First Nations Chief, Podcast Pundit, Indigenous Gadfly

Summary

Quillette Podcast: "First Nations Chief, Podcast Pundit, Indigenous Gadfly"

Guest: Aaron Peet, Chief of the Chawathil First Nation, British Columbia; Host of an Indigenous issues podcast
Host: Jonathan Kay, Quillette editor
Date: July 7, 2026
Theme: An in-depth discussion on the realities of Indigenous governance, socioeconomic development, intra-Indigenous politics, and the complexities surrounding contemporary debates in Canada’s First Nations communities.

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners into the underexamined but critical everyday realities of Indigenous governance, focusing on the Chawathil (Stó:lō) First Nation in BC. Jonathan Kay interviews Chief Aaron Peet — a rare voice favoring pragmatic socioeconomic improvement over the dominant rhetoric of decolonization and land claims. The episode explores what effective leadership looks like on small, under-resourced reserves and unpacks how both internal and external political forces shape the lives and prospects of Indigenous Canadians.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Geographical and Cultural Context

• Location: Chawathil First Nation is situated near Hope, BC—distinct from larger, coastal, and more economically developed First Nations (04:58-06:10).
• Cultural Differences: Peet explains regional distinctions between coastal and inland Salish peoples (05:19, 05:32):
  • Totem poles are unique to coastal nations ("think of them as perhaps like a lighthouse giving direction..."). Chawathil uses house posts.
• Modern Impact: Economic divides mean wealthier nations invest more in cultural preservation; less affluent communities like Chawathil are still focused on poverty reduction (06:10).

2. Economic Development and Governance Hurdles

• Tourism Potential: Chawathil sits at a transportation crossroads but lacks foundational tourism infrastructure (07:08-08:17).
  • Peet describes missed opportunities and current projects—like proposed hotels and glamping—requiring upfront capital and long-term thinking.
• Administrative Burden: Governance is “a life of paperwork” (08:55-11:17).
  • Applying for federal funding involves complex, laborious reporting.
  • On-reserve housing, left unregulated for years, suffered from safety issues. Peet prioritized catching up on audits and securing funds for gut renovations—nearly half the reserve’s homes have now been overhauled.
• Quote:

  "We were about four, four years behind on our audits... applications, as you described, can be arduous. Take three people two months to fill out..." — Aaron Peet (09:08)

3. Housing, Ownership, and Community Mindset

• Fee Simple Barriers: Lack of private homeownership (“fee simple”) reduces resident investment in property maintenance (12:24-13:53).
• Peet's Experience: Many residents inherited substandard houses, leading to low pride and maintenance. Renovations (with members’ choice of features like paint color) sparked greater care.
• Broader Causes: Generational trauma, lack of role models for home care, and hopelessness interact with economic structures.
• Quote:

  “I’ve seen people start to maintain their homes after these gutten renos because the paint color is theirs... there were other factors I didn’t initially recognize.” — Aaron Peet (13:22)

4. Leadership Dynamics and Community Tensions

• Return of the Educated: Outsiders with technical skills often face suspicion or resentment—a dynamic Peet understands viscerally (15:06-17:15).
• Chief Peet’s Backstory: Raised partly outside the community (his mother, a 60s Scoop survivor, was raised by a non-Indigenous family), Peet brings both Western education (law, criminology) and an “outsider” sensibility.
• Being Different: Dressing formally signals professionalism and sets an example (“I wear a suit. I don’t do that by accident... we need some differentiators at times.” — Peet, 16:07)
• Managing Skepticism: Peet chooses to live off-reserve for balance and transparency, and runs regular “Chief’s Office Hours” and monthly reports (17:27–18:30).

5. Media, Podcasting, and Intellectual Curiosity

• Podcasting as Lifeline: Peet leverages his podcast for idea exchange, sanity, and practical policy debate (19:02–21:02).
  • Openly invites guests with opposing views.
  • Real-world benefit: Attracts investor interest and broadens perspective beyond local crises.
• Quote:

  “The podcast is what I love most... it feeds the part of me that really enjoyed university as a place to debate ideas, to have my perspectives challenged…” — Aaron Peet (19:02)

6. Internal Politics and the “Family Card”

• Banishing Members: Rarely used but permissible under the Indian Act; emotionally charged in small communities (21:22–22:24).
• Family Ties: Politics complicated by kinship networks; every sensitive decision risks conflict of interest.
• Peet's Unusual Position: Lacked broad family backing; elected on ideas rather than family name—a rarity (22:24-23:27).

7. Socioeconomic Approach vs. Rights-and-Title Focus

• A “Protest Candidate”: Ran as fresh face against “old school” kinship-based leadership (23:05).
• Zero Sum Trap: Past “famine mentality” prevented optimism. Peet’s success in securing funding and new projects has nudged the community from zero-sum thinking to hopeful, expansive attitudes (24:54–25:31).

8. Inter-Community Competition and Government Policy

• Scramble for Resources: Competition among First Nations can be fierce, sometimes leading to threats and resentment (26:18–27:30).
• Missed Opportunities: Communities with quick, sophisticated legal/policy teams benefited disproportionately from “reconciliation” funding. The well is now dry for latecomers, and frustration simmers.

9. Self-Government Models: The Nisga’a and Beyond

• Nisga’a Agreement’s Legacy (28:17–29:37):
  • Early comprehensive self-government treaty in BC created a third order of government—integrated taxation, closed future land claims.
  • Peet sees this as a lost but ultimately practical model. Later treaties left significant claims unresolved for future negotiation—seen as a “sweet deal” for negotiators seeking maximal leverage.
• Quote:

  “I think Nisga’a was the last time we had rational, reasonable conversations about what self-government actually looks like.” — Aaron Peet (28:17)

10. Residential Schools, Trauma, and the Unmarked Graves Controversy

• Personal Impact: Peet’s grandmother survived residential school trauma; his mother was affected by fetal alcohol syndrome resulting from that trauma (31:53).
• Nuanced Legacy: Some recognize skills gained (English, administration), but the “horrific” loss of family/parenting knowledge is generational.
• Culture War Fallout: Media/culture war over “unmarked graves” has polarized the public—conflating skepticism about one particular claim with denial of residential school harms writ large (34:00–37:08).
• Key Exchange:

  “It’s not helpful. It’s not true. And you must encounter that. You maintain your composure. That must be tough." — Jonathan Kay (37:02)

11. Protest, Public Perception, and Gatekeeping

• Interactions with the Left: Boundary-pushing critics of residential school narratives (like Frances Widdowson) are shunned by institutions, but Peet finds them open to debate—unlike high-profile “progressive” Indigenous academics who, he says, will not engage with him (46:24–47:11).

12. Internal Legitimation and External Misunderstanding

• Parallel Governance: The Wetsuweten pipeline saga—external activists misunderstood/dismissed democratically-elected First Nations leadership in favor of hereditary “traditional” authorities (44:42–45:33).
• Media Myopia: CBC and mainstream outlets prefer romantic, anti-colonial narratives and rarely platform chiefs focused on economics and pragmatic reform (48:41–49:00).
• Quote:

  “There are two tracks. There are the rights and title people and there are the socioeconomic leaders. And I’m a socioeconomic leader.” — Aaron Peet (48:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bureaucracy:

  "It is an arduous process... who’s comfortable reading over a 30 page application...?" — Aaron Peet (11:05)

• On Trauma Cycles:

  “They didn’t have parents who taught them the value of a clean home because they had trauma or they struggled with alcohol use.” — Aaron Peet (13:30)

• On Internal Dissent:

  “There were certain people who looked at my education and ‘oh, you think you’re better than me’? ...But ultimately their voices didn't carry the day.” — Aaron Peet (15:44)

• On Political Realities:

  "I didn't have any pals." — Aaron Peet, on expectations to hire family or friends upon gaining office (24:01)

• On Socioeconomic Focus:

  “There are the rights and title people and there are the socioeconomic leaders. And I’m a socioeconomic leader... I care about people not being born in abject poverty, not being born in a house with mold mildew.” — Aaron Peet (48:05)

• On Polarization over Unmarked Graves:

  “Social media and the culture war being what it is... forces people to say either residential schools were horrible, [and] every horrible thing that you could attribute to them is true, including unmarked graves, or... now I’m questioning everything.” — Jonathan Kay (34:25)

• On Media Exclusion:

  “I've never been invited on CBC, Global, CTV to comment on really ever.” — Aaron Peet (49:00)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chawathil cultural context & geography: 05:12–06:10
• Challenges with tourism and economic development: 07:08–08:17
• Housing crises and federal bureaucracy: 08:55–11:17
• Role of homeownership in community pride: 12:24–13:53
• Community suspicion toward technocratic/educated returnees: 15:06–17:15
• Leadership style and transparency: 17:27–18:30
• Podcasting, idea debate, and mental health: 19:02–21:02
• Use and controversy of banishment powers: 21:22–22:24
• How kinship politics shapes leadership: 22:24–23:27
• Socioeconomic progress vs. rights-and-title approaches: 24:54–25:31, 48:05
• Inequity in government reconciliation funding: 26:18–27:30
• Nisga’a self-government treaty vs. modern deals: 28:17–29:37
• Residential school legacy and its polarizing politics: 31:53–37:08
• Internal and external misunderstanding of community legitimacy (Wetsuweten): 44:42–45:33
• Media exclusion and public narrative preferences: 48:41–49:00

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Tone and Language

Throughout, the tone is direct, candid, and analytical—eschewing platitudes in favor of granular, experience-based insight. Peet welcomes debate, shows humility about changing his views over time, and repeatedly underscores his focus on pragmatic, measurable community betterment over ideological purity.

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This episode offers a unique, ground-level perspective on Indigenous governance in Canada—anchored in reality, resistant to grandstanding, and unafraid to challenge the party lines dominating both Indigenous and mainstream political discourse.

Transcript

[Jonathan Kay]

Introducing Meta Glasses. You have questions, They've got answers. Hey Meta, what's the capital of Peru?

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

Lima.

[Aaron Peet]

How do you say where's the restroom in Spanish?

[Jonathan Kay]

Donde esta Alvano? Hey Meta, is a hot dog a sandwich? Technically, no. Spiritually, yes. Hey Meta, what should I do with my life? That's one of life's biggest questions. What do you think? Ask anything with the new Meta Glasses. Welcome to the Quillette Podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan Kay. If you like what you hear, please Visit [e-mail] the site where free thought lives. For essays, news and more podcasts, sign up for our newsletter and become a [e-mail] that's Q U I double L E double T E dot com this

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

week I'm going to take you into the fascinating and politically fraught world of Canadian Indigenous governance with a very special guest, Aaron Peet, chief of the chihuahuattle First Nation in British Columbia and host of the popular nuanced podcast Here at Gwelette. We've often covered Canadian Indigenous issues, but generally from one of two distinct perspectives. First, there's our popular nations of Canada historical series, of which We've now published 29 separate installments. We which tells the story of Canada's creation with a heavy focus on the 17th century geopolitics of Indigenous groups. And second, we've covered the so called unmarked graves social panic that began in 2021, a nationwide Canadian political frenzy that followed false reports that the bodies of 215 indigenous children had been found on the grounds of a former residential school. That social panic was so intense that it made discussion of the nuts and bolts of Indigenous policy issues quite difficult. Thankfully, as reported in Quilet in recent months, with the fifth anniversary of those false reports now past us, the apocalyptic language associated with that period seems to have receded, leaving space for intelligent mainstream debate. As you'll hear, Chihuahuatl is a relatively small and economically challenged First Nation reserve located about two hours inland in southern

[Jonathan Kay]

British Columbia along the Fraser River Valley,

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

and it doesn't get a lot of media attention compared to some of the other larger and wealthier first nations communities whose territories lie along BC's more prosperous, densely populated coast. A lot of my questions to Aaron will focus on the governance challenges that he and his band councillors face in such a small place where everyone knows everyone. We'll also talk about some of the ways in which he finds himself at odds with other first nations chiefs in regard to his political philosophy, which is less focused on the sweeping anti colonial

[Jonathan Kay]

rhetoric and postures that have become popular

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

under the prime ministerial tenure of Justin Trudeau and more focused on how to improve Indigenous communities socioeconomically. Now, Canada is a big place with more than 600 First nations communities, including a few that you'll hear me refer to and I'll mention them here so that when you hear references to them in the conversation, they won't seem to

[Jonathan Kay]

come out of left field.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

My own limited journalistic experience covering Indigenous communities is confined to communities in Quebec and Ontario in the eastern part of Canada. That includes Kasheshuan, which is a Cree community on the west side of James Bay in northern Ontario. You'll also hear me and Aaron refer to the Nischa, an Indigenous First Nation in northwestern British Columbia, which signed a landmark self governance agreement with the Canadian

[Jonathan Kay]

government 26 years ago.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

And finally, you'll hear us talk about the Wetsuweten First Nation, an inland northern B.C. first Nation whose leadership class fell into internal conflict six years ago over the issue of permitting construction of a liquefied natural gas pipeline through their territory. With that said, please enjoy my interview with Indigenous chief and podcast host Aaron Peet.

[Jonathan Kay]

Aaron Peet, welcome to the Quillette podcast.

[Aaron Peet]

Thank you very much for having me.

[Jonathan Kay]

So a couple months ago I was in bc. I was speaking at an event at UBC University of British Columbia, Okanagan, which, as you know, it's in the interior. It's in a beautiful place called Kelowna. And then if you drive from Kelowna toward the Pacific Ocean, you go through Penticton, you go south of Kamloops. And then I guess when you're about an hour, hour and a half west of Vancouver, the mountains give way to foothills along the Fraser river and things become flat. I was just looking at a map. I think I must have driven through your territory, right?

[Aaron Peet]

I believe so, yes. We're located in Hope, British Columbia, which is about two hours outside of Vancouver. And yeah, beautiful area.

[Jonathan Kay]

Could you describe for me what traditional life was like for your particular First Nation community?

[Aaron Peet]

We are considered Stolo, which means people of the river, and that's how we traveled as well as gathered food.

[Jonathan Kay]

Aside from language differences, are there significant traditional cultural differences between coastal Indigenous peoples, Salish peoples and so forth, and inland peoples in what's now British Columbia?

[Aaron Peet]

Yes. Significant differences between ourselves who are a little bit more in the interior only by a few hours by driving, and coastal first nations that are right on the water. Significant differences. Many people who think of Vancouver or Indigenous people will think of totem poles. We did not have totem poles. Those were primarily used by people on the ocean. Think of them as perhaps like a lighthouse giving direction to people who are on the water traveling so they knew where to go. We had what are called house posts, which are much smaller.

[Jonathan Kay]

And do some of those cultural differences persist to the modern era?

[Aaron Peet]

I don't think you would ever be able to tell the difference between somebody from Musqueam Nation, which is in Vancouver, and Chuathal in terms of our demeanor. You would see it in the fact that they're more economically developed. So they often are able to invest more in their culture and practices in dancing and singing and funding those types of programs. Where my community, we're just trying to rise out of poverty now. And so there's not that same focus that's been placed on culture, language, dancing and stuff like that. So we're very much in the beginning and they're very established.

[Jonathan Kay]

I got the sense as I was traveling through that part of bc, this is east of Vancouver in Ontario, we would call that cottage country. Fairly close to major population centers, but. But in a very idyllic or from my point of view, idyllic part of the province, are there not opportunities in terms of real estate, in terms of cottages, destination hotels, stuff like that?

[Aaron Peet]

Tourism is a huge part of where we live. We have not taken advantage of that. I think tourism often requires long term thinking and a lot of upfront cash. So we are working on a hotel and in Hope for people who don't know. Hope is not known for high quality accommodations, mostly all motels in Hope. And so there is this opportunity in front of us for high quality camping, for hotels and for turning Hope more into a tourist destination. You just don't have enough anchors right now, like hotels to hold people there and enough activities for them to consider spending a weekend. So Those are the two areas that need to be developed. Hope interacts with three major highways, gets about 10,000 people per day through the region on average and has a lot of people stop in for what are called the Othello Tunnels, which were developed for the railway. And a lot of history is presented there. So there's an opportunity. And we're speaking to BC Parks and others about improving opportunities for guided fishing tours, what is often called glamping for hotel accommodations, and for hosting more conferences.

[Jonathan Kay]

Am I correct that now you're kind of struggling with being flyover country between Vancouver and the Okanagan? Correct. Okay. I remember talking to council members, I think it was Kasheshwan, and they were describing to Me a life that was very bureaucratic. Like, there's this kind of stereotype that indigenous chiefs and councils, they just kind of put out their hand and Ottawa puts money in it. They were saying that, you know, when they have to build new houses, there's just an incredible amount of paperwork they have to do with, I think, what used to be called Indian Affairs. How much of your life is dedicated to doing paperwork with government officials?

[Aaron Peet]

That is the big gap that I came in to fill back in 2022, when I was voted onto council. It was really. We have reports that we're supposed to submit when we've used funding on what we used it for, how we spend the money. Those were backdated. We were about four, four years behind on our audits that needed to be caught up on. And applications, as you described, can be arduous. Like, take three people two months to fill out some of these applications. One of the major projects we've done since I joined was improve the quality of housing on reserve. So we have 89 homes within our community. We have a total of about 670 members. About half live on reserve. All of the homes, John, had mold mildew safety implications, because on federal land, which reserves are, you don't have to follow provincial building code. And so none of the homes were built to any provincial building code. So when I came in, I saw the living conditions of my people, and it was extremely concerning. So we applied to Indigenous Services Canada, which was Indian affairs, and that process. We have to get a health inspector to come in. We have to have a building inspector to come in, and then we have to get a quote from a contractor on how much it would cost to address those concerns and pile that together and then submit a bulk application of, like, 12 homes. So we've done that several times, and we've renovated about 45 of 89 of those homes, and we have about half more to go. And those are full gutten renos, about $180,000 per household in renovating their homes. So it is an arduous process. We now have to report on all of those processes. And the challenge, as you might well be aware, is you have, like, Indian residential schools, and we can debate about how bad they were, but it did result in high alcohol use rates, all of these different things. And so I come into a community where many of the people who are doing very important roles don't have any formal education into the work that they've been prescribed. And then the process of filling out government paperwork is not second nature. To them. And so that often got put back to the back burner. And so now we're cleaning a lot of those things up and have put things back together. But that's the big gap for so many communities is who's comfortable reading over a 30 page application process and filling it in to the best of their ability.

[Jonathan Kay]

This tour I did of Cree communities, kind of interesting time as this kind of before the current era where there's a big focus on, call it more ideological factors like decolonization. You know, the discussions I had were really about things like as you said, building codes are basements, safe H VAC systems, insulation, fire detectors. All the things you kind of take for granted when you get a home inspection in a place like Toronto. And one of the big problems that people were facing is because people don't own their homes in fee simple, they have less economic incentive to take preventative care, mold prevention, flood control, correct electrical wiring and stuff like that. And so a house would be built. And it was very difficult to get people to take preventative care to preserve the value of the home. I mean, essentially for simple microeconomic reasons. If you're not going to recapture the value of the home when you sell it in 20 years, it's kind of like not washing a rental car, right? Like, what's in it for me? Is that a problem you face?

[Aaron Peet]

That's certainly a factor. And when I came in, I definitely assumed that that was at least 51% of the cause as to why homes weren't maintained. I've come to move my perspective on that just in speaking to members, the biggest one I heard was Aaron. I was given this home and it was a piece of crap when I moved in. And so I've hated it since I moved in. And it's never been mine since I moved in. And so I've heard that be and I've seen people start to maintain their homes after these gutten renos because the pink color is theirs. We had hot water tanks literally right next to a wood stove. Like it was completely dangerous to begin with. The other big factor is just people were never. They didn't have parents who taught them the value of a clean home because they had trauma or they struggled with alcohol use. And so they just weren't taught how to be proud of a home. Or you live your life where everything you've ever owned is hamm me down. So you're not even proud of owning that nice shirt that you want to hang up and put nicely in the closet and stuff like that, so some of these are like more micro to your point. One of them is certainly fee simple and pride of ownership is a key piece. I mean you see that off reserve when people are renters, they don't mow the lawn, they don't maintain. So that's certainly a factor. I think I'm just a little bit more humble now seeing the other factors that contributed to it. That that isn't the whole enchilada, which I kind of went in kind of assuming that it was.

[Jonathan Kay]

There's a guy from Algonquins of Barrier Lake, which is unfortunately a particularly impoverished indigenous community on the Quebec, Ontario border. One problem he faced, so he was describing somebody in the community who was skilled carpenter and actually went away to Ottawa and learned the trades and got accredited and came back to the reserve and was just bursting with knowledge and well, here's how we have to do it. That guy had a really hard time because there was sort of this sense, fairly small community and people resented it. They were like, you went away and now you're coming back and telling us what to do. They kind of saw him as a technocrat who, who wasn't like really from the community because he'd left. They burnt his house down at one point and he wasn't in it, but he just said screw this and he left for good. I don't know how representative that is, but it sounds like sometimes people presenting technical knowledge, I don't know if you've encountered this, come up against a kind of like incumbent political idea. You're trying to take over the community and who do you think you are type thing. Use him like a young guy. Have you faced any of that?

[Aaron Peet]

Absolutely. And I have to be careful because like I was elected chief so obviously they have. I was voted, I think I came in second place when I first ran for council and then I was in my next term elected chief. So on the one hand I need to be very grateful and humble to the fact that they, despite hearing a lot of those concerns and a lot of that frustration from some, ultimately their voices didn't carry the day. But certainly my mum really doesn't visit the community all that much because that's been her whole life. She was taken in as a consequence of what's called the 60 Scoop policy, which is where indigenous children were placed in Caucasian or Christian households to help assimilate them. And that was a huge benefit for my mum. She was born with fetal alcohol syndrome disorder and her being moved out, she was left from our records and our Understanding she was left outside as a very small baby. She had both of her eardrums blown out as a consequence of being in the cold. She was taken to Cocalita Indian Hospital. The nurse that was caring for her took her in and fostered her and raised her as her own and was involved in my life until the day she died. So I have tremendous respect for that woman. Her name was Dorothy Kennett. But that means that when I did come back into community, I do have somewhat Western values innate in me because I was R.A. as a baby, as Catholic, and I went to catechism and I had these experiences. And then I came back to the community with a law degree and with a criminology degree. So there were certain people who looked at my education and oh, you think you're better than me? I wear a suit. I don't do that by accident. I do that to show my community professionalism. I believe that our leaders need to show respect to the people that they derive authority from. I also think they needed a role model to look to as, to like, hey, you're our leader. You look different than us. You don't look like everybody else. We need some differentiators at times. I think that's an important piece. I think judges wear their robes for that reason. And so I certainly got some of that. I don't think their voices carry the day because I wouldn't be chief if that was the predominant perspective. I think.

[Jonathan Kay]

How do you bring around skeptical constituencies like that? You're describing a pretty small community. You walk around, you pretty much know who everybody is and what they think of you. Like, how do you manage that? Kind of, how do you win people over?

[Aaron Peet]

The first thing I'll say that helps me a lot because I would say my community has a lot of trauma, is I don't live in community. I live off of reserve. And so I get to kind of decompress from the day.

[Jonathan Kay]

How far is that from the reserve?

[Aaron Peet]

About a 20 minute drive. So nothing significant, but enough where when I go for a walk, I'm not seeing my mem. They're not running up to me, hey, my faucet's not working properly or something like that. So I would say that that just allows me when I'm in community to really focus on my role as a leader. I also treat it like a job, like I'm accountable to you. So I've set up things like I do a chiefs report every month that gives community an update on what I'm working on. I've also started Doing what are called chief's office hours, which means members can come in.

[Jonathan Kay]

So you're more like a CEO who kind of clocks in and then goes home. Like it. Much less the kind of first among equals type person who lives in the longhouse with everybody else. Is this a common model in British Columbia among chiefs?

[Aaron Peet]

No, I don't think so. I'm probably the outlier on that front. And I'll say, like, I had to cancel like a vacation I had because we had flooding. And so, like, it's not like I get to perfectly draw my own boundaries.

[Jonathan Kay]

You're also a podcaster and a media figure and you've become fairly prominent in recent years in large part because you're just, you're intellectually curious and you interview people you disagree with. Well, I know you disagree with them because you couldn't possibly agree with everybody on your podcast since they often have diametrically opposed ideas, so it'd be arithmetically impossible.

[Aaron Peet]

The podcast is what I love most. It feeds the part of me that really enjoyed university as a place to debate ideas, to have my perspectives challenged, and to really think through what I think are some of the most important issues. Like how do I, as a chief, support very vulnerable people in having a quality of life through like say a food bank, while also not having them become hyper dependent. Like, I don't have the correct level of analysis. So being able to invite on guests who help me think this issue through is extremely helpful to my ability to be a good and humble leader and really address these issues, hopefully for the long term so that we can put that to rest so we don't have people relying on food banks into the future. How do I bring economic development? Having a certain amount of credibility and notoriety helps bring in investors because they're familiar with me and perhaps the podcast. So it's helped in those contexts and it just, it gives me enough. I think I'd be a really depressed person if I was just focused on local community issues. The podcast allows me to think bigger and zoom out a little bit as to what, what's facing our country, what's facing our province, how do we approach these things? And gives me hope when I hear from people on their perspectives on how we address these things, that these things can be addressed. And there's like minded individuals because a lot of the issues, I'll be honest, John, are really heavy. Like February was a month where I started learning about some of the issues around the abuse of children within reserves and what's taking place. And is there Being something done adequately to address this. And that was like a really heavy thing to process, that there aren't a lot of tools. This isn't something the government promotes addressing. This isn't something police forces have been trained on how to deal with on reserves. And so a lot of these issues are unresolved. And like, it can feel heavy at times to say that it's my role to address them, but it is, and I can't run from that. And so it just gives me that different space to do things that I'm passionate and curious about.

[Jonathan Kay]

A story a couple of days ago about a First nations community that I've seen stories like this from out of Quebec reserves where they just outright banished three individuals for three years. They said it wasn't specified what they had done, but they sounded like they were toxic individuals. Do you have the powers to banish people?

[Aaron Peet]

We do derive that authority from the Indian Act. It's not often used and it's highly contentious in community when it is, because often that person has a family who are extremely sympathetic to their circumstances.

[Jonathan Kay]

That must make politics so hard because I'm guessing almost anyone can play the family card. If you're being prosecuted at a criminal trial and they're picking, as you know, you went, you know criminology, you went to law school. The questions you're asked, jury selecting. I've been to jury selection a couple times. If you say, oh, yeah, I know the defendant, you're instantly excluded. The idea is that you want it to be 12 strangers, but I'm guessing when you meet with counselors to address cases that in some cases are highly personal, there's probably always going to be somebody in the room who's closely related

[Aaron Peet]

to that person almost every time. Yeah.

[Jonathan Kay]

If everybody recused themselves of being an empty room, I'm guessing. But this must make politics extremely difficult.

[Aaron Peet]

It does. It does. It helps that I think so. Like, my family is very small within Chawothal, and I did not have support when I ran for council from my family, broadly speaking, or from during my run as chief. They weren't, I think, against me, but they had no loyalty to me because I wasn't courting their vote. Because I said, I think, if I'm being honest, I think I'm the first in our community to run based on my ideas and not on my family last name. And so that placed me in a very unique position where I was like, we need to develop economically. We need to address housing.

[Jonathan Kay]

Were you a protest candidate? You were like the opposite of what they had before?

[Aaron Peet]

Yes.

[Jonathan Kay]

Okay. Because you sometimes hear about that like some 28 year old gets elected mayor of a medium sized city. A guy I went to law school with, actually Cory Booker, who's now a senator, he got elected mayor of Newark on that basis. Is that the incumbent was this old school machine politician. And so they hired a fresh face, by and large. Are people happy with what they got?

[Aaron Peet]

I hope so. I hope that's how people feel. As I said, I host like chief's hours and do reports, so I'm transparent. Like all of the information we talk about in this interview is likely on our website.

[Jonathan Kay]

This is a stereotype that's been around forever. Is that when a new chief gets elected in the first nations community, like the first thing he does is fire everybody. He installs his no good brother in law to drive the snowplow. When you became chief, was it kind of expected that you just like bring in your pals? Sounds like you didn't have a lot of pals.

[Aaron Peet]

I didn't have any pals.

[Jonathan Kay]

So I've interviewed successful indigenous leaders before and they've candidly said one problem in our community is that if you achieve a success, it could be a business success. Your relatives come forward and there's this kind of expectation of community shares in the spoils, which like has some economic basis. Like in traditional times, if, you know the Inuit, if they killed a bowhead whale, five people can't eat a bowhead whale. Like you need 500 people. So it was just food would go bad unless you shared it when you had it. And that kind of bled into the culture, into modern times where somebody gets a good job and it's like, well, you got to take care of these people. Is that something you struggle with?

[Aaron Peet]

I haven't seen that. I think there was a hopelessness in my community that was there for so long that I think people are just now realizing, like, hey, I can go make something of myself. Look at what's going on.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

On.

[Aaron Peet]

There's homes being renovated, this building is being renovated. Everything's under construction and under renovation. We're getting a new childcare project. We're doing a BC housing project with 31 new units. Like, I think there's just a sense of opportunity that we're no longer. I view a lot of communities, rural and first nations, when you're fighting over the same pie. And so there was this mindset, if this person gets something, that means I don't get something. Famine mentality, zero sum thinking. It's called many things. I Think me coming in and creating more because there was more to go around has just given people hope that they can go find more for themselves.

[Jonathan Kay]

When you see the zero sum mentality. I think it was about a month ago, I read that there was an indigenous group in B.C. that threatened violence against B.C. infrastructure because they felt that another indigenous group was being treated favorably by the government in terms of land allocation. And it was essentially like an intra Indigenous squabble that was being weaponized against the. I think you're familiar maybe with the example I'm talking about, but I found that kind of shocking. You mentioned before that you don't spend a lot of time brainstorming issues with other Indigenous chiefs, but is that part of the reason why is that they feel like if they cooperate with you, that that's just less money for them?

[Aaron Peet]

Well, and I think that that's probably true in terms of like. Right. Like the provincial government has given out, and this is not untrue, like they've given out millions of dollars, but they gave it out to the people that were first in line. And so now that there's no more money left, there's a bunch of communities who didn't see the benefit of reconciliation over the past 10 years. And that's not because there wasn't an opportunity to. It's because their chiefs and councils were focused over here when the money was over there, and they just didn't put two and two together like my community. We got very lucky when I came on, when we started our housing strategy, because now the B.C. housing projects that they were doing on reserve, the first in Canada for a province to do on reserve housing, that program is done, and I doubt it will be revived because the provincial government's broke. And so you saw a disproportionate benefit to certain communities who had good intergovernmental affairs teams, who had a team of lawyers ready to argue for treaty or argue for interest. And so communities that just did not have their eye focused on that missed out. And now the well has dried up and they're going, what did we miss? How did we miss all of this? Who do we have to get into an argument with in order to get some money?

[Jonathan Kay]

It's odd that we don't hear more about Nischka, because at the time, this is. I mean, you must have been a kid at the time.

[Aaron Peet]

No, I remember it. It was a big deal.

[Jonathan Kay]

Okay. Yeah, it was a big deal because it was a third order of government. Right. It wasn't a traditional treaty arrangement with an Indigenous group. It was creating what I think survives to this day as a third order of government. Like not the feds, not a province, but kind of something else entirely. And I think a lot of people expected that this would become a blueprint for how other indigenous groups would mature politically. I get the sense that didn't happen. What's your take on that? And I guess again, Nischa isn't in the news. I have no idea whether it's been a successful constitutional experiment. But what's your take on that?

[Aaron Peet]

I think Nischa was the last time we had rational, reasonable conversations about what self government actually looks like. The thing that gave up was their ability not to be taxed. And so it brought them in as like a municipality. And so that was a positive step because it resolved a lot of these issues. Like when we talk about, like why can't first nations get water? In part that's because their, their nation doesn't have enough tax base to pay an engineer $250,000 per year to maintain a water system that impacts a thousand people. Like, you need an income of taxation in order to do some of those things over a long term horizon. And so it was an experiment. I think it's likely where we need to go back to. But first nations have, for a very long time now, since Nischa, been able to negotiate with governments, get a lot of money, get a lot of land and not settle the title and rights question and leave those two in limbo. And that's been like, if you're a negotiator for a First Nation community, there's no way you can't say that that's not a sweet deal. Resolve nothing, get a lot. And then when you want to resolve title and rights, you can come back later for more.

[Jonathan Kay]

You're saying they've permanently given up any further land claims and they're integrated into the normal Canadian tax system, Is that what you're saying?

[Aaron Peet]

Correct. Okay, yes. And so that was the framework for what would this look like over the long term. And now I think if you bring Abnishka to any First Nation community, they'll laugh you out of the room because that's not what more recent treaties have looked like. I mean, Comox and Tsawwassan, like, they got much more bang for their buck and much less restrictions on future claims on title and rights.

[Jonathan Kay]

By the way, you mentioned Tsawwassan. I was visiting. I mentioned I was driving from the Okanagan into bc. It was to visit my friend Joel. He lives in Delta And I went to the Tsawwassen Mall. Tsawwassen Mall is pretty glamorous. I don't know if you've been there, of course, but that area close to the airport, like, that's some pretty valuable real estate. But you're telling me TWAs and First Nation, they haven't given up, permanently given up their land claims.

[Aaron Peet]

They have a treaty. So I don't know all the details of all of their treaty. They resolved a lot of that, but it still falls under that system where they have authority over most taxation rules and stuff like that. Their members aren't taxed, but they go to some of those stores. So it left a lot of that. Very different than the Nischa Agreement, which resolved a lot of that and brought in a consistent system. Like, I just interviewed Sam Cooper about what does it mean when a Chinese company is the one that purchased the lease to the Tsawasan Mall? Like, what does that. How does that interact with foreign interference? Because I've heard a lot of concerns about the CCP coming after First Nation communities and making deals because of the economic opportunity, but the opportunity to get their foothold in different regions in Canada and British Columbia.

[Jonathan Kay]

Let's talk about the issue that I think probably a lot of people tuning into this podcast maybe expected I would lead with the legacy of residential schools and in particular the unmarked graves issue. One interesting thing about talking to you is the residential schools issue is not an abstract issue for you. You have, unfortunately, personal knowledge of it through family. Most people listening to this aren't in Canada. Could you explain to people, especially from outside Canada, what residential schools were and from your perspective, the damage they did to people in the communities?

[Aaron Peet]

So the nearest one to me was St. Mary's Indian Residential School. And Catholic, I guess. Yes. My grandmother attended and she was abused most of her life in that school and came out traumatized. We only have one Haukla Malem speaker left in all of the Fraser Valley, and her story is that she went to the back of the ball field and practiced her language alone. My grandmother had a lot of children and she was harmed as a consequence of the school. She used alcohol to cope. And my mother was born with fetal alcohol syndrome disorder as a consequence of using alcohol to cope with. With the abuses she's experienced. And I've interviewed many different people who have gone to these schools who share harrowing stories of sexual abuse being beaten. I have people on my council who I've sat with who have shared harrowing stories. And it's a. It's a dark chapter. It was very commonplace. And I guess I'd be interested really quickly from you, John, because you, I think, have to balance and walk in these two worlds, as I feel like I have to. Which is, like, you meet people who have gone through it, and then I'm debating or interviewing somebody abstractly who's like, I spoke to one person one time who said it wasn't so bad. And it's like, okay. But like, almost everybody I know who went there have horrible experience. And so, like, I'm not saying that the one person they spoke to doesn't have, like, an opinion, but how do you balance this? Because you've spoken to many people on the ground, and yet you have kind of this, I would say, debate class or people who have their understanding of history who really haven't spoken to, like, the people who attended these schools.

[Jonathan Kay]

You know, I remember I was on one reserve and I was interviewing. Actually, it was. It was a band council. They were all wearing ties much like you. It was in Quebec. It was a very professionally run reserve. And one guy said to me, he says, it's very complicated to talk about because he said he was older. He was maybe 60 or 70. He said, the reason I'm wearing a suit and tie and the reason that I feel comfortable negotiating with bureaucrats and filling out forms is because I went to residential school. I learned English. Like, I said, I wouldn't be able to do that, what I do on behalf of my community, if I didn't have some of the skills I got. He said, on the other hand, because I was at residential school so much, he said, the basic skills of being a mother and father, they don't teach you in school. It's something you get by osmosis, by living with your mother and father and a teacher, you how to be a mother and father. And he said, a lot of people in the community, because they were essentially raised on a residential school, they don't know how to be a mother and father. They didn't see it. What I will say is that because of the culture war over the unmarked graves issue, one thing that's discouraging is that I know a lot of people who are conservatives. They can't walk and chew gum. So they've decided, well, if the unmarked graves don't exist, that kind of must mean that every complaint people had about residential schools is a scam. That, to me, is a tragically misguided conclusion. Unfortunately, social media and the culture war being what it is, sometimes it seems there's this centrifugal force that drives people to either residential schools were horrible, and therefore, because they were horrible, every horrible thing that you could attribute to them is true. Including unmarked graves or. Well, I don't believe unmarked graves exist. And so now I'm questioning everything, including the whole idea that residential schools are bad. You've read my articles. I try and ruthlessly segregate the two issues. I say you can walk and chew gum, you can believe that residential schools have all kinds of horrible impacts. But let's talk about these specific claims about unmarked graves. And I think that gets about half the people I'm trying to get to, but the other half are just, oh, you're buying into this residential school hoax. Unfortunately, that's why I think the unmarked graves thing has done a lot of damage. It's given an excuse to people who always wanted to dismiss the residential schools thing. It's given them the excuse they need to say, look, the New York Times lied to us. People believe the unmarked graves stuff. Certainly at the beginning I believed it and I believe that the leadership of the Kamlous First Nation believed it. But my harshest criticism is reserved for, well, for white people actually, who, like, even when it became clear that, okay, maybe we didn't understand how GPR technology works, they just kept hammering it home because, like, Justin Trudeau kind of enjoyed taking a knee and like, it became like a campaign prop in this weird morbid way. It kind of became like a plus for white politicians to do this tear drenched, maudlin shtick that I found contemptible. People were so revolted by Trudeau's schtick over that that they, like, they decided the whole residential school thing is a scam. Like, you hear a scam hoax. It's all bullshit. Like, and really is that. That's not helpful. It's not true. And you must encounter that. You maintain your composure. That must be tough.

[Aaron Peet]

I first learned and experienced this during the Wetsuweten protests because we had people in Chilliwack, like, standing in the middle of highways. And for people who don't know there was a pipeline coming through the Wet's a Wetton were against it. Just so they were protesting. And across British Columbia, people were protesting in solidarity with them. And so people were trying to drive to work and being blocked on the highway. And then we had reports, oh, like racists are all out and about because of this. And it's like, are people. Like, this is just how I think. Like, are people racist or are they inconvenienced on their drive to work, or

[Jonathan Kay]

they're driving their kids to daycare or something. Or, you know, including indigenous people who are, like, trying to make a buck 100%.

[Aaron Peet]

But then you say something that you probably shouldn't say, which is you call the person a name based on their ethnicity or their skin color.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

Get a job.

[Jonathan Kay]

Get a job.

[Aaron Peet]

Yeah, get a job. You chug, like. And then people go, well, we've got, like, an uptick in racism. And it's like, no, you have people in the middle of the road who are frustrating people. And so I've seen the unmarked graves in a similar lens, which is like, this group of people are coming out and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, this is wrong. And then on the one side, you have people just going, those people are racists. They're white supremacists. If you're asking questions about that, then you're a hateful person. And it's like, I don't trust those people. And then I speak with most of these people. Frances Widdowson, Tim Tielman. I don't agree with them, but they weren't rude to me. They weren't racist to me. The response I've received on all of those debates is just, thank you for having the conversation. Thank you for not jumping to ad hoc.

[Jonathan Kay]

Taken to task by white people, including, I think, Sean Carlton, who's this prophet. He's like a professional ally type dude. Kind of like the United States where black people get attacked by white progressives and they say, oh, you got to give back your black card or something.

[Aaron Peet]

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's blocked me. He thinks I'm platforming alt right denialists.

[Jonathan Kay]

He's kind of an extreme example. But he's not wrong that your platform, like Frances Widdowson is a strong cup of coffee. She's the one. Like, she wears sandwich boards on university campuses. Like, I think she has a lot of guts, but she is, at least in terms of her tactics, an outlier.

[Aaron Peet]

So can I ask, I actually, this is a genuine question, and I've tried to ask people about it multiple times because I think it's a valid criticism. I've spoken to Frances privately, and I don't think she'll be mad for me sharing this, but I've tried to grapple with this myself. What do we do? Like, her argument would be, I'm in this university. I'm in Alberta. I get mobbed out of my university role. Like, I get pushed out of my

[Jonathan Kay]

own university, Mount Royal University.

[Aaron Peet]

Yeah. And so I'm out on my butt. Like, I don't have this job anymore. Universities won't let me come and speak. Frances and I have talked about sharing a debate stage at a university. No one will let her in. And so she's like, what else am I to do? Like, what are my options? I can either shut up or I can force my ideas into the public square. Now, I would say overwhelmingly, Candace Malcolm's book, Frances Widdowson, Dallas Brody, they've swung the pendulum in B.C. we're not even allowed to have this conversation. And everywhere east of us, we're allowed to. And so she's pulled it into acceptable conversations. Now you can't be Frances Widowson. Like, lots of universities have reached out to me. Hey, Aaron, we'd love to speak with you. We just don't want Francis. We want to address this issue. We just. And so it's like, what are these people who were more extreme? And I might not. I would never use their tactics personally, but they use their tactics in order to force the conversation on people that conversations been forced. And now it's like, well, we want to have the conversation, but we don't want all those people who were, like, really loud and really, like, bombastic about it. And it's like, okay, but we wouldn't be having the conversation without them. And I actually don't know what the right answer is. How do we navigate people who are the first to stand up, first to take the shellackings on a tough issue? Like, what do we do with those people? Because they certainly deserve some vindication for the sacrifices they've made. I mean, Francis Widdowson's gone through enough drama for my lifetime in just the past couple of years.

[Jonathan Kay]

Yeah, the Romans had a military award, usually given out posthumously, for the first guy over the wall. That may be Frances. Frances got really mad at me because when she was appearing on all these universities, like University of Lethbridge with the sandwich board, my response was kind of condescending because I was like, what are you doing? It's tacky. That's not how it's done, dear. You're supposed to live in Toronto and make satirical barbs on Twitter, like, I do just do what I do. And I have to give her credit because. And this is often the case with people who really push the envelope on the tactics. Her biggest positive effect was in provoking an overreaction. All these universities, they had her arrested, treating her as if she were a violent criminal. And a lot of people saw that and said, okay, there's something wrong here. If a university is mobilizing its entire general counsel's office because a middle aged woman wants to come on campus and say something, that's probably true. What's going on here politically. Can I bring you back though to the Wetsuweten? Wetsuweten case is extremely interesting. And I'll just bring foreigner foreigners, foreign listeners and viewers up to speed. So you had the Wetsuweten community, their traditional lands lie on a path that as I understand is sort of a logical conduit for liquefied natural gas that's landlocked, to bring it to the coast to sell it to rich countries. And as I understand the democratically elected. This is a simplified narrative we got in the media. The democratically elected leaders of the Wetsuweten struck an agreement with the corporate powers that be and said, okay, these are our lands, but you know what? Jobs, money, development, all the things that you're interested in, they struck a deal. And then you had this other group, the hereditary leaders, who as I understand it, had a hereditary claim based on the gerontocracy that traditional communities, it's the basis of political legitimacy, this sort of parallel political track outside the democratically elected band leadership. And they said, no, no, no, we don't like this deal. And they took maybe more of an environmental, some might say sentimental approach, some might say it was very cynical because maybe it was a power grab. But what I observed, and this is, I think 2020, is that all over Canada the white people who went out and set up barricades in solidarity with the Wetsuweten, including barricades that shut down the eastern passenger rail transit system in Canada for months in Ontario, Mohawk territory, I mean like 3,000 miles away from, from British Columbia, setting up barricades on roads. And anyone who touched the barricade because they wanted to get to work was like a big racist. The whole thing was insane. But as I understand it, all of those white people who thought they were doing God's work were essentially acting in solidarity with the non legitimate government of the Wet', Suweten, the hereditary leadership. Is that, is that correct?

[Aaron Peet]

I think that's what you and I would say.

[Jonathan Kay]

Well, I'm saying it and if you're saying it, then that's good enough for me. I mean, like we're the only two people here. Is that true that there's a parallel leadership structure there?

[Aaron Peet]

There? Yes. Not in all First Nation communities, but communities do have her own.

[Jonathan Kay]

White people got duped in their mind, these Wetsuweten were these sacred Ewoks who were just minding their own business and a bunch of stormtroopers came and ran a pipeline through their territory. And that by putting up big piles of trash on the highway in Ontario you were acting in solidarity. But the legitimate leadership of the Wetsuweten actually agreed to this arrangement. How did they feel about this? I know you people don't all know each other. I realize you must have had some inkling about how legitimately elected power structure there felt about this.

[Aaron Peet]

Yes. And I guess I would say that like even within my territory there are people who are considered hereditary leaders and they do come with like a lot of respect because that's passed down. And so within the community I think Pam Palmettur this was like during my formative years I saw Pam Palmettar and Ellis Ross debating on CTV Power Play about this very issue and it shaped how I thought about.

[Jonathan Kay]

Pam Palmter is or was a professorial indigenous academic and activist.

[Aaron Peet]

So she would say that that's the traditional form of government that was taken away.

[Jonathan Kay]

Easier for her to say. She's in Toronto half the time. People pronouncing on these issues live next door to me. I see them shopping at the Eaton Centre. It strikes me that there's a lot of people on TV who claim to be speaking for indigenous issues who maybe, you know, don't have that much connection with some of these issues.

[Aaron Peet]

They won't speak with me. This is the probably like I just interviewed Pierre Poliev. I can't get on left leaning people to save my life. Even though they're people I'm interested in understanding how they arrive at these perspectives. Sean Carlton won't come on. Pam Palmetto won't come on. I'd be fascinated to hear their version and how I'm falling short and what they think I need to be doing different. They won't speak with me. I can only get like Frances Widderson. I could call her right now and get her on the podcast like she would have no issue. And that's, I think one of the deepest things I'm frustrated by is I want to engage people across the spectrum because I think there are bits from each camp that we can put something together and make something uniquely Canadian. And half of the perspective is very resistant to having their ideas challenged.

[Jonathan Kay]

The assembly of first nations, which is national scale indigenous lobby group which as I understand lobbies for the prerogatives of chief and council. I'm guessing they have a national plenary. I'm Guessing you don't go, but if you went there, how would you be treated?

[Aaron Peet]

Oh, that's an interesting question. For a lot of these people, it's still that famine mentality. And they look at government as the source of all of their income and all of their funding sources. And so there's very much like whatever they say and whatever fits within party lines is what we're going to encourage in order to keep things working for us.

[Jonathan Kay]

But Aaron, even according to that metric, I mean, you're pretty good at shaking the tree. You got a lot of new funding for your community.

[Aaron Peet]

I work very well with governments and with people across the political aisle.

[Jonathan Kay]

Even on that basis, aren't they interested in talking to you about strategies?

[Aaron Peet]

Oh, I guess that would assume that most people who are in elected positions are focused on the betterment of their community's well being. And I don't think that that's. I've long said this. There are two tracks. There are the rights and title people and there are the socioeconomic leaders. And I'm a socioeconomic leader. Like I care about, like, people not being born in abject poverty, not being born in a house with mold mildew. There are people who only care about whether or not they get more land and more rights and more power over how a stream is controlled, how a river is controlled. That's just not my thing.

[Jonathan Kay]

What's not your thing is very much the thing of CBC producers. It's more romantic. Right? The socioeconomic betterment program you're talking about. I don't think there's a hashtag for it. Right?

[Aaron Peet]

No. And I've never been invited on cbc, Global, CTV to comment on really ever.

[Jonathan Kay]

That's crazy. Well, you know, I'm sure now that you've been on a Coleb podcast, that's gonna change because.

[Aaron Peet]

Yeah, this is my big brain. Okay, John, thank you for bringing that adult in the room energy. I don't think I've heard any other journalist bring the level of analysis about First Nation communities. I mean, you're spot on on a lot of your points about how our governments work and how family politics can immediately rise into really important political conversations about how do we address crime in community and stuff. And when it's your cousin who committed the crime, like that will influence how they think about it. So kudos to you for really taking this topic seriously and not getting into the I think slop that's starting to take over this type of discussion.

[Jonathan Kay]

Well, it's the first time I've been accused of being a functional adult. I'm gonna have to edit that out because it's bad for my reputation, but thanks so much.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

Thank you for listening to the Quillette Podcast.

[Jonathan Kay]

If you like what you heard, please Visit [e-mail] the site where free thought lives. For essays, news and more podcasts. Sign up for our newsletter and become a [e-mail] that's Q, U, I, double L, E, double T, E dot com.