[Brian Reed]

Okay. No, no. I think what you're describing is really telling.

[Ananiah Williams]

Exactly.

[Jack Coyne]

She also had three teams. She had her. Her campaign team, she had Biden's campaign team, she had her staff. There was just like a million people in the room.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Kareem Rama, who does subway takes, had Kamala on and.

Ah, like bacon should be a spice.

[Brian Reed]

Yeah, he killed it, right?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

She killed it.

[Brian Reed]

She killed it.

[Ananiah Williams]

I read an interview where Kareem said that it was mutually decided.

[Brian Reed]

Apparently Kamala Harris recorded a segment on subway takes during the campaign, but it never ran. And then after she lost, the story of it came out that her unaired take was bacon should be a spice.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

She said that bacon should be a spice was too divisive of a thing to say. It was what her team thought.

[Jack Coyne]

No, no, that was the second take. There was another take. There was a more controversial take and she showed up to do it and then they pulled it and they said, actually this one.

[Brian Reed]

I didn't know Harris had actually come up with two subway takes that didn't air. Do you know what it was? The original one, is that public?

[Ananiah Williams]

The narrative that's public is that the pre agreed upon take was that she was gonna say people shouldn't take off their shoes on airplanes, but that her staff thought that that was too classist or something. And then her makeup take was the.

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

Bacon should be a spice, but there was probably one in between. I just don't think they would let us ask anything hard hitting.

[Brian Reed]

You guys said something here that I do have a question about. Like when the politicians come on your show, do they get say over what runs?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I gave them a courtesy at it and they had no notes.

[Brian Reed]

But if it came down to it, legally, would you be able to say like, sorry, I'm not changing that?

[Julian Shapiro Barnum]

I mean, no, I don't think. I mean, I think legally they could stop me from posting it.

[Brian Reed]

Okay.

I really did go into this conversation wondering if there was a way to make what this group is doing more journalistic without killing the vibe to maybe even join forces in some way. But I left not so hopeful about that idea. It's no shade. They have their place. I like what they're doing. We have ours and we'll just keep duking it out for eyeballs and influence.

[Ananiah Williams]

You can't name a news anchor. Like I could not name a news anchor.

[Brian Reed]

Wait, really?

[Ananiah Williams]

I don't know if I could. Anderson Cooper. Anderson Cooper. He's like Don Lemon.

[Brian Reed]

Yeah, but like now a creator, actually.

[Ananiah Williams]

That's true.

[Brian Reed]

That's true.

[Caleb Simpson]

That's why I honestly tell people if they want to go into journalism, say, don't. Whatever you want to talk about, learn how to make it yourself. You'll make more money and tell the story you want to tell.

[Brian Reed]

Thanks again to Caleb Simpson, Julian Shapiro Barnum, Ananiah Williams and Jack Coyne for being game to join our show about journalism, for being open with us. I am on Instagram doing my social media thing at Bryhread. That's B R I H R E E D and I'm on TikTok Rihread one. Check me out there. By the way, our fact checker wanted me to point out to you that while Forbes did declare Bruce Springsteen to be a billionaire in 2024, Bruce has said he is not in fact a billionaire. Don't want to unnecessarily smear the Boss. Today's episode was Produced by Zach St. Louis and Brendan Baker with help from Emily Maltaire. It was edited by Jen Kinney, booking by Mara Davis, sound engineering by Gabe Quiroga. Thanks as always to Bibber and Bell Wineshop. Robin Semion and I are the executive producers of Question Everything. Kevin Sullivan is our managing editor. Our team also includes producer Sophie Cases and associate producer Kevin Shepard. This episod fact checked by Marisa Robertson, texter and sound design and mixed by Brendan Baker. Our music is by Matt McGinley. Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seiple, Tejal Algemera, Natalie Hill and Jennifer Farrow. Today we say goodbye to our associate producer, Emily Moltaire, who's been with us since the beginning of the show. We're sad but also excited for her next chapter. We wish her the best.

We'll see you next time.

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