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Why Ireland Became Europe's Most Antisemitic Country | Rachel Moiselle
01:17:31
Why Ireland Became Europe's Most Antisemitic Country | Rachel Moiselle
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- [00:19]
A
Welcome back to another episode of the Quill Etc. Podcast. You're with me, Zoe Sankey. And today I've got a guest who many of you might be familiar with. Her name is Rachel Moisel and she's become quite well known as perhaps the most vocal advocate for the Jewish community living in Ireland, which you'll come to understand in this podcast is a very small community and a community that has to live in a country which is increasingly hostile not only to Israel, but to just Jews in general. Many of us have witnessed that island really stands out infamously is one of the worst countries when it comes to hateful anti Zionism, the singling out of the only Jewish nation as an example of all of the evils of the world. We've seen bands like nicap, authors like Sally Rooney and other high profile Irish leaders come out against Israel very, very publicly. I came across Rachel on Twitter where we are mutual followers and I've really appreciated how strong her voice has been on this topic. But what I didn't know and what many of you might not know is that Rachel is actually an expert in Irish Sign language. She's a linguist at the Trinity College of Dublin and is doing her PhD on sign language and machine translation. She spent over a decade working with Ireland's deaf and disability communities. So we get into all of it. Why a country with fewer than 3,000 Jews is so fixated on Israel, what the deaf community and the Jewish community have in common as minorities, and the personal costs that Rachel has had to endure from being such a vocal advocate for the Jewish people. And last but not least, we bond over the fact that we're both women of a similar age who are speaking out about a topic that frankly is not very popular and has lost us many friendships and got us kicked out of a few girls groups. So stay tuned for that conversation that comes right towards the end. And quick heads up. Before we get into it, there were a few issues with Rachel's video recording. That's only at the start of the episode. You'll notice that the issue stops as the podcast goes on. And rest assured, the audio quality is perfect, as is the quality of the content. And on that topic, if you do think the content of my podcast is top notch, subscribe to our YouTube channel, please. It's totally free. Or if you want to go a step further, you can subscribe to be a member of our YouTube channel or of Quillette.com, where you get access to thousands of really high quality essays that we've published Over a decade. Another thing you can do for free, and it takes about 1 second, is share my video or share my podcast with someone who you think would enjoy it. And I've recently come to discover that most people who watch my videos are not actually subscribed. So please make the effort to just contract the muscles in your finger and boom, press that subscribe button. It helps me so much. And without much further ado, let's get into this conversation with Rachel Moisel. Thank you so much for joining me on the Quillet Cetera podcast. You've developed such a following for your advocacy, in particular for the Jewish community of Ireland. For our listeners or viewers, readers who aren't familiar with your work, could you tell my audience a little bit about who you are?
- [03:34]
B
Yes. First of all, thank you very much for your exceedingly kind praise. And likewise, I very much love your content and I'm a big fan of Colette, so it's truly a pleasure to be on. So my name is Rachel Moisel. I am a PhD student at Trinity College in Dublin in Ireland. So I'm joining you today at 7am in Dublin. And essentially, I have always been aware of my Jewish heritage. I was raised Catholic, but I have paternal Jewish heritage. I always grew up being very proud of it. And in recent years, before October 7th, I did note that there was a resurgence of antisemitism, and I began to educate myself on that score. Now, my academic work is unrelated to antisemitism, so I was very much doing this, you know, on my own time because I was noticing it in the circles that I was frequenting, both professionally and socially. And so I was expecting an explosion of anti Semitism coming. I could feel it. I remember Jake Wallace Simmons, before October 7, wrote in the Spectator that, you know, Jews are a seismic people, that they feel the vibrations of something coming. And I guess I felt that a little bit that something was coming. I felt I'm not Jewish, but I'm of paternal Jewish heritage. And I did feel something coming. I didn't expect anything as horrific as October 7th, and I certainly didn't expect it to be as bad. But on October 7, I knew I had to speak out against what I was seeing. And I was prepared from my research over the previous few years as to how to combat that.
- [05:23]
A
I wanted Johan to talk more about Jewish issues. But just the fact that you, you're an expert in, in Irish sign language, is that correct? Could you, could you say a bit more about that and why you got into that?
- [05:35]
B
Very few people are actually Aware that each country has its own indigenous signed language. A lot of people believe that it's universal, which is not the case. So I'm impressed that you know that. Yes, I suppose when I was a teen, I had a little bit of a Mother Theresa complex, if you like. I wanted to help people. And I also loved languages. So it seemed like a perfect combination of the two, this deaf studies degree in Trinity College. And what I loved about the deaf community is they turned that attitude on its head. They very much were saying, we don't need your help. We need your allyship and support as a cultural and linguistic minority. So I loved that. It changed my view on the world. You know, it kind of knocked that paternalistic attitude out of me. And I kind of became aware that it wasn't, you know, deaf people or the disabled community that has to adjust to society, but society should adjust to accommodate as many people as possible, regardless of differences. So that is the kind of viewpoint with which I view the world now. I. I spent two years working for a disability organization. And of course, hearing that world, you can maybe understand that I was coming very much from a left wing perspective. That is a left wing ideology. So in addition to academia being very left wing, also in my professional life, outside of academia, very left wing. And the circles with which I was frequenting, very left wing. So when I started to notice antisemitism coming in, it was very much from the left. I was noticing that not only was there kind of a gap in terms of their knowledge on anti Semitism, but a lot of the time they were perpetuating anti Semitism, they were engaging in anti Semitic tropes without even being aware of it. And to give you an example of that, I remember I realized it was quite bad at the last election, 2019. I hope I have that correct. In the UK and it was Corbyn, et cetera. I remember that there was a lot of rhetoric around that time that my colleagues didn't recognize as anti Semitic at all. For example, I'll never forget this, when the Tories, when the Conservative Party won at that election, an Irish Times journalist by the name of Kitty Holland wrote on her Twitter, it's a great win for Zionism. Monsters are roaring their delight now. That's verbatim. And I remember being in my office full of very left wing, very social justice oriented people. And I was so shocked that I saw that. And I commented as much to my colleague and neither she nor any of my other colleagues saw anything wrong with that. So at that point, I Realized, okay, that's very serious. You know, I shouldn't have to explain that kind of. You shouldn't be able to switch the word Jew for Zionist or Judaism for Zionism and perpetuate anti Semitic tropes with abandon. But apparently that was the case.
- [08:45]
A
Yeah. So where you, like, did you grow up in Dublin?
- [08:50]
B
I did indeed, yeah.
- [08:52]
A
What's the. How big is the Jewish community there? And has the average Dubliner met a Jewish person before? What's the level of education when it comes to Jewish people?
- [09:05]
B
Well, that's a very good question. So the population is under 3000 as per the last census. So we're talking about a very, very small community. And no, the average Irish person has not met a Jew, given how small that community is. So a lot of the anti Semitism that people see, especially online, from Irish people, I'm sure you, you've seen it. Unfortunately, we have a bit of a reputation for it. Anyone who has encountered Irish Twitter says how bad it is. A lot of it is ignorance. It doesn't excuse it, but a lot of it is driven by ignorance. A lot of people don't even know who or what the Jewish people are. There's an ignorance, for example, of the ethnic component of Jewish identity, which is why I suppose my identity confused people for some time. You know, that I was raised Catholic by religion, but of ethnic Jewish heritage. Paternally.
- [09:58]
A
Yeah, look, it's. It's the same in Australia and maybe it's just across the world. I'm not sure if there is a community like maybe the United States, maybe the average American knows a bit more about Jews just because the community there is bigger and has had more maybe influence, like culturally in terms of pop culture. Like, even for myself, I didn't know any Jews growing up, but my understanding of Jewishness was all through American pop culture, through Seinfeld, Larry David, Adam Sandler. And it was quite common to see, you know, bar mitzvahs portrayed in Hollywood shows or, you know, but that was the. The extent to my. Of my knowledge.
- [10:46]
B
And I think what's interesting about Ireland is that even though Jews constitute such a tiny minority of the population, they occupy a huge amount of the public consciousness. Now, I will say, day to day, there isn't this obsession amongst the Irish population, but I'm talking in the media, amongst the political class. Jews and Israel occupy an astounding amount of airtime. It dominates our media class. It is obsessive 100%. It's especially stark when you consider how few Jews we actually have here.
- [11:23]
A
Yeah. And I suppose, you know, Ireland surely has bigger issues, or is it really that everything is so great in Ireland that Israel is the only thing you can focus on? Surely Ireland has its. Its own issues. Right.
- [11:39]
B
We certainly have our own problems. We have a housing crisis. And actually polls show that when the Irish population are asked, what are the most important issues for you, overwhelmingly, it's not Israel. And yet it occupies so much of the rhetoric amongst our political and media class. And another thing I will say, in terms of how small the population is, is that one might then assume that Irish people who may never have met a Jew would take a step back and reflect if there were accusations of antisemitism. But no, it's always defensiveness. It's always no or not. And you think, well, how do you know if you've never even met a Jew, if you've never even asked an Irish Jew, how are you feeling? How is the climate here for. And that leads quite nicely onto what I would say the most serious problem is in Ireland in terms of anti Semitism. It's the denial percent. We don't have as serious a problem in terms of physical violence that we see in the uk, for example. That's very serious. We don't have that similar level of threat here. Although I will say that there have been instances of physical violence, one of which actually went viral. There was a video of you might have seen on Dublin bus of a man verbally abusing a Jewish man, calling him a genocidal Jew. Prior to that video, he had in fact slapped the Jewish man. Are you not better than this? Are we not better than this?
- [13:16]
C
No, we, we.
- [13:17]
B
We are better than.
- [13:18]
A
Than this.
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B
No, you're not.
- [13:19]
C
We are. No, you're not. No, we're not.
- [13:21]
B
Yes, we are.
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C
I agree with him with this. They're the genocidal Jews. I agree with him with this. Jews are murdering. They are murdering. They are the genocide Jews. They are the genocide Jews.
- [13:34]
B
Hateful right now? Or are you being hateful right now?
- [13:36]
C
Well, it doesn't matter who's. Who is committing. Who's committing genocide?
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B
Is he?
- [13:42]
C
Is he. I just ask it be to. He is standing up for genocide. Is he?
- [13:48]
A
Did you ask.
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B
Did you ask him? Yeah, well, he's definitely just living on a.
- [13:52]
C
Look at the white woman standing up for genocide. Look at this woman standing up for genocide. Look at the woman standing up for genocide. Well, who, who. Who commit su. Who is committing genocide? Who is committing genocide? I'm like him.
- [14:08]
B
Who are you being kp? Yes, you are.
- [14:10]
C
You're the only person who is committing genocide. I kind of picked it up, but I didn't. Are the Palestinians committing genocide? Are Palestinians committing genocide? Are the Palestinians committing genocide? I get used to it. They're all like this, like, white woman, white knighting for the Jew, white knighting for the Jew. The Jewish. It is taking, is taking.
- [14:39]
B
Look, stop it.
- [14:40]
C
Look it. Stop the white. The white woman.
- [14:45]
B
So there have been instances of physical violence, but not nearly to the level that we see in the UK with the terror attacks, for example. But our biggest problem is the denial. If you don't accept that a problem exists, it cannot be combated. And that's the situation we're in in Ireland. I always think, well, now that, you know, we, the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland, worked very hard to create the first report on anti Semitic incidents in Ireland. And when that was released and you had proper data for the first time, you think, now people will wake up and realize we have this problem. But no, it's still denial. And every time things escalate, you think there will be an aha moment. And every time the heels are dug in further and the denial is worse. So at the moment comes in waves. I like to think I'm an optimist and a hopeful person, but at the moment I'm feeling a little bit pessimistic about the future here.
- [15:46]
A
So it's, it's a huge question and I'm not the first person to, to ask it. But what, what is it with the Irish and hating Israel? Like, is it as simple as this anti colonial thing, hating England just transposed onto Israel? Is that it?
- [16:04]
B
Yes, that's certainly part of it. There's a cocktail of things happening in Ireland. I don't think it's fair to identify one thing. It's, you know, some people will say it's all anti Semitism. That's not the case. There's a variety of things going on. One is, yes, Irish people say that we see ourselves in the Palestinian struggle. And that has been going on for a long, long time now. I disagree with that analogy, of course, but certainly that is the answer that most Irish people will give. If you ask them, you know, why are you so, you know, they will say pro Palestine, but it's really anti Israel. You know, they equate Israel with the British and the Palestinians with the Irish. Again, it's an analogy that I don't agree with. I also will say something that's perhaps under discussed is I do think the move away from Catholicism has meant that Irish people Have a lot of left wing Irish people in particular have wanted to latch on to another belief structure. Other people before me have said that, you know, left wing ideologies of which the anti Israel movement is a part, is kind of the new religion in Ireland. And certainly there is a zeal to the anti Israel movement in Ireland that is almost religious in fervor. And I do think it's interesting that that's come at a time where, you know, attendance in mass has kind of dropped. Obviously we had our issues in the past with the Catholic Church of abuse, you know, like other countries. And there was a kind of anger towards the church in Ireland for that reason. And in my view, I think there has been a transferral of that religiosity onto certain left wing ideologies, including the anti Israel movement. And I'm not the only one to say that, you know, other people would go further and say that, you know, anti Zionism is the new religion in Ireland. I think that's a bit hyperbolic, but there is certainly a zeal to it. And even my father has always said for many, many years that it's a belief structure. And this is why Irish people can often be very, very aggressive when you challenge the anti Israel rhetoric because people don't like their faith challenged. So when you begin to see it from that perspective that it's a faith structure for them, you wonder why they react so aggressively. And it's also because, you know, being pro Palestine has now become, for many court Irish identity. Now I reject categorically that, like, even aside from, you know, my own heritage, my own Jewish heritage and my own political lenient, my own political leanings, I reject that the Irish people should adopt a foreign cause as being core to Irish identity. We are Irish, we are not Palestinian. The Palestinian cause, while, you know, I fully support people might, you know, see similar, similar similarities should never be a position where if you are Irish, you must be pro Palestine. That is core to Irish identity. You are not Irish if you don't have this political belief. I fundamentally reject that. And indeed, from an Irish perspective alone, I don't particularly like that. You know, you walk down the street and you see more Palestine flags than Irish flags. I have nothing against the Palestinian flag, but I'm Irish. You know, the flag that I want to see in my country is the Irish flag.
- [19:37]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:39]
B
You know, does that flag carry, carry
- [19:42]
A
connotations like in, in Australia? Unfortunately, the Australian flag came to represent in many ways like that you were super right wing or a white supremacist. Or like hated aboriginal people. Is it the same in Ireland or is pretty much everyone proud of the Irish flag?
- [20:04]
B
It's the same. So you've identified something there. Yes. And certainly amongst the media there has what I would consider a demonization of the Irish flag that I don't think is fair. It's our national flag. We should always be proud of it. Now, that is not to say that far right people don't use the flag for particular purposes that I would reject. Right. To make to. Perhaps.
- [20:28]
A
You can't help that, can you?
- [20:29]
B
You can't help that. Nonetheless, it is our national flag and I don't think it should ever be demonized in the way that our media class has certainly demonized it and set it as a symbol of the far right. No, the Irish flag has a beautiful connotation. It's green, white and gold. So green represented Irish nationalists. The gold or the orange would represent unionists, and the white is the piece in between them.
- [20:53]
A
Not the hair of the Irish people.
- [20:56]
B
Oh, no. The tricolor has a very beautiful symbolism to it and I will never not be proud of it and not be proud to wave the flag. And I certainly, you know, that's the flag that I want to see around the streets of Dublin.
- [21:11]
A
Yeah. It's sort of surprising to hear that because, look, my, my understanding of Irish history is not that great, but like you, you have your own language. You got independence, I believe, at least where, where you live. Right. I still don't fully understand. There's north and south and yes, Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is independent and it has its own flag.
- [21:36]
B
Yes.
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A
And it's, you know, own governance and everything. So surely people would be proud of, of that flag. Like in Australia, it's more complicated because we are still part of the Commonwealth and our king is still the king of Great Britain and like the United Kingdom and, you know, we, we don't have full independence. We have. We're not a republic. So I can understand, you know, we have the Union Jack on our flag, so I can understand why people get a bit more touchy about it. But surprises me that not everyone left and right can bend around the Irish flag. That surprises me.
- [22:13]
B
I mean, it's unfortunate. Yeah. I mean, I certainly don't agree with anyone who demonizes the national flag of any nation, be that Israel, Palestine or Ireland. And I agree that we fought hard for our independence in the republic. In the north, as you say, it is still under British rule. As a nationalist myself, I would love to see a united Ireland and to See the six counties be part of the republic. But I agree, we fought hard for our independence and we should be proud of our national flag.
- [22:47]
A
So when did Ireland become independent?
- [22:51]
B
The Anglo Irish Treaty was signed in 1921.
- [22:55]
A
Right. And the current state, like you mentioned that you would love to see a reunification, what's the current climate there? People want to reunify. Is that on the books, on the cards?
- [23:07]
B
It's a good question. It depends on who you ask. Of course, you know, the north is a particularly delicate situation. And one thing I will say is that, you know, I have family up there and a lot of people aren't as ideologically motivated these days. They're thinking about what's practically best for them. For example, you know, my family members up there would be concerned that, you know, if they joined a republic, they would lose their access to the nhs. You know, they have free health care. We technically have a national health service here, but we still have to pay for gps, we still have to pay for medication. It's not nearly the same as the nhs. So, you know, that's how my family would be thinking up there. And I know that's representative of a lot of people who just want what's best for them day to day, rather than being extremely ideologically motivated. Of course, Sinn Fein north are still very much pushing for reunification and there is certainly an appetite for it here in the Republic, really what matters most is not really what we in the Republic think. It's what the people of the north believe. And I respect whatever the people of the north, the EU has been very good for Ireland and actually we have the EU presidency here at the moment.
- [24:22]
A
Right, okay. And so politically, I assume that in the Republic of Ireland there's more of an emphasis on like learning the indigenous language and indigenous culture and stuff like that. Is there? Am I right in assuming that or do they also learn that in the North?
- [24:41]
B
So you're right and you're wrong. So in the north, no, they don't have to learn Irish. In the Republic, we do have to learn Irish. It's a compulsory subject from the time you enter primary school at age 5, approximately right up until when you leave secondary school at age 18. Now, you would think with so much education that people would have a good standard of Irish, but unfortunately that is not the case. Very few people in this country speak Irish fluently. There are particular Irish speaking areas known as gweltat areas, and they are subsidized by the state, so it is spoken in those particular areas, but it's very rare in Dublin to find someone who can speak fluently. I used to be fluent, vime leafa. But now it's kind of faded away from me because there's not a lot of opportunity to speak it day to day. Now events are held certainly, but it's, it's difficult. It's. I mean, when I say it's difficult, you can't go into a cafe and order something in Irish in the way that I would love to be able to. And actually in this respect, you know, Ireland can learn a lot by how Hebrew was revived as a language. You know, Hebrew is the only large scale example of linguistic revival. Astonishingly successful. You know, as someone who's doing a PhD in linguistics, it is a linguistic miracle, something that we could really take example from. But unfortunately I don't see that happening now because kind of any suggestion that Israel may have done something right is not looked upon well by the powers that be in this country and institutionally in this country, and certainly not by hardcore Irish speaking people. You know, the anti Israel rhetoric is. And sentiment is much more pronounced amongst nationalists in Ireland. Very much so. And that's certainly the case in the north. The north is a particular beast where you have unionists who will fly the Israeli flag and nationalists flying the Palestinian flag.
- [26:52]
A
Wow.
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B
It's even more pronounced up there. Yeah. My experience is that it's worse amongst nationalists and of course we see that with the band Kneecap and the rhetoric that they've been spouting.
- [27:03]
A
Yes, it's fascinating because nationalist for you is left wing or is it not that simple?
- [27:14]
B
It's not that simple. I would say that the nationalism espoused by the left is quite different to the nationalism espoused by the right. You know, the nationalism of the left is more like Republicanism, more associated with Sinn Fein and the Provisional ira. There would be, I suppose, more acceptance of provisional IRA terrorism amongst the left to the point that in some cases it's lauded, which of course I reject. Absolutely. The nationalism of the right is quite different. It wouldn't, wouldn't be aligned with the Palestinian cause so much and there would be more of.
- [27:53]
A
So there's nationalism on both sides.
- [27:56]
B
Yes, I would say. Yeah, yeah. But the, again, the national, the nationalism of the left is very different to the conception that you might think, you know, it would be. A typical left wing Republican Irish person would, would be very proud of the Irish language. But Sinn Fein, you know, they have very kind of a. You would be pro immigration. So it's a different form of nationalism. Than you might associate with word.
- [28:28]
A
There's a lot of similarity, I believe, between what you're describing and the Basque. I lived in Bilbao for a few years. How to describe it is if you're a left wing Basque person, Basque, you speak busquera, you speak the native language, you hate the Spanish flag, you hate anything associated with Spain and you just want everything to be in Basque. And there's other, you know, even the way like they dress and the way they cut their hair and the type of music they listen to, it all signifies that they are pro usgati, pro usketa. And I learned that a lot of these people had a very close connection to the Irish as well. And it was very common in the Casco Viejo, the old town of Bilbao, that you would see Irish flags together with a Basque flag.
- [29:24]
B
That's so interesting.
- [29:26]
A
Yeah. I'm not sure if the, if the Irish like feel that about the Basques as well, but there was a lot of cross cultural. Even there was like a myth, I'm not sure if it's true, but the Basques in general, very fair people. And there was this belief that back in the day there was a lot of mingling across the seas, Basque fishermen, Irish women or whatever, I don't know. But there's genetic component and that usquera is so different to other languages. They thought maybe it was similar to Gaelic or something.
- [29:57]
B
So never heard that. That is fascinating. I am going to research that and see if there's any similarities between Gaelica. That's very interesting. I have to say. I don't see a lot of that returned here. I don't think a lot of Irish people would be aware of that connection, unfortunately. Because that's a fascinating one.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah, yeah. And like again this nationalist. Because in Australia when we hear nationalists we think of right wing, anti aboriginal, anti immigration, all these sort of markers. I guess the equivalent would be if our aboriginal population or community was bigger because currently they're only 3% of the population, very, very, very small and was like better organized and had a bigger presence and they became, they had a national movement. That would be the equivalent, I suppose of the left wing nationalism in Ireland. Yeah, yeah.
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B
Similar in kind.
- [31:01]
A
So wow, this conversation has taken many different turns because you've got a lot of interesting things going on. I mean, I wanted to know with your studies, your linguistic studies into sign language is. Is there. Because I know that the deaf community, I mean it's not just a language, it is a community and it's an identity for. For so many people. Are there any similarities, would you say, between like the Jewish community and the deaf community as a minority?
- [31:35]
B
Excellent question that I have not been asked before and I'm really impressed with your knowledge on signed languages and the deaf community, by the way, so well done you. Yes, I would think they're similar in the sense that they're both small communities. There are approximately 5,000 Irish Sign Language users in the Republic. So they're both small, both historically marginalized communities. Yeah, so there's similarities from that. And you know, small communities all share that same thing of everyone knowing one another. So the similarities from that respect, I would say that the deaf community would have more support from the left in this country than the Jewish community. Because that's the problem is the Jewish community is not perceived as a minority, let alone a marginalized community. So there's a refusal in the left in this country to accept that. You know, I would contend that anti Semitism is actually institutionalized in this country and there's no acceptance of that. But each cohort has their own kind of issues. Certainly ableism is an issue here. Accessibility is still an issue. People with disabilities in Ireland have one of the lowest employment rates in the eu and to that end that's what I was working on in a disability organization. I was working on an employment initiative whereby disabled graduates of third level would sign up to our program and we an organization would partner with sectors, private and public sector organisations to ring fence positions on their graduate programmes for graduates on our database. So, you know, certainly there are issues that the disability community face and issues that the Jewish community face and they're not necessarily the same. In fact they aren't the same. But the difference is, is that there isn't even an acceptance that the Jewish community here are facing such problems.
- [33:37]
A
Yeah. And I have seen a little bit online about, I mean not, not just within the deaf community but within a lot of different subgroups within I guess, disabled communities, that there have been issues with people, activists calling out people working in the community saying you're not truly a deaf person so you can't work in this space. I've seen a lot of like back and forth sort of arguing about this. I can imagine that if there's such, this, such a social justice bent, being Jewish, being part of this so called privileged class that many people on the left see, see being Jewish as like, has that caused issues for you in the deaf world?
- [34:24]
B
So there's a few issues there. So one I would say, and this is where my kind of, I Suppose inner woke comes, if you like the subject of the deaf community, you know, not accepting people who aren't deaf. In my experience, that is not true. You have to just be respected, respectful of your positionality as a hearing person within. Within the deaf community and working with members of the deaf community. And that's a responsibility that I as a PhD researcher have. I'm a hearing researcher working on signed languages. It's important that I acknowledge my positionality, especially in the context that deaf people do struggle to find positions in the workplace and positions in academia. That's important. It's important to have an understanding of the issues that the deaf community is facing in that respect and understand where that would come from, where that, you know, oh, you're not deaf, you're occupying space would come from. I think it's a legitimate concern, actually, and I think it's on us as hearing people working with the deaf community to respect that. And I've always respected that and I've never encountered any issues on that score. You know, I have a sign name, Rachel, because I always wore red lipstick in my undergraduate. So it means Rachel. That's great, the lipstick.
- [35:48]
A
Could you come up with that yourself or did someone have to name you?
- [35:51]
B
No, it has to be assigned to you. So you can't just come up with a sign name yourself. It has to be given to you by a member of the deaf community. And usually it has something to do with either your character or your looks, something identifiable. So, for example, a lecturer of mine had very long eyelashes and her sign name is Sarah. Like eyelashes. So, yes, I remember there was a girl in my class who would always kind of go like this when she was thinking. So her sign name was this because of the movement she made when she was thinking. So mine was Rachel. So, yeah, I've always been welcomed because I've always been very respectful. And also going into the deaf studies degree course, I think it's incumbent on any hearing person doing that to be involved with the community. So I was always very involved. You know, I volunteered at a deaf client home, volunteered at the Deaf Heritage center, you know, in the deaf village. I volunteered at a deaf drama group, this performance that they were looking for kind of extras in the background. I always was trying to get involved in the community. It's not the type of subject or area that you can just do your academic work and not be involved with and engaged with the community that you're supposedly working on behalf of. So, you know, I haven't been anything but welcomed by the deaf community and certainly it was very important for us in my PhD research which is being done as part of the Sign on project. Sign on is the sign name for it, which is actually a machine translation project. It was an EU funded project that sought to create an automatic translation device between signed and spoken languages across the eu. And it was very important for us as sign linguists to have a co construction approach with the deaf community always having their input in this regard because of course there's some fear about technologies amongst the deaf community justified. So it was very important for us that we always did a co construction approach with the deaf community and we had deaf organizations.
- [37:55]
A
When you say fears, fears about technology, could you go into that a little bit more maybe about the history of those fears?
- [38:04]
B
So a sign language machine translation device, there would be concerns about the accuracy of that device and indeed the sign on that is available on your phone. You will see it's really, it's appropriate for hospitality settings and it's the beginning if you like. Translation between signed and spoken languages is decades behind research into spoken to spoken machine translation. So really this is the first step and it should never ever be used in place of a proper interpreter. So there would be concerns about, you know, the accuracy of the device and the fact that it's might replace proper trained sign language interpreters, which should never be the case. You should never use a sign language machine translation device in place of a proper trained interpreter. Who these are things are not even on the same plane. And I would say to any sign language interpreter, your jobs are secure because the machine translation device is not nearly at the level that would anyway pose a threat to the jobs of any sign language interpreter. So that would be a concern. And of course there's concerns generally with technology amongst the deaf community with cochlear implants and things like that seen by some as a threat to the deaf community and deaf culture.
- [39:24]
A
Yeah. So what's, what's the sort of, what's the word I'm looking for? Is there a sort of mainstream opinion when it comes to cochlear implants?
- [39:34]
B
I would say like any community there's, there's differences of opinion. I would say the opinion by most people that I know would be kind of negative towards cochlear implants. And it's important to note that cochlear implants don't work for everybody. You know, someone who had the cochlear implant but would take it out whenever she wasn't with hearing people. So I would say more negative than positive. But, you know, there's a variety of opinions within any community.
- [40:08]
A
And is Neuralink discussed ever in. In the community? I'm not sure if it's been used.
- [40:13]
B
No.
- [40:14]
A
You know about Neuralink?
- [40:15]
B
I don't, actually.
- [40:18]
A
That's one of Elon Musk's projects. I've seen it used for a man in particular who had. I think it was Ms. And he lost his ability to speak. He could still hear, but it was. Yeah, like, implanted in his. In his head. Just the technology is incredible that it could read what he was trying to say and used his voice, based on videos of him speaking over years to develop, like, an AI voice and was speaking for him, which was pretty. Pretty crazy to watch.
- [40:54]
B
Yeah. And of course, technology advancements, especially, you know, ones such as you've described, are very positive. So I will clarify further that the issues that the deaf community have with cochlear implantation are often that the doctors who suggest it for a baby would do so without consultation with the deaf community. And therefore, that child never gets the chance to even associate with the deaf community and learn Irish Sign Language. You know, so that is the issue, really, that it is seen as kind of something that precludes the need to engage with the deaf community and learn sign language, when actually studies prove that children, deaf children brought up bilingually, perform the best. So that is the issue there, that you have kind of some children who never connect to that side of themselves, never get the chance to learn their indigenous signed language, because that medical view doesn't incorporate that cultural component.
- [42:00]
A
Wow, it's. It's fascinating. And I can already see that this podcast is going to be like Rachel on, you know, deaf issues and Rachel on Jewish. Jewish issues. But maybe, maybe to get back to your Jewish advocacy, where do you see the future for Jews in Ireland? Do you yourself plan on staying in Ireland or maybe moving? Would moving to Israel ever be an option for you? Are you interested in that? Have you been to Israel even? Do you feel a connection to it?
- [42:35]
B
Yes, I was actually in Israel twice last year and when the Iran war started. So it started when we were. We were due to leave that morning, and of course, we got the alerts on our phones and it was. You know, anyone who has been to Israel knows that, you know, you get the alerts for the Houthi missiles and, you know, you sleep through them. It's not a big deal. This was something different. So that was an experience. And certainly you've been to Israel. I know the kind of one time. Yeah, it's incredible the resilience of the Israeli people, that this is normal for them. You know, this doesn't faze them whatsoever. And of course that is sad. You know, it is sad that, you know, you're in a stairwell with a very, very young child who, you know, this is like par for the course for them and that's not normal bringing for a child and it shouldn't be that way. And at the same time you are in awe at the resilience of the Israeli people. And of course I feel a connection towards Israel and the Jewish people, of course. And you know, in terms of the future for the Jewish community in Ireland now, as I say, I'm feeling a little bit pessimistic at the moment. It just. When something is institutional and we do have an institutional problem here, it's just very difficult to combat it. And the reality is that the Jewish community, being so small, aren't electorally significant. So, you know, there's no need for the politicians to address antisemitism from that cynical point of view. And most politicians are very cynical indeed. The times that there have been, you know, issues addressed have been due to external pressure. So in terms of the future, I would say first and foremost that the community is a wonderful community. It's really wonderful. It's been revived as of late with Israelis coming to work in tech. But it's very difficult, you know, it's very difficult when children are being bullied in schools. It's very difficult when, you know, universities are often very hostile. It's very difficult when you hear again and again issues of discrimination in the workplace, issues of, you know, hostility within society. I would say that the one thing that, you know, would make me want to leave personally is just the lack of tolerance to different viewpoints. Like it's not accepted to be favorable towards Israel. In country in the UK they have other very serious issues of terror attacks. Of course, at the same time, in the public sphere, it's very possible to be very pro Israel, to be vocally in support of the Jewish people and not be relentlessly abused. That to be pro Israel is a dissenting opinion in this country. To acknowledge that there is an anti Semitism problem here and to stand up in support of the Jewish community is a dissenting opinion that is viciously shut down and that I find very oppressive. And that is a larger issue in Irish society of a lack of tolerance towards differing viewpoints, which is the essence of democracy, the essence of pluralism. And it's not something that we rate very highly in this country, there's a very small village mentality that you get in a lot of small countries that it's. Everything in the media class is the same. Everyone in the political class, it's the same on this issue especially. And there's very little tolerance to the point that, you know, I'm sure you've seen what I've been subjected to. It goes so far beyond what you would expect in a democratic society. The abuse that I've been subjected to and my opinions are very moderate, you know.
- [46:18]
A
Yeah, you're not a far right like Ben Gavir, anything like that. You're pro two state solution. I would have a lot more controversial, I think, you know, tweets out there that are more inflammatory than you do. You're very measured and very pro peace, pro, you know, Palestine. Really pro two state solution.
- [46:42]
B
Yes. I was, you know, always in favor of a ceasefire hostage deal and was very vocal on that score. So, you know, I think that is what has astonished people internationally, that me, with my very moderate pro peace views have, has been subjected to such vitriol. But as I say, it's because I've, you know, pushed back against what is a faith structure in this country and also because historically Ireland has not been kind to dissenting opinion. It's not something that's tolerated very well. And that's something that would certainly prompt me to leave. I mean, so that viewers understand the level that we're talking about. I published a very measured piece at the beginning of the year in the Sunday Independent. I've written a number of articles now. And so actually it was more so focused on the Bondi beach massacre. I was actually in fact far more scathing of Australian society than Irish society in that piece because it was written in the wake of the Bondi beach massacre. And but because in that piece I acknowledged that there is an anti Semitism problem and that the Jewish community should be listened to. There was absolute uproar. I was subjected to weeks long abuse for that piece, which again was very measured and just said, please listen to the Jewish community. Irish Jews are very proudly Irish. Please don't betray your brethren, your compatriots by not listening to their concerns. It was quite a poignant essay, I felt. And I got no pushback from Australians with my criticisms of Australian society.
- [48:18]
A
Yeah.
- [48:18]
B
But I was absolutely in on with abuse threats from Irish people to the point that there was one particular anonymous account that was hounding me daily for weeks and we managed to source who was behind that anonymous account. And it was a very well known politician. Not a local councillor, a very well known politician. It was a Sinn Fein politician.
- [48:44]
A
Wow. Can you name the politician?
- [48:46]
B
No, I won't.
- [48:48]
A
Okay.
- [48:49]
B
You know, because anyone who has an awareness of Sinn Fein knows that you don't want to be on the. On the wrong side of Sinn Fein. I don't know if you're particularly familiar with Sinn Fein.
- [48:58]
A
A little bit, yes. Yeah.
- [48:59]
B
They're historically the political wing of the Provisional ira. So this is.
- [49:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bombing, car bombings. That's what I associate it with, essentially.
- [49:10]
B
You know, of course, since the Good Friday Agreement, there's been a move away from that. But, you know, from my perspective, Sinn Fein has not fully reckoned with that history and you have to reckon with this in order to move on. And they have historically operated outside the bounds of the law. So you don't. They have a history of intimidation of political opponents. And in fact, obviously that is still the case given what a very well known Sinn Fein politician was subjecting me to behind an audience.
- [49:40]
A
But the person doing it was a male. Yes.
- [49:43]
B
The person doing it was a man.
- [49:46]
A
Was it? What was sort of the nature of the attacks that he was subjecting you to?
- [49:51]
B
It was relentless defamation on my character. He was talking about my family history. For example, I wrote a piece in the Irish Times and I had included a picture that has long been in my family of my great grandfather's store, which was daubed with anti Semitic graffiti. So we have a picture of that with swastikas.
- [50:14]
A
Decades ago.
- [50:15]
B
Yes, decades ago. So I included that picture in the Irish Times piece and he, you know, put it through some AI and he was saying that the picture was fake. So he was going after not just me, but my family and our family history. Really, really nasty stuff. Multiple times a day he was posting about me. I mean, aside from anything else, what is he doing that he had that amount of time in the day as a very well known politician to attack me multiple times a day?
- [50:45]
A
Wow. So that was someone from the far left. Do you get a lot of hate from the far right?
- [50:50]
B
Not as much. No, of course not as much. Okay. So obviously there are Nazis on the right and I've been subjected to that.
- [50:58]
A
I've seen a few.
- [50:59]
B
Yes, I know we were talking about a key one, Justin Barrett. So he, he's, you know, Ireland's resident Nazi and he has certainly targeted me. Certainly I have groiper style Irish Nazis who would be very nationalist in strain, by the way. And they often put out a lot of the most vicious abuse at the same time, numerically, they constitute a minority of what I'm subjected to. The majority is from the left. That's the majority of the abuse that I receive. And the difference between the left and the right in this country is that the left has the support of the institutions. Someone like Justin Barrett, who is a Nazi who has targeted me, said horrific things to me. He would never be given the time of day in any reputable outlet in this country or any institution. Whereas the left wing anti Semites are given free reign.
- [51:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, the, yeah, they're accepted as, it's, it's accepted as more genuine criticism. If it comes from the left, it's more, yes, there's more support for it. Yeah, that's, that's firstly, it's terrible to see and I, I have seen, thankfully I haven't personally seen a lot of people attacking you, but I've seen you responding to this horrendous abuse. Has that died down since then? And like, what's, what's your relationship like with using social media? Do you still want to be a public figure posting on Twitter? I sometimes think I don't want to do this anymore. Like it's such a nasty place at times I just don't want to use Twitter.
- [52:44]
B
I feel this multiple times a day. So that's a great question. And so I gained my platform very organically and very unintentionally. So I just wrote on Twitter because I felt compelled to speak out against antisemitism in a way that I had done to my few hundred followers on instagram prior to October 7th. And in a way that I have spoken up for other marginalized communities. I have spent well over a decade of my life working with deaf and disability communities. So this is in my nature to speak out against such things, regardless of my personal connection to the community in question. So it intentionally happened. And so of course this is something that I'm adjusting to. This kind of, you know, the fact that I have a platform now and that, you know, twice people have come up to me, thankfully very positively in Dublin. This is a new thing that I'm adjusting to.
- [53:37]
A
And recognized you.
- [53:39]
B
Yes, I suppose you mean and recognized me. And actually were very positive. One was by a lovely German lady. I was walking down the pier next to my parents house with my dad. We were walking down the pier and my dad starts to walk a bit. So I, okay, I keep up the pace and I see this woman coming up behind. She goes, are you Rachel Moisel? And I said, yes, I am. And she Goes, I'm so, so appreciative for your writing. Keep going. We're fully behind you. I know loads of people who are fully behind you. And my dad said that he had seen her coming up in the corner of his eye and he thought that she was going to come up and say something nasty, but it was quite the opposite. So it was such a pleasure.
- [54:20]
A
That's great.
- [54:21]
B
You know, so that's all been kind of positive in person. But certainly I, you know, I never expected to have this platform. And even a lot of people have reached out to me with certain opportunities, especially media opportunities and writing opportunities, and I've, you know, turned most of them down. I love your work, so I had to say yes to this. But, you know, this is not my natural habitat, you know, so it's something that I've had to adjust.
- [54:48]
A
Are you more of an introvert?
- [54:49]
B
100%. I'm a PhD student. Yeah. I never expected for so many people to follow me or to have any interest in what I have to say. You know, I've been published a few times in academic journals, and, you know, that's to the dedicated, you know, 20 people or so in your fields that might want to read. It's quite astonishing to me that, you know, there could be millions of views on an article that I write now on Twitter or a tweet. Yes. It's something to adjust to. And I think I can't think about it so much or else I'll never write on the app. I just have to, you know, disconnect from how big my audience has grown now and just not think about it so much as well. Because you always want to be authentic and you never want to think about audience capture. And something about me is, you know, as soon as I start to think, will this, you know, annoy people? That's when I know I have to post it, because I always want to write about things that I feel compelled to write about. So, yes, I often think about throwing the towel in, but ultimately, which is something that my Irish detractors still haven't grasped about me, is that I'm genuinely passionate. You know, I genuinely care very, very deeply for the Jewish community, for, you know, the future of the Jewish community and the Jewish people. I have a grace and deep love for the Jewish people, and so that keeps me going. And I will say that I've been able to post a little bit less recently because more people in Ireland have been speaking out now, which is wonderful. So I need it a little bit less, which is Fantastic.
- [56:27]
A
On that topic of, you know, like, do you feel like you're part of the Jewish community? I've heard you mentioned on previous podcasts. I don't know if you want to talk about it or not. Conversion to Judaism. I've also, I, I don't talk about it publicly, but. Yeah, what's. What's your, what's your story there, if you're comfortable talking about it similarly and
- [56:49]
B
leaving Catholicism, I have, I left Catholicism long before in 2016. And indeed, I think that was a reason I was getting more in touch with my Jewish roots and my Jewish heritage. And what's been lovely with connecting to the Jewish community in recent years is that, you know, when I, I was, you know, connecting more with my Jewish heritage, I did that a lot in terms of learning about antisemitism and indeed, even in my dad's education towards us about our heritage, a lot of it centered around anti Semitism. But, you know, the Jewish people are so much more than the hatred that they face. So it's been wonderful to connect more with Jewish culture. It's been such a pleasure and I have been absolutely welcomed with open arms by the community. The Irish Jewish community is wonderful here. And as per my conversation version, I will keep that private for the moment. But, you know, we will. I'm sure we'll talk at a. At a future stage. But something that I was quite. I saw a similarity between us before we wrap up, that I was hoping to talk to you is I know we both have had experience of losing friends. Losing female friends.
- [58:01]
A
Yes.
- [58:01]
B
And you can, you know, talk about that. You've written quite eloquently about your experiences in that respect.
- [58:09]
A
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure. I think we're a similar age as well. I'm 31. How old are you?
- [58:15]
B
Similar age. Similar.
- [58:16]
A
Yeah. Very coy.
- [58:18]
B
My grand. My grandmother instilled in me at a very young age to never tell people your age. So it's something that I was indoctrinated into. But, yeah, we're a similar age.
- [58:28]
A
I'm so like, out. Out in the open, probably about too many things, to be honest. But yeah, it's. In summary, I mean, people who've read my work or listened to previous podcasts, like, I have talked about it a bit, as you've said, but I've always found, like, female friendship groups to be challenging in. In a particularly particular way. I've loved the. I'm such a girl's girl when it comes to, like, like, I love talking about fashion and Beauty and film and like, like music and all. All this stuff with girls and, like, going out. And I was a ballet dancer and I was very much into that. But I've also always had pretty strong opinions about things. Not everything, but as you were saying, I'm genuinely passionate about things and I get genuinely, you know, I. I care. I don't say things that I don't believe in just because it would make me more popular in a group. And unfortunately, I can't keep my mouth shut if I really don't agree with something. I just can't go along with it. I have to say something. And, you know, I've always found women's groups and evolutionary psychology does back this up. Like, there is more conformity.
- [59:51]
B
Yes.
- [59:51]
A
In girls groups and it's hard. And particularly this issue of Israel.
- [59:58]
B
Yes.
- [59:59]
A
Like, I'd lost friends over criticizing, like, aspects of mainstream feminism or, like, gender ideology. So much stuff. The voice referendum, which was, you know, indigenous issues in Australia, like so many other hot button topics that people get pissed off about. But it was this topic of Israel that just really was, like, radioactive in my girls group, which is crazy because none of the girls had any connection to Israel or the Jewish community except for me. Like, I met a Jewish man, I fell in love with him, I became part of the Jewish community and I had genuine skin in the game, and none of them did. And we're not friends anymore. To cut a long story short, what about you?
- [60:47]
B
I'm so sorry that happened to you, but I know you've written eloquently that you have a wonderful group of friends now.
- [60:53]
A
It's a blessing, really. Effy.
- [60:54]
B
Yeah, but I'm sorry because I know how painful that is and I don't think it's spoken about a lot. You know, we talk a lot about, you know, romantic breakups, but not a lot has talked about, you know, friendship breakups, which in my experience have been infinitely more devastating, actually, especially when you're talking about childhood friends. And similar to you, this has been the radioactive subject. And you know what really broke my heart, actually, is my best friend, Natasha. Hello, Natasha. If you're watching, she's very supportive of everything. She's Jewish, she lives in Israel. She made Alia a number of years ago. And actually the first time I was in Israel last year was for her wedding, her and her lovely husband Reuben. So she actually came to Visit me in 2020 in Ireland. So she came to stay with me for a week. And of course I wanted to introduce her to the girls, to the Friends here. And Natasha's such a kind girl. She had all of these little bits from the shouk that she wanted to give my friends to, you know, to make a good impression.
- [61:59]
A
Lovely.
- [61:59]
B
Which was so kind and something that Natasha would do. So we spent the evening with two of my friends whom I won't name, I won't embarrass them. We had dinner together. We came back to my apartment. We had a wonderful evening together. And on October 7, neither of those two girls, whom I would consider best friends, both of whom I knew since I was approximately 13, 13, 14, 13, 14, neither of them messaged me to ask if Natasha was okay. You know, she happened to be in London at the time for the holiday to visit her husband's family. But, you know, she's young, she's the type who would have been at a music festival. The fact that they didn't message me to ask if she was okay, or the other people I knew, they knew that I have many friends and family, friends in Israel. They didn't message me to ask if any of them were okay. But the fact that they met Natasha and didn't think to message me to ask if she was alive, I just. I found that, you know, quite unforgivable at this point. I now find it unforgivable. But one of those friends, again, whom I've been, you know, steadfast friends with since I was a teenager, we really grew up together. I messaged her on the Thursday. I remember distinctly how many days I said I would wait. I messaged her on the Thursday and I said, I can't believe after everything we've been through that you wouldn't just send me a message. And we would have spoken every day prior to that. She never responded, and we haven't spoken since. And that's one. Yeah. Now, that was a situation whereby, for the first time in our friendship, we had encountered some issues in the lead up to her wedding. You know, a lot of brides can behave a certain way, but I won't say anything more than that because, you know, she's not here to defend herself. But at the same time, I remember when she was on her honeymoon and her cat went missing. I immediately messaged, what can I do to help find the cat? What can I do? Because regardless of, you know, disagreements we may have had, I would always want the best for her. And if anything were to happen, I would always, always have been there. But, yeah, she never messaged. We haven't spoken since. And that was quite devastating. And another friend similarly she didn't touch base after October 7th, and I believe it was Wednesday when she finally sent me a voice message, as we would always send voice message on WhatsApp. And she said it very nonchalantly, like, oh, terrible, what's happening? She knew very well how deep of a connection I had to Israel, in particular Natasha, whom she had met. And that took another few months, but eventually we just never spoke again. I saw her interacting with posts that I found quite egregious.
- [64:46]
A
Yeah, I was wondering about that.
- [64:48]
B
That was one thing. But also just I felt, as you said, you were the only one in your friendship group with a connection to Israel. And. And, you know, even if I acted in a manner that was upset, because certainly some of my messages to the second friend whom I cut contact with a couple of months later were upset and distressed, I don't deny that. Because, you know, as far as I was concerned, the whole world had changed, and it had for the Jewish community. The whole world had changed. You know, my eyes had been opened to a really ugly part of Irish society. Irish people were very well represented in the celebrations on Twitter of October 7th, and that included a Trinity professor, you know, where I am, a student. That included a counsellor, an Irish county councillor in the party. People before profit actually called 10-7-beautiful. So this is what I was seeing in Irish society, and I was forever changed from seeing that very, very dark underbelly of Irish society. But there was very little grace given. If you either of these two friends, I am 100% certain that they would say that I was a very good friend. I know they would. They would say I was a very good friend all growing up. I've always been a girl's girl, you know, in fact, I was kind of very late to the dating game, so I was always very much invested in my female friendships and put a lot of effort into my female friendships. And they know that, and they could back that up. Even now. I'm sure they would say that you were to was always a very good friend and very little grace was given to me at that time, I would say in a way that I would have always given in return, but, you know, that's life. And, you know, I hope they're doing well. And I think, like you, I don't regret that that has happened. You know, my life is so much bigger now than I ever expected. At the same time, it's interesting that my personal life shrunk in the same way. That kind of my public life started to get so big. You know, I Could post something and there'd be thousands of people responding to me and messaging me. But you know, I didn't have my girls to go for dinner with during the week. So that juxtaposition was quite something, you know, and I was quite lonely. But, you know, I'm glad it happened. I've met so many wonderful people and you know, I found my tribe now and, but it's something that I don't think is talked about enough, especially when there's not, as we say, closure. You know, a lot of the time it's just with one of those girls, we just never messaged again. Similarly with the second girl, after a few months, we just never messaged again. There was no meet up to have a conversation or anything like that. I think we should talk about it more as women, you know, the grieving process of that.
- [67:38]
A
Definitely, definitely. And, and you know, I have to walk the line between just being jaded and black pilled and staying true to my, you know, bubbly, happy self who sees the positive in, in most people and most things. And I would still 100%, you know, love to speak to these girls and to, if they, you know, apologized or even if they didn't apologize. Like the thing with them is that there was absolutely no explanation, no talking. I was just cut. I was completely cut.
- [68:21]
B
Sorry.
- [68:22]
A
And it, it, yeah, thank you. It, you know, it was especially frustrating because we met at law school and I'm like, aren't we studying? Like they're, they're actually working as lawyers. I'm not, but like they should, should have the ability to say, hey, Zoe, I don't want to be friends with you anymore. And this is why. Litigate your case. Like, tell me I, I can, I can handle it, but at least give, give me something. But they gave me nothing. I just got, I just got cut entirely. And for that I really don't respect them.
- [69:01]
B
Yeah.
- [69:01]
A
Because. So that's, that's really weak behavior. I, I, I think that's, I agree.
- [69:09]
B
It's weak behavior not being able to communicate. Even if you didn't go to law school, you should be able to communicate.
- [69:17]
A
Exactly.
- [69:17]
B
You know, I, I don't think if you've had a significant relationship with someone, be that platonic or romantic, that ghosting is acceptable. You know, it's, No, I really don't. And certainly that was the case with one of my friends. Now it's interesting you say you would be happy to meet up with them. I don't know if that's the case with me. I Wish them nothing but the best, but it's. You can't go back. You know, that's kind of how I feel about the situation. I could never go back. You know, the second girl who I did quick contact with because of what I saw as very bad behavior in. In the months between October 7th and when I said I couldn't be friends, but she, you know, got married. Things happen, life moves on. And I wasn't at that wedding. So I just think, honest, for me, it's like, I wish them all the best. I truly have no hard feelings. And I'm just in a different stage of life. You know, it's just a chapter.
- [70:20]
A
I have a lot of hard feelings. I have a lot of hard feelings, a lot of resentment. But at the same time, I'm such a forgiving person, and I. I would, you know. Yeah, it's never going to happen. It's never, ever, ever going to happen. And I don't sit, you know, lay awake at night hoping for it to happen.
- [70:40]
B
Yes.
- [70:40]
A
If you want or expect anyone to apologize to you, you're going to live a life of disappointment. So unfortunately, like, since October 7th, that has been my main learning, really, that, like, yeah, life and people just to have, like, far lower expectations for people.
- [71:04]
B
Yes. I think. And expectation is the root of all heartbreak. Yes. I mean, I agree with that. And I also relate to the hope. Like, I remember for a long time I had the first girl who just never responded to me after I texted her to say I was heartbroken. And that wasn't an angry message, by the way. It was very heartfelt. I remember I, like, had archived our chat on WhatsApp, and I would go, I would check to see if a little one was coming up to see if she. For so long I was waiting to see. And even subsequent, you know, I remember the first time I had an. I was published in an Irish paper in the Irish Times. I thought maybe she would touch base at that time because it was quite a poignant article. You know, as anti Semitism got worse, I thought maybe they would touch base to say, oh, Rachel, sorry, you were right. Because I do think they were dismissive that anti Semitism existed at all. Maybe they still are. Who knows? But I did maintain a hope. But now that hope is gone and I've realized, you know, I've come to terms with the fact that, you know, I may never speak to these women again. But, you know, yeah, that's. That's life.
- [72:12]
A
I'm the same like my. My husband's grandmother who was a Holocaust survivor whom they knew I was super close to. Like, she passed away. I thought, oh, maybe maybe they'll reach out or say, you know, maybe that will be the bridge. No. Oh, maybe Bondi, you know, maybe our community getting physically, you know, attacked and terrorized. Maybe, maybe then. Maybe the car behind, you know, my street getting firebombed because they're Jewish. Maybe then. But no, like, I'm so sorry. So I just don't have any expectations anymore. Yeah, yeah. And I unfortunately too, like, when I meet new people, I usually just assume that, like, they are going to have very. I don't know if I'm wrong, tell me. But like, I, I just assume, like, it's very likely they have really bad opinions about Jewish people, let alone, like, Israel. I, I just assume they hate Israel. Most people, especially young people I meet and that once they find out I'm like an advocate for the Jewish people or I have a connection to Israel, that I love Israel, like, they're going to not want to be friends with me anymore. So it sounds very doom and gloom, but actually it's made me into a far stronger person, I think, and it's really clarified my opinions and where I stand on, on so many things and being okay with people not liking me.
- [73:46]
B
Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely. I have had to learn that as well. Being okay with people not liking you. You know, as a woman, I think we are more prone to people pleasing. And I've had to overcome my people pleasing nature in order to stand up for what is right. And, you know, that has, you know, I have been subjected to awful comments about my character, about everything. And you just have to accept that, you know, and I have become a stronger person because of it and far more resilient. I mean, it rolls off my back now, the amuse in terms of the expectation. Certainly in Ireland, when I'm out, I'm. I'm always looking over my shoulder in terms of what I'm saying because of the climate here. And that's what's, you know, so lovely about Israel. I remember I was actually in Tel Aviv on the beach with David Hirsch, who the academic. We had a wonderful conversation. I know he, he's hosting the antisemitism conference in Haifa at the moment. Wonderful man. His book was transformative for me in understanding left wing anti Semitism long before October 7th, and he's done fantastic research on it. But we talked about how much of a relief it was to just not have to look over our shoulders in terms of what we are speaking about, you know, we can talk about the Jewish people, we can talk about Israel and not have to be concerned in that respect. In terms of what I expect from people, people I surround myself now with, you know, the Jewish community, a lot of people who would be aligned in thinking. Everyone finds their tribe, and I. I'm grateful to have found mine, and it's very much with the Jewish community. And I know it's the same for you.
- [75:31]
A
Love that. Yes. Yeah. Silver lining to. To everything. Right. And I think the. The Jewish people in Jewish history are just a huge example of that, of, like, terrible things happening to, you know, an injustice happening to a group of people, but that injustice or suffering being turned into something positive. Yes, and.
- [75:55]
B
Exactly. And, you know, I love this sentence. Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will, and that's what I try to live by. So we have to be optimistic through the.
- [76:06]
A
Well, yes. Yes, we do. We do. Okay. Rachel, thank you so much for joining me.
- [76:14]
B
Thanks so much for having me.
- [76:16]
A
If people want to check out your work, I'll link them to your Twitter page. Is there something else they can. Do you have a website or anything?
- [76:25]
B
Nothing like that. As I say, everything with me was very unexpected. No website, just I post my thoughts on Twitter, and if you research my name, I've written a couple of articles. So love that. Thank you so much for having me, Sari. I really enjoyed it.
- [76:39]
A
Thank you, Rachel. See you. Hopefully one day you can come to Australia or I can make it over to Ireland. I've never been.
- [76:44]
B
Please come here. We would love to have you.
- [76:47]
A
We should. We should hang out.
- [76:48]
B
Yes.
- [76:49]
A
Great. I'd love to go.
- [76:50]
B
Bye, Sloane.
- [76:51]
A
Okay. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye.