**Podcast Summary: Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra
Episode: Bonus Episode: Rachel Maddow in Conversation with Tony Kushner
Release Date: July 1, 2024
Introduction
In this special bonus episode of “Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra”, host Rachel Maddow sits down with the esteemed Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright and screenwriter, Tony Kushner. The conversation delves deep into the themes of the first season of Ultra, exploring the rise of authoritarian movements in American politics and drawing parallels with historical events.
Origins and Motivation
Rachel Maddow begins by expressing her admiration for Tony Kushner, highlighting his intellectual prowess and storytelling abilities. She shares her excitement about their collaboration on a screenplay for Steven Spielberg, based on Ultra. Maddow explains her interest in exploring the resurgence of fascist ideologies in modern American politics, particularly in the context of Holocaust denial and its unexpected rise during Trump’s administration.
Rachel Maddow [00:54]: “I recently got to sit down with the legendary Tony Kushner... It is something I'm quite excited about.”
Historical Context of Fascism in America
The discussion shifts to the historical roots of fascism in the United States, focusing on figures like Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh, who played pivotal roles in promoting anti-Semitic and fascist ideologies. Maddow recounts Ford’s dissemination of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion through his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent, and its influence on Adolf Hitler.
Rachel Maddow [06:15]: “The German edition of Ford’s book had landed in the hands of one particularly gifted propagandist... Hitler regarded Henry Ford as his inspiration.”
The Sedition Trials and Government Complicity
Maddow and Kushner delve into the 1944 sedition trials, where American fascists were put on trial for their collaboration with Nazi Germany. Maddow reveals how the Justice Department mishandled the case, leading to a mistrial when the presiding judge died. This suppression of evidence resulted in many defendants escaping conviction, further embedding fascist ideologies in American society.
Rachel Maddow [35:00]: “The Justice Department decided to bring a sedition case in 1942... The case ended in a mistrial when the judge died before a verdict was reached.”
The Link Between Fascism and Civil Rights Oppression
Kushner highlights the disturbing connection between historical fascist movements and the modern anti-civil rights movement. He points out how principles of eugenics and racial pseudoscience, which were once foundational to Nazi laws, were repurposed in the United States to uphold segregationist policies.
Tony Kushner [45:24]: “The Nazis came to us for the basis for writing their Nuremberg laws. Americans were pioneers in eugenics just as much as any European country.”
Democracy Under Siege
Maddow and Kushner discuss the fragile state of democracy in the face of rising authoritarianism. They reference Robert Paxton’s framework on the phases of fascism, emphasizing how democracies can gradually erode their own institutions from within, leading to the consolidation of power by authoritarian leaders.
Rachel Maddow [62:44]: “Democracy doesn't defend itself. It's made up of human beings, including us. When it's under attack and abused within the system, that abuse is its undoing.”
The Role of the Press and Media Responsibility
The conversation turns to the media’s role in either combating or inadvertently facilitating the rise of authoritarian movements. Maddow critiques the mainstream press for attempting to maintain “balance” by giving undue attention to extremist voices, thereby normalizing their presence and undermining democratic discourse.
Rachel Maddow [77:20]: “The press needs to recalibrate what it means to be balanced... I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you can appease your way to a fairer balance.”
Strategies for Preserving Democracy
In addressing how to safeguard democracy, Maddow emphasizes the importance of human connections and personal relationships in countering divisive and dehumanizing rhetoric. She advocates for engaging with individuals on a personal level to foster understanding and reduce susceptibility to extremist propaganda.
Rachel Maddow [81:56]: “You can be a human being to them... Knowing different types of people and communicating with people at a human level is very powerful and creates resistance to mass violence.”
Notable Quotes
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Rachel Maddow [30:28]: “Using a legal term to describe the government's abandonment of the earlier sedition charges, Raggi then railed at the Civic no man's land, into which his evidence was falling.”
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Tony Kushner [73:06]: “I mean, I have 600 other questions to ask you, but I'm not going to do that. But I'm going to squeeze in one more question, and then we'll take questions from the audience.”
Conclusion
The episode concludes with heartfelt acknowledgments of each other's work and the profound impact of storytelling in understanding and combating authoritarianism. Maddow and Kushner reiterate the necessity of vigilance and active participation in preserving democratic institutions against rising anti-democratic forces.
Tony Kushner [85:40]: “I am in awe of your gifts as a storyteller... We always arrive. And this is the mark of a real storyteller, of genius.”
Final Remarks:
This bonus episode serves as a compelling exploration of the historical and present-day threats to American democracy. Through the insightful dialogue between Rachel Maddow and Tony Kushner, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the undercurrents that fuel authoritarian movements and the critical importance of safeguarding democratic principles.
For more in-depth discussions and episodes, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access and ad-free listening to both seasons of Ultra.